Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Right now, I can ruin the experience of entire groups solo, simply by using crowd control mechanics like mezz, stun, and other forms of lockdown. And I’m not theorizing I actually do it, easily. What I’m pointing out is that a small group of players can negatively affect the experience of the majority.
PvE is based on managing mob packs. So imagine if you’re actually playing the game what it looks like if corruption is made even more forgiving or removed altogether. How are players supposed to enjoy zones like the Church, HH, Sephilion, or the Citadel when groups get ambushed while fighting 5–6 mobs? It leads to nonstop wipes.
Today, if you want to engage a meaningful named boss, there are two options: either you’re in a big guild, or it’s simply not for you. And if you say otherwise, it likely means you’re not doing any, or you’re part of one of those dominant guilds.
You can’t design a game with difficult, punishing, and meaningful PvE, while letting other players come ruin the experience for others without consequences. The only game I’ve seen with a system like this was Age of Conan. And strangely enough, the PvP server quickly stopped functioning in favor of PvE.
Of course, there will always be those who say: “If you don’t like it, go play something else.” But let’s be realistic Intrepid has over 250 salaries to pay each month, and player retention right now is abysmal. I’ve been playing since October, and I’ve personally seen large guilds monopolize content, drive players away, and cause entire guilds to leave. Add to that a game still in development that’s not always fun, and you get servers nearly empty just two months after launch.
I’ve been playing MMOs for 27 years. And to me, killing someone already tanking 5 to 7 mobs? That’s not PvP. That just proves the system doesn’t work. And I’m sure some people enjoy it only because it gives them a feeling of power they don’t have anywhere else.
But if the devs continue to build this game for a minority at the expense of the broader community, they shouldn’t be surprised when financial reality catches up to them.
Also, the type of PvE matters just as much, if not more, when it comes to 'how difficult it is to kill off a group fighting a boss'. This also applies to certain designs of 'packs' in terms of mob fighting.
I'd be more worried about Ashes falling into the trap of having too few areas with appropriately challenging mobs, but 'appropriately' matters by player skill, so that's really a question of 'insufficient content variety for very skilled players'.
Except that even though Steven has sorta 'rolled back' some of our expectations on PvE challenge, he hasn't mentioned any need to temper our expectations about PvE dynamism.
tl;dr if you can ruin the experience of entire groups solo, it's probably not intended
In one regard i must agree. Even while Ashes of Creation shall never change in the Core Mechanics as what it is intended to be,
maybe after the Game is released and finished -> Sir Steven and his mighty Team can add a few more Game Mechanics to the Game that will appeal towards others also instead of only the Hardcore-Guilds for example.
SOOOOOOOOOOO many People will suffer (lol) - and why ? Because they are not so much Teamplayers and more like Solo Players.
And if they want to actually get somewhere, they would need to succumb to the Game's intended Mechanics and play like a Madman in a Guild to support it. At least this is my Expression.
But who knows ? Maybe besides all of that, there will be things which they can easily to solo. And with that i mean a little bit more than just farm a few Zones in the Riverlands in Phase One.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
An example of that is for melee attacks there were obnoxious yellow swooshes after every swing that cluttered your screen. Another is for Ranger their auto attacks sounded like the old nerf football whistler screeching on every attack.
Tab target combat always feel floaty. It is more anchored than most tab combat games though.
I want action combat, but if the goal is to make a game for all, that necessitates tab-target combat.
This game is not meant for me.
But honestly, this isn’t really about Steven. It’s a loud minority of the community cherry-picking lines and pretending they reflect the whole picture — when they’re ignoring everything else he said, especially the parts aimed at more casual players.
Like, the other day he said “embrace the suck,” and now people are screaming “EVEN STEVEN SAYS THE GAME SUCKS,” when that’s not what he meant at all. He was saying this is still alpha. It’s not perfect, and that’s okay. Embrace the rough imperfections. That’s part of the process.
The whole “not for everyone” thing? I remember hearing that in TheLazyPeon’s video a few months back. ~13 minutes in, Steven was talking about the different alpha phases. Phases 1 and 2 are all about systems, performance, stability, optimization — boring but necessary stuff. Phase 3 is where more "casual friendly" content drops: balance, quests, solo play.
This game will be geared towards a hardcore crowd; he's setting that expectation. I'm in a season of my life where my kids' homework takes priority over logging in. The rest of the gaming community shouldn't have to cater to the casuals because of my priorities. Instead, I can have fun and enjoy it -- continue giving feedback and help Intrepid elevate the game despite my perspective and personal priorities. I've been impressed by all of the feedback you've written, so I hope you choose the same.
