I would like to see the mariner classes (Gunnery, Piloting, Navigation, Boat repair, Ship components, Defensive skills, Utility based skills) be things that take long enough to master that they can function as long-term endgame goals. I would like to see them do the same for caravans. Caravaneer classes, with the same types of skills like driving, caravan repair, defensive skills etc.
I would like to see some PvE progression too, targeting combat strength against specific monsters. I am not hard set on a specific method or system, but something along the line of: "Kill 1000 spiders, get a small bonus against spiders. Kill 10,000 spiders get a slightly larger bonus against spiders and a title. Kill 100,000 spiders, get the max achievable bonus and a nicer title" You know, some sort of system where it would take years to max it all for all monsters, for small combat stat increases on the PvE side against those specific monster types.
and once you reach 100 you unlock some extremely cool mount
As someone who wants to do Animal Husbandry, I do not like that idea! Leave the mounts for the Animal Husbandry....ers.
And what if the lvl 100 "infinite" reward was tied to the spec you play? like if you're proficient in animal husbandry then you'd unluck a new special breed of mounts - same with other artisan professions
and once you reach 100 you unlock some extremely cool mount
As someone who wants to do Animal Husbandry, I do not like that idea! Leave the mounts for the Animal Husbandry....ers.
And what if the lvl 100 "infinite" reward was tied to the spec you play? like if you're proficient in animal husbandry then you'd unluck a new special breed of mounts - same with other artisan professions
"Infinite" endgame is a bit of a round-about notion. There are things that make progression beyond the max level and gear infinite, sure. But i don't think it will sorely be "Infinite" in all directions. The nodes for sure are a valuable asset of function but how could it be, "Infinite"? Sure it will allow for ever evolving story-telling but the node itself will have a min-max style esque system. For some examples of infinite systems i can think of a few. The level cap is not a hard cap, but you won't gain more levels like normal, instead the more you play you will essentially continue to level that may offer a variety of options beyond skill attribute points or talents for example and may open up other possibilities like legendary gear, quests and opportunities, kinda like a renown system. Lets say the cap is level 60, so you hit 60 but in the background you continue to gain exp at a ever slower rate opening up new levels to 61, 62 and so on. These extra levels could also unlock unique quests and items that would not fundamentally change the view of fighting a guy who is essentially level 80. As well tinkering or modifying gear that you get to make some really strange un-orthodox builds might be fun. Back to gear again, if we get legendary weapons which are supposedly a max per server, these items could have magical abilities with hefty cooldowns that a guild leader might use to essentially set the playing-field back to favor. I was thinking kinda like Warhammer 2 special abilities. Again, It doesnt have to be as simple but perhaps you have to lay the foundation to even use the abilities creating a necessary use of teamwork.
That's a game that did everything right. Even the repetitive stuff was fun to play because it allowed you to create new and better ways for yourself to play the game. Essentially it gave you new gameplay without forcing you to play a certain way.
Combat was fun and engaging.
Thinking about it now I just realized no MMO ever dared to do things like this co-op game did except for Blizzard's move with enabling players to select the difficulty of the dungeon.
Why should things feel almost the same between levels 1 to max? Why is every MMO designed to just add more spells to your spellbook and force you to play a certain way by giving you a brain dead rotation and just add spells to the rotation along the way.
Remnants from the Ashes has simple combat and gave you new items and addons and each item or itemset could change the gameplay drastically if the player was smart about their combination.
On top of this they made fighting enemies harder and riskier and more dangerous with each level.
Why not design MMOs in this way?
Start level 1 and everything is easy but as you level up it gets noticeably difficult and the game doesn't tell you how to play but just gives you tools at your disposal and counts on your cleverness to create builds that will help you get to the next level of difficulty.
MMOs seem to just keep pretty much the same level of difficulty throughout the whole game. And they give you a certain way to play as well. These two things are methods of handholding which just suck the fun out of games imo. What do you think?https://youtu.be/g4u4GrCpOm4
Interesting thought to take some inspiration from remnant, but I reckon it would be better to have it as a new topic, because that entire post has nothing to do about this topic - which is post-cap progression
I haven't played BDO, but from what i gather, there is not set power limit. The more you play, the better your gear. This one is really bad, only benefits those that invest a lot of time in the game.
I have played BDO for a while, it's P2W and it's not fun after a while, but I disagree with you when you say infinite progression is always bad: it definitely can be bad, but not always. In my opinion, it's not bad if the time investment x gear score is an exponential function, something like this:
Let's say for example that your mount stats are somehow tied to infinite progression, again it's just an example, I'm not supporting this idea. After a certain point, investing more time would simply not be (time) effective. If the difference between someone who invested 200 hours and someone who invested 2000 hours into improving their mount was a 10% movement speed, I'd say whoever invested 2000 hours deserves that 10% bonus, but I would also say that they wasted 1800 hours that could've been used more effectively elsewhere.
I believe infinite progression can be a viable option for some specific parts of character progression or some systems, but not for everything. It also shouldn't be tied to systems that make it impossible for new players to catch up and it shouldn't be the main or the only path for character progression after max level.
Now, i have been thinking about this for awhile and this is what i got so far.
