So, this thread is about how we would like to see PvE, not how we expect it to be. Most of the following is not what I expect to see, but is what I would want to see regardless.
So, first of all, for I would want to see basically all overland (not dungeon, not underrealm, not ocean or island) content be specifically for solo players. The idea here is that this is the default content for all players to go to if they have nothing else to do. Solo players should not have instanced content at all (other than story content), as unlike group or raid content, if you are instanced in solo content you are literally alone and that shouldn't happen in an MMO.
There should be enough of this content that players don't need to fight over specific locations.
Every cluster of mobs in this area should have a chance of spawning a mini-boss, but still aimed at solo players. This gives people something to actually fight over here. Rather than fighting over a farming spot like in BDO, you only really have a reason to fight when there is a mini-boss spawn. This way, if you lose that fight, you still have somewhere to farm, you just missed out on the mini-boss.
Next you have underrealm content, which I would like to see basically the same as overland content, except aimed at a small group of 3 or 4 players, rather than solo content.
then you move up to group and raid content. For this, there are four distinct types of content I would like to see.
First, I'd like it to start out in dungeons. The dungeons in the game should all be fairly large, and should avoid being linear so as to facilitate groups and raids of players running in to each other somewhat unexpectedly. There should be separate dungeons for group content and raid content, in fairly separate locations so as to not have a raid of players needing to run through group content in order to get to where they want to be.
Much like solo content, this content should see all clusters of mobs have a chance to spawn a mini-boss, but there should also be some specific actual boss encounters spread throughout all dungeons.
These dungeons should also have 3 or 4 bosses that are instanced off. These encounters are the more script heavy encounters in the game, both for single groups and raids.
To me, the rewards for instanced content should be the same items (1 drop for group content, 5 drops for raids), but there should be one instanced raid per dungeon that also drops an item (the mobs head, perhaps) that needs to be transported back to a metropolis via the caravan system within an hour of the encounter being killed - and the game should put up a server wide message with information detailing where the mob was killed, who looted the item, what guild they were from, etc - so that anyone wishing to contest the guild and try and claim this item from the guild has the information they need to attempt to do so.
Since this item is being transported via the caravan system, any attempt by others to take it will not be subject to corruption. This stands the chance to put the rewards of that kill up for even more PvP contesting than it would if the encounter were simply an open world raid encounter.
The second form of content I would want to see for both group and raid content are two distinct types of overland bosses. The first is the standard PvP game boss - Red Dragon for those that played Archeage, Karanda for those that played BDO). There should be an area around the boss that acts as a Battleground, so that PvP in the area is not subject to corruption. There should also be some mechanism in place to make these encounters harder in the absence of PvP, as my long standing frustration with all such encounters is how hard they are when there is appropriate opposition, yet how basic they are when there is not - there is no real middle ground with these encounters, in my somewhat substantial experience.
As a content type, this is great when there is PvP around it. It is a more "pure" form of large scale PvP than a siege could ever be, and so imo should be a mainstay of content in a game like Ashes.
Then the third type I would like to see is a form of open world encounter similar to the above, but where those that are engaged with the target are not subject to PvP at all. This could be in the form of a cage or some other device - players in their groups or raids (content depending) can fight over having the right to enter the cage, but once that cage has been entered, that group or raid has a singular pull of the encounter without interference from other guilds. Should you fail, you are kicked out of the cage (or respawn out of it), and the fight to see who can go next is back on.
The point of this content is simply because I like it. This content type has resulted in both the best and worst I've ever felt playing an MMO (killing an encounter in front of a guild that is literally helpless to do anything to stop you, and another guild killing an encounter in front of us while we are literally helpless top stop them). This this content type is both subject to potential mass PvP, and is also able to be curated to be very difficult for a single raid, it is my opinion that this content type is where the best items (or materials to make the best items) in the game should come from.
The fourth form of content I would like to see, both for groups and raids, is a system somewhat similar to how Path of Exile does it's map system, but with some key differences.
What this would be is that in dungeons (group and raid) there is a mechanism where players can insert specific items (henceforth known as McGuffins - as what the items actually are is irrelevant, it is their function and properties that matter) in order to open up an instance with specific properties. These McGuffins can drop from any non-instanced content at all in the world even solo content (making it well worth farming). They should be fairly rare - the sort of thing you may find one of after 10 - 20 hours of farming. These items should also be classified as raw materials in regards to dropping them when killed, and they can be freely traded.
There should be four or five types of these McGuffins, and it should require one of each in order to open up an instance. As well as being a specific type, each McGuffin should have a specific alteration to the content that it performs. This could be that it adds a fire type modifier to all encounters in this instance, or it makes all encounters in the instance undead, or any number of other potential modifier to the content.
These instances should have a non-respawning base population that includes some mini-bosses, and a single boss encounter (though there could be modifiers on McGuffins to alter this).
The device that the McGuffins get placed in so that the instance opens up should be located at the end of each dungeon from the first form of group/raid content I talked about above (group dungeon to open up group instances, raid dungeon to open up raid instances). Additionally, gaining access to this device should require the timed transportation of specific items found in the dungeon to the device. These items should be located behind/near/under the various actual bosses in the dungeon in question (not mini-bosses). The timer on these items should require co-operation of multiple groups for the group dungeons to open up group instances, or multiple raids in the raid dungeons to open up raid instances. This forces an amount of co-operation, but in an area in which PvP is fully active, and players are likely to have fairly valuable items on them that could drop if killed (McGuffins).
Once open, the device that groups or raids can place McGuffins in so that they open up an instance should remain in the world for an hour, and should be able to be used by anyone with appropriate McGuffins, but only once every 5 minutes. This means access to these instances is subject to PvP in terms of farming McGuffins, co-operation in terms of opening up the device, and further PvP while waiting for the device to be able to be used - to me, that is as true to the concept of an MMO as any reasonable player could ever ask (I know not everyone here is reasonable).
---
What all of the above would result in as far as group and raid play is concerned is a game where the starting point of any group or raid session is an open dungeon with full PvP, yet still subject to corruption. Within this dungeon setting, you have actual decisions to make as to whether you attack other groups or raids, or work with other groups or raids to attain a common goal that neither of you are likely to be able to reach by yourself. This dungeon also has a few instances spread around that contain the second most detailed, curated content in the game, and the McGuffin system.
All of this content is essentially starter content that gears groups and raids up, and gives them actual content to do several times a week (needed for a raid guild to stay together).
