Overall, the combat looks exactly like what I want. It looks fluid and satisfying. I am very excited for where you are going with combat.
Some attacks, risky attacks, probably should require some commitment. That's part of the strategy in combat. The reward should be worth the risk. I understand there is a problem with animation locking, but I am concerned that some of the complaining about animation locking is the result of bad player combat decisions. When such players improve, they may not complain so much. Such attacks could be options that players who hate animation locks could avoid selecting.
I like the weapon size. That's a very important issue for me. The sword shown is fantasy size. Use of a greatsword in combat is probably a fantasy. That's fine, fantasy is the genre. Most other games, however, size the weapon to the point that it is immersion breaking. It hides the characters, which are more important to me than the weapon. Weapon size can create a distorted picture of the whole environment. Some restraint in weapon size is very welcome. I think you are now in a very good place. A test will be the great mace/hammer. New World really messed up with the hammer (and the great axe).
I would like to second the comments for toning down the swing splash a bit. Try to reserve some of the flashy for when something really significant happens, like use of an ultimate. The less flashy there is all the time, the more it matters when it happens.
Many have focused on the tab vs targeting issue. My main concern in this area is that I be able to take some action to dodge or mitigate the effect of an attack. I don't like combat where I get hit whatever I do. I tend to like to wear lighter armor and rely on mobility. When I wear heavy armor, I accept that am going to take a few hits, but rely on the mitigation.
I do not care much for the golden hammer attack that comes out of nowhere. It makes fighters seem like more of a melee mage. Perhaps reserve such effects for fighter/mages (...maybe that elf was fighter/mage, in which case, I'm much less annoyed with it). I prefer abilities more tied to the weapon, even if some are a bit fantastic.
The daggers look absolutely great the only thing I dislike is that it goes through the animations a bit too fast.
The 2hander also looks very great with the swings looking like they have a good weighty feel without it looking super sluggish. The only thing I can say I dislike it the very bright and visible yellow trail that happens when you swing. I think it should probably be a bit more transparent and a little darker
The combat looks good, kinda like a GW2 clone which isn't bad. What I'm worried about is it just being an AOE fest. The beauty of WoWs PvP was the crowd control, if you could add skill based crowd control attacks and abilities to counter it would be revolutionary. I know I haven't seen any abilities yet but if you can add great CC diversity between classes and have it require skill with action based combat it would make Ashes of Creation combat unique and better from the rest of the pack.
Love the speed and dodge capabilities, its not slow but at the same time not to fast. Animation of the sword seemed great I liked the speed. (would be cool to have more heavy weapon though like ultra great sword or giant hammer.)
Aoes
Noticed with the hammer ability that you have to aim your spot then it being as easy a aoe which also is a good direction to go so people have to aim their skills rather then look and just random aoe an area.-
Hey there, Would like to say this is my first post here and plan to buy an Alpha key supporter pack after seeing the latest video!
One thing i am concerned about with the animations of basic attacks is
* The attacks are yellow, I love Warrior classes in every game and would prefer the color to be Red, Black or no color animation at all, Will this be possible? I really really DO NOT WANT yellow attacks as a berserker warrior wannabe
* Are the skills the character is using "Holy/Light Based making them yellow?"
* I would love to see that Giant Hammer be summoned as a physical Solid Hammer for the skill
* ANy plans of being able to Dual Wield x2 2Hand Weapons? This is always my dream class
Thanks to all for the hard work its lookimg amazing this showcase was great and looks in a step of the right direction to me !
I agree with some people saying it looks to cartoonish and it might break the vibe the overall look. Maybe turn it down a little or make it an option to remove certain special effects ( i admit i am a realism fan.. so little biased..)
Will it be possible to actually remove damage shown? I will likely be in the minority asking for that, but i think during pve or levelling I want to be immersed without seeing numbers everywhere. The for pvp it would make sense. The same goes with HP bar. Would love an options to hide or show it.
I know this will add a lot of additional work for animations and models, but having am immersive way of showing HP. Like progressive limping, bleeding, pieces falling off etc could be really amazing and give an idea how far the NPC (player also?) is to dying without HP bar.
Will we have different sounds for different weapons hitting different materials and/or armour.
Really impressive work so far! Cannot wait for the future.
I'm incredibly pleased with the demonstration, I have a few concerns and suggestions though.
-What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Acknowledgement by the target that it has been hit, through the sound of the strike and especially some kind of flinching indicator on the mob (especially on a Crit), and having the speed of an attack slower than instantaneous.
-Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
So far, the missing indicator of the weapon striking the mob and the mob's reaction to the hit; I'll be real, I can imagine a golem or elemental might be a poor example, but with heavier weapons I should expect some give on the target, no staggering at all. Additionally, I feel that the heavy weapon and to a much lesser extent the daggers were a little too fast in the animation, I think the weapon trail was solid, the strike of the weapon hitting the ground is perfect, but the swing feels too fast, unrealistically so which adds to a weightlessness factor at odds with the rest of the attack; a slight reduction for medium and a bigger reduction for heavier weapon attack speed I think would make for a more satisfying visual effect. If there were to be a slightly slower initial swing that gains momentum until the back-half of the swing being max speed would be the ideal to me (there was a little bit of that on some of the heavy weapon swings, but I think it was more like 35% where it hit max speed). That would sell the rest of the weight and impact alongside a stagger effect when struck, though I expect that will be part of the combat before too long. As it stands, this is a STRONG start.
-Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
World of Warcraft hits the Impact and Swing Speed parts of Combat very well, staggering mobs on hit, with a more impactful stagger on critical hit. WoW misses follow-through attacks in comparison to these, however I think Ashes combat could certainly benefit from a slightly slower and staggering attack/hit animation.
-Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am very excited for the ranged weapon attacks, and I'm quite pleased with the sound effects and environmental effects of attacks; I'd love to see blocked/deflected attacks sparking and clanging, and with ranged attacks being deflected I'd love to see arrows breaking and flying off into the air or ground (with like a half-second delay before vanishing).
I hope to see heavier attacks in a kind of ascending order; daggers > shortswords > hand axes > maces; short spears > longswords > battleaxes > warhammers; long spears > staves > greatswords > greataxes > mauls. Swords and similar bladed weapons tend to be more balanced and thus faster, axes are overall lighter but forward-weighted and thus more impactful, and of course big blunt weapons use that greater weight to drive into enemies with serious impact and weight. That's how I expect the weapons to play out, if not I'd advocate for that ordering or close to it.
At present, I see a fantastic start, with a slight issue of impact/weight not quite lining up between the correct impact of the ground effect, the close-but-not-quite weight behind the swing, and the non-existent stagger of impact on the target. With those three parts being in-line with eachother and having solid, visceral sound effects, I think we'd have the perfect combat.
If this is in development I cant wait to see the live game.
A few things then:
Steven get that cough checked.
Combat stance feels a bit out of center. I think the character leens too far out of the core center of the body plus it looks funny.
The combat feels just right, however, the individual animations comprising the attacks are a bit too fast.
I noticed how a couple skills can be use with any type of melee weapon. If possible, devote a bit of time to create seperate animations for dual wield. Dagger sword shield it doesnt matter. Not much, just the left hand should be free from the right hand, not copy paste from the two handed. Same goes for a spear. It will require its own tuning.
I noticed the godlike hammer skill. Please dont overdo it by adding more of those. They cross over to magic abilities, not weapon.
Yes it grows. It looks so good. Keep it up. You are the only studio that creates a passion product. Take your time, but stick to your vision. For your first game you should stay true to its philosophy.
1) For me the basic melee attacks should be simple, show the hands, weapons and footwork of the character.
2) No they look so good.
3) The souls games, witcher 3, dragon age inquisition and Elden Ring did GREAT JOB with their basic melee attacks. Sekiro as well. They paid attention to detail and conveyed the MASTERY of using weapons, but kept it simple and realistic.
The Assassins Creed Origins Odyssey and Valhala are examples to avoid.
4) I am concerned a bit about the speed of the basic attacks. Too fast. I also hope there wont be excessive usage of magic hammers crushing down. Weapon combat isnt magic combat. There has to be unique animations for two handed and polearm, distinct from dual wield in which the hands must be free from one another.
I sat on edge of my chair from start to finish, Seeing how this have developed since alpha is impressive. Such improvment and potential with an animation driven combat system. having devs there talking about their passion and achivments during development is such a plus for building hype for me. I felt like I just wanted to get in there and start swinging in the air that's how cool it looked!
All this is from a spectators point of view so they are not based on how it feels at all.
In general the new combat looked super fast. but also very smooth.
I do wonder how such fast combat will play out in a larger scale especially if the kill time is supose to be quite long.
I love the direction that the basic combat is going. Action based, AoE cleave, High Mobility. Both reactive and strategic gameplay that was mentioned.
Rolling earth elementals animation was so amazing. Them spawning from the ground not just walking around made it feel so immersive.
Sword sounded chunky and heavy, particles from hits and sword trails looked clean and recognizable.
To be able to strafe/move in any direction while hitting is looking very promising, As Steven mentioned for PvP that is one of those things only players know the impact of. Further stating gamers are making this game.
No bigger opinion about text numbers other than that I'm greateful for it being adjustable making it very good for accessability.
When getting hit I almost didn't notice any feedback, at least not the feedback I was expecting from getting hit by a large rock (Not any gameplay related impact, losing controll of the character or being forcfully moved in any way would feel bad i bet if it's normal auto attacks from monsters)
- At 11:56 in the "Ashes of Creation Alpha Two Basic Melee Weapon Attack Update" you can see there is an animation being played for being hit. but it's not easily recognizable while moving / attacking.
- At 16:50 standing still have a very noticable impact and that one looks great.
Except for the knockback stone toss like ability from the large golems, and that didn''t look like a large/heavy impact at all. it looked like a very smooth knockback.
Sword attacks looked very fast, for being such a large weapon, (Not just the attack speed but also the swing speed) this might be needed for it to feel responsive but it looked a bit off to me.
A very nice addition is that the daggers had different attack animations depending on movment direction.
Overall I loved the update. can't wait to see what you can deliver in the future!
I noticed something HUGE that I haven't seen ANYONE mention about the combat.
The greatsword created a "scraping" effect on the ground. This is a major visual effect that can be expanded upon.
First off, the SFX for the interaction between the different weapons and the things they are hitting or interacting with will add a lot more realism and immersion into the combat making it feel more fluid just based on the sounds being well timed. Additional SFX that are based on the different weapons and how/what they hit would add to it as well. Hammers hitting plate/metal giving a different sound than swords and daggers slashing at them.
Secondly, what about mixing Seasons with Combat? Imagine greatsword whirlwinds spinning in the winter and dusting the battlefield. Fireballs melting the snow as they impact or burning up dead leaves in the fall. The potential for effects to create more realistic and immersive experiences with just the things you have shown seems endless.
I love the game so far comparing to the other MMOs. I think the only game which had fight as good as here was Wild Star. I hope you will make mobs stagger more relatively to the attack strengths but at the same time mobs should try to avoid attacks a bit to not get staggered all the time. I would also love a doge more similar to Elden Ring's one and not a teleport (at least I think I would like it more). But it is really good already. I love it. I didn't see Bow play yet. If you have any to show please link the video.
Great job
Just heard a question about different combat animations for different races answered on stream, and it made me think. Something you could do is make different races have same animations, but different combat stances. Like an elf would hold a sword in a different way then a human - probably more elegantly, and an ork might hold a sword like it is just a big stick that happened to have some sharp edges. The "starting point" of all the animations could be a bit different, so you will get a unique feel for your race, but the animations themselves could be exactly the same, so developers don't have to miss their children growing up making 100500 animations for each race.
