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Essay on downtime in games

2

Comments

  • PercimesPercimes Member
    Things have changed since the old days of games like EQ, and not only the players' expectations. The game was played in first person using PgUp and PgDown to look up and down; the default movements were done using the arrow keys. I was using all those from the num pad part of the keyboard, which meant I didn't hold the mouse that much. It was all wonky. All communications had to be typed in the chat window, so the downtimes might have made more sense to socialize then. But we have voice com. now. That alone makes it way easier to communicate during combat, which reduce the need for sitting and waiting so the social butterflies can do what they need, it can all be done while actually playing the game.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    Things have changed since the old days of games like EQ, and not only the players' expectations. The game was played in first person using PgUp and PgDown to look up and down; the default movements were done using the arrow keys. I was using all those from the num pad part of the keyboard, which meant I didn't hold the mouse that much. It was all wonky. All communications had to be typed in the chat window, so the downtimes might have made more sense to socialize then. But we have voice com. now. That alone makes it way easier to communicate during combat, which reduce the need for sitting and waiting so the social butterflies can do what they need, it can all be done while actually playing the game.

    EXACTLY THIS. Let me play and actually enjoy the game and actually PLAY it. If people want to sit around a camp fire and talk, you go do that.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    But we have voice com. now. That alone makes it way easier to communicate during combat, which reduce the need for sitting and waiting so the social butterflies can do what they need, it can all be done while actually playing the game.
    And what if I want content to not be so damn easy that we can just freely chat with each other while doing it?
  • UboonUboon Member, Alpha Two
    Bring a Cleric and Bard for no downtime. Go solo DPS or solo Cleric and expect slower levelling.
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  • PercimesPercimes Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    But we have voice com. now. That alone makes it way easier to communicate during combat, which reduce the need for sitting and waiting so the social butterflies can do what they need, it can all be done while actually playing the game.
    And what if I want content to not be so damn easy that we can just freely chat with each other while doing it?

    Chat in town while you wait for that one guy who's not ready. There is always one.
    Chat while you get to your hard content destination.
    If you need more time, pick hard content that is farther away.
    If that's still not enough, set your movement speed or that of your mount to "walk".
    If you want to get silly with this, walk backward.
    Repeat on your way back.
    Linger a bit longer to chat before logging off.
    You can even chat on your guild discord when you're not even playing the game.

    I can keep going with sillier examples, but to what end? You're not really looking for solutions: you've already made your mind and cast your vote.

    We'll probably never agree on this. I want flexibility, adaptability. You want a hard structure that everyone must follow, one way to play the game.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    content can be meaningful or hard and engaging. but sitting around 10 mins then fighting for 2 isn't engaging.

    look, people complained that they spent more time running around in new world than actually doing something meaningful. in fact, players started calling nw a running simulator.

    how is running for 10 minutes and fighting for 1 different than sitting down for 10 minutes and fighting for 1? at least you get to see different things, the scenery, etc and explore when you are running. sitting down is not meaningful or engaging. there is a reason why its called downtime. i really don't know why people are defending it and saying its better than actually playing the game.

    don't get me wrong. soloing should be much more difficult than grouping, and there should be more downtimes when you are soloing, to encourage grouping, either because you lost too much hp or more mana. but spending 1 minute fighting killing 1 monster and then 5 minutes resting is no better than spending 1 minute fighting and 5 minutes running to the next location.

    and for those saying that the game is not for you, etc etc. well, I guess I can say the same. if you guys wanna sit for 5 minutes and fight for 1, then this game might not be for you, since this isn't the direction the game is going, and most old school mmorpg weren't like that (:
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    edited December 2022
    Interesting topic! Quite a lot of different opinions here, which makes things more interesting.

    I appreciate everyone communicating politely, even when disagreeing :)

    When thinking of my own experience with downtime, I think of some moments where sometimes I would launch an MMO and end up just experiencing the atmosphere... while I was totally doing something else. Like shopping for stuff online or spending time on Reddit. Just taking in the sounds and ambiance of a zone or city.