After you reach max level there should be a some type of mechanic that starts affecting your character. But rather than be a hidden mechanic, have it be a quests chain that involves everything in the game. Difficult quests that needs a lot of work. Maybe one them says "take part in a siege" or other high level activities. Not exactly sure here, as I don't want it to be just "do what you did for the last 50 levels again". Something that just came to mind would be a quests that can be started only in a specific node after it gets to level 5, and each player gets a random one out of 10. So they then each group whats to level their node.
No matter the exact quests, the reward would be access to a 1 player instance. This instance would be hard and everyone must do them alone. Based on the players performance in this solo dungeon, they get to "wish" for (aka craft) a specific item they want. No RNG system, just raw skill. How good are you at the game.
A end game system like this would be satisfying and challenging at the same time because:
-there is no RNG involved. You get items based on how good you are and you get the items you want (I really, really don't need a great axe if i am a mage, trust me game, i really don't need it)
-if you get a crap item, it only because of you.
-is it solo players friendly
-even if you get a crap item, you can do the quest line again and try again.
-it lets the devs decided the power level of the rewards.
However, i don't think that the this should be the only way. You can get best-in-slot items like this, but you need to do a perfect run. Which would be rare. There could and should be other ways, like rare drops from dungeon/world-bosses or top level crafting, however the drops are random and the crafting is tied to the dungeon drops. This would be a way for everyone to get a guarantee upgrade for the gear they use.
You have some good ideas, but I don't think solo content is compatible with Ashes, especially not after max level. I think you must be able to get good gear even if you're solo, but you probably won't be getting any BiS items playing like that. I also see some bottlenecks like taking part in a siege, getting random quests, etc which can be very frustrating, even more than RNG. I agree, however, that primarily repeating what you did for the last 50 levels after max is bad, but I don't think it's totally avoidable.
What do you guys think? And what other system have you seen that worked well?
I believe the key word here is variety, even before reaching max level. We don't know for sure in how many ways you'll be able to progress your character after you reach max level, but acquiring better gear is definitely one of them so let's focus on that.
There is no endgame in Ashes so I'll just call the "time spent after reaching max level" as endgame, even though we've been accustomed to rushing to endgame in other MMORPGs which is a mistake in my opinion.
Being rewarded in the endgame for things you started doing during your leveling in your social organizations is a good example. You could choose to start caring about social organizations only at level 50, but if you started earlier, it should be rewarded somehow. In other words, I would hope that someone who just reached max level and invested time in a social org has a better cape, a better weapon, etc than someone who did nothing other than MSQ and mobs grinding and also just reached level 50.
I don't like the idea of removing RNG from monster drops. It can be frustrating to have the most DKPs to ensure that you'll grab that quasi-BiS piece of gear from a raid you do every week but never drop it for 2 months, but it's more rewarding when you finally get it. It also incentivizes people to pay for their monthly subscription, so there's that.
You also need to keep in mind that maybe not always the BiS, but most of the best gear will be crafted by other players, so you'll need gold or cooperation to get some items.
I like the idea of having long, difficult quests that reward you with good gear with no RNG involved. However, if there's no risk involved, I don't think that piece of gear should be BiS, but definitely better than most.
I also enjoy being rewarded points for taking part in PvP instanced activities, such as Arena or Battlegrounds, and spending those points in shops that sell gear or maybe rare mats to make gear.
Something that could be done to incentivize people to do all the different activities would be to tie specific gear slots to specific activities. For instance quests after max level will only reward with the best jewelry, instanced PvP shop will only have the best weapons or rare mats for weapons, etc. Not really mandatory, just an idea, since crafting will always be viable and/or better than these activities that have little risk vs. reward.
We have so far listed: social orgs, PVE/raids, crafting, quests and instanced PvP as ways to acquire better gear after max level. There are probably many more ideas out there, but again, I believe the key word is variety.
Last but not least, we only talked about gear progression, but I absolutely hope that there will be many other ways for you to progress your character besides getting BiS gear: mastering your profession, catching all the Pokémon mounts (and pets?), grinding for transmogs, completing achievements, completing diaries (OSRS has an interesting diaries, combat achievements and collection log design), working on your freehold, getting titles, participating in mini-games, PvE/PvP ranks and/or competitive systems, etc the list goes on.
I'm not an RPer or a PvE player, but it's things like these that help make a MMORPG better than average. It's a risk vs. reward game where you're never safe and you can lose everything if your Node is destroyed, but you can also have fun even if you're not a PvP min-max Chad and can only play 10 hours a week.
I have become disillusioned by the idea of "End Game" in most MMO's lately. I, like many others here, recently played through New World. And can for sure say that gear score (water mark) leveling is not fun. Gear leveling should be a byproduct of playing a game and having fun. Not the goal of the game play. This is where MMO's should vastly differ from FPS console gaming.
I would like to see a myriad of paths that players can "grind" for their own enjoyment at end game. For example building a mount breeding business, becoming a Pirate fleet captain, selling rare herbs and potions, creating a mercenary trading guild that ships people's products safely for a fee of course. Having NPC’s that players can hire to work small businesses or perform tasks in towns. Or the ability to create your own quests in game for people to play, like Neverwinter has.
There should be many if not infinite avenues available for players to enjoy progression at end game level. Rather than just the goal of having more ++ on your gear score. I just hope there are enough systems in place to allow players to role play their fantasies. Without the need to mindlessly grind for gear progression.
