📝 Dev Discussion - Archetype Vibe Check

Dev Discussions are an opportunity to join in on player discussions about topics that Intrepid Studios want to hear your thoughts on. This is less about asking us questions, and more about us asking YOU the questions! If you do have questions about Ashes of Creation, keep an eye our social media channels for our monthly Q&A thread, check out the Ashes of Creation community wiki, or try the #questions channel in Discord!

In this thread, we’ll be discussing:

Dev Discussion - Archetype Vibe Check

The team would like to gather comprehensive sentiment on archetypes as they currently exist. Nothing is in the final state, as we’re always looking to refine and make improvements to systems during Alpha Two. While fine-tuning balance will be a main focus of later testing phases, we still want to hear your thoughts on what can be improved regarding archetypes!

We’d love your thoughts on:

Which archetype do you find the most fun to play? Why?
Which archetype do you find the least fun to play? Why?
Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.
During group combat or grinding sessions, do you feel any core features or gameplay elements are missing or underdeveloped? If yes, please describe.

Don’t feel limited to the thought-starters above. Feel free to drop whatever feedback you have regarding your experiences with archetypes below 👇

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Veeshan

Rangers play/feel like your playing a mage class not a ranger type class

SonicXplosion

Class Resource = Divine Power, Courage, Advantage, etc
Class Mechanic = Sagas, Traps, Elemental Empowerment

Which archetype do you find the most fun to play? Why?
I think Bard, Rogue, and Fighter are the archetypes that present the most fun gameplay.

I think the kits of the Bard and Rogue are the most cohesive, with many of the spells having interactions within its own kit. Both Bard and Rogue also have solid fantasy pillars that they are built around, with Bards having Songs, Dances, and Melodies, and Rogue having Traps, Mobility, and Ailments such as bleed/poison. Additionally, both Rogue and Bards have fun class mechanics with Traps and Sagas.

Fighter on the other hand, is lacking in the diversity of its fantasy, but makes up for it with the fluidity of its kit, which gives it an edge over the other archetypes.

Which archetype do you find the least fun to play? Why?
I think Tank, Cleric, Mage, and Ranger are all lacking when it comes to class mechanics that are comparable to Sagas or Advantage/Traps (or they just have none at all).

Mage has fantasy pillars to some extent (Fire/Ice/Lightning), however, it does not feel like you get enough vertical power for these fantasies to meet players expectations. A lot of players want to be an Ice Mage, or a Fire Mage, however, only 3-4 abilities exist for each element, and players are pushed to use all the elements, which dilutes the fantasy. I also think the Mage is lacking a fun class mechanic.

Cleric feels very 1 dimensional. The skills are mostly just holy healing spells. I think it needs more diversity, such as including unholy spells, and perhaps a class mechanic/resource that responds to holy/unholy elements of the kit.

Tank has a lot of problems. Its kit feels the least cohesive out of all archetypes. Its identity gets eroded from the universal skills (primarily active block). Its class resource feels very bland, and it really does not have any class mechanic. Players should be able to achieve the class fantasy of block tank, mitigation tank, evasion tank, etc through their choice of abilities. The abilities should also have more interactions within the kit, and there should be a larger diversity of status conditions rather than just trips or staggers.

Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.

Universal skills feel like system bloat to the combat system. I would rather these abilities get fragmented and tuned for each archetype individually.

Weapon skill trees are very boring currently, with most weapons just providing the same options.

Many class resources feel copy/pasted across the different archetypes. Courage, Divine Power, and Momentum just feel like simple builder/spender resources that give some stat increases. Its ok to have this type of resource for 1 archetype, but when almost half of the archetypes have it, its a bit boring. Advantage is more interesting.

tl;dr:
Rogue = good
Bard = good
Fighter = improve skill diversity
Mage = create class resource, revamp class mechanic to allow for vertical element gameplay
Cleric = revamp class resource, create class mechanic, add unholy abilities
Tank = revamp class resource, create class mechanic, add inter-archetype interactions, diversify status conditions/CC-types, design the kit around fantasy pillars

Systems = remove universal skills/stamina and send these back to individual archetypes. revamp weapon skills to be more diverse.

Luketwo

Rogue feels AMAZING, also most excited for Summoner.

