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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
[Feedback Request] Day & Night Cycle w/ Constellations Shown in November Livestream
Hello glorious community,
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Day & Night cycle w/ constellations shown during the November 2022 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, December 16 2022, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Day & Night cycle w/ constellations shown during the November 2022 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
- How do you feel about the day & night cycle?
- What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
- Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, December 16 2022, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
2
Comments
I love the stars and constelations but i think that moons looks kinda flat for some reason. It does look like part a painting hanging above player head.
The interaction with the rain was kind of absent, it looked like the rain just stopped when Steven looked up during the rain.
The darkness seemed fine to me. As mentioned, it's not clear if seeing the constellation is just visual but if so, it would good to have some active interaction where you 'salute' the constellations or something to get their benefit(?).
There isn't much more to say if you don't expand on 'constellations will have a wide range of impact on a variety of game systems' or some description on how they work. A goal for the system maybe?
While most classes can function from the moment they are attacked, Bards need time to buff (and choose buffs correctly based on the opponent) in order to function effectively at all. Darkness that obscures the identity of approaching opponents is a meaningful class-specific nerf that would have been a major red flag for me.
From that perspective, more powerful darkness isn't a problem, but it has to be limited to areas that are clearly intended as group-only content. If most other classes can hang out in an area on their own (even if not grinding there), a Bard should be able to as well. Anything less quickly becomes an economic nerf, if nothing else.
That said, while I am grateful for your stated intent, I am still slightly concerned that darker outfits (like the nearly black one shown on stream today) will be problematic (and therefore meta) if nameplates don't make up the difference at any range where you could reasonably notice and identify a white-armored player.
Overall, however, the type of night that you've shown on stream today is exactly what I'd have hoped for. It gives a very clear and immersive feeling of night without seeming to harm gameplay. (And it looks fabulous.) Good job.
I enjoyed the presentation for day/night cycles!
How do you feel about the day & night cycle? I liked it a lot, specifically the night shadows through the trees were awesome.
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you? Personally I really loved the constellations. I would love the need to use them in navigation, land and sea. In my opinion I would like to see, pun intended, lighting make a difference during the night cycle. Currently it seemed like any lamps/lighting were superfluous. I would like for there to have some ambient lighting for outdoors with lighting helping but required for dungeon type areas.
- it looks great, better than anything pre-UE5 so basically unparalleled
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
- just like the different seasons it should have meaning/impact on the enviornment. Like different kinds of mobs should spawn at night, alterations to what certain buffs grand you, light magic being stronger at night etc
Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- At this point no game has a dynamic world quite like yours. It makes me feel like time is actually moving forward instead of every day in the game is the same. Making contalations move overhead in sinc with the seasons will greatly add to this. Like the constellation san-dal on the equanox during summertime and constalation mit-tens during winter)
I really just want to roleplay as a monster during the night.
A: Having one is awesome, the time frame for how long days and nights last also sound good, and the ambient noises are excellent. The only improvement I'd suggest is making the lighting of the night feel more shadowy and inconsistent, rather than a constant high glow. I agree that it shouldn't inhibit gameplay like in other games where torches are required, but the night needs to feel dark and scary and the home of vampires and werewolves and walking nightmares.
Q: What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
A: The night should feel significantly different from the day, so that when I log in I learn to consciously note whether it's day or night and how that will impact what I planned to accomplish in that session. This can range from mob spawn timers to visibility of resources to racial buffs/debuffs to whatever else you might think of. Aside from hard mechanics, I also want it to be a strong roleplaying opportunity, where the lighting feels appropriate for a secret guild cabal of necromantic cultists or an order of aspiring vampire knights. If a group of friends are planning on meeting up in game during the night cycle simply because it will set the tone for their planned activities far better than hanging out during the day, then you've done the cycle well.
As for constellations, I would prefer not having too many in the sky at once so that they'll feel unique, to have their locations be easily identifiable for an experienced player, and for in-game events to connect to the constellations so they feel meaningful in a wider-world-than-just-the-player kind of way.
Q: Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways? Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
A: Can't think of any for the first portion, I've already mentioned everything in regards to the second portion.
Thanks for all your work guys!
In regards to the constellations and their impact on game systems. The only concern I have is will it respect players time? There is a decent gamer population with very limited time to play which includes myself. I would prefer not to have to campout for hours or have very limited ingame time windows to achieve gear/story progression. I would just really evaluate how long a day/night cycle takes to compelete IRL. Anything longer than 2hrs is too long in my opinion.
TDLR: I'm all for a good grind and treasure hunt but don't ask me to sit in the woods for hours trying to find the right stars. Make it reasonable.
There could be very dark zones but there would have to be a reason, like there is a magical veil, or you are literally under something blocking the light.
Regarding constellations, it seems very odd that they would only be visible from certain locations, though perhaps that was specific to this showcase and not an intended mechanic. Barring visual obstructions like clouds and intervening terrain (mountains), I would think they should be visible from everywhere. However, seasons could affect this just like in real life, making some constellations only visible at certain times of year due to the skybox shifting. The glowing outlines that appeared are interesting to me, but might be obtrusive to see accidentally. Perhaps only have those outlines appear while sitting/resting and looking upward? This could also be used as an interesting way to obtain minor buffs - by resting and pondering or praying to different constellations.