In this regard I kind of prefer GW2 idea that gear levels are pretty much normalized and the highest level stuff just adds convenience rather than bonuses.
I have become disillusioned by the idea of "End Game" in most MMO's lately. I, like many others here, recently played through New World. And can for sure say that gear score (water mark) leveling is not fun. Gear leveling should be a byproduct of playing a game and having fun. Not the goal of the game play. This is where MMO's should vastly differ from FPS console gaming.
I would like to see a myriad of paths that players can "grind" for their own enjoyment at end game. For example building a mount breeding business, becoming a Pirate fleet captain, selling rare herbs and potions, creating a mercenary trading guild that ships people's products safely for a fee of course. Having NPC’s that players can hire to work small businesses or perform tasks in towns. Or the ability to create your own quests in game for people to play, like Neverwinter has.
There should be many if not infinite avenues available for players to enjoy progression at end game level. Rather than just the goal of having more ++ on your gear score. I just hope there are enough systems in place to allow players to role play their fantasies. Without the need to mindlessly grind for gear progression.
In this regard I kind of prefer GW2 idea that gear levels are pretty much normalized and the highest level stuff just adds convenience rather than bonuses.
Gear leveling should be a byproduct of playing a game and having fun. Not the goal of the game play. This is where MMO's should vastly differ from FPS console gaming.
I totally agree.
To me, this is where raiding in MMO's got things right. People went on raids because they enjoyed them, and the results of raiding were better gear that was needed to take on the next tier of raiding.
As a system, this worked perfectly - and still works.
The issues it came up against were when people that didn't enjoy raiding went on raids because they wanted the gear. All of a sudden, it went from playing and enjoying the game and getting good gear, to people playing a part of the game they didn't actually enjoy, just to get the gear from it.
This isn't "just" a fault of players. The problem is that developers of many games in the past only really gave players one avenue to good gear. If players only have one avenue to continue playing the game, they will either leave, or play that one avenue regardless of if they like it.
To me, any MMO should have PvP content for those that like PvP, raid content for those that like raiding, grouo content for those that like grouping, crafting content for those that like crafting, and so on.
Any time there is a need for a player to participate in a content type, rather than participating in content they enjoy, there is the potential for issues.
So yes, gear should be a result of playing the game and having fun - but achieving this wouldl require a drastic shift in MMO design.
To be clear, this post is only about character strength or gear progression. Not life skills, social, etc etc.
Personally, I find the idea of Animal Husbandry fascinating and based on what i read of the system, i could spends 100s of hours doing that. Same with a lot of other life skills. Imagine if siege engines are consumables. You can use them 2 or 3 times then they are done. This will mean that siege engine builders are never out of work, lumberjacks are never out of work etc.
There will definitely be stuff to do at endgame. If the Guild V Guild content is good, that will keep players engaged for a long time.
What I am talking is strict gear progression. Ways to get Best in Slot items. And not just BiS, but BiS for your build.
Also @BaSkA13, while yes, my idea with activities that you need to do to open this solo dungeon is flawed (especially on any low pop or peaceful servers, where sieges would be rare, meaning that the most active server would have better gear than any other server (which would be horrible if they introduce any World v World events)), I still stand by it.
Maybe you get to choose: "do one of the following deeds to open a dungeon: win a siege or complete a quest arc or defeat a certain amount of corrupted enemies"
Something like this would give every player the opportunity to play the content they like, while also knowing that they can do something else. Maybe there is no siege this week, so you do a quest arc. Maybe the corruption in your area is getting out of hand, so you take that option, killing 2 birds with one stone. This would keep max level players involved into the day to day activities, have them interact with lower levels and also know that they are progressing their character.
And (maybe patting myself on the back a bit much here) I really think the solo dungeon that rewards you with a specific item you want is a satisfying way to approach endgame.
The first time you do it, you will suck at it. Enemies will be to powerful or you wont have the knowledge of the best way to beat it. So you get a sucky item. Still a bit better than what you have bc you were able to make it, but crap compared to what you could have gotten.
Second time you do it, you still sucks, just a bit less. Because of the new item and the fact that you know whats waiting inside this dungeon, you do 5% better. And get a 5% better item.
3rd time, even better. And so on.
Sure, you can have a god-run and get the best BiS item there is and you'll know that if you had to do it again immediately after, if would not go as well.
And if those items have a specific skin on them, other players will be able to tell that you are good at the game. Its going to be bragging rights as well. Seeing someone rocking the full BiS set will mean that person is fantastic at the game and they proved it time and time again.
This system, together with the guild politics, the life skills and everything else should give this game a serious and satisfying end game. Those that put time in are rewarded, but those that don't aren't punished, but they have something to strive for: their personal BiS gear set.
Max level progression should solely be for vanity items, prestige titles, and unique mounts.
A full loot PvP area would be needed to keep it fresh. Extremely rare drops in the area; ultra rare RNG drops.
Yea, this is a big no-no.
Considering that Ashes wants to be a long term MMO (aka YEARS), there needs to be something to do after max level to increase your in-game power.
I get the why people make alts, to experience other classes and stuff, but personally, I have never done it. Chose my first character carefully and stuck with him. And idk how many actually use alts, but lets say its 50%. That leaves another 50% that don't and there needs to be content for those players as well.