That dungeon content then feeds in to the two overland content types from above, where the real competition in the game is to be found. This is the content that guilds aspire to, rather than content in dungeons that -while not quite a given - is generally able to be accessed most of the time.
To me, that is how you put PvE content in a game where you want PvP to matter, but you still want players that want PvE to be able to play the game in a way they are content with.
This is an interesting question, what do you do when you have all the best gear and are not interested in the politics aspect of the game. The true endgame as we know right now would be to become a "Royal", that is mayor of a metropolis node or castle, since those are the most prestigious positions a player can have in game. However, this is not feasible or interesting for most players.
We also know that legendary items will be the most powerful in game, but will also be super rare because of drop chances and difficulty to craft, so this will also not be feasible for most players. I remember Steven mentioning "tiers" of gear, and how you would have to replace lower tiers with higher tiers, but we don't know the context for this. I'm not sure if this will be from content released over time, or from the process of leveling up and moving from dungeons to raids to legendary world bosses.
We should expect new content to be released over time tho, and we know that Intrepid Studios is always keeping that in mind, but how quickly and often should we expect this?
I expect that once every castle is owned and there are the 5 metropolises on your server, that you will most likely have the highest difficulty PvE content available, and that you will be able to get the "best" gear. However, you will not have ALL the content available, since new things will appear with the destruction of nodes and the leveling of others. So we can have different content, but will it be "more rewarding" than the content that you already have? I expect to get different rewards, maybe some new crafting recipes and gear/ weapons with different types of stats, but that this gear will be at the same level as other gear from other content of the same level.
So, this thread is about how we would like to see PvE, not how we expect it to be. Most of the following is not what I expect to see, but is what I would want to see regardless.
So, first of all, for I would want to see basically all overland (not dungeon, not underrealm, not ocean or island) content be specifically for solo players. The idea here is that this is the default content for all players to go to if they have nothing else to do. Solo players should not have instanced content at all (other than story content), as unlike group or raid content, if you are instanced in solo content you are literally alone and that shouldn't happen in an MMO.
There should be enough of this content that players don't need to fight over specific locations.
Every cluster of mobs in this area should have a chance of spawning a mini-boss, but still aimed at solo players. This gives people something to actually fight over here. Rather than fighting over a farming spot like in BDO, you only really have a reason to fight when there is a mini-boss spawn. This way, if you lose that fight, you still have somewhere to farm, you just missed out on the mini-boss.
Next you have underrealm content, which I would like to see basically the same as overland content, except aimed at a small group of 3 or 4 players, rather than solo content.
then you move up to group and raid content. For this, there are four distinct types of content I would like to see.
First, I'd like it to start out in dungeons. The dungeons in the game should all be fairly large, and should avoid being linear so as to facilitate groups and raids of players running in to each other somewhat unexpectedly. There should be separate dungeons for group content and raid content, in fairly separate locations so as to not have a raid of players needing to run through group content in order to get to where they want to be.
Much like solo content, this content should see all clusters of mobs have a chance to spawn a mini-boss, but there should also be some specific actual boss encounters spread throughout all dungeons.
These dungeons should also have 3 or 4 bosses that are instanced off. These encounters are the more script heavy encounters in the game, both for single groups and raids.
To me, the rewards for instanced content should be the same items (1 drop for group content, 5 drops for raids), but there should be one instanced raid per dungeon that also drops an item (the mobs head, perhaps) that needs to be transported back to a metropolis via the caravan system within an hour of the encounter being killed - and the game should put up a server wide message with information detailing where the mob was killed, who looted the item, what guild they were from, etc - so that anyone wishing to contest the guild and try and claim this item from the guild has the information they need to attempt to do so.
Since this item is being transported via the caravan system, any attempt by others to take it will not be subject to corruption. This stands the chance to put the rewards of that kill up for even more PvP contesting than it would if the encounter were simply an open world raid encounter.
The second form of content I would want to see for both group and raid content are two distinct types of overland bosses. The first is the standard PvP game boss - Red Dragon for those that played Archeage, Karanda for those that played BDO). There should be an area around the boss that acts as a Battleground, so that PvP in the area is not subject to corruption. There should also be some mechanism in place to make these encounters harder in the absence of PvP, as my long standing frustration with all such encounters is how hard they are when there is appropriate opposition, yet how basic they are when there is not - there is no real middle ground with these encounters, in my somewhat substantial experience.
As a content type, this is great when there is PvP around it. It is a more "pure" form of large scale PvP than a siege could ever be, and so imo should be a mainstay of content in a game like Ashes.
Then the third type I would like to see is a form of open world encounter similar to the above, but where those that are engaged with the target are not subject to PvP at all. This could be in the form of a cage or some other device - players in their groups or raids (content depending) can fight over having the right to enter the cage, but once that cage has been entered, that group or raid has a singular pull of the encounter without interference from other guilds. Should you fail, you are kicked out of the cage (or respawn out of it), and the fight to see who can go next is back on.
The point of this content is simply because I like it. This content type has resulted in both the best and worst I've ever felt playing an MMO (killing an encounter in front of a guild that is literally helpless to do anything to stop you, and another guild killing an encounter in front of us while we are literally helpless top stop them). This this content type is both subject to potential mass PvP, and is also able to be curated to be very difficult for a single raid, it is my opinion that this content type is where the best items (or materials to make the best items) in the game should come from.
The fourth form of content I would like to see, both for groups and raids, is a system somewhat similar to how Path of Exile does it's map system, but with some key differences.
What this would be is that in dungeons (group and raid) there is a mechanism where players can insert specific items (henceforth known as McGuffins - as what the items actually are is irrelevant, it is their function and properties that matter) in order to open up an instance with specific properties. These McGuffins can drop from any non-instanced content at all in the world even solo content (making it well worth farming). They should be fairly rare - the sort of thing you may find one of after 10 - 20 hours of farming. These items should also be classified as raw materials in regards to dropping them when killed, and they can be freely traded.
There should be four or five types of these McGuffins, and it should require one of each in order to open up an instance. As well as being a specific type, each McGuffin should have a specific alteration to the content that it performs. This could be that it adds a fire type modifier to all encounters in this instance, or it makes all encounters in the instance undead, or any number of other potential modifier to the content.
These instances should have a non-respawning base population that includes some mini-bosses, and a single boss encounter (though there could be modifiers on McGuffins to alter this).