Hi all! I created an additional post around combat - I highly recommend reading it before leaving feedback! I updated the OP with a link. You can also find it here
I thank you for listening to players feedback, this is something that most game companies do not do. Big improvement from Alpha1, but there are so many things that are still not right:
1- Stagger should depend on which weapon you use, I believe that light weapons (daggers) should not stagger but heavy weapons (great sword) should have at least a minimum stagger effect, maybe somewhat less than lost ark but still...
2- Combat lacks audio feedback that would make it more impactful
3- Backpedaling DOES NOT slow you down, this is terrible!
4- Skill animations are too slow (especially the hammer one), having a slow paced game with backpaddling means that the game is not competitive, whereas even a clicker could play...this needs to be improved
5- Blocking needs to be re-worked....why would I ever block and take 50% damage when I have 4 dashes? It makes no sense...They must add a whole new blocking mechanic, such as a stamina bar or with blocking skill points...and blocking effectiveness must also depend on which weapon you are using
Personally I would also remove the yellow trail of the sword and replace it with a similar effect that the daggers have (sort of wind cut), as well as I would increase the basic attacks speed by an additional 10-15% for all weapons.
But the MOST important thing is that, they MUST hire pro players from other games and do what they say, because Steven and the devs are definitely not pro players, they are casual at most (and this is me being polite) so they don't know what a good and polished combat is. Please take this post as constructive feedback, at the end of the day we all want a good game to play!
What i like about tab target is the feeling of "locking my character" on a mob. I'd like to have an auto attack locked on a mob (aka tab target), and reserved all the actions combat for abilities.
I really love the direction but I really feel that each weapon needs to "look and feel" like that weapon class with the appropriate attributes. For example using the 2h sword the abilities look great, but the AA swings and abilities seemed to be VERY fast for how big of a sword and how much "weight" should be behind such a big weapon.
Honestly WoWs combat is still the absolute BEST of any MMO to every exist. Fluidity, responsiveness, weight, feel, speed, pacing, etc all feel great across every class. While I dont believe Ashes should be a WoW clone, the combat is something that is unparalleled.
Based on what I saw in the recent video showcasing the changes in combat... I like what I generally see
The two hand weapon size is a good size. Any bigger/bulkier and it begins to lean towards the buster weapons you see in JRPG's and I don't feel the buster weapons would be ideal for this games design and immersion.
It seems a bit fast paced but overall it's looking good. The weight of the weapons is going in the right direction. I personally like the more weighted side of the 2h weapons rather than the dual wield light weapons weight as it seems a bit too fast and floaty with how you attack and move at the same times with the pacing of character movement. With the goal for distance closers and what not, you shouldn't need to be able to do dance around your target while attacking so freely. I would dial back the amount of mobility a bit during attacks especially if you have rolls, blinks, dodges, blocks, and distance closers. Just seems a bit over the top for mobility options especially considering the class abilities are going to play a big factor in the melee combat to come as well.
That said, I dont know what kind of resources are consumed for each attack based on weapon weight involved which will be something that get sorted out in further testing for balance between light through heavy weapons.
But overall, looks good! Glad you decided to make the switch to UE5
I haven't commented on something in a log time but this was a especially juicy update so I definitely wanted to put my 2 cents in.
First off, I was a bit disappointed we didn't get to see more unique weapons like the spear, mace, halberds, or maybe even a cool staff. However, some is better than none . What was shown though was 1000000% better (I cannot stress this enough) from apocalypse and even from what I saw of alpha 1.
What I liked:
The character felt very grounded only where appropriate (e.g. doing large swings or big spins) but felt more agile when doing faster attacks (e.g. the middle strike through with the sword). Having this mix makes things feel not so bland.
The sound effects where not too loud and were satisfying. I also loved that there was quite a range of distinct sounds.
The attacks where simple yet they conveyed clearly what was going on. In alpha 1 all the effects where just too much with particles everywhere. Here it seems like they have been paired down and actually have a focus of what they are trying to convey. For example, we have clean weapon trails with some nice ripples that flow into paired down hit effects. Everything matches and feels like it belongs.
INTERACTION WITH THE ENVIRONMENT. My absolute favorite part was the fact that the tip of the sword drew a line in the ground and created some sparks. It was definitely the thing that sold believability the most, and it is what I want to see more of going forward (where appropriate as always )
What I thought was wrong:
The color of the weapon trails was off. When seeing the great sword combos for the first time the yellow was very jarring. When it got to the daggers the trails felt a lot more natural and less disruptive. I think this is because the silvery color is closer to the actual weapon color, which makes it more of a cohesive afterimage type effect as it cuts through the space.
Transitions between heavy attacks and movements didn't seem smooth.
The pushback felt like the character was on a ice skating rink. I wish the concept of weight was incorporated more into this as well. Maybe doing dampening of the pushback velocity over time and adding some skid effects could make it feel better.
I wish there was more weight to the blocking hit effects depending on weapon and maybe some shake to really feel like you are taking the hits. Blocking didn't feel up to par with everything else.
First time posting on the forums, though I’ve been following development since the beginning. Just wanted to say the progress on combat is exactly what I was hoping for! Well done! Seeing the decals on the ground from every heavy sword swing makes me almost want to switch from my usual rogue toolkit to a 2h…almost…
Lean this direction much, much harder. Especially when it comes to magic. Remove all static casting, unless it's a large spell, it's horrible.
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prymortalMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I DONT LIKE
The "floatyness".
I agree with this, but as someone who has used UE5 it's a common aspect of its animation system when zoomed in, when zoomed out it generally looks fine as with all UE5 games.