SchadDad

I'm in the summoner waiting room. I've always enjoyed minion master types in games, and if the execution matches the vision laid out originally, it's hands down going to be my favorite iteration.

FluffyRad

Well might be surprising to some, but I play tank only.
I like the playstyle so far but hoping for skill tree total rework that will allow me to spend points in mine own build. Give tanks possibility to throw 3 hooks at once kind of like barbarian in d3 and that will be even more fun. I love controling monsters for my team (and even ended up playing soccer with my friend as bard in Sephillion, while hunting).

Can't wait to test classes for tank in future, I will probably have multiple different tank characters

Mistiti

I'm a support player.
First time I play bard I say "yea nice, I just hope they will make the possibility to play it with physical (like iss enchanter)"

Then you add the skill with 45s reuse who boost the song power... I'm not ig to push 1 bouton every 45..i want help with somethings else.

So now I play mage and wait for summoner.

Gaul_

-Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.

As a tank, Active block (Guard) is not fun. It slows down gameplay to a crawl, since you cannot do anything else while Guarding. I recommend removing Guard as a universal ability entirely and returning that element of class identity to the tank class in the form of a classic rotational ability that greatly buffs block chance. Another interesting option would be to let specific Tank abilities (like shouts and certain 1-handed attacks) be useable while Guard is up.

Azhrei

Which archetype do you find the most fun to play?
Tank. I was born a tank. I’ll always be a tank. Why?
Ideally, a tank is a bastion of battlefield control. Be it via tempo or flow.

I have a love/hate relationship with Tank in AoC. On paper, it should be a gravity well of pain for players and mobs. In reality, it’s more of a speed bump. In large scale pve, there doesn’t seem to be a reason to bring more than 1-2. In large scale PvP, there is even less reason. Aside from specific abilities (LONG LIVE WALL!), there is not much a tank brings to the group. I’ve seen static groups opt for just more damage over the threat a tank brings. I still remember a node siege test and the shot caller put tanks slightly above fighter. Unlike mages, bards, or clerics; a tank doesn’t bring as much to the table.

I really wish they would. Tanks are amazing.

Which archetype do you find the least fun to play? Why?
Cleric. A cleric plays healthbar whack a mole. A useful role, just not one I find engaging because you spend more time herding cats than playing the game. At least with bards, you have passive abilities that can help. If I can run a cleric more the way a bard does; I would be more involved.

Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.

2 things:
1: weapon skill trees are very basic. I get the intent and I am sure there is future iteration. Right now, it’s very placeholdery. There is not much reason to pick one weapon over the other.
2: tanking options. Currently, there is not much diversity in tanking styles. Whether you use shield/1h or 2h is about what you get. There’s not a lot for evasive tanking or for a damage tank. Low level tanking is harder because you, normally, lack gear. Once you get levels and gear you’re rewarded with less engaging game play because you’re harder to kill.

During group combat or grinding sessions, do you feel any core features or gameplay elements are missing or underdeveloped? If yes, please describe.

The closest I see missing is adaptive mobs mechanics in dungeons. Mobs do not adapt. They’re simple. That could be the intent. When doing open dungeons or pocket dungeons the mobs happily march to their dooms. I thought I read that there was a design intent to create mob environments that adapt to our successes/failures. Along that, I’m not seeing many dynamic events out in the real world. I’ve seen some events spawn, but they seem more timed than dynamic.

SpyMask

Rogue main, barred changes will remain so.

Can't play bard nor warrior. Bard requires too much skill switching, warrior requires stance switching, both of which I loathe.

I would love it if we could get momentum back on the rogue dash, and also if we could replace the mandatory selection of poison in the skill for an unlockable poisons skill that allowed the use of all poison types, or even to have itemized poisons instead, and make alchemy have a skill tree for poisons which is something I always dreamed about in WoW.

Group combat varies depending on the size of the group. Small scale (group v. group) it's quite enjoyable and relatively easy to find your role and mission, like getting rid of clerics or rangers, or enemy rogues.

Big scale (Raid v Raid and bigger) it's considerably harder. Any well coordinated group will typically focus you faster than you can get rid of a single target, due to the high amount of AoE heals, and at that point your effectiveness wanes and you must focus on diversion tactics with AoE kick trips, smokes and caltrops, focusing on being a catalyst for a coordinated group charge.

