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FEEDBACK: Economy/Crafting Detailed Rework
lancehavenbay
Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
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Here's an important precursor:
I made about three level 15, and two level 25 characters in Phase II. I had started on this topic and actually meant to post it about a month and a half ago but got pretty busy with work. I also participated in node sieges on the PTR. After Phase III I was relieved to see progress, but knew there still needed to be more done. So I jumped on it:
From the moment the server came online for Phase III, I've been online consistently for just about 60 hours in roughly 5 days. Since Alpha 1, I've tracked drops in a spreadsheet and optimized high-volume farming runs using player-to-mob level differences to quickly farm gear. Because loot tables are shared across mob types(of the same "tier", I.E. <10 gear foes)—regardless of their level—I’ve been able to systematically record drop rates, mob types, and efficient methods for gear acquisition. This has allowed me to directly compare what I call "active casual play" and "gear grind," (not to be confused with XP grind) to strike a balance between realistic expectations during casual play, and possibilities from solo grind.
In less than an hour, pre-gear patch, this is how many recipes were obtained by farming level 3 goblins as a level 9 in my high-volume farm. I had almost every single recipe 0-9. Notice the gear in the middle - each and every piece, (11) were obtained in less than 15 minutes using this same method. All of the recipes were obtained in roughly 40 minutes pre-patch. But I did this with a method that most people don't use.
Concurrently, my guild-mate was farming Oakbane with greatly increased gear drops following the gear-patch was able fully equip himself in a single run. That should never be the case.
Now lets put this into perspective:
Before the gear update, I spent about 50 hours casually exploring and gathering with minimal combat, leveling two characters to 10 and transferring gear between them. In that time, only 4 pieces of gear dropped. A 2H Hammer, an earring, a pair of boots and a chest piece. I did not actively grind mobs. However, during that time - I received 10 recipes and was able to craft Rare+ Shield, Axe, 2H hammer, Wand, Focus. Most of the time was spent looking for rocks, exploring the zone - doing quests. Playing casually.
The recipe only system was amazing, you just need to encourage people to use it.
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Here's where things go VERY wrong:
Ashes of Creation is a game that mixed competitive PvP with PvE MMORPG.
We all know that.
But why is that significant?
NPC and player scaling don’t naturally align in this type of environment. Skill-based PvP relies on strategy and adaptability, not power values or gear progression—mechanics that let gear outweigh skill undermine fair competition. The developers have been actively working to balance TTK, gear/level gaps, and accommodate both high-skill players and casual or reluctant PvPers.
Phase III did a fantastic job—mobs now scale independently to prevent players from entering high-level zones too early, and PvP skill balance is improved without creating an excessive power gap for those who farmed gear or levels. This still needs work, but we are now on the right track.
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But how can we do better?
Diminishing returns are already in the game, but are we scaling the right things?
Instead of good gear, high level provides:
-The ability to walk freely in the open world to harvest to your hearts content, making crafting exceptionally more accessible since very few mobs can touch you now.
-Full access to unimpeded trading and travel, since you no longer need to worry about anyone outside your level range.
-Dominance in pvp, since your basic attacks can now delete anyone not already on your playing field.
If gear were stronger early in the game, players would focus more on acquiring gear and participating in the game’s economy, rather than simply rushing to level up.
Bottom line represents player level, then each line in order [Common, Uncommon, Rare, Heroic, Epic, Legendary, Artifact] of added power and drop-off slope. Artifact being a 1:1 absolute that provides immediate results and measurable but modest benefits at end game.
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So how does this tie in with crafting?
Player level should have minimal impact on PvP compared to gear. Highly-skilled, lower-level players with top-tier gear should be able to compete to some extent.
Early progression should be driven by crafting and gear, with clear power increases as item-level and rarity rises. When major power gains plateau, incremental bonuses (such as new armor set bonuses, more variety of weapons or consumables, auras, buffs, or level-locked progressions) should offer ongoing, but minor, methods for continued progression.
As players advance, power gains should become more and more marginal, providing only slight competitive edges rather than replacing skill. Levels would mainly serve to "unlock new zones," armor passives and questlines - not drastically change a player's power or fate.
