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The Paradox of Adversity, by Josh Strife Hayes

BalanzBalanz Member, Alpha Two
in General Discussion
Posted today by Josh Strife Hayes:

http://youtu.be/Z4Gaz8oxzJ4

A good perspective on what Ashes of Creation seeks to restore, and the risk thereof.

Comments

  • CraikenCraiken Member
    I look forward to watching this.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited June 2022
    This is why it would seem like torture to even think about starting up games like gw2/wow/ff14 as I know how accessible they are.
    Reward in these games is simply a completion task and even though it can be a pretty decent shared experience with your friends, at the end of the day I play mmo's to build upon my character and what impact I have in that world, I don't want it to end, this is why I feel "end game" among the experienced is brought up so casually.

    I very much take solace in games which focus on PvP elements, as it's not only a focus on having a "game state" but it's an avenue for your own personal progression and what you're happy with.

    I'm not too fond of Josh because to me, he not only highlights the obvious, which btw, more people would have experience on if they weren't lul'd into playing games for the sake of playing them and "give me a good story!" which to me is the same as reading a book or watching a tv series but also because he unfairly critized older PvP mmo's because of the chance of losing too much progression, which obviously needs to be worked on.

    At the end of the day he's a growing streamer, this is a boiling pot topic which garner's views from people who love to go "I know right!" and is education/lore for younger players who are confused and intrigued by the wonders and history of the online gaming genre.
  • JhorenJhoren Member
    Balanz wrote: »
    Posted today by Josh Strife Hayes:

    http://youtu.be/Z4Gaz8oxzJ4

    A good perspective on what Ashes of Creation seeks to restore, and the risk thereof.

    I generally agree with this, even if he is a bit longwinded about it. As NishUK also mentions, it may be a bit obvious to older MMORPG players, but even so, they could benefit from hearing this point driven home again. And new players definitely need to keep this in mind when they make suggestions for Ashes.
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would just prefer more difficulty instead of being able to pull the entire zone at once
  • ClintHardwoodClintHardwood Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2022
    While I agree with Josh that difficulty played a major role in the enjoyability of older MMOs, I think that alone is not a comprehensive explanation. A greater factor than that is, in my opinion, player choice. Many MMOs nowadays have you complete checklists of tasks to play the game in any sensible matter. Do all fifteen dailies for crazy rewards, weeklies are even more important, do that raid as soon as it goes off cooldown. The end result is a narrow hallway of gameplay you must tread in order to be competitive.

    Old MMOs did not suffer from this issue. They gave you a world of things to enjoy, each as rewarding as you are good at them, and you did whichever interested you most. Wanted to get rich by merchanting? Great, go do that! Want to skill and craft? No problem. Farm mobs as soon as you log in without any dailies to complete before then? Do you, booboo!

    Unfortunately, most modern MMOs do not have this. They do not trust the player to gravitate to the content they enjoy, if it exists at all, instead opting to shove generic tasks down their throats with a metaphoric fire hose. I'm sure there are statistical advantages to this: more player retention if they know which simple tasks to do and get greatly rewarded for completing them, but in the process, the game starts to feel like a job, a shopping list of chores you must go through to play efficiently at the cost of freedom and personal fulfillment.

    That's just my two cents.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2022
    I mean... yes... we tend to remember things that are tedious, difficult and harmful more than we remember things that are ordinary, easy, and pleasant. Because our evolutionary brains are going to want to remember how to more easily avoid and overcome similar experiences in the future.
    You don't have to remember the details of the stuff that's easy to accomplish.

    Retaining those memories of hard times isn't really why we loved old MMORPGs.
    We loved old MMORPGs because they were new. We continue to love them, when we do, because we've invested so much time living in that world. And, nothing much has appeared yet to eradicate the scurge that is endgame.
    Better the devil you know.
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    edited June 2022
    Very interesting video and obviously relevant to the genre and to this game! I certainly have fond memories of my early days of playing MMORPGs.