All of the above to say, is that while the rogue excels in small scale combat, it is much harder to perform in bigger settings, which could hurt it's viability long term.

In grind sessions rogue feels good enough with poison and bleed cleaves, it is quite effective against three star enemies, but against smaller targets it can feel lackluster as your biggest AoE damage sources are dots, which don't really matter against small targets, so maybe some work on it's base AoE abilities could make them feel better to use.

Desarko

Played and liked the most - Fighter
I'm probably biased here since the traditional greatsword/heavy armor is something i very much enjoy. I like the various tools that fighter has that lets them gap close and deal consistent damage.

Played and disliked - Tank
I don't really feel like I have much impact as a tank, I am capable of soaking up some damage, as well as taking some aggro. But I can't really do anything well in that regard. I feel like this wouldn't be as bad if i was able to choose to either go full tank, full aggro, damage, or a little in between. In its current state it feels unintended.

Combat feels very disconnected, its hard to explain but i'm feels like there are almost "stages" to the game. Sometimes i'm traversing somewhere. Then I finish that, I get to an area to gring and every engagement is the same in that I run up > do my combos > kill > repeat. Once i'm done or had enough, I go back to my traversing "stage". Nothing is really happening in between or during these "stages".
There is very little reason to want to change my positioning, fall back, making space etc. An MMO where I thought this was very well done was the likes of Guild Wars 2. Combat was always about movement, just using your skills typically forced your character to move a short distance while also causing damage to the enemy('s). Overall it felt very smooth and combat encounters bled into the movement and traversal of the world.

Additionally I think Ashes could really improve on the formula, a big issue that Guild wars 2 had was the vast majority of enemies would just run at a static speed towards you. Having a variety of npc speeds and even tatics for movement could really add a lot of dynamic behaviour to the game. even breaking it down into broad strokes like "beast characters move fast and will try arc around you" vs "giant's will slowly lumber towards you in a straight line". This also allows you to mix and match behaviours to give a breadth of potential encounter situations that can be put across the world.

Group combat and grinding sessions are very much the same. But they feel even more robotic. They are a bit more interesting due to the friction of having to compete with other players for spots but overall it just feels completely static. There are some situations where depending on your class and the consistency of your party. You could reliably set up an macro to loop through your combo and just not move or even be at the computer. Which I don't feel is very good design or even intended.

Additionally every class having the exact same animations and skills for weapons doesn't feel very good, not only from the immersion angle where a physically weak mage swings a the same speed and precision as a fighter, but also that a lot of weapon skills overlap a LOT with what each class would pick if they use that weapon.
Personally I do like the idea of every class being able to use each weapon, even if they aren't good at it. But right now i feel like it isn't in a good state. I'm not sure what the solution is but I know that when I do pick up any weapon right now, I don't feel like it has any "identity". If that makes sense.

bluedragon0980

Which archetype do you find the most fun to play? Why?
1. I enjoy playing cleric. reasoning i like the ability to heal as i go and the party side i enjoy healing members.

Which archetype do you find the least fun to play? Why?
1. Tank: the active guard system is good to a point. however the tank must be able to hold aggro while active tanking which is very difficult to do with the current skills available. Threat management is primary for tanking. When a tank taunts the mob should not pull away from the tank in first couple of hits even if a party member crits.
Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.
The weapon / class / other skill trees are in need of development / refinement. The skills and class kits should allow for customization for the primary role for instance Tank should have initial skill into chain pull or a shield throw. the shield bash should be a seperate skill.
For Cleric there should be a skills for party / single target and skills for raid wide.

During group combat or grinding sessions, do you feel any core features or gameplay elements are missing or underdeveloped? If yes, please describe.
There are several skills that need to be addressed for uptime as well as cast time for cleric.

Yjovain

Which archetype do you find the most fun to play? Why?
I have been playing Bard exclusively since Phase 1 start, easily have several thousand hours in the class. I would say its the most dynamic class that balances defensive abilities vs offensive abilities. Its overall very fun to play, especially as a support player. I think its fun because you are rewarded the most of any class for optimal positioning in small and large GVG fights. The utility the class brings to fights is also rewarding, having an answer to most other classes abilities is nice.

Which archetype do you find the least fun to play? Why?
N/A - Only have played Bard.

Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain..

Bard's tooling to provide mana in large scale fights, discussed below.