Progression should "quickly" shift focus directly from raw power to skillful play, requiring players to master mechanics, adapt roles, and compete against both challenging NPCs and other intelligent players. These are incremental improvements that still reward time invested, but don’t overshadow the importance of gear and economy.
In skill-based systems, success relies on player skill rather than raw power. In economy-based systems, you rely on trading power- a "skill" is instead, an understanding of market trends and value. But, no matter how skilled you are at trading, it doesn’t matter if you have nothing valuable to offer the economy.This is where Ashes kicks itself.
The only incentive currently, is to face grind mobs till max level, not participate in the economy. This will inevitably crush the economy all together, as more and more players eventually have no need, interest or ability to participate in dynamics of the world around them. Players will quickly become disinterested, seeing no value in the time they spend to craft or trade - and will instead feel pressured to "race to the end game," bypassing all content, then cycling back to do what should have been done to start with - economy.
For many that are not interested in brainless grind like this, they may and likely will leave the game prematurely, and permanently. This is especially true for those that have limited online time and want to contribute to the economy/trade but don't have countless hours to face roll mobs simply for the sake of xp - because to them, unless they themselves reach level 25, their contributions and time are worthless.
Here's the New System:
Summary: To create a vibrant early-game economy, it is crucial to motivate and encourage players to craft enough items not just for themselves, but also to drive trade at lower levels. The crafting system should provide clear, standardized progression and tangible incentives, establishing a feedback loop where players feel a sense of growth and accomplishment. Early on, crafting should be accessible, allowing players BEFORE level 10 to produce a surplus of basic equipment or goods that can be sold on the market or open-trade chat for profit. This encourages players to move beyond self-sufficiency and participate in broader trade, facilitating the movement of materials and goods across the world. As players advance, crafting should become progressively more complex, requiring more resources, specialization, and cooperation—whether that means specializing in a crafting discipline, supporting professionals, or contributing to group efforts like gathering materials or transporting goods. The economy must balance accessibility with a gradual increase in challenge, ensuring that crafted items remain meaningful for progression (especially important tools and stat-boosting items) and that there is always motivation for players to engage with both crafting and trading systems. This approach will foster an active, interconnected player-driven economy from the earliest levels onward.
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Issue: The current system in place does not effectively encourage players to craft beyond their own needs or participate meaningfully in the early-game economy. There is a lack of tangible motivation and feedback, resulting in players simply equipping themselves and moving on or becoming disinterested , rather than engaging in ongoing economic activity or trade. Crafting is not sufficiently accessible or rewarding at lower levels, making it uncommon for players to produce adequate armor for themselves, let alone surplus items for the market - or to be able to explore different crafting disciplines. Additionally, there are no clear, standardized systems that guide players toward economic participation, nor is there a natural progression that encourages specialization or collaboration as crafting becomes more complex. Without these incentives and structures, there is little reason for players to transport goods, trade materials, or contribute to a player-driven economy. To fix this, the system needs to be redesigned to provide clear progression, accessible early crafting opportunities, and meaningful rewards for participation in trade and group efforts. This will help establish a thriving, interconnected economy from the earliest stages of gameplay.
Proposal: Revamping the Crafting and Economy System
To address the lack of meaningful economic participation and motivation in the current system, I propose implementing a clearly structured crafting progression built around the acquisition of varying, location-specific reagents, essences, and newly-created Starred and Boss-Specific reagents. This system is designed to foster trade, encourage exploration, and support a thriving early and late-game economy.
Core System Features
1. Biome and Location-Specific Reagents:
- While some basic, low level reagents will still be available at Vendors, new crafting materials or reagents will be tied to [Specific] biomes, map locations, Points of Interest, or specific enemy types. This encourages players to explore diverse areas and interact with different zones, naturally promoting the movement of goods and players across the world.
2. Enemy and Boss-Dropped Reagents:
- Enemies rated 1-star or higher have a low chance to drop zone-specific reagents, with higher-star enemies providing different and higher quantity drop rates of these reagents.
- Named Mobs can also drop unique Boss-Reagents, required for higher-end crafting.
