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Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alt characters effect on pseudo faction design
Volgaris
Member, Alpha Two
I want to highlight a few things about alts and how they impact MMOs. I have a pretty neutral stance on alts. If i like a game I'll play 4 or 5 alts, or max out the slots with all the classes/races maxed. But playing alts does impact the game. I've also found games where I only want to play a single character, and an alt was only made to be a mule. I think Ashes lends itself to be alt friendly, maybe too much so.
The GOOD.
1. Alts give players that spend more time playing the game more content.
2. It will make you a better player for your main class. Going from tank to healer will give you a better sense of what a healer can do.
3. You can play with friends that start late. If I'm level 50 and a friend joins the game I want to play with them, so I can spin up a new character and level with them. Leveling with friends is probably my favorite part of MMOs.
4. Leveling alts will introduce you to new people, the social aspect of the MMO genre can't be ignored. Making new friends is a great thing these games are good at, or were good at, that has changed with recent games, but that's a different topic.
The BAD.
1. Alts in mmos allow a single player to craft just about anything they need without outside support. At launch and the first 6 months this won't be an issue, but as the sweatys pull away they'll be making alt after alt. I will be if I find the game enjoyable. Basically a player with 5 or 6 maxed characters will be able to craft just about anything they want by themselves. And maybe they should be able to. Leveling all those characters took time and effort. But what impact will this have on the games economy? Not as much bots or exploits for sure, but some impact. I've done this in games where all my characters are maxed and I've basically made myself self sufficient for everything I needed. So good and bad depending on your view point, but over all I place in the bad because the intent of the game is to have people rely on each for crafting/progressing. If that core pillar of the game can be avoided it lessens the value of it.
The UGLY.
1. The spy alts. The griefer alts. This is were I see a major problem with alts. An alt gives you anonymity, your alt is in no way linked to your main. So you can spy on other guilds with your alts. You can create an alt to gank people without consequence to your reputation. Steven says the game is a pseudo faction based game, but not faction based. And your reputation will matter, so you'll face consequences for your actions. But if your alt hides your identity will there ever be consequence? Currently there is no game design solution for this. Every guild will have spies in it that are alts. They will literally be everywhere. Those poor souls who just want to watch the burn will be making alts just to gank and harass plays. That person griefing you might be someone from your guild that lost that Need Roll to you or some other petty crap.
Alts are quick to level, you tweak them out with gear from your main and they'll mow down same level mobs with 5 times the efficiency of those without the tweaked gear. I could easy level to 25 in 2 or 3 days with gear handed down from my main. This doesn't even have to be good gear. So after my burner alt had a bad rep I'd have another already ready to go. Rinse and repeat, it won't be long before this is a streamlined process for many.
This is something I could easily see guilds doing to run covert ops against rival guilds... or their own guild.. Who know really what guild they're in, with so much anonymity your identity means nothing, and so does your reputation. Who this works for is that group of 10 players who want to sow chaos and destroy. Overall I say this is bad, the grind to level a guild and node is very massive. You already have to worry about so many ways it can be destroyed and your efforts wasted, why allow so much anonymity? I'm not saying there shouldn't be spying or people running around reeking havoc with their characters, but with so much anonymity there is no player reputation, without player reputation the pseudo faction design pillar will collapse.
SOLUTIONS?
1. A way to curve it that would probably be the most accepted is a Family/Last name tied to the account. All characters on the account will end up with the same last name. This gives the bonus of allowing people to have the same first names. Which is a neat bonus. It doesn't affect any of the items in the Good category either which is critical. Some people will open two accounts to skirt this rule, but at least that's more money for Ashes.
2. This would be less favorable, but reducing the character slots to 2 or 3. Have people pay more for additional slots. I have seen this done in some older games with pretty good success. Probably not a good option here.
3. Guild level solution for spies. Make members or just select leadership stream their character screen. Still doesn't avoid dual account players, and would be unnecessary with family/last names.
Be kind, please rewind.
The GOOD.
1. Alts give players that spend more time playing the game more content.
2. It will make you a better player for your main class. Going from tank to healer will give you a better sense of what a healer can do.
3. You can play with friends that start late. If I'm level 50 and a friend joins the game I want to play with them, so I can spin up a new character and level with them. Leveling with friends is probably my favorite part of MMOs.