The device that the McGuffins get placed in so that the instance opens up should be located at the end of each dungeon from the first form of group/raid content I talked about above (group dungeon to open up group instances, raid dungeon to open up raid instances). Additionally, gaining access to this device should require the timed transportation of specific items found in the dungeon to the device. These items should be located behind/near/under the various actual bosses in the dungeon in question (not mini-bosses). The timer on these items should require co-operation of multiple groups for the group dungeons to open up group instances, or multiple raids in the raid dungeons to open up raid instances. This forces an amount of co-operation, but in an area in which PvP is fully active, and players are likely to have fairly valuable items on them that could drop if killed (McGuffins).
Once open, the device that groups or raids can place McGuffins in so that they open up an instance should remain in the world for an hour, and should be able to be used by anyone with appropriate McGuffins, but only once every 5 minutes. This means access to these instances is subject to PvP in terms of farming McGuffins, co-operation in terms of opening up the device, and further PvP while waiting for the device to be able to be used - to me, that is as true to the concept of an MMO as any reasonable player could ever ask (I know not everyone here is reasonable).
---
What all of the above would result in as far as group and raid play is concerned is a game where the starting point of any group or raid session is an open dungeon with full PvP, yet still subject to corruption. Within this dungeon setting, you have actual decisions to make as to whether you attack other groups or raids, or work with other groups or raids to attain a common goal that neither of you are likely to be able to reach by yourself. This dungeon also has a few instances spread around that contain the second most detailed, curated content in the game, and the McGuffin system.
All of this content is essentially starter content that gears groups and raids up, and gives them actual content to do several times a week (needed for a raid guild to stay together).
That dungeon content then feeds in to the two overland content types from above, where the real competition in the game is to be found. This is the content that guilds aspire to, rather than content in dungeons that -while not quite a given - is generally able to be accessed most of the time.
To me, that is how you put PvE content in a game where you want PvP to matter, but you still want players that want PvE to be able to play the game in a way they are content with.
I'm assuming access to a node's endgame is going to be gated behind citizenship. So, because you can lose progress, if your city falls, there is no real "end-game". You earn a short time in the end-game, to hit end-game content, but then you have to level up your city again, and are not in the end-game anymore.
So, this thread is about how we would like to see PvE, not how we expect it to be. Most of the following is not what I expect to see, but is what I would want to see regardless.
So, first of all, for I would want to see basically all overland (not dungeon, not underrealm, not ocean or island) content be specifically for solo players. The idea here is that this is the default content for all players to go to if they have nothing else to do. Solo players should not have instanced content at all (other than story content), as unlike group or raid content, if you are instanced in solo content you are literally alone and that shouldn't happen in an MMO.
There should be enough of this content that players don't need to fight over specific locations.
Every cluster of mobs in this area should have a chance of spawning a mini-boss, but still aimed at solo players. This gives people something to actually fight over here. Rather than fighting over a farming spot like in BDO, you only really have a reason to fight when there is a mini-boss spawn. This way, if you lose that fight, you still have somewhere to farm, you just missed out on the mini-boss.
Next you have underrealm content, which I would like to see basically the same as overland content, except aimed at a small group of 3 or 4 players, rather than solo content.
then you move up to group and raid content. For this, there are four distinct types of content I would like to see.
First, I'd like it to start out in dungeons. The dungeons in the game should all be fairly large, and should avoid being linear so as to facilitate groups and raids of players running in to each other somewhat unexpectedly. There should be separate dungeons for group content and raid content, in fairly separate locations so as to not have a raid of players needing to run through group content in order to get to where they want to be.
Much like solo content, this content should see all clusters of mobs have a chance to spawn a mini-boss, but there should also be some specific actual boss encounters spread throughout all dungeons.
These dungeons should also have 3 or 4 bosses that are instanced off. These encounters are the more script heavy encounters in the game, both for single groups and raids.
To me, the rewards for instanced content should be the same items (1 drop for group content, 5 drops for raids), but there should be one instanced raid per dungeon that also drops an item (the mobs head, perhaps) that needs to be transported back to a metropolis via the caravan system within an hour of the encounter being killed - and the game should put up a server wide message with information detailing where the mob was killed, who looted the item, what guild they were from, etc - so that anyone wishing to contest the guild and try and claim this item from the guild has the information they need to attempt to do so.
Since this item is being transported via the caravan system, any attempt by others to take it will not be subject to corruption. This stands the chance to put the rewards of that kill up for even more PvP contesting than it would if the encounter were simply an open world raid encounter.
The second form of content I would want to see for both group and raid content are two distinct types of overland bosses. The first is the standard PvP game boss - Red Dragon for those that played Archeage, Karanda for those that played BDO). There should be an area around the boss that acts as a Battleground, so that PvP in the area is not subject to corruption. There should also be some mechanism in place to make these encounters harder in the absence of PvP, as my long standing frustration with all such encounters is how hard they are when there is appropriate opposition, yet how basic they are when there is not - there is no real middle ground with these encounters, in my somewhat substantial experience.
As a content type, this is great when there is PvP around it. It is a more "pure" form of large scale PvP than a siege could ever be, and so imo should be a mainstay of content in a game like Ashes.
Then the third type I would like to see is a form of open world encounter similar to the above, but where those that are engaged with the target are not subject to PvP at all. This could be in the form of a cage or some other device - players in their groups or raids (content depending) can fight over having the right to enter the cage, but once that cage has been entered, that group or raid has a singular pull of the encounter without interference from other guilds. Should you fail, you are kicked out of the cage (or respawn out of it), and the fight to see who can go next is back on.
The point of this content is simply because I like it. This content type has resulted in both the best and worst I've ever felt playing an MMO (killing an encounter in front of a guild that is literally helpless to do anything to stop you, and another guild killing an encounter in front of us while we are literally helpless top stop them). This this content type is both subject to potential mass PvP, and is also able to be curated to be very difficult for a single raid, it is my opinion that this content type is where the best items (or materials to make the best items) in the game should come from.
The fourth form of content I would like to see, both for groups and raids, is a system somewhat similar to how Path of Exile does it's map system, but with some key differences.