My only concern is on that Giant Hammer, its only use now is to waste an attack. It either needs to impact in front of the player & have a smaller SFX animation while doing the same size impact. Or the SFX/animation needs to hit & go through the ground in a sort of "T / Hammer shape" AOE.
I am a little worried about the dual daggers they look a little to fast & a little to high damaging. But as we have not test it in game yet, I'd hold off making changes at this point.
As for direction, flow e.t.c. Good job keep it up.
Having watched the video several times, and read a lot of commentary, much of it over my head, here is my detailed feedback. I was very impressed with the combat shown, even though I expect to suck at it.
For context, I have been clean and sober from MMOs for over 19 years, but Ashes of Creation and another project have lured me back. I am older, have issues with my hands, and suck at fighting games like Mortal Combat. I have been playing and DMing D&D and other RPGs for over 45 years.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Basic attacks should be physically sustainable over time. I expect long fights.
Verisimilitude, but not necessarily realism. I should be able to consistently reason about how the basic attacks work with a specific weapon. Different weapons should feel different, and be more or less appropriate under various circumstances.
For example, a rapier should be less effective against plate mail than a great hammer, but a dagger might be relatively more effective against someone in a robe. For reference, you might look at the CalTech/MIT/Warlock D&D variant attack matrix from the 70s.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
They seemed too similar to each other. Daggers should have been much less effective against Rock. The fighter should have been hampered enough that they consider changing to a heavier weapon.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Not a computer game and not directly applicable, but again I would draw your attention to CalTech/MIT/Warlock D&D. Characters had to carry at least a few different weapons depending on the circumstances.
Weapon lengths mattered. For example, a weapon was more effective blocking or parrying a weapon of a similar length, and a longer weapon was less effective at blocking a shorter weapon than vice versa.
Some weapons were more effective against lightly armored foes, some better against medium armor, and some weapons fared poorly against plate. Other weapons had a moderate chance against any armor.
Some weapons were more likely to cause bleeding, stuns or knockdowns.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
If constant movement, changes in direction, and frequent button presses are required, I personally will not be able to fight for long. I expect to be grossly outmaneuvered in PvP, but I accept that.
The PvE combat shown made sense to me, with the fighter withdrawing to keep his enemies in front of him. I could keep up the pace of combat shown.
The game should not accommodate my limits at the expense of the enjoyment of the players for which this game is intended. The design of Ashes of Creation is so ambitious and awesome that I will risk sucking horribly at PvP in order to play the rest of the game.
Based on the combat demonstration, I'd guess that between Pets, Ranged, and Heavy Weapons, that PvE is within my reach.
I must confess that I don't like those melee combat animations AT ALL.
Everything in this game looks realistic and super-immersive, from the environments to the look of the characters, but then you throw in these combat animations that look like they are straight out of some silly Korean MMO. The movements look just wrong and they are not grounded in reality in the least. While I understand this is a fantasy game, I still think the way a weapon is wielded should be based on reality and physics. Nobody would swirl their sword around like we see in that video, that is plain silly. I also dislike how in several frames the tip of the greatsword is touching the ground as if it was too heavy to lift and be handled properly. If that was meant to give the impression of weight it is totally off the mark. The impression of weight should come form how the body of the wielder adjusts and reacts to the movements of their weapon, and by the impact the weapon has on the enemies (knockbacks, staggers, recoils, etc).
I understand that melee combat cannot be overly realistic in a fantasy game, or it may look too slow, but there are fantasy games out there that showcase melee combat just right, with a good balance of realistic body movements and dynamism. One such example is the Witcher series, where melee combat looks fluid, pleasant to watch and yet not over the top as it is in those silly Korean MMOs or the demo you just showed. Have a good balance of parries and attacks, some dodging and some jump attacks, but do not use silly moves like spin attacks or over-the-top frontal slashes. And please also get rid of that giant golden hammer animation, leave that stuff for spells and magic attacks.
The dagger animations were slightly better, I think, since the movements were more restrained, and yet they looked way too fast and somewhat too repetitive.
On the plus side, I like that you don't have giant weapons.
To sum it up, here is what I think good melee combat looks like in a fantasy setting, this short video shows a decomposition of all combat aspects in the Witcher 3 (mostly melee attacks, you can skip the signs part):
MMOs have tried generally two types of class combat design: 1) Fixed class and mechanism with some variation from choices (like wow MoP - SL and others) and 2) "Play however you want" (like ESO, GW2, even wildstad, and a countless others)
The 1st option usually sounds "boring" I guess and devs try to use the choice thing of 2) to make the game sound more exciting and customizable, but from what I've seen 2 almost always fails because of several reasons:
1) If the game does not directly implement tank/healer/dps system, BUT STILL asks for tanking and healing and doing damage, building pure roles out of your "play however you want" character will always be better. That's because at the minimum if you have an option to multiply your damage by 5% twice, vs 5% once to damage and 5% once to healing, full DPS class + full healer class combined will have more throughput than two half healer half DPS classes.
2) If the has tank/healer/dps defined for you, but also allows to play however you want within those classes (wildstar, Lost Ark), then there isn't a very unique internal gameplay mechanic of the class because you need a handful of core actives and passives to build one (wow specs).
In both cases, you "put together" a spec in whatever way your game allows in order to have maximum throughput. Lost Ark and Wildstar are both examples where you value points into utility much less than points into throughput, because utility is perceived mostly as binary (you either have blink or not), but improving it instead of % damage is pointless.
What happens when your classes are put together instead of pre-defined to function a certain way?
Either the game dev intended a certain build to be the way to play a character, or did not, and the players figured it out. Eventually the game has to balance around a handful of "best version of X" builds.
If the dev did NOT intend a certain build design, it will likely be gimmicky and feel awkward to play. The satisfaction then comes from just the result, not the process.
