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Risk, Reward, Difficulty & FUN: What Intrepid is Missing

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Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Ah, I understand better now, then, you're moreso in the 'Single-Player MMO' camp.
    Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning is the best Single-Player MMORPG ever!
    Its only flaw is that it's not multiplayer.
    :D

    wait, are you serious? i was just checking it out. thinking about buying it. saw it for $10 and the game + dlc for $13.

    i cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not. game looked fun to me since you can build your character in any way you want plus the combat seems cool.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Ha!
    The devs will tell you that Ashes is designed to be anti-Zerg.

    IMAGINE creating a Game with an intentional Engine to put MASSIVE back in MMO -> and then design the Game Mechanic in a way, that a bunch of several Hundred Sweatlords can hold a Node forever -> no matter how many THOUSANDS of "Enemy" Players are against them. :D
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    This one makes me think of something. I think that maybe there's a sort-of equivalent of this feeling for Econ-focused players, it's just so long/complex that I never want to try explaining it, but honestly this is probably the thread for a short-form.

    "Not being able to even guess why someone/a small group is in an area."

    I think that line doesn't make sense on its own, but in this case, if the only reason a player has, to be in an area, is to look for someone else (not someone specific, just 'another person') to kill for the sake of killing them, I don't think one can call it 'meaningful conflict'.

    The next step normally is 'well maybe they are defending the territory and have a good reason to keep everyone out'. Ok, sure, that implies a reason why they do that, though. I don't have a problem with being fought or hunted while walking through a Py'Rai forest if I think they're protecting their trees or something.

    I think this is actually somewhat a designer's responsibility. If your MMORPG is supposed to attract a bunch of players who just want to fight other players on the road, it's your job as a Dev to put a reason behind that in the world a decent portion of the time.

    Most games I've played 'ignore' this or make it a loose enough connection, resulting in a higher population of players who are not there to play an MMORPG, they're there to play a combat sim where they can snowball or ego-check people who did, and the only win-condition for those is 'when the other player acknowledges defeat/the hierarchy'.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Hmmn. So this kinda reminds of EQNext's concept of PvP Conflict - we have a whole bunch of former SOE devs on the Intrepid team, several of whom worked on the EQ franchise, so I'm expecting something like this will fall under what the Ashes devs have referred to as Meaningful Conflict.

    The EQNext scenario the devs shared with us is:
    Kithicor Forest is filled with Dryads who have Life Energy which can be siphoned as a resource. The Dark Elves kill the Dryads to siphon the Life Energy and convert it to Shadow Energy, which powers Shadow Magic and Stealth.
    I typically have my characters max Stealth and I am usually a carebear, but... if I have to kill Dryads to siphon their Life Energy to power the Stealth abilities for my Rogue... any player character Druids who try to stop me from killing Dryads will just have to die!!
    Draining Life Energy from Kithicor Forest will, over time, negatively impact all life in Kithicor Forest, so there is incentive for players to prevent the Dryads from being killed. Unbeknownst to the players, a tipping point of Life Energy depletion will allow Shadow Demons to break their shackles, roam across zones and destroy all life in their wake...Dark Elves included. Which will push the Dark Elves to ally with their former rivals to re-imprison the Shadow Demons.

    I don't think a relic, as described, would entice me to participate in PvP combat.
    I'm not going to try to kill a player character because of something they hold in their possession.
    In the EQNext scenario, I'm truly focused on the PvE. And it's not really anything material I'm seeking - what I'm seeking is to improve my non-combat skills. If other players are gonna try to impede that, it could provoke me to initiate PvP, even though I would consider that a last resort option.
    My quote, above, is from 2021. In the midst of Alpha One and before Jeffrey Bard left as Lead Game Designer.

    Kinda the flip side of that scenario is playing a Druid who knows that depleting too much Life Energy from Kithicor Forest will trigger the Shadow Demons to escape and wreak havoc around the region. As a Druid, I would try to parlay with players who are killing too many Dryads. I might have to initiate PvP if they continue to slaughter Dryads - but the motivation isn't because I love PvP or I want to steal loot from other players. Rather it is a last resort to protect the region from rampaging Shadow Demons.
    Again... Meaningful Conflict rather than Risk v Reward.