Also, full loot PvP is something you think you want in an MMO, but not really. It works in games like Rust or DayZ, but for an MMO it just dosen't. Also, let me quote Star Wars here : "There's always a bigger fish". You might think you are "the best", but i guarantee there is someone better.
I do think there should be a zone or game mode that has a higher risk-reward system, maybe you drop some gold or something, but that is another forum discussion by itself.
And about the ultra rare RNG drops.... no. Just no. RNG never feels good. And I am talking as someone who has absolutely disgusting luck with drops. I get the item i want on the first or second try most of the time, idk, Lady Luck smiles upon me, but having progression tied to RNG just makes the game worse. Knowing that you did everything right and not getting the reward sucks! And then you do it again, and no reward. And then you do it 50 more times and then you get it. And after you get, you will never never do that content again because you will hate it with the burning fury of 1000 suns. There is no skill, no challenge, just pray to RNJesus. Bad system, don't put it in the game.
Have RNG in other places, that aren't as important as character progression. Have dice games, have rare chances for certain rare materials to drop etc, but not character progression.
You cant just put "for sure gear" in the endgame. That is very theme-park. The no lifers will grind it all out unless its an infinite power progression, and at that point most people will quit when they realize the game truly isn't for casuals.
When a person is killing the end game bosses they should feel like there is a chance they just won't get what they want. So I have a solution to this.
Procedurally generate "clues" that will drop off the end game bosses. Once you have collected a certain amount of clues, you will be able to track down a endgame piece of gear. This piece of gear may not always be the piece you want, however you could sell it for a ton of gold. Other players in the world will probably have located the pieces you want, and since you just made gold selling your rare piece(considering you don't find the exact piece you wanted to begin with) you can buy the pieces you want off other players.
Randomize the clues that drop, for example a stone tablet that has information inscribed upon it. You could even sell the clues to people who just look for maybe one of the clues, instead of the set of clues that would be needed. You kill the frost dragon for example, and he drops a "ancient tablet of the forsaken frost giants", and that tablet would be a clue toward gaining a giant frost hammer for fighters to use.
Also, forming an argument involves providing a detailed solution, not simply disagreeing with someone else.
Your "clue system" is in essence just material drop and that is already planned as the primary gear loop. Some materials can be harvestable (like raw mats) and some can be just looted (for example recipes, unique ingredients etc)
However I understand your preference for treasure hunting with a map/clue obtained from bosses - even though from gameplay perspective it is literally the same reward as materials/recipes, but with a different roleplay angle
Final Fantasy 14 has a token-based system for gear, so you don't get bad gear. You do the content, get a token and once you have enough tokens you purchase the item for the slot you want. Every class has the same gear. The difference is how you do your secondary stats. So, mage 1 mage go for a fast build, mage 2 may go for a bigger damage build. The two builds aren't mathematically big enough to matter. It simply comes down to play style preference.
Max level progression should solely be for vanity items, prestige titles, and unique mounts.
A full loot PvP area would be needed to keep it fresh. Extremely rare drops in the area; ultra rare RNG drops.
Yea, this is a big no-no.
Considering that Ashes wants to be a long term MMO (aka YEARS), there needs to be something to do after max level to increase your in-game power.
I get the why people make alts, to experience other classes and stuff, but personally, I have never done it. Chose my first character carefully and stuck with him. And idk how many actually use alts, but lets say its 50%. That leaves another 50% that don't and there needs to be content for those players as well.
Also, full loot PvP is something you think you want in an MMO, but not really. It works in games like Rust or DayZ, but for an MMO it just dosen't. Also, let me quote Star Wars here : "There's always a bigger fish". You might think you are "the best", but i guarantee there is someone better.
I do think there should be a zone or game mode that has a higher risk-reward system, maybe you drop some gold or something, but that is another forum discussion by itself.
And about the ultra rare RNG drops.... no. Just no. RNG never feels good. And I am talking as someone who has absolutely disgusting luck with drops. I get the item i want on the first or second try most of the time, idk, Lady Luck smiles upon me, but having progression tied to RNG just makes the game worse. Knowing that you did everything right and not getting the reward sucks! And then you do it again, and no reward. And then you do it 50 more times and then you get it. And after you get, you will never never do that content again because you will hate it with the burning fury of 1000 suns. There is no skill, no challenge, just pray to RNJesus. Bad system, don't put it in the game.
Have RNG in other places, that aren't as important as character progression. Have dice games, have rare chances for certain rare materials to drop etc, but not character progression.
The worst part about pure RNG drops that meaningfully advance is that it's a literally provably bad system because it isn't true probability in the way people normally think about it.
Give an item a 10% droprate and Player A who gets it on the first try doesn't need to do it again unless they're in a guild where multiple people need it. They're not subject to the '90% of the time when it doesn't drop', they just advance.
Player B who is unlucky and does it 40 times with no drop is not 'more likely to get it' on any given attempt because of the previous 40-50 failures. When we talk about 'it averages out', that's not really what is happening. That player has somehow already failed 50 times, and then that player still only has the same 10% chance as they always had.
Except that in a PvP game, now people who already got the drop are stronger and can bring their friends to contest it.