If the dev DID intend a certain build design, then might as well pre-package the class like that (wow specs), no? Because in either case, players will eventually learn all the builds anyways, and only a new player will suffer from this pretend "play-as-you-want" style because they have to go look for resources for what is actually good. If they don't, and actually do "play as they want", their interaction in group content with experienced players will create toxic environments ("ughhh why isn't this guy playing the right way" - he might have if he wasn't presented with a pile of garbage to dig through)
So in short, does the game have trinity or a version of that in mind? Do classes explicitly fall into these categories?
If not, what are you doing that as far as i know every other game has failed at, to NOT have the game end up at an equilibrium point where it de facto functions as a trinity and class-based game but without intentional design which makes it pretty shitty compared to intentional design?
Overall, this is CERTAINLY a step in the right direction. From my own opinion and what I can tell from my guild mates, this appears to be a diamond in the rough. The combos look cool, while still being somewhat realistic in the swings and strikes.
What I love...
1. The basic attack combo. You really outdone yourselves there, there's a since of grandeur that other MMO's miss when you're using an auto attack/basic attack. You guys seem to have hit the mark in a pretty amazing way.
2. The Floating UI text. I LOVE BEING ABLE TO CUSTOMIZE THIS. It really helps since I have poor eyesight. It seems silly to lock in something like that outside of addons. Kudos to you guys for making it so accessible.
3. Being able to switch between your weapons mid fight. I love the versatility this offers, being able to weave in weapon attacks and switch on a dime in emergency situations makes for some amazing gameplay potential.
What I think can be fixed...
1. the fluidity of the animations. This was the most jarring thing to me. The animations were cool, but it looked like it was missing some... frames? I don't know how to explain it, it just didn't have a fluid motion in them.
2. A stronger indicator for when the player character is damaged. The blood was just not enough impact to represent damage. I would argue the same for the enemies, we need some stronger feedback when a hit connects.
3. Less particle effects on the basic attack. It just needs to be toned down a bit.
All in all, I'm STOKED about what's to come in the future, you guys really look like you're taking the right steps!
I think it looked good overall.
Interested to see how this impacts weapons such as staves, hammers, axes etc.
Improvement suggestions:
* Micro-stagger / big stagger / knock down scaling with light hits / power attacks / combo attacks.
* Game-Object interaction: sparks on hitting stones, splinters when hitting wood, cut off grass flying through air when swinging a weapon in tall grass.
* The Yellow glow could be downscaled a tad, but I think its cool with a colored attack depending on the class. It made a very Paladin of the Light feel while using the two hand sword. So maybe a large barbarian type swinging an axe would have a more red tint to the strikes.
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Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
Agree with most of the forum community feedback given.
General perception overall positive and heading in the right direction.
effects are bit to flashy.
enemy/mob impact feedback may not be shown in testing but making a note.
Daggers speed seems ok.
Great sword still a bit to flimsy. could be slower, more windup/down and audibly lower whooshing in pitch.
Comments
Some attacks, risky attacks, probably should require some commitment. That's part of the strategy in combat. The reward should be worth the risk. I understand there is a problem with animation locking, but I am concerned that some of the complaining about animation locking is the result of bad player combat decisions. When such players improve, they may not complain so much. Such attacks could be options that players who hate animation locks could avoid selecting.
I like the weapon size. That's a very important issue for me. The sword shown is fantasy size. Use of a greatsword in combat is probably a fantasy. That's fine, fantasy is the genre. Most other games, however, size the weapon to the point that it is immersion breaking. It hides the characters, which are more important to me than the weapon. Weapon size can create a distorted picture of the whole environment. Some restraint in weapon size is very welcome. I think you are now in a very good place. A test will be the great mace/hammer. New World really messed up with the hammer (and the great axe).
I would like to second the comments for toning down the swing splash a bit. Try to reserve some of the flashy for when something really significant happens, like use of an ultimate. The less flashy there is all the time, the more it matters when it happens.
Many have focused on the tab vs targeting issue. My main concern in this area is that I be able to take some action to dodge or mitigate the effect of an attack. I don't like combat where I get hit whatever I do. I tend to like to wear lighter armor and rely on mobility. When I wear heavy armor, I accept that am going to take a few hits, but rely on the mitigation.
I do not care much for the golden hammer attack that comes out of nowhere. It makes fighters seem like more of a melee mage. Perhaps reserve such effects for fighter/mages (...maybe that elf was fighter/mage, in which case, I'm much less annoyed with it). I prefer abilities more tied to the weapon, even if some are a bit fantastic.
The 2hander also looks very great with the swings looking like they have a good weighty feel without it looking super sluggish. The only thing I can say I dislike it the very bright and visible yellow trail that happens when you swing. I think it should probably be a bit more transparent and a little darker
The combat looks good, kinda like a GW2 clone which isn't bad. What I'm worried about is it just being an AOE fest. The beauty of WoWs PvP was the crowd control, if you could add skill based crowd control attacks and abilities to counter it would be revolutionary. I know I haven't seen any abilities yet but if you can add great CC diversity between classes and have it require skill with action based combat it would make Ashes of Creation combat unique and better from the rest of the pack.
Love the speed and dodge capabilities, its not slow but at the same time not to fast. Animation of the sword seemed great I liked the speed. (would be cool to have more heavy weapon though like ultra great sword or giant hammer.)
Aoes
Noticed with the hammer ability that you have to aim your spot then it being as easy a aoe which also is a good direction to go so people have to aim their skills rather then look and just random aoe an area.-
One thing i am concerned about with the animations of basic attacks is
* The attacks are yellow, I love Warrior classes in every game and would prefer the color to be Red, Black or no color animation at all, Will this be possible? I really really DO NOT WANT yellow attacks as a berserker warrior wannabe
* Are the skills the character is using "Holy/Light Based making them yellow?"