    I also have some very fond memories of WoW from post-WoTLK when they added some of those core features that reduced the need for socialization.

    I think they were correct by saying that there is a goldilocks zone of perfection when it comes to game design for MMORPGs.

    Either way, I look forward to creating new memories in Verra with you fine folks 😉

    Side note: The narrator brings up an interesting point about how one can struggle in the moment, but look back at overcoming adversity fondly. I'd love to hear some examples from you all on moments such as these!
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  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    edited June 2022
    ClintHardwood wrote: »
    While I agree with Josh that difficulty played a major role in the enjoyability of older MMOs, I think that alone is not a comprehensive explanation. A greater factor than that is, in my opinion, player choice. Many MMOs nowadays have you complete checklists of tasks to play the game in any sensible matter. Do all fifteen dailies for crazy rewards, weeklies are even more important, do that raid as soon as it goes off cooldown. The end result is a narrow hallway of gameplay you must tread in order to be competitive.

    Old MMOs did not suffer from this issue. They gave you a world of things to enjoy, each as rewarding as you are good at them, and you did whichever interested you most. Wanted to get rich by merchanting? Great, go do that! Want to skill and craft? No problem. Farm mobs as soon as you log in without any dailies to complete before then? Do you, booboo!

    Unfortunately, most modern MMOs do not have this. They do not trust the player to gravitate to the content they enjoy, if it exists at all, instead opting to shove generic tasks down their throats with a metaphoric fire hose. I'm sure there are statistical advantages to this: more player retention if they know which simple tasks to do and get greatly rewarded for completing them, but in the process, the game starts to feel like a job, a shopping list of chores you must go through to play efficiently at the cost of freedom and personal fulfillment.

    That's just my two cents.

    This is exactly how I feel as well. I have faced this last time when I played WoW Shadowlands over a year ago. When I logged in I needed to work this long chore list through, and usually with main alt as well. After that, if I had time left, I could actually play the game. And that alone was enough for me to quit the game 3 months after the launch.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    edited June 2022
    I have to admit that sometimes nostalgia has a huge role when examining older MMOs. I have recently played Runescape after I played the Classic version almost 20 years ago. I stopped playing WoW during MoP in 2013 and I went back when Classic WoW was introduced 2019. First I was excited going back on both and really enjoyed my time. However, I got bored both relatively fast and especially the systems felt outdated. I can acknowledge that both games were great back in the golden days and I spend a lot time with them but the same glory was apparently gone. This was just my experience and I know people who have played classic versions of games and enjoying those more than current games. Even so I think current games can loan features from older MMOs and mold them to fit today if needed.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2022
    Otr wrote: »
    In the old days i think you would expect to get a legendary weapon and wear it proudly. It should look much better than regular weapons.

    Now you buy cosmetics from the market place and you got your nice looking character by paying some money.
    In the old days, gamers would wear whatever they considered to be BiS gear and wear it proudly no matter how garish and ugly they looked in mismatched attire.
    Now, we get to use cosmetics to look like we would in film. Or how we would imagine ourselves in a story.

    To get more people to stay longterm, there has to be a way for the story to continue past a month or two.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    In the old days, gamers would wear whatever they considered to be BiS gear and wear it proudly no matter how garish and ugly they looked in mismatched attire.
    Now, we get to use cosmetics to look like we would in film. Or how we would imagine ourselves in a story.
    Back in my days and in my neck of the woods we just had pretty gear sets! You could look great while also being BiS.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It was possible, but most gamers didn't care if they looked ugly. They just cared about having the power they wanted.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    It was possible, but most gamers didn't care if they looked ugly. They just cared about having the power they wanted.
    That's why L2 was better than all those other games B) The pretty gear set was the BiS.
  • BalanzBalanz Member, Alpha Two
    Nowadays, if you want to look good wearing the right gear, it's like "Where my money, BIS?"
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