What this would be is that in dungeons (group and raid) there is a mechanism where players can insert specific items (henceforth known as McGuffins - as what the items actually are is irrelevant, it is their function and properties that matter) in order to open up an instance with specific properties. These McGuffins can drop from any non-instanced content at all in the world even solo content (making it well worth farming). They should be fairly rare - the sort of thing you may find one of after 10 - 20 hours of farming. These items should also be classified as raw materials in regards to dropping them when killed, and they can be freely traded.
There should be four or five types of these McGuffins, and it should require one of each in order to open up an instance. As well as being a specific type, each McGuffin should have a specific alteration to the content that it performs. This could be that it adds a fire type modifier to all encounters in this instance, or it makes all encounters in the instance undead, or any number of other potential modifier to the content.
These instances should have a non-respawning base population that includes some mini-bosses, and a single boss encounter (though there could be modifiers on McGuffins to alter this).
The device that the McGuffins get placed in so that the instance opens up should be located at the end of each dungeon from the first form of group/raid content I talked about above (group dungeon to open up group instances, raid dungeon to open up raid instances). Additionally, gaining access to this device should require the timed transportation of specific items found in the dungeon to the device. These items should be located behind/near/under the various actual bosses in the dungeon in question (not mini-bosses). The timer on these items should require co-operation of multiple groups for the group dungeons to open up group instances, or multiple raids in the raid dungeons to open up raid instances. This forces an amount of co-operation, but in an area in which PvP is fully active, and players are likely to have fairly valuable items on them that could drop if killed (McGuffins).
Once open, the device that groups or raids can place McGuffins in so that they open up an instance should remain in the world for an hour, and should be able to be used by anyone with appropriate McGuffins, but only once every 5 minutes. This means access to these instances is subject to PvP in terms of farming McGuffins, co-operation in terms of opening up the device, and further PvP while waiting for the device to be able to be used - to me, that is as true to the concept of an MMO as any reasonable player could ever ask (I know not everyone here is reasonable).
---
What all of the above would result in as far as group and raid play is concerned is a game where the starting point of any group or raid session is an open dungeon with full PvP, yet still subject to corruption. Within this dungeon setting, you have actual decisions to make as to whether you attack other groups or raids, or work with other groups or raids to attain a common goal that neither of you are likely to be able to reach by yourself. This dungeon also has a few instances spread around that contain the second most detailed, curated content in the game, and the McGuffin system.
All of this content is essentially starter content that gears groups and raids up, and gives them actual content to do several times a week (needed for a raid guild to stay together).
That dungeon content then feeds in to the two overland content types from above, where the real competition in the game is to be found. This is the content that guilds aspire to, rather than content in dungeons that -while not quite a given - is generally able to be accessed most of the time.
To me, that is how you put PvE content in a game where you want PvP to matter, but you still want players that want PvE to be able to play the game in a way they are content with.
I'm okay giving this a quote (as big as it is) because it is pure fucking gold. I would play the shit out of this game right here.
Really like the ideas you presented Noaani. I would love to see the McGuffins concept implemented, (seems, as you said, to be easily incorporated with the hardmode ideas I was talking about, ie: certain McGuffins having a more difficult acquisition method, for greater modifiers).
I really wish people would stop pointing to it as an example of anything. If WoW is your only example, you have no example.
Do you say that because most people play it as a single-player game? If so, then that would apply to most MMORPGs on the market, and then you're dismissing the genre. (Which I would understand; part of the appeal of AoC is that it's different, but then you will struggle to find any game to use as comparison.) If that's not what you meant them I'm curious what it is.
I really wish people would stop pointing to it as an example of anything. If WoW is your only example, you have no example.
Do you say that because most people play it as a single-player game? If so, then that would apply to most MMORPGs on the market, and then you're dismissing the genre. (Which I would understand; part of the appeal of AoC is that it's different, but then you will struggle to find any game to use as comparison.) If that's not what you meant them I'm curious what it is.
Yeah.
While many other games are played in a similar way, none of them are taken to the extent WoW is (except maybe SWTOR, but does anyone actually consider that an MMO either?).
Some games encourage you to socialize a lot while others don't at all.
Have you played wow ascension? It blew my mind and is actually REALLY entertaining. I absolutely HATE blizzard, activision and WOW but this was a project well worth experiencing. Basically classless wow on one server and on the other a draft system that gives you 3 random abilities every 2 levels starting at lvl 10. Sometimes you are a hunter with healing abilities and other times you're stealthed backstabbing as a fury warrior. The community is also really great here. Ask a question in chat and you get 10 people answering you. Not something I will play for a long time but definitely a breath of fresh air compared to the heaping piles of shit that have come out.
Also, just watched that video you posted. I hope you understand how accurate that is. To the T of my experience with wow. Activision is utter trash.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I really wish people would stop pointing to it as an example of anything. If WoW is your only example, you have no example.
Do you say that because most people play it as a single-player game? If so, then that would apply to most MMORPGs on the market, and then you're dismissing the genre. (Which I would understand; part of the appeal of AoC is that it's different, but then you will struggle to find any game to use as comparison.) If that's not what you meant them I'm curious what it is.
Yeah.
While many other games are played in a similar way, none of them are taken to the extent WoW is (except maybe SWTOR, but does anyone actually consider that an MMO either?).
WoW is as much an MMO is Monster Hunter is imo.
That does not in any way match my experiences. I've spent a lot of time in WoW in group content, especially when I was in a really good guild and our focus was on raiding. Even these days, when I play the game very casually (mostly because my oldest daughter likes the game) I still engage in cooperation with other players even when I'm not formally grouped. I play a Disc Priest mostly and love tossing heals, shields, and buffs to strangers, especially when I see someone in a fight that seems about to die.
I play Monster Hunter World and have never interacted with another human being. This is like saying that ice cream is as much of a dessert as a cheese pizza. It's denying reality. You might not like WoW, and I'm not a huge fan either, but you are just plain inaccurate with your portrayal of it. You are objectively wrong.
If your point is that you wish that there was more in the game that required cooperation between players, I get that. But you're acting like there isn't even any way to do it and that's absurd, it's almost like you've never even played it.
I'm pretty sure Noaani's definition of mmo is 'whatever let's them be right at any given moment.' If WoW the top grossing mmorpg of all time doesn't count as an mmorpg.... Whatever their definition is doesn't have validity in general conversation outside of 'their opinion'.
I'm pretty sure Noaani's definition of mmo is 'whatever let's them be right at any given moment.' If WoW the top grossing mmorpg of all time doesn't count as an mmorpg.... Whatever their definition is doesn't have validity in general conversation outside of 'their opinion'.