4. Leveling alts will introduce you to new people, the social aspect of the MMO genre can't be ignored. Making new friends is a great thing these games are good at, or were good at, that has changed with recent games, but that's a different topic.
The BAD.
1. Alts in mmos allow a single player to craft just about anything they need without outside support. At launch and the first 6 months this won't be an issue, but as the sweatys pull away they'll be making alt after alt. I will be if I find the game enjoyable. Basically a player with 5 or 6 maxed characters will be able to craft just about anything they want by themselves. And maybe they should be able to. Leveling all those characters took time and effort. But what impact will this have on the games economy? Not as much bots or exploits for sure, but some impact. I've done this in games where all my characters are maxed and I've basically made myself self sufficient for everything I needed. So good and bad depending on your view point, but over all I place in the bad because the intent of the game is to have people rely on each for crafting/progressing. If that core pillar of the game can be avoided it lessens the value of it.
The UGLY.
1. The spy alts. The griefer alts. This is were I see a major problem with alts. An alt gives you anonymity, your alt is in no way linked to your main. So you can spy on other guilds with your alts. You can create an alt to gank people without consequence to your reputation. Steven says the game is a pseudo faction based game, but not faction based. And your reputation will matter, so you'll face consequences for your actions. But if your alt hides your identity will there ever be consequence? Currently there is no game design solution for this. Every guild will have spies in it that are alts. They will literally be everywhere. Those poor souls who just want to watch the burn will be making alts just to gank and harass plays. That person griefing you might be someone from your guild that lost that Need Roll to you or some other petty crap.
Alts are quick to level, you tweak them out with gear from your main and they'll mow down same level mobs with 5 times the efficiency of those without the tweaked gear. I could easy level to 25 in 2 or 3 days with gear handed down from my main. This doesn't even have to be good gear. So after my burner alt had a bad rep I'd have another already ready to go. Rinse and repeat, it won't be long before this is a streamlined process for many.
This is something I could easily see guilds doing to run covert ops against rival guilds... or their own guild.. Who know really what guild they're in, with so much anonymity your identity means nothing, and so does your reputation. Who this works for is that group of 10 players who want to sow chaos and destroy. Overall I say this is bad, the grind to level a guild and node is very massive. You already have to worry about so many ways it can be destroyed and your efforts wasted, why allow so much anonymity? I'm not saying there shouldn't be spying or people running around reeking havoc with their characters, but with so much anonymity there is no player reputation, without player reputation the pseudo faction design pillar will collapse.
SOLUTIONS?
1. A way to curve it that would probably be the most accepted is a Family/Last name tied to the account. All characters on the account will end up with the same last name. This gives the bonus of allowing people to have the same first names. Which is a neat bonus. It doesn't affect any of the items in the Good category either which is critical. Some people will open two accounts to skirt this rule, but at least that's more money for Ashes.
2. This would be less favorable, but reducing the character slots to 2 or 3. Have people pay more for additional slots. I have seen this done in some older games with pretty good success. Probably not a good option here.
3. Guild level solution for spies. Make members or just select leadership stream their character screen. Still doesn't avoid dual account players, and would be unnecessary with family/last names.
Be kind, please rewind.
0
Comments
There is no such thing as too much of a good thing, especially when it requires a monthly.
Edit: the above comment does nothing to progress the OPs thoughts on the item at hand but did seem distantly relevant
Ever drank too much? Love me some whiskey, but there is a time to say 'that's enough of that for now' lol. But yeah i love my alts too, and value for money is a relevant to the overall discussion.
The consequences for the player will come from their inability to be on 2 chars at the same time. If you miss guild gatherings because you needed to be on an alt for something - that's a hit to rep. If you don't spend enough time on your main char, because you're progressing an alt, while the rest of your guild is boosting forward - minus rep. If you ever get caught in voice - minus rep. If you can't join voice, because you're scared to get caught - minus rep.
As for the unpunished abuse of players on alts - I've been suggesting an account-wide PK Count for years now. If you want to PK on an alt - sure, go ahead. But you'll still have to pay for it sooner rather than later, AND you won't be able to PK as readily on your main, cause you'll get completely fucked over by the corruption scaling.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Either way spying is as old as gaming it self.
Sure you can add a surname of account or a tracking tool..