Any RNG progression where the reward is meaningful and yet no player really needs to do the content once they have obtained the result they want, is problematic without the focus shifting to horizontal progressions or 'consolation prizes' for the drop.
Putting that sort of thing post max-level just multiplies how bad it is.
I would bear in mind that Steven has repeated the mantra, "there is no endgame." I don't think you will see any sort of highly repetitive gear score grinding like New World or systematic raiding tiers like WoW or FF14. I think there will be a large variety of content instead and it will be a big world where players set their own goals.
From what I can tell AOC's design is about interacting with other players and following the cycle of Build/Protect/Loss/Destroy with lots of players trying to reach individual goals and being allowed to play how they want instead of follow a more scripted endgame that other games force on the most competitive players.
I would bear in mind that Steven has repeated the mantra, "there is no endgame."
That "mantra" gives a misleading impression, because what he actually means (that can be well understood from the design of game systems) is that you are part of the endgame from level 1 - so in essence you don't have traditional endgame
The "endgame" is to improve your node you live in to the maximum and thus you create access to the best dungeons/raids the game has to offer where you are able to gather materials for the best gear
The closest thing to this system i can think of was the opening of the gates of ahn'qiraj in original wow. Where a realm didn't get access to the raids until you turned in predetermined amounts of materials. Same core concept is the basis of the node system - materials/services are required for upgrading nodes that opens new higher level opportunities, dungeons and possibly raids
I'd like to throw this out there too; Just because something has been said in the past and is on the wiki does NOT mean that information will not change. We're still in Alpha, so just about everything is subject to potential change pending testing, design reiteration and such. So debating something that has already been stated is fine!
I'd like to throw this out there too; Just because something has been said in the past and is on the wiki does NOT mean that information will not change. We're still in Alpha, so just about everything is subject to potential change pending testing, design reiteration and such. So debating something that has already been stated is fine!
You've opened up multiple cans of worms with this one. Worms everywhere.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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ILLPeonUMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Realm Rank from DAoC was a awesome mechanic, it kept players playing for years, and still playing 20 years later. Reaching max level was just the beginning, and then the real work started as you PvP'd to gain extra stats and some useful abilities, separating your class on how you chose to build it. They could even add such a mechanic for PVE and Crafters where they could gain some form a renown to become more proficient then the rest.
Gameplay should mean something in the end, if you put it the hours of years of time, there should be a payoff and something to strive for. Steven was big in Archeage and Ancestral's were ok... but they left me wanting. DAoC was by far the best post level game I have ever played.
TwitchTV Streamer: The Hidden Dagger Inn Saturday's 5:00 PM Cst
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Some form of realm rank/rep will probably already be a factor in Ashes straight out of the character creator.
It's not going to be something that suddenly gains meaning (or more meaining) after reaching max Adventurer level.
Post max lv systems are just boring treadmills for mmos with shallow content that rely on instanced, sterilized coop or versus opt ins (raids and BGs).
My opinion is not to bother Devs with such lack-luster gameplay loops.
For mmos the journey is what matters. Keep the levelling proccess slow, let people enjoy the map instead of speedrunning it, (which also happens to be large), and when the time comes:
Add new map areas
Add new skill cap
Add new high lv skills
Add new gear
Add new bosses
Add a couple more castles.
Endgame gear should be obtainable from most endgame activities. Both through non-rng (farming materials and crafting) *and* through rng (random drops from Bosses or rare chests etc). Having full endgame gear should be fully doable for anyone given a bit time, but the flashiest and "most convenient" gear should take a *long* time to grind together, and require many different kinds of activities.
Endgame gear should be obtainable from most endgame activities. Both through non-rng (farming materials and crafting) *and* through rng (random drops from Bosses or rare chests etc). Having full endgame gear should be fully doable for anyone given a bit time, but the flashiest and "most convenient" gear should take a *long* time to grind together, and require many different kinds of activities.
GW2 definitely nailed this imo.
Yup! I would much rather the game focuses on character progression, not on gear progression.
Realm Rank from DAoC was a awesome mechanic, it kept players playing for years, and still playing 20 years later. Reaching max level was just the beginning, and then the real work started as you PvP'd to gain extra stats and some useful abilities, separating your class on how you chose to build it. They could even add such a mechanic for PVE and Crafters where they could gain some form a renown to become more proficient then the rest.
Gameplay should mean something in the end, if you put it the hours of years of time, there should be a payoff and something to strive for. Steven was big in Archeage and Ancestral's were ok... but they left me wanting. DAoC was by far the best post level game I have ever played.
I agree, DAoC realm ranks was/is a great concept they should emulate in some way. The Master Levels were ok in concept, but not so good in execution I think. Still, I think Ashes should copy the ideas from DAoC and refine them and make them better.
Post max lv systems are just boring treadmills for mmos with shallow content that rely on instanced, sterilized coop or versus opt ins (raids and BGs).
My opinion is not to bother Devs with such lack-luster gameplay loops.
For mmos the journey is what matters. Keep the levelling proccess slow, let people enjoy the map instead of speedrunning it, (which also happens to be large), and when the time comes:
Add new map areas
Add new skill cap
Add new high lv skills
Add new gear
Add new bosses
Add a couple more castles.