Ashes won't change in it's Core-Mechanic at all. But "WILL" have additional Contents for Players not that suited for the Core-Mechanics.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
I was hoping to find more structured systems, PvP zones or content, and mechanics, even imperfect ones, that reward risk-taking and make it engaging. Something, at least, that could hint at a future compelling enough to hold my interest. But that’s not the case.
I wish you the best in making it work by launch.
Been on a break since January. Grind. Professions not fun at all. Distances too far for grouping. Not solo-friendly. Mob drops didn't provide the dopamine I need. Inventory management sucks balls. Plus it's just so lame to have inventory inaccessible at nodes across the map, especially when it took 20 minutes to get to a different node, which just added to the list of many many reasons why professions suck so badly. And that was with only a handful of nodes. Imagine what it will be like when the map is 10x and there are like 90 nodes (I don't remember the exact number and don't care).
But I am still a believer that "it's an alpha," and hopeful that they will work it out. I'll be back for beta for sure, maybe sooner to try summoner. Summoner is probably my only hope. And I need more solo-friendly and casual-friendly content and systems. Period. Otherwise, the game "isn't for me" and the tards who have been telling everyone that for the past 8 years can have fun for a couple years with their struggling game. I mean, this could be the biggest game ever, with plenty of hardcore content, but it needs to be a thriving company for that to be sustainable, which means broader appeal.
In 2017 when I started following Ashes I was all about being more hardcore. Now I'm much older. By the time this game gets to beta I'll be old AF. My son was 9 when I started following Ashes and he's going to college next year lmao.
Anyway, I like Steven and find him as genuine. I think reality will catch up with him and the game will shift toward broader appeal. I hope so. I'm not abandoning it yet and really hope it develops into a fun game. Fun. That's the key.
Maybe the "it's not for everyone" could hurt overall pre-sales. Maybe not. I think Steven is just trying to be as open as possible, and the truth is, is the game isn't for everyone. BG3 isn't for everyone. I love CRPGS and a coop on top of the depth was awesome. But no matter how good it is I can't get some friends to play it even if I bought it for them. They just don't like those games. Most gamers are going to know if it's for them or not, eventually at least. It's still really earlier. I see the "we're not for everyone" as a drawing of a line in the sand. They're not going to try to please every group of players, they're focusing on their take on pvx. A sure way to piss everyone off is to try to please everyone. No game can be for everyone.
I'm really confused about the statement "limiting itself before launch.". What's being limited here? We're still about two years from launch, maybe a little less if we're lucky. They're in full scale development mode, not advertising. The games not complete, there are systems and assets not even in the game lol, of course it feels limited.
Sub vs no sub model debate. In my experience sub games are better and last longer, being sub helps keep the team away from p2w bs in cash shops. To each their own, so people hate subs. To me I'd paid more than 15 a month for a premium mmorpg. Other's wouldn't. I don't know what success is to Steven, but he's not worried about the money as far I can tell. I assume success to him is going to be a couple healthy realms mostly full of players exploring the game and fighting it out over resources. There'll need to be updates to keep people interested. Playing any game that relies on the players to make the content dies fast.
To me when I head "it's not for everyone". It means they aren't pandering to people to buy in for their money. They're sticking to their principals and vision. It's a good thing.
I'm not sure what you expect from the game. It's not supposed to be like anything else out there, so I've just taken the position to expect the unexpected and hope I'm pleased with it. Are they losing some sells by their choice of words, yes, but are they gaining some, yes, which is more? Are they making a niche game? Probably. Will it be successful? Probably. Still too early to tell on much of it. Right now the game is in alpha and it's a heavy grind through broken, unfinished, and placeholder systems if it's fun great, if not, well fun isn't the target right now, just needs to work. I wouldn't judge the release version by what you see today or even in a year.
There just isn't the same workload in maintaining an MMORPG and making post launch content as there is in making the game in the first place.
Some companies move them on to other games, some just end their employment.
Ohh i REALLY hope Intrepid will keep more People in the Team. Because it is apparently not thaaat huge a Team to begin with.
Plus they could immediately go and work on Expansions and new Content in general.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
This is going to sound really bad - even more so when you consider I know some of these people.
I hope they don't.
When EQ2 went live, SoE ran with two teams of developers, one would be creating the next expansion, and the other would be working on the live game. Then when the expansion came out, those teams would swap over, so the team that worked on the expansion were also working on live updates to the game while their work was the games current content. They would also then pitch ideas for the following expansion, ready for when they rotated again.