    I have abysmally low interest in Risk v Reward.
    But, Meaningful Conflict is highly enticing, to me.

    Ya I'm a min from walking away from Ashes as well. I have been testing Soulframe, I'm enjoying the PvE and the combat. There plans for PvP is enough to give me my PvP fix when I need it. Ashes Bard is the second best class I have played in my 25+ years of MMOing. Still needed love but the core play style was fun and rewarding. The more and more they move away from causel progression. Sad part is the game does not need to be casuel but just needs to make it possible to progress.

    The last straw for me is ignoring feedback on gear scaling. Steven does not get that a PvP game needs to be skilled based. I'm tired of asking and seeing so many exit from failing to see that happen.

    I would look again at Ashes if the gear boost was no more then 20%. I know now Steven does not care about PvP balance. He case more about gear looking "LEGANDARY". This game wlis walking down the same path every PvP has. Toxic PvPer will rule. People will be sick of not being able to defend themselves. Casuals and pure crafters will leave first. The game will go down hill from there. Toxic players will get board when their pray leaves and servers will become ghost towns. I have been MMOing PvP since DAoC launch. No PvP MMO has gotten it right since then. ESO was close. Would still be playing ESO if PvP players got some love.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
  • ordotemplariiordotemplarii Member, Alpha Two
    Enigmatic Sage wrote: »
    @ordotemplarii

    the combat systems synergy to proc stronger abilities based on status effects definitely aids in rotational spam for zerging

    Unfortunately, range will almost always have an advantage in larger scaled combat scenarios than the front liners because of game design advantages. Just inevitable unfortunately.

    Distance/positioning, aoe, proc synergy, and support roles backing them up compared to the front liners and scrimmagers

    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Pretty much. The pvpers that are attracted by these kinds of games do everything in the game, simply cause it benefits them. If only pvers could do the same.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 6
    ordotemplarii wrote: »
    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.
    You get to lvl10 by doing a quest chain and killing a few mobs here and there. Then you can easily get to ~lvl15 completely solo. After that it'll really slow down, but is still more than doable. And that's me talking as a tank, who has the supposedly worst dps in the game, so any other archetype can level even faster solo.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    ordotemplarii wrote: »
    Enigmatic Sage wrote: »
    @ordotemplarii

    the combat systems synergy to proc stronger abilities based on status effects definitely aids in rotational spam for zerging

    Unfortunately, range will almost always have an advantage in larger scaled combat scenarios than the front liners because of game design advantages. Just inevitable unfortunately.

    Distance/positioning, aoe, proc synergy, and support roles backing them up compared to the front liners and scrimmagers

    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.

    1- what do you consider leveling up as a zerg?
    2- who says you cant get past level 10 without a zerg? im assuming zerg here you mean a raid or bigger.

    exp in raids got nerfed. it was viable in alpha 1 lol. you can still items as a raid though. nothing wrong with that.

    1-10 is faster soloing than partying, unless you go to a couple of special spots (assuming no one is there).
    10-14/15 only takes a few hours soloing. it's probably faster than partying, and you make more money too. I'm never partying again from 1 to 14 xDDD. you can still solo after that but it's faster as a party, and partying isnt zerguing.

    why people dont want to party is beyond me.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Pretty much. The pvpers that are attracted by these kinds of games do everything in the game, simply cause it benefits them. If only pvers could do the same.

    To be fair that is because most PvP games just dumb down the crafting/sourcing aspects to the point where nearly everyone can do them.

    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    To be fair that is because most PvP games just dumb down the crafting/sourcing aspects to the point where nearly everyone can do them.

    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    While I definitely see your point and agree with both of its parts, I somewhat disagree with its application to even the promised Ashes crafting.