With this as the paradigm, people will hit the level cap and move to another game.
Some will come back with new content, some will not.
MMORPG's are primarily about progression. The moment a player ceases to have an avenue of progression in front of them is the moment the games developers failed the player base.
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I would like to see some PvE progression too, targeting combat strength against specific monsters. I am not hard set on a specific method or system, but something along the line of: "Kill 1000 spiders, get a small bonus against spiders. Kill 10,000 spiders get a slightly larger bonus against spiders and a title. Kill 100,000 spiders, get the max achievable bonus and a nicer title" You know, some sort of system where it would take years to max it all for all monsters, for small combat stat increases on the PvE side against those specific monster types.
And what if the lvl 100 "infinite" reward was tied to the spec you play? like if you're proficient in animal husbandry then you'd unluck a new special breed of mounts - same with other artisan professions
― Plato
Ok, you've persuaded me
That's a game that did everything right. Even the repetitive stuff was fun to play because it allowed you to create new and better ways for yourself to play the game. Essentially it gave you new gameplay without forcing you to play a certain way.
Combat was fun and engaging.
Thinking about it now I just realized no MMO ever dared to do things like this co-op game did except for Blizzard's move with enabling players to select the difficulty of the dungeon.
Why should things feel almost the same between levels 1 to max? Why is every MMO designed to just add more spells to your spellbook and force you to play a certain way by giving you a brain dead rotation and just add spells to the rotation along the way.
Remnants from the Ashes has simple combat and gave you new items and addons and each item or itemset could change the gameplay drastically if the player was smart about their combination.
On top of this they made fighting enemies harder and riskier and more dangerous with each level.
Why not design MMOs in this way?
Start level 1 and everything is easy but as you level up it gets noticeably difficult and the game doesn't tell you how to play but just gives you tools at your disposal and counts on your cleverness to create builds that will help you get to the next level of difficulty.
MMOs seem to just keep pretty much the same level of difficulty throughout the whole game. And they give you a certain way to play as well. These two things are methods of handholding which just suck the fun out of games imo. What do you think?
― Plato
I have played BDO for a while, it's P2W and it's not fun after a while, but I disagree with you when you say infinite progression is always bad: it definitely can be bad, but not always. In my opinion, it's not bad if the time investment x gear score is an exponential function, something like this:
Let's say for example that your mount stats are somehow tied to infinite progression, again it's just an example, I'm not supporting this idea. After a certain point, investing more time would simply not be (time) effective. If the difference between someone who invested 200 hours and someone who invested 2000 hours into improving their mount was a 10% movement speed, I'd say whoever invested 2000 hours deserves that 10% bonus, but I would also say that they wasted 1800 hours that could've been used more effectively elsewhere.
I believe infinite progression can be a viable option for some specific parts of character progression or some systems, but not for everything. It also shouldn't be tied to systems that make it impossible for new players to catch up and it shouldn't be the main or the only path for character progression after max level.
You have some good ideas, but I don't think solo content is compatible with Ashes, especially not after max level. I think you must be able to get good gear even if you're solo, but you probably won't be getting any BiS items playing like that. I also see some bottlenecks like taking part in a siege, getting random quests, etc which can be very frustrating, even more than RNG. I agree, however, that primarily repeating what you did for the last 50 levels after max is bad, but I don't think it's totally avoidable.
I believe the key word here is variety, even before reaching max level. We don't know for sure in how many ways you'll be able to progress your character after you reach max level, but acquiring better gear is definitely one of them so let's focus on that.
There is no endgame in Ashes so I'll just call the "time spent after reaching max level" as endgame, even though we've been accustomed to rushing to endgame in other MMORPGs which is a mistake in my opinion.
Being rewarded in the endgame for things you started doing during your leveling in your social organizations is a good example. You could choose to start caring about social organizations only at level 50, but if you started earlier, it should be rewarded somehow. In other words, I would hope that someone who just reached max level and invested time in a social org has a better cape, a better weapon, etc than someone who did nothing other than MSQ and mobs grinding and also just reached level 50.
I don't like the idea of removing RNG from monster drops. It can be frustrating to have the most DKPs to ensure that you'll grab that quasi-BiS piece of gear from a raid you do every week but never drop it for 2 months, but it's more rewarding when you finally get it. It also incentivizes people to pay for their monthly subscription, so there's that.
You also need to keep in mind that maybe not always the BiS, but most of the best gear will be crafted by other players, so you'll need gold or cooperation to get some items.
I like the idea of having long, difficult quests that reward you with good gear with no RNG involved. However, if there's no risk involved, I don't think that piece of gear should be BiS, but definitely better than most.
I also enjoy being rewarded points for taking part in PvP instanced activities, such as Arena or Battlegrounds, and spending those points in shops that sell gear or maybe rare mats to make gear.
Something that could be done to incentivize people to do all the different activities would be to tie specific gear slots to specific activities. For instance quests after max level will only reward with the best jewelry, instanced PvP shop will only have the best weapons or rare mats for weapons, etc. Not really mandatory, just an idea, since crafting will always be viable and/or better than these activities that have little risk vs. reward.
We have so far listed: social orgs, PVE/raids, crafting, quests and instanced PvP as ways to acquire better gear after max level. There are probably many more ideas out there, but again, I believe the key word is variety.