If you want to consider a game where the bulk of the player base spend the bulk of their play time in lobby based content (LFG, LFR, arena), have at it.
Since my actual point in this Intrepid led derail is that an MMO is not as much about making friends as it is about having a game to play with friends, I don't much care if you disagree with what I do or do not consider an MMO.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Since my actual point in this Intrepid led derail is that an MMO is not as much about making friends as it is about having a game to play with friends, I don't much care if you disagree with what I do or do not consider an MMO.
I think this is totally fair and I'll definitely drop this side discussion. And I definitely agree with your first point.
I have made friends in MMOs before, but for the most part when I've teamed up with people on a regular basis, it was to hang out in a game with people in already knew in real life. I am sure that's the case for a lot of people.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2021
Hmmmn. I mean...
I typically hang with the people I meet in the Forums...and then, in the past ten years, via other social media channels.
And, in the past 8 years, with a contingent of EQNext/Landmark fans who have interest in similar designs - like Nodes and a dynamically changing world (and no endgame).
I hate grinding dungeons. With a passion.
Doing the exact same thing over and over for a bauble so i could move on to the next dungeon and do that same scripted encounter over, and over, and over... so I can do it in another one, and another one. WTH!? Who thought this crap up?
What a drag.
I guess that's why I've never maxed out lvl in wow until they made lvls basically meaningless. Once quests were done with and I had no more 'story' to discover, I was done. Hunt up a new novel and try not to get sucked into that addiction again.
If its there, I won't complain, I just wont participate.
I really don't care either way.
I'll be a Cleric supporting my guild buddies slaying goblins, stomping dragons, smiting undead with a glass of cab.
I hate grinding dungeons. With a passion.
Doing the exact same thing over and over for a bauble so i could move on to the next dungeon and do that same scripted encounter over, and over, and over... so I can do it in another one, and another one. WTH!? Who thought this crap up?
What a drag.
I guess that's why I've never maxed out lvl in wow until they made lvls basically meaningless. Once quests were done with and I had no more 'story' to discover, I was done. Hunt up a new novel and try not to get sucked into that addiction again.
If its there, I won't complain, I just wont participate.
I really don't care either way.
I'll be a Cleric supporting my guild buddies slaying goblins, stomping dragons, smiting undead with a glass of cab.
This is why end game content is best played with friends.
If you go bowling, it is better with friends than just joining some random team in some competition.
If you play golf, it's better if you play with friends than they and join in a round with people you dont know.
If you go to watch a ball game, it is better with friends than without.
Raiding is no different.
All of the above activities are fairly boring in and of themselves. Each of them is more repetitive than raiding, yet when you do any of them with friends, each of them can be a great way to spend time.
Any time someone says they dont like raiding due to anything specific to the act of raiding, it just makes me think the person in question isnt trying to raid with actual friends, they are trying to raid for the sake of raiding - and that is the wrong (as wrong as anything subjective can be) way to go about it.
This is why- to me - the best end game content is content that has the potential to put you and your friends in many different situations. That is what my somewhat long post about how I would like to see end game content be implemented is trying to achieve.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
I have this feeling like you aren't going to like AoC....
You don't play multiplayer games to socialize and make friends? Would you prefer lobby based content? Nobody else is here for that if so. Obviously Intrepid is not making a game limited to ONLY social interaction. Your response to the bowling reference isn't important because you missed the point completely. Nobody cares if you like bowling or not haha. The fact that you feel you are dragging people around by inviting them to content you enjoy is also ridiculous. You feel guilty for wasting someones time, in a game that, in its purest essence is a WASTE OF TIME? My mind is blown.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
That's cool.
Bowling isn't for you. You understand this.
Neither is raiding - for exactly the same reasons.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
I have this feeling like you aren't going to like AoC....
You don't play multiplayer games to socialize and make friends? Would you prefer lobby based content? Nobody else is here for that if so. Obviously Intrepid is not making a game limited to ONLY social interaction. Your response to the bowling reference isn't important because you missed the point completely. Nobody cares if you like bowling or not haha. The fact that you feel you are dragging people around by inviting them to content you enjoy is also ridiculous. You feel guilty for wasting someones time, in a game that, in its purest essence is a WASTE OF TIME? My mind is blown.
I should expect as much from a Tulnar.
I like to explore the game world, and you would have me trapped in a lobby, waiting wasting my time to access content! Preposterous! No, I want to roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill. And to be clear, even if I don't come to make friends it doesn't mean I don't make friends, or socialize. It's just that's not what draw me into these games. Cooperation if part of the fun, I just prefer when it comes out of spontaneous need. You see a bright opening to the surface and join a few clawed friends to risk the peril of the sun.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
I have this feeling like you aren't going to like AoC....
You don't play multiplayer games to socialize and make friends? Would you prefer lobby based content? Nobody else is here for that if so. Obviously Intrepid is not making a game limited to ONLY social interaction. Your response to the bowling reference isn't important because you missed the point completely. Nobody cares if you like bowling or not haha. The fact that you feel you are dragging people around by inviting them to content you enjoy is also ridiculous. You feel guilty for wasting someones time, in a game that, in its purest essence is a WASTE OF TIME? My mind is blown.
I should expect as much from a Tulnar.
I like to explore the game world, and you would have me trapped in a lobby, waiting wasting my time to access content! Preposterous! No, I want to roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill. And to be clear, even if I don't come to make friends it doesn't mean I don't make friends, or socialize. It's just that's not what draw me into these games. Cooperation if part of the fun, I just prefer when it comes out of spontaneous need. You see a bright opening to the surface and join a few clawed friends to risk the peril of the sun.
Honestly, I agree with Khronus here, AoC (and perhaps even MMO's in general) are maybe not the best genre for you.
While that spontaneous nature is something that does happen, MMO's are geared towards organization, not spontaneity. Look at Ashes, sieges, guild and node wars,
If you do indeed opt to play an MMO, you have to do so knowing that 50%+ of the game is not suited to you.
Again, if you're happy with that, more power to you - but if most of a game didn't cater to what I was looking for, I would play another game that was a better fit. To me, it seems like single player RPG's (Skyrim, Witcher etc) are more likely to provide the game play you want, as these are games you roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill, and socializing isn't a factor either way. These games seem like they would have close to 100% of the game being suited to you. Or even a game like Path of Exile, where exploration is always a factor.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
I have this feeling like you aren't going to like AoC....