    This isn't exactly what your essay talks about @Lashing but it made me think of it. It's downtime but... It's downtime I chose to do, I suppose. 😅 Anybody else do that?
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  • BlindsideBlindside Member
    edited December 2022
    Downtime is important and fun when implemented properly.

    Grindy MMOs like Black Desert Online are an example of what happens when efficiency is prioritized above all else. They can become tedious and only cater towards a specific type of player.

    Instead, think of downtime as a break from tension. In combat, downtime could be achieved in several ways:
    1. During the use of defensive skills (ie. channeled block)
    2. Mobility that creates a safe distance from you to your opponent
    3. Stealth that renders the player invisible
    4. Crowd control where your opponent is unable to cast skills
    What do all of these have in common? You are safe. Brief safety in combat are those little breaks in tension. When tied to skills, they reward proper execution and feel good to use.

    On the flipside, I dislike mindless downtime. Some examples of mindless downtime are:
    1. Waiting for mana or stamina to regenerate so you can cast abilities.
    2. Waiting at a camp to regenerate health.
    3. Waiting for crafting to complete if you are unable to leave the station.
    4. Waiting to summon a mount or channeling before you can teleport to different areas of the map.
    If taking your hands off the keyboard to wait before you can play again is necessary, that's bad design. Players can take breaks if they need by moving to a safe location or logging out. Forced breaks as a requisite for gameplay is mundane.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    I was forced to socialize in L2 through it's requirement to have other people help you. I couldn't solo 90% of the content and the 10% that I could would've taken me weeks and months to progress even a bit. L2 didn't have autopartying (in earlier updates), so I had to go talk to people and make friends. And because I was forced to choose who I talk to (out of several guilds and then out of several parties within the chosen guild), I had a much higher chance to find people who I'd jell with nicely. Which then led to years-long friendships.
    I mean, let's face it... you like a lot of stuff in L2 that I would hate.
    We have significantly different playstyles.
    Don't need to force socializing in order to form decades-long player friendships.
    If you try to force me to do something, I will just choose not to play.
  • HarlowHarlow Member, Alpha Two
    I have no problem with downtime - HOWEVER, it's always the healer. Can we spread the love (or agony if that's your opinion) to other classes as well? I'm tired of feeling guilty because the group or raid is waiting for ME to regain mana. Let other classes take some of the blame for a change.
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  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 2022
    There’s no such thing as downtime in a PvP FFA game. You either have stealth and hide somewhere to go to the bathroom or you’re a sitting duck every time you walk away from your PC.

    I get that’s not the point of the thread, but I think not considering PvP is missing a huge part of game mechanics you can’t ignore.
  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    Gui10 wrote: »
    What I hope for is the option for "productive downtime".

    Example: crafting. I want to be able to stack 10k logs and spend a whole day crafting them and only having to be infront of my screen once everytime I need to replenish my backpack with materials.

    In that way, I can be both productive in-game and productive IRL, doing dishes, cleaning, cooking, training, etc.

    Players who want to stay active in-game could also enjoy this mechanic if, lets say, you could setup a stone cutting machine in your freehold, and have it running while you go out in the wilderness to quest or hunt things. Doubly productive =)

    Edit: the continuous "power" could be provided by a mule or cow going round in circles, with a gear system. Like what happens in certain areas of the world.

    This, or at least something like this. Perhaps not the double dipping aspect as much, so as to balance the value.

    Systems like this in the game would be great for people who want to be a little more social and not fall crazy behind people who are grindy AF. All you need is a decent mix of activities that characters can do which create value and force downtime then we can RP a bit and not feel rushed all the time. Just stay true to the risk vs reward aspect, as well as allowing it to be something the character can choose WHEN to participate in.