* I would love to see that Giant Hammer be summoned as a physical Solid Hammer for the skill
* ANy plans of being able to Dual Wield x2 2Hand Weapons? This is always my dream class
Thanks to all for the hard work its lookimg amazing this showcase was great and looks in a step of the right direction to me !
A few questions and comments:
Really impressive work so far! Cannot wait for the future.
Best,
-What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Acknowledgement by the target that it has been hit, through the sound of the strike and especially some kind of flinching indicator on the mob (especially on a Crit), and having the speed of an attack slower than instantaneous.
-Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
So far, the missing indicator of the weapon striking the mob and the mob's reaction to the hit; I'll be real, I can imagine a golem or elemental might be a poor example, but with heavier weapons I should expect some give on the target, no staggering at all. Additionally, I feel that the heavy weapon and to a much lesser extent the daggers were a little too fast in the animation, I think the weapon trail was solid, the strike of the weapon hitting the ground is perfect, but the swing feels too fast, unrealistically so which adds to a weightlessness factor at odds with the rest of the attack; a slight reduction for medium and a bigger reduction for heavier weapon attack speed I think would make for a more satisfying visual effect. If there were to be a slightly slower initial swing that gains momentum until the back-half of the swing being max speed would be the ideal to me (there was a little bit of that on some of the heavy weapon swings, but I think it was more like 35% where it hit max speed). That would sell the rest of the weight and impact alongside a stagger effect when struck, though I expect that will be part of the combat before too long. As it stands, this is a STRONG start.
-Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
World of Warcraft hits the Impact and Swing Speed parts of Combat very well, staggering mobs on hit, with a more impactful stagger on critical hit. WoW misses follow-through attacks in comparison to these, however I think Ashes combat could certainly benefit from a slightly slower and staggering attack/hit animation.
-Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am very excited for the ranged weapon attacks, and I'm quite pleased with the sound effects and environmental effects of attacks; I'd love to see blocked/deflected attacks sparking and clanging, and with ranged attacks being deflected I'd love to see arrows breaking and flying off into the air or ground (with like a half-second delay before vanishing).
I hope to see heavier attacks in a kind of ascending order; daggers > shortswords > hand axes > maces; short spears > longswords > battleaxes > warhammers; long spears > staves > greatswords > greataxes > mauls. Swords and similar bladed weapons tend to be more balanced and thus faster, axes are overall lighter but forward-weighted and thus more impactful, and of course big blunt weapons use that greater weight to drive into enemies with serious impact and weight. That's how I expect the weapons to play out, if not I'd advocate for that ordering or close to it.
At present, I see a fantastic start, with a slight issue of impact/weight not quite lining up between the correct impact of the ground effect, the close-but-not-quite weight behind the swing, and the non-existent stagger of impact on the target. With those three parts being in-line with eachother and having solid, visceral sound effects, I think we'd have the perfect combat.
A few things then:
Steven get that cough checked.
Combat stance feels a bit out of center. I think the character leens too far out of the core center of the body plus it looks funny.
The combat feels just right, however, the individual animations comprising the attacks are a bit too fast.
I noticed how a couple skills can be use with any type of melee weapon. If possible, devote a bit of time to create seperate animations for dual wield. Dagger sword shield it doesnt matter. Not much, just the left hand should be free from the right hand, not copy paste from the two handed. Same goes for a spear. It will require its own tuning.
I noticed the godlike hammer skill. Please dont overdo it by adding more of those. They cross over to magic abilities, not weapon.
Yes it grows. It looks so good. Keep it up. You are the only studio that creates a passion product. Take your time, but stick to your vision. For your first game you should stay true to its philosophy.
2) No they look so good.
3) The souls games, witcher 3, dragon age inquisition and Elden Ring did GREAT JOB with their basic melee attacks. Sekiro as well. They paid attention to detail and conveyed the MASTERY of using weapons, but kept it simple and realistic.
The Assassins Creed Origins Odyssey and Valhala are examples to avoid.
4) I am concerned a bit about the speed of the basic attacks. Too fast. I also hope there wont be excessive usage of magic hammers crushing down. Weapon combat isnt magic combat. There has to be unique animations for two handed and polearm, distinct from dual wield in which the hands must be free from one another.
All this is from a spectators point of view so they are not based on how it feels at all.
In general the new combat looked super fast. but also very smooth.
I do wonder how such fast combat will play out in a larger scale especially if the kill time is supose to be quite long.
I love the direction that the basic combat is going. Action based, AoE cleave, High Mobility. Both reactive and strategic gameplay that was mentioned.
Rolling earth elementals animation was so amazing. Them spawning from the ground not just walking around made it feel so immersive.
Sword sounded chunky and heavy, particles from hits and sword trails looked clean and recognizable.
To be able to strafe/move in any direction while hitting is looking very promising, As Steven mentioned for PvP that is one of those things only players know the impact of. Further stating gamers are making this game.
No bigger opinion about text numbers other than that I'm greateful for it being adjustable making it very good for accessability.
When getting hit I almost didn't notice any feedback, at least not the feedback I was expecting from getting hit by a large rock (Not any gameplay related impact, losing controll of the character or being forcfully moved in any way would feel bad i bet if it's normal auto attacks from monsters)
- At 11:56 in the "Ashes of Creation Alpha Two Basic Melee Weapon Attack Update" you can see there is an animation being played for being hit. but it's not easily recognizable while moving / attacking.
- At 16:50 standing still have a very noticable impact and that one looks great.
Except for the knockback stone toss like ability from the large golems, and that didn''t look like a large/heavy impact at all. it looked like a very smooth knockback.
Sword attacks looked very fast, for being such a large weapon, (Not just the attack speed but also the swing speed) this might be needed for it to feel responsive but it looked a bit off to me.
A very nice addition is that the daggers had different attack animations depending on movment direction.
Overall I loved the update. can't wait to see what you can deliver in the future!
The greatsword created a "scraping" effect on the ground. This is a major visual effect that can be expanded upon.