What stops the player from just getting another account and spying with that.
Some peoples game play loop is based on spying I’ve met people like this and know of several in other games.
There always a work around.
The tool to stop this is ip tracker put to the account .
What about vpns then..the rabbit hole just goes deeper and deeper.
At what point does a game designer just throw their hands up.
These decades old problems with zero solutions from a game designer perspective.at a minimum in my belief there should be at least a tracking tool for alts.
Spy’s will always be there at least that makes them buy another account and sub it.
Pretty much all you can do to stop the ugly.
You have just described the entire reason behind alts not having surnames. Steven wants this kind of shit. The guild sabotage, the drama, the "soft" friction, etc.
People will do this regardless, actively enabling it is what will make it eat itself. I'm just trying to bring attention to its flaws.
The consequences for the player will come from their inability to be on 2 chars at the same time. If you miss guild gatherings because you needed to be on an alt for something - that's a hit to rep. If you don't spend enough time on your main char, because you're progressing an alt, while the rest of your guild is boosting forward - minus rep. If you ever get caught in voice - minus rep. If you can't join voice, because you're scared to get caught - minus rep.
Most guilds won't be on all the time, you just level, sow chaos while it's down time. Who you spy for will know that. You won't take a hit with your guild rep. If your role in Guild1 is to be a spy for them, they'll know you have to do spy shit. So you won't take any flack from Guild1, and Guild2 who you're spying on won't know any better because you're spy is actually your main in their eyes. Easy to change discord profiles, easy to voice modulate. The barrier isn't high, everyone will be a spy, because they can have 6 different identities. This is bad design. The game already lacks structure and this design just adds to the chaos. That's going to impact a lot of players that don't engage in this and will eventually impact them enough to the point they leave. There needs to be some guard rails on it, is my point.
As for the unpunished abuse of players on alts - I've been suggesting an account-wide PK Count for years now. If you want to PK on an alt - sure, go ahead. But you'll still have to pay for it sooner rather than later, AND you won't be able to PK as readily on your main, cause you'll get completely fucked over by the corruption scaling.
Account wide PK count is interesting, I"m not sure how that would be represented in the game or what effects it would have on your characters in the account. Corruption and death penalties are a different topic I think which need some more work. PvP is too steep at the moment.
@Slayven
Basing a game on reputation follows you and yet you can spy with an alt is contradicting each other?
Yes, which is kind of my point. Reputation here is "player" reputation. How do other players see you in the game. But alts are basically burner phones you can uses as you need. They aren't linked to your reputation. So what's the point of the whole idea of 'player reputation'?
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Either way spying is as old as gaming it self.
Sure you can add a surname of account or a tracking tool..
What stops the player from just getting another account and spying with that.
Nothing it's just another barrier to minimize the amount of players that scum spy.
Some peoples game play loop is based on spying I’ve met people like this and know of several in other games.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed. But in Ashes the amount of work need for a Node or Guild will be massive. The effectiveness of spy will be immense and devistating, which compounds the issue. The reputation ideally would be the tool to handle this, but has no capability to do so.
There always a work around.
True, but doesn't hurt to have some guardrails.
The tool to stop this is ip tracker put to the account .
What about vpns then..the rabbit hole just goes deeper and deeper.
I don't think it'd need to go this far. Althought I don't think connections through VPNs should be allowed. That's how botters and exploiters say anonymous. That and game cards. I will assume they are already tracking your IP when you log in and associating it with your account. This is just good practices to help protect your account for theft, among other reasons.
At what point does a game designer just throw their hands up.
When they don't want to be paid anymore.
These decades old problems with zero solutions from a game designer perspective.at a minimum in my belief there should be at least a tracking tool for alts.
Spy’s will always be there at least that makes them buy another account and sub it.
Pretty much all you can do to stop the ugly.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat really. Reputation should be account wide, not limited to the character. Something to tie them together. I wouldn't want my alts to suffer corruptions because I was PvPing though, that'd be dumb. A lastname, alt tracker, something to limit it make player reputation matter, or it's really just character reputation.
And keeping your alts secret from your guild just brings us back to what I already said - minus rep. Though even those secrets are rarely kept for too long. Someone somewhere usually finds out and either rats you out or starts going after you themselves.