During group combat or grinding sessions, do you feel any core features or gameplay elements are missing or underdeveloped? If yes, please describe.

Bard has a glaring gap in its tooling, specifically to providing mana in mid-large scale PvP fights. ST Hymn of the mind, and pensive melody passive ticks/resonance are not enough for medium/long duration fights. This often times leads to Clerics/Rangers/Tanks, and eventually the whole raid, running out of mana.

My suggestion would be either to:
1) Add an ability, either AOE or ST, which would allow for bards to provide XX-XX% to targeted friendly players. This could either be a chain casted ability (similar to resplendent beam if charged or more so like consecrating wave if more skill shot based). Or static "circle" on the ground where players must stand in.
2) 3-4x the passive mana given from pensive melody.
3) Change the The Silent Pantheon Saga.

The Silent Pantheon Saga, is useful strictly in PvE/World bosses as you are easily able to build/spend stacks to keep your party topped with Mana. You can keep a group topped without this saga from 15-25, but its easier to use.

If this were to be changed, I strongly agree that everyone would be having more fun in any duration/size of PvP fight, as mana would be less of an issue.

Nehelion

I don't believe there has been much balancing done for any of the archetypes and I guess that is to be expected so early in development

I play primarily Mage and if we were to compare this to a Rock, Paper, Scissors game Mage would be Pencil which loses to all three. Almost all other Archetypes have some form of Sustainability except for Mage, it's either Run away or get Killed, or show up with other people and hope you don't get targeted, and that Mage Barrier thing doesn't seem to do much for actual protection

From my perspective it seems like development follows a sort of Gatcha game process where whenever a new class is released it immediately is the strongest class until all the stats are dumbed down to make it into a limp noodle class like all the others and that is to be expected with the release of Summoner, it will be released being overpowered and then downscaled to 40% of its strength.

I'm not the expert so I cant say what should be done, but I wander if maybe upscaling all the classes is the answer rather then dumbing everyone down. Maybe when we see that Bard is overpowered but Fun, maybe the answer isn't make Bard not Fun but instead make all the other classes Fun

Maschinengeist

Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.

During group combat or grinding sessions, do you feel any core features or gameplay elements are missing or underdeveloped? If yes, please describe.

I play cleric most of the time and I think it's serviceable, especially in PvE. But even though I can see clear attempts to make the skills feel and function differently, cleric feels very basic and uninspired. In PvP it can even be frustrating.

As a former Guild Wars (1) player I was hoping there'd be a few more options that allow you to mitigate or even prevent incoming damage, rather than just having to spam all skills off cooldown, hoping you can outheal said damage.

I will just post three of my favorites as examples:

With skills like these healing becomes more than just a numbers game. It's less about mana management and gear, but more about reflexes and proper timing to prevent incoming damage spikes. In my opinion, it makes healer gameplay feel a lot more tactical and rewarding.

Basically, I'd love to have a protection skill tree along with a healing one.

NyceGaming

While we are still in alpha and far from seeing these archetypes in their final form nor in class form, there is still quite a discrepancy between archetype design and goals. I’ll try not to say some are ‘more fun’ than others as that is subjective.

While not perfect, the bard and rogue appear to be the goals or ceiling in current archetype design. They are what other archetypes should strive to be at this stage of development at a minimum.

However the tank archetype suffers from a design standpoint. While already a seldom role in MMOs, it’s not being handled well from an identity stance in my opinion. While it can be fun, it lacks a lot compared to previous MMORPG titles even with the acknowledgment of being an alpha. I won’t voice and critique each skill or issue, but here are highlights from myself and the community.