    Crafting type activities are good for this because you can plan on something like 10 minutes to craft 40 bolts, then chat with your mates, grab a drink, bathroom break, etc.

    The health/mana regen downtimes can be good for goofing around with groups but it really depends on how often and how long. This sort of thing should be in the player's hands to build around so that if they want to go hard with no breaks they have that option.

    Mob/farm respawn can be another factor in this and also relate to other systems.

    Event/activity downtime could be like a 3 minute timer before the caravan takes off, or 1 minute timer before arena match, etc...

    I know there aren't travel things in this game, but whenever I would take a flight path in WOW it was a good time to chat with guild/team and take a 5-10 min break. It would be even better if we had more control over when that break was, rather than forcing us take that break in order to go from A to B.

    Not sure what would be suitable for Ashes. Or if any of this is suitable for open world content where a 5 minute AFK break might get you murdered. Maybe in this context you set up a camp for 5 minutes where you are immune from PVP until you leave the campfire, getting a buff for more time spent at the camp.

    At any rate, the game designers should think in terms of availability for breaks in different content. With most of it being optional/still useful. Might still be a good idea to throw in a (non immersion breaking) forced 10minute break here and there to help the gold farmers negotiate break times with their slave master overlords.


  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    I am not a fan of the sitting around waiting for mana/health to regen. Huge turn-off for me. I won't always have the time to play for hours and hours. Sometimes I may only be able to play for 1-2h depending on daily workload and deadlines. I'd rather not use some of that time to sit around rolling my thumbs.
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  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    I am not a fan of the sitting around waiting for mana/health to regen. Huge turn-off for me. I won't always have the time to play for hours and hours. Sometimes I may only be able to play for 1-2h depending on daily workload and deadlines. I'd rather not use some of that time to sit around rolling my thumbs.

    Yeah, if they do consciously implement useful downtime then it should be something player activated on purpose. Like the idea of a campfire in the open world that gives a buff when u chill for up to 5 minutes. Something like +20% exp rate for 15 minutes after the campfire would give you 360% exp for 20 minutes vs 400% exp for 20 minutes of straight grinding.

    Maybe it takes 1 minute from starting the campfire before you become pvp immune, and the exp buff ramps from 0-20% up to 5 minutes and last up to 20 minutes before breaking and the player loses pvp immunity.

    The idea being that the player decision to take a break can still have some strategy and benefit while not being overpowered. Of course this would have to be balanced with monster spawn, pvp intent and things like that so its not completely gamed.

    I mean maybe they already have ideas like this that make way more sense with the world they are creating. But this is just to illustrate the goal of the downtime idea.
  • SjeldenSjelden Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    This is not EQ or back in the day.

    If you believe Ashes of Creation will cater to the kind of players that crave instant gratification, you have not been paying attention. Steven has specifically said they are going back to the roots of the old MMO's with this game, pretty much with the same breath as saying this game is not for everyone.

    I hope you find what you are looking for in this game, but if instant action-rpg style gameplay with auto-grouping is what you are looking for, I am worried you will be hugely disappointed.
  • PherPhurPherPhur Member
    edited July 2023
    Percimes wrote: »
    I should have proof read better before posting... Let me rephrase a bit.

    If you require the game's mechanics to force you to stop to socialize, do you really like socializing?

    Forced downtimes are not necessary to socialize. We can always take or make the time to do so.

    Considering the awkward parasocial conversations like this, maybe having some downtime from the game wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Could probably throw in some downtime from the internet while they're at it :D

    And I'm not even sure this has to do with liking socializing or not. I think it has to do with pacing. I think Steven will have nice pacing for AoC, something.. graceful.
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  • PherPhurPherPhur Member
    edited July 2023
    Vaknar wrote: »
    When thinking of my own experience with downtime, I think of some moments where sometimes I would launch an MMO and end up just experiencing the atmosphere... while I was totally doing something else. Like shopping for stuff online or spending time on Reddit. Just taking in the sounds and ambiance of a zone or city.