I know Steven said he likes it. But will it work in Ashes is a different story. Think of AA or L2 or something they didn't have the time sink like Ashes does for the things that will be contested. This is where it differs and why some safe guards on it like trackers, account wide rep, lastname, ect could help curve the chaos that'll drive players away. I've talked to a lot of players that in all fairness lean PvE, but do enjoy some good PvP, that are hold outs on the game. One of a few reasons is this issue. I don't think it'll take long for this to be abused to nth degree and people get frustrated. If you can't identify who the mole is because the system protects them than what options are left for those players, they'll leave. Because everything in the game will be affected. Not just guild politics but a Node, which can stop your individual progress. This wasn't the case in those other games. You still had options. Just saying it's different. You have a fair point, the people are detected eventually, but it'll be too late, then they delete that char start a new one and repeat for the next target, until there are no more targets and they win the game they were playing. Kings of nothing.
Like I said in a different comment, if you add surnames or acc trackers - it's a p2w issue. The people who care enough about destroying someone else's gameplay to this degree will simply buy another account. If anything, that would make things way easier for them, cause they now can be in 2 places at the same time and can mess things up even more.
You simply cannot stop this, unless you completely prevent whole IP hubs from logging in on more than one account at a time. If people leave just because their node or guild fell apart - they would've left the game sooner rather than later either way. The entire game's design is directed at fucking your fellow players over. It's in the game's dna.
the bad and the ugly described above arent really bad things.
first, since you can only max 2 professions, and there are 5 + 9 + 8 (gathering, processing and crafting), you would need 11 characters to completely be self suficient (and you still need people to help you trade stuff to your other characters). On top of that, you will be limited by the amont of freeholds you can get or have access to through the family system, and citizenship, which is one per account. If somebody, somehow manages all that, they earned it. It's unrealistic though, and you will be using your main character less anyways.
regarding pking and reputation, etc, each character will have it. let people spy and deal with that their own way, instead of using system tools. pking on an alt can't be done like it can be done in l2 since you will have stats dampening...
Are you talking about time investment into node buildup or smth? I'm not sure what time sinks you're talking about here.
Yes the time sink to building up a Node, or really everything. These things can be destroyed faster than they are built and can outright stop progression in some sense.
The people who care enough about destroying someone else's gameplay to this degree will simply buy another account.
Nothings stopping them from doing that now. It's just that they don't need to. So why make it easy for them?
You simply cannot stop this
Just because it can't be stopped doesn't mean it can't be reduced or that it shouldn't be reduced.
If people leave just because their node or guild fell apart - they would've left the game sooner rather than later either way.
Yes and No. People do sometimes leave when guilds fall apart, but if that guild falls apart people the players have left due to facing overwhelming odds with no recourse than they won't likely stay, this is a unique situation that Ashes will have in it's current direction. Ashes is fostering an environment for that. I see it as a folly and saying something about it.
The entire game's design is directed at fucking your fellow players over. It's in the game's dna.
I don't know. Maybe, some choices really do lead me to believe this, but then they do seem to listen. Do we want spying alts, yeah, but do we want that player (not character) to be consequence free from it? No.
first, since you can only max 2 professions, and there are 5 + 9 + 8 (gathering, processing and crafting), you would need 11 characters to completely be self suficient (and you still need people to help you trade stuff to your other characters). On top of that, you will be limited by the amont of freeholds you can get or have access to through the family system, and citizenship, which is one per account. If somebody, somehow manages all that, they earned it. It's unrealistic though, and you will be using your main character less anyways.
This is a fair take, I'm on the fence about though. Yes they for sure earned it. But does it foster a good economy or harm it? Probably harm it.
regarding pking and reputation, etc, each character will have it. let people spy and deal with that their own way, instead of using system tools.
I think this is a mistake. Leaving too much for the players to handle for drama and balance issues is bound to lead to poor game play for the majority as the few reap the benefits. I think some systems tools/designs should be put in place to ensure fun and fair competitive play.
pking on an alt can't be done like it can be done in l2 since you will have stats dampening...
Please explain. Ashes has stat dampening for alts? I didn't play L2 much, and that was damn near 20 years ago...
L2 didn't have stat dampening when you're corrupted, so PK alts could have max corruption on them and still easily kill newbies. Ashes will supposedly completely disable your combat prowess once you get high enough in corruption values.