    With full trade and proper markets, all any singular players needs to do to craft is to go buy some stuff. All any single players in the crafting chain needs to do is to go do their singular (maaaybe 2-3) profession. At its core both of those things are kinda dumbed down, cause they do not require much thought.

    Will the overall process be less smooth than if the server was full of pro artisans? Sure. But it'll still work well enough for people to progress. Or, at least, I assume it would, cause even though the base lvl of material acquisition in L2 was just "farm mobs on a specific class", I don't really see that as too much different from "just cut trees as a specific artisan profession" or "process rocks as a specific artisan profession".
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    To be fair that is because most PvP games just dumb down the crafting/sourcing aspects to the point where nearly everyone can do them.

    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    While I definitely see your point and agree with both of its parts, I somewhat disagree with its application to even the promised Ashes crafting.

    With full trade and proper markets, all any singular players needs to do to craft is to go buy some stuff. All any single players in the crafting chain needs to do is to go do their singular (maaaybe 2-3) profession. At its core both of those things are kinda dumbed down, cause they do not require much thought.

    Will the overall process be less smooth than if the server was full of pro artisans? Sure. But it'll still work well enough for people to progress. Or, at least, I assume it would, cause even though the base lvl of material acquisition in L2 was just "farm mobs on a specific class", I don't really see that as too much different from "just cut trees as a specific artisan profession" or "process rocks as a specific artisan profession".

    Oh no, I meant that the reason PvP players stay in games like Ashes and 'just craft' is because crafting is not complex.

    I own items in FF11 that were so relatively hard to make that I needed to get 3 people with the required experience together, decide who was going to be in charge of what functions of the Synergy Furnace, and still spend half an hour with maybe 7 fails (tbf half of those were just bad luck) before we synchronized enough to eventually make the gear.

    I'm not saying everything needs to be that level, I'm just noting that we can't really draw a parallel, because Synergy is stilleasier than proper PvP.

    Some PvE players can't do the same because they wouldn't be good enough to PvP or craft. It's just that some PvP players are 'only good enough to get carried in PvP so they would also fail at difficult crafting'. Knowing that, the games make crafting simple, because those are the people PvP games need to keep attracting.
    You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
  • Enigmatic SageEnigmatic Sage Member
    ordotemplarii wrote: »
    Enigmatic Sage wrote: »
    @ordotemplarii

    the combat systems synergy to proc stronger abilities based on status effects definitely aids in rotational spam for zerging

    Unfortunately, range will almost always have an advantage in larger scaled combat scenarios than the front liners because of game design advantages. Just inevitable unfortunately.

    Distance/positioning, aoe, proc synergy, and support roles backing them up compared to the front liners and scrimmagers

    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Shatter


    Effect description
    When you deal lightning damage to a recently Frozen target, they are dealt a bonus (225%🢆) Ice damage. Shattered can only be triggered once every 4 seconds per caster against the same target.

    Any viable player/class can apply the previous effects for the ability to proc synergistically.

    Different abilities synergistically flow from various classes and specialisations

    Making sure targets are maintained with debuffs makes synergistic opportunities more abundant regardless of cool down timers.

    look at conflagrating
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Conflagrating

    Effect description
    Convert all remaining Burning damage on the target into a quick DoT lasting 6s. Total burn amount is also boosted by 30%.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Pretty much. The pvpers that are attracted by these kinds of games do everything in the game, simply cause it benefits them. If only pvers could do the same.

    PvP'ers generally draw the line at top end raiding (which is why PvP games no longer have top end raids).

    PvE'ers generally draw the line at PvP.

    Both will happily branch out to things like crafting, if there is a need.

    This all seems fairly equal to me - when you donsider that the group of players that consider themselves PvP only is vanishingly small, and the group of players that consider themselves PvE only is also vanishingly small.
  • Enigmatic SageEnigmatic Sage Member
    @ordotemplarii it doesn't matter what intrepid does as large scale combat scenario's always results in chaotic combat and battlefields. Zerging is a strategy, it's literally how medieval wars were fought (especially ambush zergs such cavalry men or archers flanking)

    To the say the game is anti-zerg while devoutly supporting massive player count combat is absurd to me.
    You're just going to have a bunch of raid groups zerging around regardless of within or outside of scenario's. The flagging system only deter's massive zerging outside the scenario's otherwise players defending a castle siege war or node siege would be team killing with corruption.