    This isn't exactly what your essay talks about @Lashing but it made me think of it. It's downtime but... It's downtime I chose to do, I suppose. 😅 Anybody else do that?


    Back when WoW first came out I would do this, the score for that game was so absolutely incredible. The whole visual art +sound in that game took me to another world, and I'm sure my interest in it really helped too.

    Haven't had another game do it to quite that magnitude again until just this year with Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom.
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  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    I am glad this thread was bumped. Was a great post! <3
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Sjelden wrote: »
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    This is not EQ or back in the day.

    If you believe Ashes of Creation will cater to the kind of players that crave instant gratification, you have not been paying attention. Steven has specifically said they are going back to the roots of the old MMO's with this game, pretty much with the same breath as saying this game is not for everyone.

    I hope you find what you are looking for in this game, but if instant action-rpg style gameplay with auto-grouping is what you are looking for, I am worried you will be hugely disappointed.

    That is flawed thinking. As of yesterday I came back from Denver after FB/Meta flew me out there for two days for a leadership coaching within performance marketing. Two things Meta always stress about is "RELEVANCY" and "YOU CANNOT CHANGE DATA"

    Going back to the old MMO days is not making yourself relevant. IF instant gratification is what is performing and making new customers buy the game, you can't go against that data. Then you have a failed business and you are just relying on the older generation who loves the "old mmo days". To have a business succeed you need to ride the wave and build on that wave. Not go against it. Marketing doesn't work that way. Every business rely on marketing to convert new customers.
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  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    Sjelden wrote: »
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    This is not EQ or back in the day.

    If you believe Ashes of Creation will cater to the kind of players that crave instant gratification, you have not been paying attention. Steven has specifically said they are going back to the roots of the old MMO's with this game, pretty much with the same breath as saying this game is not for everyone.

    I hope you find what you are looking for in this game, but if instant action-rpg style gameplay with auto-grouping is what you are looking for, I am worried you will be hugely disappointed.

    That is flawed thinking. As of yesterday I came back from Denver after FB/Meta flew me out there for two days for a leadership coaching within performance marketing. Two things Meta always stress about is "RELEVANCY" and "YOU CANNOT CHANGE DATA"

    Going back to the old MMO days is not making yourself relevant. IF instant gratification is what is performing and making new customers buy the game, you can't go against that data. Then you have a failed business and you are just relying on the older generation who loves the "old mmo days". To have a business succeed you need to ride the wave and build on that wave. Not go against it. Marketing doesn't work that way. Every business rely on marketing to convert new customers.

    i agree with you. gotta ride the wave...but remember, there are many waves, and each wave is different. aoc might not be as successful as wow or ff, only time will tell, but that doesnt mean it will die or it will fail.

    there is a desire for this type of game, and that desire (or wave) has been going on for quite a while now.

    also, wow and ff can be considered old school too so...
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    That is flawed thinking. As of yesterday I came back from Denver after FB/Meta flew me out there for two days for a leadership coaching within performance marketing. Two things Meta always stress about is "RELEVANCY" and "YOU CANNOT CHANGE DATA"

    Going back to the old MMO days is not making yourself relevant. IF instant gratification is what is performing and making new customers buy the game, you can't go against that data. Then you have a failed business and you are just relying on the older generation who loves the "old mmo days". To have a business succeed you need to ride the wave and build on that wave. Not go against it. Marketing doesn't work that way. Every business rely on marketing to convert new customers.
    How that Meta verse working out for Zuck? Caught a nice wave? :) Not everything is purely about numbers and profits. If Steven just wanted money he would've stayed in the business that made him the very millions that he put into Ashes.
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    That is flawed thinking. As of yesterday I came back from Denver after FB/Meta flew me out there for two days for a leadership coaching within performance marketing. Two things Meta always stress about is "RELEVANCY" and "YOU CANNOT CHANGE DATA"