You don't play multiplayer games to socialize and make friends? Would you prefer lobby based content? Nobody else is here for that if so. Obviously Intrepid is not making a game limited to ONLY social interaction. Your response to the bowling reference isn't important because you missed the point completely. Nobody cares if you like bowling or not haha. The fact that you feel you are dragging people around by inviting them to content you enjoy is also ridiculous. You feel guilty for wasting someones time, in a game that, in its purest essence is a WASTE OF TIME? My mind is blown.
I should expect as much from a Tulnar.
I like to explore the game world, and you would have me trapped in a lobby, waiting wasting my time to access content! Preposterous! No, I want to roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill. And to be clear, even if I don't come to make friends it doesn't mean I don't make friends, or socialize. It's just that's not what draw me into these games. Cooperation if part of the fun, I just prefer when it comes out of spontaneous need. You see a bright opening to the surface and join a few clawed friends to risk the peril of the sun.
While that spontaneous nature is something that does happen, MMO's are geared towards organization, not spontaneity. Look at Ashes, sieges, guild and node wars,
I disagree with this generalization. This may be how some people play the game, but others prefer to spontaneously do things that they want to do at the time. Do you feel like dueling? Go through your friends list and see if anyone online wants to duel. No one wants to duel? Then maybe work on crafting or another profession. Maybe on your way to gather some missing materials for crafting, you find out that a friendly guild is in a guild war with an enemy guild and you spontaneously offer to help them out. Etc...
Sure, big events generally need to be planned and scheduled, but the majority of gameplay is not like this unless it's a lobby MMO like WoW.
No, Noaani. For some of us the activity is the point of focus. I won't go bowling, even with my friends, because I find it especially boring. I prefer to do things on my own than dragging with me someone bored with it, who's only tagging along for company. If I want to do something I don't mind doing it with someone else who also enjoy it, but I'll not invite someone to have my fun ruined by feeling guilty of wasting their time.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
I have this feeling like you aren't going to like AoC....
You don't play multiplayer games to socialize and make friends? Would you prefer lobby based content? Nobody else is here for that if so. Obviously Intrepid is not making a game limited to ONLY social interaction. Your response to the bowling reference isn't important because you missed the point completely. Nobody cares if you like bowling or not haha. The fact that you feel you are dragging people around by inviting them to content you enjoy is also ridiculous. You feel guilty for wasting someones time, in a game that, in its purest essence is a WASTE OF TIME? My mind is blown.
I should expect as much from a Tulnar.
I like to explore the game world, and you would have me trapped in a lobby, waiting wasting my time to access content! Preposterous! No, I want to roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill. And to be clear, even if I don't come to make friends it doesn't mean I don't make friends, or socialize. It's just that's not what draw me into these games. Cooperation if part of the fun, I just prefer when it comes out of spontaneous need. You see a bright opening to the surface and join a few clawed friends to risk the peril of the sun.
While that spontaneous nature is something that does happen, MMO's are geared towards organization, not spontaneity. Look at Ashes, sieges, guild and node wars,
I disagree with this generalization. This may be how some people play the game, but others prefer to spontaneously do things that they want to do at the time. Do you feel like dueling? Go through your friends list and see if anyone online wants to duel. No one wants to duel? Then maybe work on crafting or another profession. Maybe on your way to gather some missing materials for crafting, you find out that a friendly guild is in a guild war with an enemy guild and you spontaneously offer to help them out. Etc...
Sure, big events generally need to be planned and scheduled, but the majority of gameplay is not like this unless it's a lobby MMO like WoW.
I'm not super sure I understand what it is you disagree with.
I said that MMO's may not be for a player akin to what is being discussed, because such a large amount of the genres content is not geared towards them - I also said that if they are happy with this, then more power to them.
You agreed with me in regards to much of the content not being suited, and yet are suggesting that if they want to play an MMO anyway, more power to them.
It would seem to me that you actually agree with me, not disagree.
Comments
So, first of all, for I would want to see basically all overland (not dungeon, not underrealm, not ocean or island) content be specifically for solo players. The idea here is that this is the default content for all players to go to if they have nothing else to do. Solo players should not have instanced content at all (other than story content), as unlike group or raid content, if you are instanced in solo content you are literally alone and that shouldn't happen in an MMO.
There should be enough of this content that players don't need to fight over specific locations.
Every cluster of mobs in this area should have a chance of spawning a mini-boss, but still aimed at solo players. This gives people something to actually fight over here. Rather than fighting over a farming spot like in BDO, you only really have a reason to fight when there is a mini-boss spawn. This way, if you lose that fight, you still have somewhere to farm, you just missed out on the mini-boss.
Next you have underrealm content, which I would like to see basically the same as overland content, except aimed at a small group of 3 or 4 players, rather than solo content.
then you move up to group and raid content. For this, there are four distinct types of content I would like to see.
First, I'd like it to start out in dungeons. The dungeons in the game should all be fairly large, and should avoid being linear so as to facilitate groups and raids of players running in to each other somewhat unexpectedly. There should be separate dungeons for group content and raid content, in fairly separate locations so as to not have a raid of players needing to run through group content in order to get to where they want to be.
Much like solo content, this content should see all clusters of mobs have a chance to spawn a mini-boss, but there should also be some specific actual boss encounters spread throughout all dungeons.
These dungeons should also have 3 or 4 bosses that are instanced off. These encounters are the more script heavy encounters in the game, both for single groups and raids.
To me, the rewards for instanced content should be the same items (1 drop for group content, 5 drops for raids), but there should be one instanced raid per dungeon that also drops an item (the mobs head, perhaps) that needs to be transported back to a metropolis via the caravan system within an hour of the encounter being killed - and the game should put up a server wide message with information detailing where the mob was killed, who looted the item, what guild they were from, etc - so that anyone wishing to contest the guild and try and claim this item from the guild has the information they need to attempt to do so.
Since this item is being transported via the caravan system, any attempt by others to take it will not be subject to corruption. This stands the chance to put the rewards of that kill up for even more PvP contesting than it would if the encounter were simply an open world raid encounter.