Last but not least, we only talked about gear progression, but I absolutely hope that there will be many other ways for you to progress your character besides getting BiS gear: mastering your profession, catching all the Pokémon mounts (and pets?), grinding for transmogs, completing achievements, completing diaries (OSRS has an interesting diaries, combat achievements and collection log design), working on your freehold, getting titles, participating in mini-games, PvE/PvP ranks and/or competitive systems, etc the list goes on.
I'm not an RPer or a PvE player, but it's things like these that help make a MMORPG better than average. It's a risk vs. reward game where you're never safe and you can lose everything if your Node is destroyed, but you can also have fun even if you're not a PvP min-max Chad and can only play 10 hours a week.
I would like to see a myriad of paths that players can "grind" for their own enjoyment at end game. For example building a mount breeding business, becoming a Pirate fleet captain, selling rare herbs and potions, creating a mercenary trading guild that ships people's products safely for a fee of course. Having NPC’s that players can hire to work small businesses or perform tasks in towns. Or the ability to create your own quests in game for people to play, like Neverwinter has.
There should be many if not infinite avenues available for players to enjoy progression at end game level. Rather than just the goal of having more ++ on your gear score. I just hope there are enough systems in place to allow players to role play their fantasies. Without the need to mindlessly grind for gear progression.
In this regard I kind of prefer GW2 idea that gear levels are pretty much normalized and the highest level stuff just adds convenience rather than bonuses.
This guy gets it
To me, this is where raiding in MMO's got things right. People went on raids because they enjoyed them, and the results of raiding were better gear that was needed to take on the next tier of raiding.
As a system, this worked perfectly - and still works.
The issues it came up against were when people that didn't enjoy raiding went on raids because they wanted the gear. All of a sudden, it went from playing and enjoying the game and getting good gear, to people playing a part of the game they didn't actually enjoy, just to get the gear from it.
This isn't "just" a fault of players. The problem is that developers of many games in the past only really gave players one avenue to good gear. If players only have one avenue to continue playing the game, they will either leave, or play that one avenue regardless of if they like it.
To me, any MMO should have PvP content for those that like PvP, raid content for those that like raiding, grouo content for those that like grouping, crafting content for those that like crafting, and so on.
Any time there is a need for a player to participate in a content type, rather than participating in content they enjoy, there is the potential for issues.
So yes, gear should be a result of playing the game and having fun - but achieving this wouldl require a drastic shift in MMO design.
To be clear, this post is only about character strength or gear progression. Not life skills, social, etc etc.
Personally, I find the idea of Animal Husbandry fascinating and based on what i read of the system, i could spends 100s of hours doing that. Same with a lot of other life skills. Imagine if siege engines are consumables. You can use them 2 or 3 times then they are done. This will mean that siege engine builders are never out of work, lumberjacks are never out of work etc.
There will definitely be stuff to do at endgame. If the Guild V Guild content is good, that will keep players engaged for a long time.
What I am talking is strict gear progression. Ways to get Best in Slot items. And not just BiS, but BiS for your build.
Also @BaSkA13, while yes, my idea with activities that you need to do to open this solo dungeon is flawed (especially on any low pop or peaceful servers, where sieges would be rare, meaning that the most active server would have better gear than any other server (which would be horrible if they introduce any World v World events)), I still stand by it.
Maybe you get to choose: "do one of the following deeds to open a dungeon: win a siege or complete a quest arc or defeat a certain amount of corrupted enemies"
Something like this would give every player the opportunity to play the content they like, while also knowing that they can do something else. Maybe there is no siege this week, so you do a quest arc. Maybe the corruption in your area is getting out of hand, so you take that option, killing 2 birds with one stone. This would keep max level players involved into the day to day activities, have them interact with lower levels and also know that they are progressing their character.
And (maybe patting myself on the back a bit much here) I really think the solo dungeon that rewards you with a specific item you want is a satisfying way to approach endgame.
The first time you do it, you will suck at it. Enemies will be to powerful or you wont have the knowledge of the best way to beat it. So you get a sucky item. Still a bit better than what you have bc you were able to make it, but crap compared to what you could have gotten.
Second time you do it, you still sucks, just a bit less. Because of the new item and the fact that you know whats waiting inside this dungeon, you do 5% better. And get a 5% better item.
3rd time, even better. And so on.
Sure, you can have a god-run and get the best BiS item there is and you'll know that if you had to do it again immediately after, if would not go as well.
And if those items have a specific skin on them, other players will be able to tell that you are good at the game. Its going to be bragging rights as well. Seeing someone rocking the full BiS set will mean that person is fantastic at the game and they proved it time and time again.
This system, together with the guild politics, the life skills and everything else should give this game a serious and satisfying end game. Those that put time in are rewarded, but those that don't aren't punished, but they have something to strive for: their personal BiS gear set.
A full loot PvP area would be needed to keep it fresh. Extremely rare drops in the area; ultra rare RNG drops.
So, you are advocating for a game where most people will level up and then unsubscribe?
Yea, this is a big no-no.
Considering that Ashes wants to be a long term MMO (aka YEARS), there needs to be something to do after max level to increase your in-game power.