- At level 25 and above, world and event bosses will drop unique reagents and unique essences also particular to their biome and type, incentivizing group play and participation in large-scale events.
3. Tiered Crafting Progression:
Levels 0-9: Recipes here only require basic reagents: 1 [Generic/Any] reagent at First Tier, 1 [Local] at Second Tier, and 2 [Local] at Third Tier. No more than FIVE artisan disciplines are needed, and crafting can be performed at any bench, provided materials are transported there. This encourages early player trade, travel and open market activity without excessive barriers.
Levels 10-19: Recipes require reagents from 1-star or above foes, 2 [Local] at First Tier, 2 [Local] and 2 [Specific] at Second Tier, and 3 [Local] and 3 [Specific] at Third Tier, and 5-15 biome specific essences, involving no more than SIX artisan disciplines. This creates a moderate jump in complexity and value, pushing players to collaborate or specialize.
Levels 20-25: Recipes require reagents from 3-star foes or above, 5 [Local], 5 [Specific] and 1 exotic item at First Tier, 10 [Specific] and 2 exotic items at Second Tier, and 15 [Specific] reagents and 5 exotic items at Third Tier, additionally 20-60 biome specific essences, with no more than SEVEN artisan disciplines involved. This stage drives deeper specialization and group efforts, as well as trade for hard-to-get materials.
Level 25+: Recipes here require reagents exclusively from named event bosses and unique essences from world bosses, with MORE than EIGHT artisan involvements and substantial material needs. This tier is designed for massive-scale cooperation and supports a high-value, late-game market.
4. Early Crafting Accessibility:
- All items crafted at levels 0-9 First Tier will now require significantly fewer materials, making early crafting much more accessible. No more 27-50 bones for each creature and no available spawns.
- Item rarities above Uncommon will be MUCH harder to obtain than they were at Phase III drop; these higher rarities will now be the result of lucky drops, collective player effort, or late-game activities, making them valuable hot commodities.
- When players do get a Common harvest proc, it should yield enough materials to craft the 0-9 First Tier item once per trip (That's 16-18 trips out of town to be fully geared). [At Phase III drop, players reached level 10 long before they ever became 30% equipped.]
- As item rarity increases, the amount of materials gathered on a successful harvest should decrease moderately and noticeably, requiring multiple harvesting sessions spread over weeks or even months (assuming no bonuses are used).
- In summary, the rarer the item, the less material is gained from each harvest, making high-rarity items both scarce and valuable. At drop, it was far too easy to acquire Heroic+ items, as little as two days grinding mats for Heroic.
Benefits of the System:
- Clear Progression: A standardized and easy-to-understand system helps players set goals and see their growth.
- Encouraged Trade: Early accessibility and the need for specific reagents from various areas drive trade between players and regions, rather than self-sufficiency alone.
- Exploration & Group Play: Tying most reagents and essences to enemies, bosses, and locations incentivizes exploration and participation in world events.
- Specialization & Collaboration: Players will now be able to equip a full set of common First Tier gear before reaching level 10, making early progression smoother and more accessible. However, as players advance, obtaining high-end materials will become increasingly challenging, requiring significant time investment or specialized artisan skills. This will fostering a collaborative and competitive economy.
What else is new:
Update Named Mobs to spawn twice as quickly as before, but now each one will have at least three different possible spawn locations and may also follow patrol routes. This change is designed to encourage ongoing exploration, promote competition, and ensure more players have access to unique reagents and encounters, creating a dynamic world where hunting named mobs is always rewarding and unpredictable.
Additionally, Named Mob Gear rebalance. It is no longer strictly superior to standard gear, but instead aligns with crafted gear in terms of base power. However, named mob items will now feature unique and helpful stats—such as added mana regeneration, special boons, or unexpected stat buffs. This means players will seek out specific bosses to obtain gear that complements their chosen builds, rather than simply chasing guaranteed upgrades, adding depth and variety to both gameplay and the in-game economy. Gone are the days of mages farming physical Greatswords because it's a Best In Slot.Conclusion:
This proposal directly addresses the current shortcomings by replacing the stagnant crafting and economic system with a dynamic, layered structure that motivates players at every stage to participate in trade, travel, and teamwork. By making crafted items and the economy integral to progression, the game world will feel more alive, interconnected, and rewarding.