The second form of content I would want to see for both group and raid content are two distinct types of overland bosses. The first is the standard PvP game boss - Red Dragon for those that played Archeage, Karanda for those that played BDO). There should be an area around the boss that acts as a Battleground, so that PvP in the area is not subject to corruption. There should also be some mechanism in place to make these encounters harder in the absence of PvP, as my long standing frustration with all such encounters is how hard they are when there is appropriate opposition, yet how basic they are when there is not - there is no real middle ground with these encounters, in my somewhat substantial experience.
As a content type, this is great when there is PvP around it. It is a more "pure" form of large scale PvP than a siege could ever be, and so imo should be a mainstay of content in a game like Ashes.
Then the third type I would like to see is a form of open world encounter similar to the above, but where those that are engaged with the target are not subject to PvP at all. This could be in the form of a cage or some other device - players in their groups or raids (content depending) can fight over having the right to enter the cage, but once that cage has been entered, that group or raid has a singular pull of the encounter without interference from other guilds. Should you fail, you are kicked out of the cage (or respawn out of it), and the fight to see who can go next is back on.
The point of this content is simply because I like it. This content type has resulted in both the best and worst I've ever felt playing an MMO (killing an encounter in front of a guild that is literally helpless to do anything to stop you, and another guild killing an encounter in front of us while we are literally helpless top stop them). This this content type is both subject to potential mass PvP, and is also able to be curated to be very difficult for a single raid, it is my opinion that this content type is where the best items (or materials to make the best items) in the game should come from.
The fourth form of content I would like to see, both for groups and raids, is a system somewhat similar to how Path of Exile does it's map system, but with some key differences.
What this would be is that in dungeons (group and raid) there is a mechanism where players can insert specific items (henceforth known as McGuffins - as what the items actually are is irrelevant, it is their function and properties that matter) in order to open up an instance with specific properties. These McGuffins can drop from any non-instanced content at all in the world even solo content (making it well worth farming). They should be fairly rare - the sort of thing you may find one of after 10 - 20 hours of farming. These items should also be classified as raw materials in regards to dropping them when killed, and they can be freely traded.
There should be four or five types of these McGuffins, and it should require one of each in order to open up an instance. As well as being a specific type, each McGuffin should have a specific alteration to the content that it performs. This could be that it adds a fire type modifier to all encounters in this instance, or it makes all encounters in the instance undead, or any number of other potential modifier to the content.
These instances should have a non-respawning base population that includes some mini-bosses, and a single boss encounter (though there could be modifiers on McGuffins to alter this).
The device that the McGuffins get placed in so that the instance opens up should be located at the end of each dungeon from the first form of group/raid content I talked about above (group dungeon to open up group instances, raid dungeon to open up raid instances). Additionally, gaining access to this device should require the timed transportation of specific items found in the dungeon to the device. These items should be located behind/near/under the various actual bosses in the dungeon in question (not mini-bosses). The timer on these items should require co-operation of multiple groups for the group dungeons to open up group instances, or multiple raids in the raid dungeons to open up raid instances. This forces an amount of co-operation, but in an area in which PvP is fully active, and players are likely to have fairly valuable items on them that could drop if killed (McGuffins).
Once open, the device that groups or raids can place McGuffins in so that they open up an instance should remain in the world for an hour, and should be able to be used by anyone with appropriate McGuffins, but only once every 5 minutes. This means access to these instances is subject to PvP in terms of farming McGuffins, co-operation in terms of opening up the device, and further PvP while waiting for the device to be able to be used - to me, that is as true to the concept of an MMO as any reasonable player could ever ask (I know not everyone here is reasonable).
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What all of the above would result in as far as group and raid play is concerned is a game where the starting point of any group or raid session is an open dungeon with full PvP, yet still subject to corruption. Within this dungeon setting, you have actual decisions to make as to whether you attack other groups or raids, or work with other groups or raids to attain a common goal that neither of you are likely to be able to reach by yourself. This dungeon also has a few instances spread around that contain the second most detailed, curated content in the game, and the McGuffin system.
All of this content is essentially starter content that gears groups and raids up, and gives them actual content to do several times a week (needed for a raid guild to stay together).
That dungeon content then feeds in to the two overland content types from above, where the real competition in the game is to be found. This is the content that guilds aspire to, rather than content in dungeons that -while not quite a given - is generally able to be accessed most of the time.
To me, that is how you put PvE content in a game where you want PvP to matter, but you still want players that want PvE to be able to play the game in a way they are content with.
We also know that legendary items will be the most powerful in game, but will also be super rare because of drop chances and difficulty to craft, so this will also not be feasible for most players. I remember Steven mentioning "tiers" of gear, and how you would have to replace lower tiers with higher tiers, but we don't know the context for this. I'm not sure if this will be from content released over time, or from the process of leveling up and moving from dungeons to raids to legendary world bosses.
We should expect new content to be released over time tho, and we know that Intrepid Studios is always keeping that in mind, but how quickly and often should we expect this?
I expect that once every castle is owned and there are the 5 metropolises on your server, that you will most likely have the highest difficulty PvE content available, and that you will be able to get the "best" gear. However, you will not have ALL the content available, since new things will appear with the destruction of nodes and the leveling of others. So we can have different content, but will it be "more rewarding" than the content that you already have? I expect to get different rewards, maybe some new crafting recipes and gear/ weapons with different types of stats, but that this gear will be at the same level as other gear from other content of the same level.
Beautiful
I'm okay giving this a quote (as big as it is) because it is pure fucking gold. I would play the shit out of this game right here.
I thought the enemies were the endgame?
Nah, endgame is what keeps me and my friends playing your game, rather than your competition.
Friends are a given.
You move with friends from game to game, looking for that good endgame. You dont go game to game looking for friends.
Ill be your friend @Vaknar
Look at WoW Classic compared to WoW Retail.
Some games encourage you to socialize a lot while others don't at all.
I really wish people would stop pointing to it as an example of anything. If WoW is your only example, you have no example.
Do you say that because most people play it as a single-player game? If so, then that would apply to most MMORPGs on the market, and then you're dismissing the genre. (Which I would understand; part of the appeal of AoC is that it's different, but then you will struggle to find any game to use as comparison.) If that's not what you meant them I'm curious what it is.
Yeah.
While many other games are played in a similar way, none of them are taken to the extent WoW is (except maybe SWTOR, but does anyone actually consider that an MMO either?).
WoW is as much an MMO is Monster Hunter is imo.