First off, the SFX for the interaction between the different weapons and the things they are hitting or interacting with will add a lot more realism and immersion into the combat making it feel more fluid just based on the sounds being well timed. Additional SFX that are based on the different weapons and how/what they hit would add to it as well. Hammers hitting plate/metal giving a different sound than swords and daggers slashing at them.
Secondly, what about mixing Seasons with Combat? Imagine greatsword whirlwinds spinning in the winter and dusting the battlefield. Fireballs melting the snow as they impact or burning up dead leaves in the fall. The potential for effects to create more realistic and immersive experiences with just the things you have shown seems endless.
I'm looking forward to what's to come!
Great job
1- Stagger should depend on which weapon you use, I believe that light weapons (daggers) should not stagger but heavy weapons (great sword) should have at least a minimum stagger effect, maybe somewhat less than lost ark but still...
2- Combat lacks audio feedback that would make it more impactful
3- Backpedaling DOES NOT slow you down, this is terrible!
4- Skill animations are too slow (especially the hammer one), having a slow paced game with backpaddling means that the game is not competitive, whereas even a clicker could play...this needs to be improved
5- Blocking needs to be re-worked....why would I ever block and take 50% damage when I have 4 dashes? It makes no sense...They must add a whole new blocking mechanic, such as a stamina bar or with blocking skill points...and blocking effectiveness must also depend on which weapon you are using
Personally I would also remove the yellow trail of the sword and replace it with a similar effect that the daggers have (sort of wind cut), as well as I would increase the basic attacks speed by an additional 10-15% for all weapons.
But the MOST important thing is that, they MUST hire pro players from other games and do what they say, because Steven and the devs are definitely not pro players, they are casual at most (and this is me being polite) so they don't know what a good and polished combat is. Please take this post as constructive feedback, at the end of the day we all want a good game to play!
Honestly WoWs combat is still the absolute BEST of any MMO to every exist. Fluidity, responsiveness, weight, feel, speed, pacing, etc all feel great across every class. While I dont believe Ashes should be a WoW clone, the combat is something that is unparalleled.
The two hand weapon size is a good size. Any bigger/bulkier and it begins to lean towards the buster weapons you see in JRPG's and I don't feel the buster weapons would be ideal for this games design and immersion.
It seems a bit fast paced but overall it's looking good. The weight of the weapons is going in the right direction. I personally like the more weighted side of the 2h weapons rather than the dual wield light weapons weight as it seems a bit too fast and floaty with how you attack and move at the same times with the pacing of character movement. With the goal for distance closers and what not, you shouldn't need to be able to do dance around your target while attacking so freely. I would dial back the amount of mobility a bit during attacks especially if you have rolls, blinks, dodges, blocks, and distance closers. Just seems a bit over the top for mobility options especially considering the class abilities are going to play a big factor in the melee combat to come as well.
That said, I dont know what kind of resources are consumed for each attack based on weapon weight involved which will be something that get sorted out in further testing for balance between light through heavy weapons.
But overall, looks good! Glad you decided to make the switch to UE5
First off, I was a bit disappointed we didn't get to see more unique weapons like the spear, mace, halberds, or maybe even a cool staff. However, some is better than none
What I liked:
What I thought was wrong:
The "floatyness".
I agree with this, but as someone who has used UE5 it's a common aspect of its animation system when zoomed in, when zoomed out it generally looks fine as with all UE5 games.
My only concern is on that Giant Hammer, its only use now is to waste an attack. It either needs to impact in front of the player & have a smaller SFX animation while doing the same size impact. Or the SFX/animation needs to hit & go through the ground in a sort of "T / Hammer shape" AOE.
I am a little worried about the dual daggers they look a little to fast & a little to high damaging. But as we have not test it in game yet, I'd hold off making changes at this point.
As for direction, flow e.t.c. Good job keep it up.
For context, I have been clean and sober from MMOs for over 19 years, but Ashes of Creation and another project have lured me back. I am older, have issues with my hands, and suck at fighting games like Mortal Combat. I have been playing and DMing D&D and other RPGs for over 45 years.
Basic attacks should be physically sustainable over time. I expect long fights.
Verisimilitude, but not necessarily realism. I should be able to consistently reason about how the basic attacks work with a specific weapon. Different weapons should feel different, and be more or less appropriate under various circumstances.
For example, a rapier should be less effective against plate mail than a great hammer, but a dagger might be relatively more effective against someone in a robe. For reference, you might look at the CalTech/MIT/Warlock D&D variant attack matrix from the 70s. They seemed too similar to each other. Daggers should have been much less effective against Rock. The fighter should have been hampered enough that they consider changing to a heavier weapon.
Not a computer game and not directly applicable, but again I would draw your attention to CalTech/MIT/Warlock D&D. Characters had to carry at least a few different weapons depending on the circumstances.
Weapon lengths mattered. For example, a weapon was more effective blocking or parrying a weapon of a similar length, and a longer weapon was less effective at blocking a shorter weapon than vice versa.
Some weapons were more effective against lightly armored foes, some better against medium armor, and some weapons fared poorly against plate. Other weapons had a moderate chance against any armor.
Some weapons were more likely to cause bleeding, stuns or knockdowns. If constant movement, changes in direction, and frequent button presses are required, I personally will not be able to fight for long. I expect to be grossly outmaneuvered in PvP, but I accept that.
The PvE combat shown made sense to me, with the fighter withdrawing to keep his enemies in front of him. I could keep up the pace of combat shown.
The game should not accommodate my limits at the expense of the enjoyment of the players for which this game is intended. The design of Ashes of Creation is so ambitious and awesome that I will risk sucking horribly at PvP in order to play the rest of the game.
Based on the combat demonstration, I'd guess that between Pets, Ranged, and Heavy Weapons, that PvE is within my reach.