    Going back to the old MMO days is not making yourself relevant. IF instant gratification is what is performing and making new customers buy the game, you can't go against that data. Then you have a failed business and you are just relying on the older generation who loves the "old mmo days". To have a business succeed you need to ride the wave and build on that wave. Not go against it. Marketing doesn't work that way. Every business rely on marketing to convert new customers.
    How that Meta verse working out for Zuck? Caught a nice wave? :) Not everything is purely about numbers and profits. If Steven just wanted money he would've stayed in the business that made him the very millions that he put into Ashes.

    lol k...
    m6jque7ofxxf.gif
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »
    That is flawed thinking. As of yesterday I came back from Denver after FB/Meta flew me out there for two days for a leadership coaching within performance marketing. Two things Meta always stress about is "RELEVANCY" and "YOU CANNOT CHANGE DATA"

    Going back to the old MMO days is not making yourself relevant. IF instant gratification is what is performing and making new customers buy the game, you can't go against that data. Then you have a failed business and you are just relying on the older generation who loves the "old mmo days". To have a business succeed you need to ride the wave and build on that wave. Not go against it. Marketing doesn't work that way. Every business rely on marketing to convert new customers.
    How that Meta verse working out for Zuck? Caught a nice wave? :) Not everything is purely about numbers and profits. If Steven just wanted money he would've stayed in the business that made him the very millions that he put into Ashes.

    the dark sorcerer is right tho. you cant go against the wave If you wanna sell...however, there is a mass desire for old school mmorpg, open world PVP, less instances, etc. i don't think ashes will fail ;3
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    the dark sorcerer is right tho. you cant go against the wave If you wanna sell...however, there is a mass desire for old school mmorpg, open world PVP, less instances, etc. i don't think ashes will fail ;3
    You've fallen for the oldest trick in the book! Necroposting!
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    the dark sorcerer is right tho. you cant go against the wave If you wanna sell...however, there is a mass desire for old school mmorpg, open world PVP, less instances, etc. i don't think ashes will fail ;3
    You've fallen for the oldest trick in the book! Necroposting!

    no no gahaka did! ok I just saw this thread on page 1 and replied. i didn't realize tds reply was from last year until now T_T

    side note: "You have posted 2 times within 60 seconds. A spam block is now in effect on your account. You must wait at least 120 seconds before attempting to post again." omgg vaknar plz.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    no no gahaka did! ok I just saw this thread on page 1 and replied. i didn't realize tds reply was from last year until now T_T
    Well yes, he did and you then fell for the necro :)
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    >:
  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2
    Depraved wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    the dark sorcerer is right tho. you cant go against the wave If you wanna sell...however, there is a mass desire for old school mmorpg, open world PVP, less instances, etc. i don't think ashes will fail ;3
    You've fallen for the oldest trick in the book! Necroposting!

    no no gahaka did! ok I just saw this thread on page 1 and replied. i didn't realize tds reply was from last year until now T_T

    side note: "You have posted 2 times within 60 seconds. A spam block is now in effect on your account. You must wait at least 120 seconds before attempting to post again." omgg vaknar plz.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    no no gahaka did! ok I just saw this thread on page 1 and replied. i didn't realize tds reply was from last year until now T_T
    Well yes, he did and you then fell for the necro :)

    Not only that, but he inserted some weird ass "essay writing website" in the middle of my quoted comment lol

    Looks like a bot or something imo.
  • Tahiti02Tahiti02 Member, Alpha Two
    Downtime is needed! Modern MMORPG's and games in general just want you to always be doing something, its too much. With downtime it gives breathing room to players and allows more social interaction to happen, planning, talking, organizing, etc.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 3
    Id like to see downtime in the game, but have ways to alleviate some of it based on the activity. For example, if you're grinding mage mobs have them drop an item like a mana pot or a unique food that increases the amount of mana gained per tick while sitting by 3-5%. It adds an element of efficiency, but doesn't negate the entire concept.
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