Have you played wow ascension? It blew my mind and is actually REALLY entertaining. I absolutely HATE blizzard, activision and WOW but this was a project well worth experiencing. Basically classless wow on one server and on the other a draft system that gives you 3 random abilities every 2 levels starting at lvl 10. Sometimes you are a hunter with healing abilities and other times you're stealthed backstabbing as a fury warrior. The community is also really great here. Ask a question in chat and you get 10 people answering you. Not something I will play for a long time but definitely a breath of fresh air compared to the heaping piles of shit that have come out.
Also, just watched that video you posted. I hope you understand how accurate that is. To the T of my experience with wow. Activision is utter trash.
That does not in any way match my experiences. I've spent a lot of time in WoW in group content, especially when I was in a really good guild and our focus was on raiding. Even these days, when I play the game very casually (mostly because my oldest daughter likes the game) I still engage in cooperation with other players even when I'm not formally grouped. I play a Disc Priest mostly and love tossing heals, shields, and buffs to strangers, especially when I see someone in a fight that seems about to die.
I play Monster Hunter World and have never interacted with another human being. This is like saying that ice cream is as much of a dessert as a cheese pizza. It's denying reality. You might not like WoW, and I'm not a huge fan either, but you are just plain inaccurate with your portrayal of it. You are objectively wrong.
If your point is that you wish that there was more in the game that required cooperation between players, I get that. But you're acting like there isn't even any way to do it and that's absurd, it's almost like you've never even played it.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
If you want to consider a game where the bulk of the player base spend the bulk of their play time in lobby based content (LFG, LFR, arena), have at it.
Since my actual point in this Intrepid led derail is that an MMO is not as much about making friends as it is about having a game to play with friends, I don't much care if you disagree with what I do or do not consider an MMO.
I have made friends in MMOs before, but for the most part when I've teamed up with people on a regular basis, it was to hang out in a game with people in already knew in real life. I am sure that's the case for a lot of people.
I typically hang with the people I meet in the Forums...and then, in the past ten years, via other social media channels.
And, in the past 8 years, with a contingent of EQNext/Landmark fans who have interest in similar designs - like Nodes and a dynamically changing world (and no endgame).
Doing the exact same thing over and over for a bauble so i could move on to the next dungeon and do that same scripted encounter over, and over, and over... so I can do it in another one, and another one. WTH!? Who thought this crap up?
What a drag.
I guess that's why I've never maxed out lvl in wow until they made lvls basically meaningless. Once quests were done with and I had no more 'story' to discover, I was done. Hunt up a new novel and try not to get sucked into that addiction again.
If its there, I won't complain, I just wont participate.
I really don't care either way.
I'll be a Cleric supporting my guild buddies slaying goblins, stomping dragons, smiting undead with a glass of cab.
This is why end game content is best played with friends.
If you go bowling, it is better with friends than just joining some random team in some competition.
If you play golf, it's better if you play with friends than they and join in a round with people you dont know.
If you go to watch a ball game, it is better with friends than without.
Raiding is no different.
All of the above activities are fairly boring in and of themselves. Each of them is more repetitive than raiding, yet when you do any of them with friends, each of them can be a great way to spend time.
Any time someone says they dont like raiding due to anything specific to the act of raiding, it just makes me think the person in question isnt trying to raid with actual friends, they are trying to raid for the sake of raiding - and that is the wrong (as wrong as anything subjective can be) way to go about it.
This is why- to me - the best end game content is content that has the potential to put you and your friends in many different situations. That is what my somewhat long post about how I would like to see end game content be implemented is trying to achieve.
I don't play games to make friends, even if they are "massively multi-player". Anyone saying that's the point of a mmo, to socialized, is reducing the scope of the genre. Maybe it fits their attraction to the genre, but wanting to limit it to mainly that aspect is myopic.
I have this feeling like you aren't going to like AoC....
You don't play multiplayer games to socialize and make friends? Would you prefer lobby based content? Nobody else is here for that if so. Obviously Intrepid is not making a game limited to ONLY social interaction. Your response to the bowling reference isn't important because you missed the point completely. Nobody cares if you like bowling or not haha. The fact that you feel you are dragging people around by inviting them to content you enjoy is also ridiculous. You feel guilty for wasting someones time, in a game that, in its purest essence is a WASTE OF TIME? My mind is blown.
I should expect as much from a Tulnar.
That's cool.
Bowling isn't for you. You understand this.
Neither is raiding - for exactly the same reasons.
I like to explore the game world, and you would have me trapped in a lobby, waiting wasting my time to access content! Preposterous! No, I want to roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill. And to be clear, even if I don't come to make friends it doesn't mean I don't make friends, or socialize. It's just that's not what draw me into these games. Cooperation if part of the fun, I just prefer when it comes out of spontaneous need. You see a bright opening to the surface and join a few clawed friends to risk the peril of the sun.
Honestly, I agree with Khronus here, AoC (and perhaps even MMO's in general) are maybe not the best genre for you.
While that spontaneous nature is something that does happen, MMO's are geared towards organization, not spontaneity. Look at Ashes, sieges, guild and node wars,
If you do indeed opt to play an MMO, you have to do so knowing that 50%+ of the game is not suited to you.
Again, if you're happy with that, more power to you - but if most of a game didn't cater to what I was looking for, I would play another game that was a better fit. To me, it seems like single player RPG's (Skyrim, Witcher etc) are more likely to provide the game play you want, as these are games you roam around, see what there is to do, what's on the other side of the hill, and socializing isn't a factor either way. These games seem like they would have close to 100% of the game being suited to you. Or even a game like Path of Exile, where exploration is always a factor.
I disagree with this generalization. This may be how some people play the game, but others prefer to spontaneously do things that they want to do at the time. Do you feel like dueling? Go through your friends list and see if anyone online wants to duel. No one wants to duel? Then maybe work on crafting or another profession. Maybe on your way to gather some missing materials for crafting, you find out that a friendly guild is in a guild war with an enemy guild and you spontaneously offer to help them out. Etc...
Sure, big events generally need to be planned and scheduled, but the majority of gameplay is not like this unless it's a lobby MMO like WoW.
I'm not super sure I understand what it is you disagree with.
I said that MMO's may not be for a player akin to what is being discussed, because such a large amount of the genres content is not geared towards them - I also said that if they are happy with this, then more power to them.
You agreed with me in regards to much of the content not being suited, and yet are suggesting that if they want to play an MMO anyway, more power to them.
It would seem to me that you actually agree with me, not disagree.