Everything in this game looks realistic and super-immersive, from the environments to the look of the characters, but then you throw in these combat animations that look like they are straight out of some silly Korean MMO. The movements look just wrong and they are not grounded in reality in the least. While I understand this is a fantasy game, I still think the way a weapon is wielded should be based on reality and physics. Nobody would swirl their sword around like we see in that video, that is plain silly. I also dislike how in several frames the tip of the greatsword is touching the ground as if it was too heavy to lift and be handled properly. If that was meant to give the impression of weight it is totally off the mark. The impression of weight should come form how the body of the wielder adjusts and reacts to the movements of their weapon, and by the impact the weapon has on the enemies (knockbacks, staggers, recoils, etc).
I understand that melee combat cannot be overly realistic in a fantasy game, or it may look too slow, but there are fantasy games out there that showcase melee combat just right, with a good balance of realistic body movements and dynamism. One such example is the Witcher series, where melee combat looks fluid, pleasant to watch and yet not over the top as it is in those silly Korean MMOs or the demo you just showed. Have a good balance of parries and attacks, some dodging and some jump attacks, but do not use silly moves like spin attacks or over-the-top frontal slashes. And please also get rid of that giant golden hammer animation, leave that stuff for spells and magic attacks.
The dagger animations were slightly better, I think, since the movements were more restrained, and yet they looked way too fast and somewhat too repetitive.
On the plus side, I like that you don't have giant weapons.
To sum it up, here is what I think good melee combat looks like in a fantasy setting, this short video shows a decomposition of all combat aspects in the Witcher 3 (mostly melee attacks, you can skip the signs part):
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rPqKqTdkh4E
MMOs have tried generally two types of class combat design: 1) Fixed class and mechanism with some variation from choices (like wow MoP - SL and others) and 2) "Play however you want" (like ESO, GW2, even wildstad, and a countless others)
The 1st option usually sounds "boring" I guess and devs try to use the choice thing of 2) to make the game sound more exciting and customizable, but from what I've seen 2 almost always fails because of several reasons:
1) If the game does not directly implement tank/healer/dps system, BUT STILL asks for tanking and healing and doing damage, building pure roles out of your "play however you want" character will always be better. That's because at the minimum if you have an option to multiply your damage by 5% twice, vs 5% once to damage and 5% once to healing, full DPS class + full healer class combined will have more throughput than two half healer half DPS classes.
2) If the has tank/healer/dps defined for you, but also allows to play however you want within those classes (wildstar, Lost Ark), then there isn't a very unique internal gameplay mechanic of the class because you need a handful of core actives and passives to build one (wow specs).
In both cases, you "put together" a spec in whatever way your game allows in order to have maximum throughput. Lost Ark and Wildstar are both examples where you value points into utility much less than points into throughput, because utility is perceived mostly as binary (you either have blink or not), but improving it instead of % damage is pointless.
What happens when your classes are put together instead of pre-defined to function a certain way?
Either the game dev intended a certain build to be the way to play a character, or did not, and the players figured it out. Eventually the game has to balance around a handful of "best version of X" builds.
If the dev did NOT intend a certain build design, it will likely be gimmicky and feel awkward to play. The satisfaction then comes from just the result, not the process.
If the dev DID intend a certain build design, then might as well pre-package the class like that (wow specs), no? Because in either case, players will eventually learn all the builds anyways, and only a new player will suffer from this pretend "play-as-you-want" style because they have to go look for resources for what is actually good. If they don't, and actually do "play as they want", their interaction in group content with experienced players will create toxic environments ("ughhh why isn't this guy playing the right way" - he might have if he wasn't presented with a pile of garbage to dig through)
So in short, does the game have trinity or a version of that in mind? Do classes explicitly fall into these categories?
If not, what are you doing that as far as i know every other game has failed at, to NOT have the game end up at an equilibrium point where it de facto functions as a trinity and class-based game but without intentional design which makes it pretty shitty compared to intentional design?
What I love...
1. The basic attack combo. You really outdone yourselves there, there's a since of grandeur that other MMO's miss when you're using an auto attack/basic attack. You guys seem to have hit the mark in a pretty amazing way.
2. The Floating UI text. I LOVE BEING ABLE TO CUSTOMIZE THIS. It really helps since I have poor eyesight. It seems silly to lock in something like that outside of addons. Kudos to you guys for making it so accessible.
3. Being able to switch between your weapons mid fight. I love the versatility this offers, being able to weave in weapon attacks and switch on a dime in emergency situations makes for some amazing gameplay potential.
What I think can be fixed...
1. the fluidity of the animations. This was the most jarring thing to me. The animations were cool, but it looked like it was missing some... frames? I don't know how to explain it, it just didn't have a fluid motion in them.
2. A stronger indicator for when the player character is damaged. The blood was just not enough impact to represent damage. I would argue the same for the enemies, we need some stronger feedback when a hit connects.
3. Less particle effects on the basic attack. It just needs to be toned down a bit.
All in all, I'm STOKED about what's to come in the future, you guys really look like you're taking the right steps!
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Interested to see how this impacts weapons such as staves, hammers, axes etc.
Improvement suggestions:
* Micro-stagger / big stagger / knock down scaling with light hits / power attacks / combo attacks.
* Game-Object interaction: sparks on hitting stones, splinters when hitting wood, cut off grass flying through air when swinging a weapon in tall grass.
* The Yellow glow could be downscaled a tad, but I think its cool with a colored attack depending on the class. It made a very Paladin of the Light feel while using the two hand sword. So maybe a large barbarian type swinging an axe would have a more red tint to the strikes.
General perception overall positive and heading in the right direction.
effects are bit to flashy.
enemy/mob impact feedback may not be shown in testing but making a note.
Daggers speed seems ok.
Great sword still a bit to flimsy. could be slower, more windup/down and audibly lower whooshing in pitch.
look forward to more combat reveals.