- Fix tank grapple. Don’t meme it as a small issue. This has been an issue since pre A2. While it doesn’t need to be priority #1 , the archetype the most poorly revived perhaps doesn’t need a bug ignored this long.
- Skill Kit Stuns: Tank has 5 + hard trips sharing the same dr cd. Tremoring strike, tomahawk, reflect, vengeance, ground pound. Please consider mixing it up with an immobilize or snare in there possibly on tomahawk (yes taking tremoring bellow upgrade allows for a snare). Tanks in most games are the cc and support master, but in ashes tanks perhaps are barely top 3 in lockdown/cc. An immobilize even single target will go far.
- Identity: Tomahawk? Why. Also even without perfect TTK, the damage transfer abilities could use some work and better attention. Aegis is a poorly designed ability in my opinion compared to similar skills in previous titles. The tank should get a benefit from activating this skill to provide better incentive. Yes of course being unselfish and supporting the group is fun, but this will often unalive yourself in the situations where it’ll be useful. Grit and other mitigation helps this but it needs more. Increase incoming healing received, become cc immune, cleanse dots, or literally anything. Absorbing ALL damage around you can be very risky. I’ve used it to great effect in some scenarios, but it’s missing something.
- Protect skill is fine as is and mandatory for me, but could benefit from the same improvements. Mitigating more damage and having the default range increased. Maybe mitigating 15% of ally’s damage and 10% is transferred to you.
- Vengeance had a great improvement from what it was and flows great in auto attack combos, but the damage shield upgrade for it should be much more large and meaningful. Also there’s enough stuns. Consider making the 3rd hit snare and/or changing it back to AOE
- EDIT: Shake it off should be simplified and add a skill ceiling. Heal X% of damage taken in last X seconds.

Sorry it’s a lot and I won’t critique the rest as I feel it’s fine or not as much a priority in terms of tanking in comparison to the other skills. While one can make the tank great for duels or even PvP; the support, tanking, damage transfer, and identity are lacking.
I provide this novel with love but feedback as I love playing this archetype and know the foundation is there 💜
- NYCE

JamblusGloo

Which archetype do you find the most fun to play? Why?
Rogue is the most mechanically filled-out and engaging class to play. Abilities dovetail together well, you have good options for weaving in abilities to your autoattack rotation so there are less dead periods, you have an expansive and varied toolkit that gives you good responses to a variety of situations, but you still need to be paying attention and be active to do well.

Mage has good visual and audio feedback on abilities for the most part, can set up good combos with Shatter, and is overall doing okay. The only main gripes with Mage is that Fireball is just flat-out always worse than Firebolt to a degree that it's never worth taking, Blizzard doesn't feel great, and the class feels like it could use some love to fill it out more.

Ranger feels like a functional class but doesn't really feel engaging. It has some ability to set up combos but it doesn't feel like it's in a good place overall. It feels like it lacks identity. Mana issues can be a large problem for the class. Snipe, however, has very good audio and visual feedback, and the screen shake is a small but appreciated touch.

Fighter feels like a worse version of Ranger with less clear mechanical interactions between abilities for how many of them reward setting up enemies being Tripped. It's functional. It's capable, for the most part. It's not really majorly interesting and there aren't a lot of moments with the class where you're like, "Wow that was cool!" early on like you might get with other classes. The first time you set up a Shatter combo on Mage or you rip off a Snipe on Ranger, you have a good feeling about it because it has good audio and visual feedback and spikes a large enough amount of damage out that it feels good. Fighter feels like it's lacking something with that factor. Cataclysm is about the closest you get.

Which archetype do you find the least fun to play? Why?
Fighter, though I haven't tried Bard or Cleric. Bard at least seems like it could be interesting due to mechanical depth. Fighter just feels like it's overly bland, the mechanics feel like they weren't integrated well together, and it lacks much in the way of big class fantasy/flashy things it can do.

Are there any combat systems or mechanics you feel need more development or refinement? Please explain.
The entire Stamina system with Guard/Dodge/Run feels like it was basically forgotten and almost abandoned. Gear integration with stuff like bonuses to stamina regen or run speed or benefits post-dodge/guard, a skill tree that has more depth to it and that you don't just have enough points to get literally everything, some sort of differences between how it all works based on armor weight for light/med/heavy. Opportunities exist for it. Right now, they aren't being capitalized on, so it feels out of place.

During group combat or grinding sessions, do you feel any core features or gameplay elements are missing or underdeveloped? If yes, please describe.
The finisher system could do with being made a bit more clear to the player where you are within your chain. The general experience of mob grinding is very static as it stands currently, you go to a PoI, you find an area with okay density, you get into a decent spot, and you start spamming until you need to go take a group mana break. There aren't any apparent dynamic mob behaviors, there's not much in the way of patrols in most places. You basically just unhinge your brain for however long you have a competent group for and then suddenly wake up several levels higher with a pile of assorted glint and loot. I'm not against the occasional brain-off grind session with the lads, but the P2 roadmap did make a point that dynamic NPC behavior and dynamic dungeons would be a thing, and I'm wondering what that's meant to look like and when we're going to see it. Even just something like PoI-specific simple events or quests would be at least something.