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Honorable mentioned suggested/ideas:
-Attack and cast speed should not be penalized as heavily as power attributes. Similarly, mana and other quality-of-life upgrades should not face major penalties either. Doubling your attack speed shouldn't be impossible to achieve, but it should require giving up some power in return. This trade-off would let players use auto-attacks more effectively and encourage a wider variety of playstyles—going beyond just chaining skill combos. I’ll provide more details on this topic in my upcoming class rework feedback.
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-Anvil does not have enough options for low level farms, and lacks the same density as the Riverlands. There needs to be areas where people can gather up large groups of enemies, especially lower level - and farm them in a rotation without waiting for a timer.
-Anvil Lacks a good distribution of varied challenges out in the open, such as areas in the open with multiple stars or bosses mixed in.
Comments
Fixed
As for the topic itself. Yes, good suggestion. Sadly, Steven doesn't care about them. He just wants the core premise of what you don't like, so that the devs can try their 5th attempt at fixing what's broken.
Economy is broken, so we're just waiting for that great 5th fix. Or is it 10th already? I've lost count.
I also think having a marketplace open from day 1 would really help player engagement in the economy. Many players are uncomfortable posting in shout or trade channels, but would engage if there were a marketplace available. It would also help if we had storage near the crafting benches in starter zones.
I can help you strategize best ways to farm mobs, as there is a really neat trick to do high volume. You can pm on discord, same username.
As for market, I don't think stalls are the right way to go. They do however need a proper trade channel instead of the char window only. I'll cover that in more depth later.
I mean, same. But at the same time- AI is a fantastic tool if you want to be efficient and don't rely on it exclusively.
I write notes on break, and paragraphs. Word them myself, and then use AI to condense it because most people are lazy and won't read long posts, no matter how detailed they are. I then proof read on my own, and with others. After peer review is done, I submit.
If you avoid AI, you make as well avoid slack, or other work efficiency tools for collaboration.
But in the end, it's all about how much you rely on it vs actually thinking freely for yourself.
But I'm just dumb-stubborn like that. AI just feels wrong to me so far.
I mean, you do you. People said the same thing about search engines when they came out, and now everyone uses them. So it's a pretty mute point.
But if you want to contribute more to the post itself and stay on topic, that's cool too 😄
I've also talked about almost every point in your OP before, which is exactly why I said that the OP was good, so it's a real shame it'll be ignored
That's an interesting take. I've put several pretty large feedback posts like this and pretty much all of them have been implemented.
I'm sorry that's your experience so far though.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxqh8o3WklIEChBpUCUstdsOSeWOEeulsF?si=fDABPhOUKTK_YQu1
I've mostly been giving ideas based on complaints and have seen the same from a ton of other people, so now I'll just follow Steven's words and only complain
They've also expressed countless times moreover, on and off livestream that they want feedback and ideas. There's entire threads they themselves made for it, and thats also what PTR surveys etc are for.
Yep, which is exactly why it was somewhat surprising to hear Steven say that.
But so far, all my feedback has not in fact been aligning with their vision, even though I've been trying to match it to the vision, so I hope you're more lucky (as you claim to be) and your feedback gets implemented, cause your ideas are almost the same as mine
Exactly. One of the weirdest things about Ashes right now is the absurdly sudden jump of level-based power, nullifying all prior progress.
This isn't just an AoC thing. It's a software development thing in general. I constantly have to tell my users to give me problems, not solutions. End users do not know the systems, the tools or any of the background variables.
What is helpful is to provide high level suggestions that fill in the context around the technical problems, so suggestions aren't useless, as long as they are general ideas and not specific wants. I just included one at the end of my 2-week survey. The testers have consistently proven in multiple phases that the desire for personal progression outweighs everything else. If you have 2 primary progression loops, both have to be on equal footing and as it stands, crafting is community gated while grinding is not.
Two solutions that could be used are massively increasing the XP gains from professions so that it can level on-par with grinding or completely decouple crafting progression from settlement progression. I wouldn't include this in feedback because I don't know how feasible they are to implement.