    Dont get me wrong though, large scale combat in video games is still a lot of run regardless of chaos
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    I mean - even in D&D, I don't like the idea of having to kill a bunch of stuff to Level. I prefer to avoid killing stuff as much as possible. And I hated when we basically had to convert Treasure into XP in order to Level.
    It's not very heroic to have to steal treasure and kill everything in sight.
    I don't even like for NPCs and mobs.

    I especially don't want to be killing other players. And I don't want to be stealing stuff from other players, either.
    The Stealth and Garrote animations were so over-the-top and visceral in KOA: Reckoning that I loved Pickpocketing and slitting the throats of mobs and NPCs in that game, but... I think I still would not want to do that to players.

    No reason to "dumb-down" PvP.
    For me, the devs would have to find a way to provide a more meaningful motivation besides killing players for Loot. Sieges are intriguing, but even then I prefer to focus on indirect PvE objectives rather than direct combat.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    AI Insight > Here’s a structured look at the current MMORPG landscape (as of mid‑2025), followed by tailored strategies for Ashes of Creation to harmonize casual and hardcore playstyles and cultivate a thriving, long-term community:

    1. Overview of Current MMORPGs (mid‑2025)
    Popular & Established Titles
    Final Fantasy XIV – At the top of many “best MMORPG” lists, praised for its deep storytelling, frequent free content updates (around every three months), and an exceptionally welcoming player community
    GamesRadar+
    +13
    TechRadar
    +13
    ashesofcreation.wiki
    +13
    .

    World of Warcraft – Continues its legacy as a genre-defining MMORPG, balancing accessibility for new players with evolving endgame content
    GamesRadar+
    .

    The Elder Scrolls Online – Known for massive exploration, immersive world-building, and flexibility in combat and character builds
    Massively Overpowered
    +3
    TechRadar
    +3
    GamesRadar+
    +3
    .

    EVE Online – A complex sandbox with player-driven politics, economy, and memorable large-scale conflicts
    GamesRadar+
    +1
    .

    Old School RuneScape – Nostalgic, community-voted content keeps it relevant, drawing both returning players and newcomers
    GamesRadar+
    +14
    GamesRadar+
    +14
    TechRadar
    +14
    .

    Guild Wars 2 – Acclaimed for dynamic events, responsive storytelling, and increasingly frequent expansion cycles
    TechRadar
    Wikipedia
    .

    Star Wars: The Old Republic – Classic BioWare-style narratives remain a strong draw, delivering cinematic storytelling
    GamesRadar+
    +7
    TechRadar
    +7
    GamesRadar+
    +7
    .

    Other Notables
    Lost Ark – Noted for punchy action combat and continual content updates
    TechRadar
    .

    Fallout 76, Black Desert Online, Runescape, ESO, SWTOR – Each offers unique appeal, from crafting depth to open-world exploration
    Reddit
    +6
    TechRadar
    +6
    Ashes of Creation
    +6
    .

    Throne and Liberty – Launched late 2024, it made a big early impact with free-to-play accessibility and both PvP and PvE features, though server consolidations followed due to uneven population levels
    Wikipedia
    +1
    .

    Upcoming MMORPGs in 2025
    Titles generating buzz include Dune: Awakening, Chrono Odyssey, Aion 2, Pax Dei, Camelot Unchained, Ship of Heroes, and Brighter Shores
    GamesRadar+
    +4
    MMORPG.com
    +4
    Reddit
    +4
    .

    2. Addressing Casual vs. Hardcore Play in Ashes of Creation
    What the game has so far:

    Ashes of Creation is recognized for offering “endless content for casuals” — freeholds, tavern games, PvP arenas, events, community content, gathering, and flexible movement across regions
    Reddit
    +1
    .