Hillefuego

Best archetypes for me are easily Bard and Rogue.
As for Tank, Cleric, Fighter and Ranger; the class designs feel 'eh' , but they are also the archetypes I gravitate least towards in other games.

I've played a lot of mage (in other mmo's as well) and I've always loved feeling like a glass canon kiting machine, however AoC mage has not felt great for me either. In part this is due to the CC immunity mechanic that I'm really not a fan of. I like managing diminishing returns if they are predictable, but the immunity mechanic feels like an easy solution to stop CC from being OP. I kind of see Ranger in similar regard to mage as its physical slightly tankier counterpart, which I feel suffers greatly from the same mechanic. I'd love to see a change that makes mobs more dangerous but more CCable and for PVP give players more options for CC counterplay.

The best moments as mage in Ashes were simply bowling the lightning ball through groups of frogs and scorpions. I felt like if I was careful enough I could blast through a lot of mobs at once. After the nerf (probably deserved, idk) soloing was dead and I had to group to make any meaningful progress.
Oh yeah, and the blizzard spell is unusable. I absolutely hate it. having to be in melee range is terrible.

In groups I don't really feel like I'm enabling my teammates with anything other than effects that are automatically caused by my abilities but that might be a 'me' problem lmao

One thing that feels underdeveloped for grinding is a way to specialize in killing certain mobs. I know its probably way too early for something like this but it could incentivize a lot more crafting or farming specific gear/mobs.

Tryol

I hope we get more specialization for archetypes (maybe with the talent reworks 🙏).
For example, it would be cool if:[/s]
Mages were able to specialize in element(s), because being an "everything-mage" is boring.
Clerics had a dark magic specialization, because only having access to Radiant skills makes monotone compared to other archetypes.

Ventharien

Tank, tank forever. Unlike other games, I feel like tank has the mobility to actually get to where I need to be in combat to actually help save other players, or discourage attackers. I don't feel useless in pvp, actually being able to dish out some punishment, and can actually defend other players with a variety of the archtypes abilities.

Don't play other classes so can't comment on those.

If anything, it might be a good plan to tilt the archetype more to the either diminishing of enemy damage, or increasing of party mitigation, preferable in an aoe context, to increase the classes usefulness in larger scale pvp events.

RedLeader1

I always play a healer/support so Cleric. My thoughts are as follows:

1. In every MMO taking support classes for PvP tends to be a waste. As with solo play, damage is always superior to healing. Right now, ranged DPS is vastly superior to melee dps, because of this whole damage is greater than healing paradigm, and melee needs healers to stay alive, because kiting is a little too easy.

2. Playing into this is the group grinding for XP. The need for a cleric in the party is not clear. A Bard is often good enough and far more efficient. Most grinding groups only need to heal between pulls, and clerics seem to level more slowly than the dps in grinding groups. In fact the best grinding group size for levelling a cleric is 2. You have to have a guild that is thinking long-term PvE to really bother helping a cleric level. Given the way the game is attracting primarily people more interested in PvP, I can foresee a shortage of clerics (and tanks) at endgame.

3. The cleric hybrid (damage+healing+CC) spells are very lack-luster. Particularly the ones that damage and heal. I would rather the single target damage was better, the CC was better and/or the AOE healing was better, than adding weak damage to the healing spells. Hybrid anything tends to make things useless at everything. If people want aoe damage added to healing spells then do it though picking a mage as the secondary, if they want hybrid CC then pick ranger/rogue. Let the player decide what they want please. I would like to give up all aoe damage and CC in the base class, letting my secondary archetype decide where I want to broaden my skills.

4. Usually, in a lot of MMOs, if you play a healer, you are going to be levelling solo a lot, because all these issues exist and they can't really be changed without making the cleric too powerful. So, until the solo game is padded out there is little to be added here. The need for tank/healer/dps in PvP and group levelling is not clear, and given so many guilds lack of commitment to end-game PvE, trying to level a tank/healer when it only leads to less efficient grinding means that we are going to be mostly levelling these classes solo, which is fine, and preferable to forcing players to wait, until they find a tank and healer, to grind with.

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