I get the why people make alts, to experience other classes and stuff, but personally, I have never done it. Chose my first character carefully and stuck with him. And idk how many actually use alts, but lets say its 50%. That leaves another 50% that don't and there needs to be content for those players as well.
Also, full loot PvP is something you think you want in an MMO, but not really. It works in games like Rust or DayZ, but for an MMO it just dosen't. Also, let me quote Star Wars here : "There's always a bigger fish". You might think you are "the best", but i guarantee there is someone better.
I do think there should be a zone or game mode that has a higher risk-reward system, maybe you drop some gold or something, but that is another forum discussion by itself.
And about the ultra rare RNG drops.... no. Just no. RNG never feels good. And I am talking as someone who has absolutely disgusting luck with drops. I get the item i want on the first or second try most of the time, idk, Lady Luck smiles upon me, but having progression tied to RNG just makes the game worse. Knowing that you did everything right and not getting the reward sucks! And then you do it again, and no reward. And then you do it 50 more times and then you get it. And after you get, you will never never do that content again because you will hate it with the burning fury of 1000 suns. There is no skill, no challenge, just pray to RNJesus. Bad system, don't put it in the game.
Have RNG in other places, that aren't as important as character progression. Have dice games, have rare chances for certain rare materials to drop etc, but not character progression.
When a person is killing the end game bosses they should feel like there is a chance they just won't get what they want. So I have a solution to this.
Procedurally generate "clues" that will drop off the end game bosses. Once you have collected a certain amount of clues, you will be able to track down a endgame piece of gear. This piece of gear may not always be the piece you want, however you could sell it for a ton of gold. Other players in the world will probably have located the pieces you want, and since you just made gold selling your rare piece(considering you don't find the exact piece you wanted to begin with) you can buy the pieces you want off other players.
Randomize the clues that drop, for example a stone tablet that has information inscribed upon it. You could even sell the clues to people who just look for maybe one of the clues, instead of the set of clues that would be needed. You kill the frost dragon for example, and he drops a "ancient tablet of the forsaken frost giants", and that tablet would be a clue toward gaining a giant frost hammer for fighters to use.
Also, forming an argument involves providing a detailed solution, not simply disagreeing with someone else.
However I understand your preference for treasure hunting with a map/clue obtained from bosses - even though from gameplay perspective it is literally the same reward as materials/recipes, but with a different roleplay angle
― Plato
The worst part about pure RNG drops that meaningfully advance is that it's a literally provably bad system because it isn't true probability in the way people normally think about it.
Give an item a 10% droprate and Player A who gets it on the first try doesn't need to do it again unless they're in a guild where multiple people need it. They're not subject to the '90% of the time when it doesn't drop', they just advance.
Player B who is unlucky and does it 40 times with no drop is not 'more likely to get it' on any given attempt because of the previous 40-50 failures. When we talk about 'it averages out', that's not really what is happening. That player has somehow already failed 50 times, and then that player still only has the same 10% chance as they always had.
Except that in a PvP game, now people who already got the drop are stronger and can bring their friends to contest it.
Any RNG progression where the reward is meaningful and yet no player really needs to do the content once they have obtained the result they want, is problematic without the focus shifting to horizontal progressions or 'consolation prizes' for the drop.
Putting that sort of thing post max-level just multiplies how bad it is.
Very well said! Nice
This is also well said! Good points all around
I'd like to throw this out there too; Just because something has been said in the past and is on the wiki does NOT mean that information will not change. We're still in Alpha, so just about everything is subject to potential change pending testing, design reiteration and such. So debating something that has already been stated is fine!
That's why we sometimes to Dev Discussions on topics that have already been mentioned. For example, our current one of Holidays! I know Steven has said something on it in the past but that doesn't mean we don't want to hear peoples thoughts on the matter as well
You've opened up multiple cans of worms with this one. Worms everywhere.
Gameplay should mean something in the end, if you put it the hours of years of time, there should be a payoff and something to strive for. Steven was big in Archeage and Ancestral's were ok... but they left me wanting. DAoC was by far the best post level game I have ever played.
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
It's not going to be something that suddenly gains meaning (or more meaining) after reaching max Adventurer level.
My opinion is not to bother Devs with such lack-luster gameplay loops.
For mmos the journey is what matters. Keep the levelling proccess slow, let people enjoy the map instead of speedrunning it, (which also happens to be large), and when the time comes:
Add new map areas
Add new skill cap
Add new high lv skills
Add new gear
Add new bosses
Add a couple more castles.
Endgame gear should be obtainable from most endgame activities. Both through non-rng (farming materials and crafting) *and* through rng (random drops from Bosses or rare chests etc). Having full endgame gear should be fully doable for anyone given a bit time, but the flashiest and "most convenient" gear should take a *long* time to grind together, and require many different kinds of activities.
GW2 definitely nailed this imo.
Yup! I would much rather the game focuses on character progression, not on gear progression.
I agree, DAoC realm ranks was/is a great concept they should emulate in some way. The Master Levels were ok in concept, but not so good in execution I think. Still, I think Ashes should copy the ideas from DAoC and refine them and make them better.
With this as the paradigm, people will hit the level cap and move to another game.
Some will come back with new content, some will not.
MMORPG's are primarily about progression. The moment a player ceases to have an avenue of progression in front of them is the moment the games developers failed the player base.