    The developers also view the game as primarily catering to hardcore PvP-oriented audiences, akin to players of EVE Online, ArcheAge, Lineage II — which could alienate more casual gamers
    Ashes of Creation
    .

    Although mechanics differentiate playstyles (hardcore can progress faster), casual players may struggle to influence competitive systems like node control
    ashesofcreation.wiki
    .

    Key Tensions:

    Hardcore players drive progression and control systems.

    Casual players enjoy community, social, and low-commitment activities.

    Without balance, influence remains skewed toward hardcore factions.

    3. Recommendations to Bridge the Gap & Foster Longevity
    A) Adaptive Progression & Influence
    Scaled Node Influence: Allow casual contributions (time spent, community tasks) to earn influence—even in smaller increments—so casuals feel impactful.

    Mentorship Pathways: Encourage hardcore players to mentor newcomers—perhaps via story-based incentives or mutual rewards.

    B) Diverse Activity Tiers
    Tiered Events: Offer both low-commitment daily quests, social events, and relaxed gathering, alongside high-stakes PvP/raids. This mirrors what makes FFXIV enjoyable: variability and accessibility
    YouTube
    .

    Solo-Friendly Content: Ensure certain encounters, quests, and node interactions are designed with solo or small-group play in mind.

    C) Community Empowerment Tools
    Player-Driven Events: Enable groups to organize activities—fairs, tournaments, festivals—complete with tools for announcements, rewards, and moderation.

    Housing & Social Spaces: Expand on freeholds with player-run taverns, guild halls, or markets. These spaces build social bonds and casual comfort.

    D) Recognition & Reward Systems
    Dual Recognition Tracks: Separate (and reward) contributions through combat or governance vs. social engagement and consistency.

    Badges & Titles: Offer visible, cumulative markers for both hardcore achievements and community/supportive roles.

    E) Dynamic Content Adaptability
    Scaling Mechanics: Implement content that scales difficulty dynamically (like in Guild Wars 2’s strike missions), making previously inaccessible content accessible to groups of differing sizes.

    Event Accessibility: Run flexible drop-in events where casuals can participate at any stage—fitting storytelling, PvE, or PvP depth as needed.

    4. Building a Sustainable, Long-Term Community
    Consistent, phased updates: Emulate models like GW2 and FFXIV, with frequent post-launch updates and expansions that keep content fresh and balanced


    Feedback Loops: Actively engage with both casual and hardcore players via forums, polls, dev Q&A—adjusting game systems responsively.

    Cross-Play and Cross-Platform: If feasible, expanding platforms and enabling accessibility helps grow player base and diversity.

    Social Programs & Onboarding: Offer guided new-player orientation, community ambassadors, and welcome packages to ensure newcomers stick around.

    Summary Table
    Area Casual-Centric Initiatives Hardcore Supporting Enhancements
    Influence Scaled, time-based impact High-stakes governance systems
    Content Solo quests, social events, low-commitment tasks Challenging raids, node wars, PvP arenas
    Social Player-owned housing, community hubs Strategy-driven guild leadership tools
    Recognition Community helper titles, casual badges Achievement-based prestige and rewards
    Content Delivery Frequent, varied updates Deep, competitive expansions and patches

    ** Bottom Line:** Ashes of Creation has the potential to unite casual and hardcore audiences through flexible progression systems, diverse content, and an ecosystem that rewards contribution in many forms.

    Real community bonds and longevity grow when every player—regardless of playstyle—feels seen, valued, and empowered to participate in the world’s unfolding narrative.
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    akabear wrote: »
    ....** Bottom Line:** Ashes of Creation has the potential to unite casual and hardcore audiences through flexible progression systems, diverse content, and an ecosystem that rewards contribution in many forms.....

    This will be key in obtaining and retaining monthly subs since most people will not let a monthly sub. languish unused if it does not satisfy its purpose (whatever that is to each individuals preference).
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