Because, as I said, it would directly create a p2w situation and would make Steven a liar. He promised no p2w and promised interguild spying gameplay. If we get surnames or acc tracking - that entire gameplay becomes p2w, because people with more money can do it way easier and in a much more beneficial way.
I think here we just disagree. They can utilize two account anyways, or 5 and have a full guild of spies if they wanted. One player who really wants to spy will easily just sub 10 times. By your logic that's p2w and it'll exist either way, whether there are surnames or not. I don't think selling subs is p2w, it's outside reasonable controls for the game.
L2 didn't have stat dampening when you're corrupted, so PK alts could have max corruption on them and still easily kill newbies. Ashes will supposedly completely disable your combat prowess once you get high enough in corruption values.
Gotcha. In the since of PKing this a much better system from this limited knowledge.
1- how does it harm the economy? he can still sell stuff for other people to buy. Now i have less to worry in terms of gearing up, because someone else is doing it for me. I can just keep killing stuff and buying gear with glint. It doesnt matter to me if joe or bob sell me the gear. furthermore, by the time someone like that maxes out everything, new stuff will probably come out soon...also, remember that crafting will be limited GLOBALLY in a server by processing, no matter how many chars you have.
2- i dont think its a mistake. the game is designed with conflict between players in mind and its somewhat encouraged.
3- when you go red, you will lose stats in pvp (unless you fight a bounty hunter)
Yes, it will hopefully curb a ton of lowbie genociding. We'll have to see how it's balanced though.
On 1. I put it in bad because the economy focus of the game. The more people you have engaging in it the better. How much this will effect anything is probably low. I still see it as a negative. But it's likely something I'll do.
On 2. We just disagree. We'll see what impact this has when the launches. Maybe they have plans for this already. If they do nothing I hope I'm wrong, if not I hope act quickly to keep it fair and fun. I'll remain skeptical until I see it proven though.
On 3. Yes corruption. I read your response like an alt would get corruption because a pk on your main or something. I understand now.
But that's the point, people don't HAVE to do that to spy. Your suggestion would MAKE them. There's the p2w. Currently there's 0 p2w, because you can spread all your alts wherever you want for the price of one sub.
Yeah but if I get two accounts I can spread twice as many spies as you now and that's p2w too by your logic. It's same same to me. One way you make have to pay for a second sub to spy anonymously. One way there's a limited free options, but still an option to have more spies via extra subs. Just because you eliminate the free options doesn't mean it becomes p2w if it already has a p2w option. I argue you reduce it because now they have to sub twice for one spy, 3 times for two, and so on. Their money won't go as far. Without a tracker/surname, the cost of spying alts is 1/5th(i math bad..) that vs when there is a surname. So by my logic your option is more p2w than mine lol.
Are you talking about time investment into node buildup or smth? I'm not sure what time sinks you're talking about here.
Yes the time investment to build a node up in general vs the time it takes to destroy one. Same with the guild exp ect. Really anything, your castle or freehold too. Overall this game is a massive time sync, which is GREAT, but also so much can be taken away and the player can be powerless to stop it or avoid it. It'll be punch in the gut. People will only take so many until they aren't having fun anymore.
The people who care enough about destroying someone else's gameplay to this degree will simply buy another account.
Nothing is stopping them from buying two accounts now and doing whatever with them regardless if there's a surname/tracking system or not. Paying for multiple accounts isn't really p2w in my opinion. Those who will do that will do it, many families play together and will use their family members account to gain an advantage in so way, even if it's just sitting around waiting for a lotus to spawn. Multiboxing is p2w though. I don't think this could qualify at least on my scale.
they would've left the game sooner rather than later either way.
People do often leave if their guild falls apart. In Ashes what I see happening is guilds falling apart because Nodes fall apart to overwhelming odds. Not just from spies but from many design pillars Ashes is currently looking at implementing. The question is why let the spies hide behind anonymity so freely? Yes Steven likes this game play, but this isn't AA or L2. The impact will be bigger.
You simply cannot stop this,
It's not an all or nothing concept, there are exceptions to every rule, and you can't stop all bad from happening, but that doesn't mean you do nothing.
The game won't live long without causals. I tend to be more on the sweaty side when free time permits. But if this game is just full of sweatys it's going to stink. Pun intended. So lets not design system to chase away causals...