With this model, EQ2 was able to put out a full expansion (WoW sized) every year.
Doing this required about 12% of the game developers that were employeed to actually build the game to begin with.
The thing with Ashes is - it can't really handle new content at that rate. Players would freak out. You can't just double the size of the game world within 2 years of launch in a PvP based game.
Then you have the fact that post launch content in Ashes is not going to be charged for - where as EQ2's expansions sold for as much as $120 back in the mid 2000's (I recall one having a $200 variant).
When the gmae is launched, all initial bugs are ironed out and all promised content that wasn't ready for launch day has been added, Intrepid need to scale their development team down to fit the cadence of new content that they feel the game and it's players can handle.
I would much rather they base their decision here on what is best for the game - and I am absolutely sure that is what they will be (it is what every game developer does).
There's a decent chance that this is naive, and the best chance Intrepid has to stay operational after launch without overwhelming the player base is by scaling their costs down and mostly working on maintenance aside from some (potentially big) content updates over the years.
But the topic of this thread has basically been: "How can Intrepid consolidate its large aspirations with its niche target audience?" - then this is the only potential answer. Appeal to the niche, but also make the niche so amazing that more normies find their way into it.
The main reason is that you need to attract subscriptions to warrant that money (many subscriptions), and adding in more variations of what state a node could be in isn't going to really do that. Most players will look at the content they have to play, not the variations on that content that they can't play.
If Intrepid task their development team post launch to making more variations of node states, they will spend a lot of time creating content that will never be seen on any server.
What this design paradigm has as a strength is that it means people that are playing the game will see the content change up over time, so the game will be slightly different (on a scale measured in months though). This could well have the effect of keeping the people that would leave the game after 6 - 12 months in the game a little longer, another 6 months or so. I do think Ashes will see a delay on it's second population drop off in relation to most other MMORPG's (first dropoff is month 2 and 3, second is usually around month 6)
It won't attract new people to the game though.
In regards to your last comment, BG3 paved the way for how to make a niche game appeal to a much wider audience than the niche it is from would suggest it could appeal to.
That path is to first make your game the best possible example of the niche genre, without tricks or gimmicks, without being too flashy, just doing every aspect of that niche as well as it can be done. Then, the second step, is to make the game that you have just created accessable to everyone - you spend time identifying the barriers that the genre and your game have, and you knock them down.
Ashes isn't even attempting to do that first step. It is trying to add in too much to the basic formula, it is trying to be a new thing rather than the best example of the existing thing. Intrepid would need to drop nodes, castles, caravans, sieges and naval content, then focus on making the PvP experience essentially perfectly balanced so that those that lose aren't at too much of a perpetual disadvantage vs those that win.
That isn't Ashes at this point, and that is only the first step. An attempt at the second step would add 2 or 3 years to this games beta testing, which I don't think will happen either.
No MMORPG is going to break through that open world PvP MMORPG niche barrier with someone in charge of development that has never led multiple MMORPG's all through development, and on to full release before, let alone someone that has never worked on an MMORPG before.
There is zero chance of this game breaking through that niche.
It honestly isn't even worth discussing, imo.
I agree you need to make enough money to attract the talent to make the great things that will attract and keep the players. I don't know if there is a talent drain happening. I can tell you I looked up the salaries they're paying a few months ago and it's not much, especially for San Diego.
I might have missed your point on why the game might not last, but I do agree it's possible. But I think exploits, RMT, hackers will be their largest challenge. With the game leaning so heavy into competitive play people will use everyone advantage they can get. And I think enough will chance it to get ahead. Cracking down hard on cheating has the effect of making cheating even more valuable. I don't think a sub model is a large barrier, the most successful MMOs use them, but just having one doesn't mean you're successful.
What would be success to you? A player count? Specific ROI? I guess I'd say success is that if it runs for at least as long as it was in active development for. But there are different stages of development so that might not be always fair.
People hate me for saying this, but to me, success would be one fully populated server and Intrepid being able to afford a small, sustainable team to maintain and update the game.
If they leaned further into the sandbox side rather than sandpark, they'd benefit from more evergreen content and less reliance on constant story updates or raid tiers. The strength of sandbox MMOs is that players are the content. There's no seasonal need to invent a new “big bad” that ends up forgotten a year later.
I don’t think the size of Intrepid’s team is what determines success. If, in the end, Steven is running the game solo from his basement but the servers are full and players are having fun, that still counts as a win to me.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.