My only real concern so far is that the ambient light level during the night seemed very, very high. As in, I believe it was far too bright. I understand that in an MMO you need to be able to see what is going on around you even at night, but there is a happy medium which could be struck here. At one point in the showcase, the sky was visible next to the lamp post Steven highlighted as an old asset, and the sky was almost as bright as the lamp itself! I found this quite jarring. No, pitch darkness one might encounter in a survival game is not necessary, but some degree of reduced visibility is okay and even desirable in my opinion. Let light sources like lamps an torches shine by reducing the overall ambient light level - this will also help us appreciate the gorgeous night sky being worked on. In short, don't make it as dark as a survival game, but certainly make it darker than it is now.
I will link a video of how it looks.
The show of the potion starts at 1:29 until the end.
As for how dark the world should be. I think what youve done so far is great, and I personally disagree with making the world darker than what you showed. Outside of specific situations in which the darkness is a gameplay feature, playing in dark areas isn't enjoyable, especially in a team that requires the use of synergies. All you would end up causing is for players to increase their brightness in order to counter it. So if the darkness isn't adding fun to the experience, it isn't necessary.
A: I love it! I think it will work really well with the dynamic weather/seasons system. Hopefully the winter will have longer, darker nights and the summer will have the opposite. I would really love for the nights to be a lot darker though, I think it has the potential to add a lot to gameplay; For example, Vekk could see in the dark a lot better which would have its own gameplay effects, crafting torches would be essential and sources of light would be very valuable - it would also encourage teamwork if a few people have to carry a torch in their off-hand for the rest of their team to see well enough to play.
Q: What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
A: The constellations look really good! I hope there will be a lot of different ones since I'm sure Steven said they would be used for gameplay purposes too (finding certain relics, I think). My only worry is that I hope that the constellations are not part of some basic mini-game that would eventually become very easy to figure out every time. I would love for a great detail like that to have some much needed depth to it!
Q: Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
A: No examples I can think of that would be relevant to this MMORGP title. However, I hope that the day/night cycle affects gameplay, especially when it comes to engaging and starting a fight with other players, and not just the combat itself.
"Do I really want to travel at night? Will it be worth the risk?"
"We could attack this caravan during the day, but we may have a much better chance with greater initiative at night."
That kind of thing.
Q: Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
A: Personally, I would like for the constellations to be a little harder to find. Maybe a skill or some kind of perk could be unlocked to make it easier to find them - this could further encourage teamwork.
I also really dislike how bright the night is. If I'm honest, I struggle to see the point in a day/night cycle when you can always just see clearly anyways.
Thanks again IntrepidStudios for another amazing AoC stream!
The night sky did look really nice, as did the moons, but perhaps don't have them quite as close. At least one of the two non-broken ones should perhaps be smaller/further away.
The constellation system sound interesting. Steven mentioned they affect the narrative, they affect aquiring certain relics for the node, and they can empower certain abilities and items for the player. I am a little unsure what the mechanics of that will be. Are they only visible from certain locations, and then they have to be identified by looking at the sky to get a buff? I need a ton more info to really give feedback, but it definitely sounds new and interesting to me.
How do you feel about the day & night cycle?
- i like it a lot, but the star signs look a little bit too sharp and i would prefer it a little bit less dominant so it looks like its actually part of the stars and not a copy paste pic 10 metres above me xd
- regarding the darkness lvl, i think its way too bright. even the cape and white cloth kinda reflects light as if itsis directly illuminated by the sun even though there is no sun... it looks kinda cheap because of it, also because the light doesnt seem to come from a certain direction so it overall looks more unrealistic.
- yes i understand the gameplay aspect but if you are scared of fighting in the night against other players, then avoid it or do some safe quests/farming. for me and i think many others it is very important for the immersive aspect and i think new world did a decent job. It also gives lanterns and other light sources more meaning and better looks over all. imo the graphics in general where pretty underwhelming in this stream, but ofc i know that its all work in progress.
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
- realistic ratios (day/night duration) and smooth transitions between day and night.
Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?'
- regarding the darkness lvl -> new world as i already mentioned. nw also did a great job on the moonbeams coming through holes in rocks or between trees in the forest and reflecting in the water.
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Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
- the haze was totally too much. also the directions it went were not realistic and it was set on every terrain.
it was too thick, too "high", too much in regards of the area (it literally covered the entire area) and the floating direction was not realistic also it came out of rocks and ended up in rocks...
- the mob combat looked kinda boring and cheap (writing this of course i keep in mind this is all work in progress but i dont know what will be improved and what wont be) and the attacks were repetetive so there is no meaningful combat for the player (what animation of the wolves indicates what kind of different attack with what kind of dmg output/stun/knockback etc.)
i know the bosses get more attention regarding combat animations and different attacks, but imo you do the community a big favor if you implement many attack mechanics also to low tier mobs because then the game will barely feel repetetive and wont get boring any soon.
Combat gets more meaningful and players actually have to use their brain in regards of when to use what spell/attack and when not or when to dodge and when not.
One of the devs playing that long sword was a perfect example of braindead button smashing that any mmo has and what gets boring very quickly.
i think you are wrong. the map design just should be balancing the darkness of nights by providing enough lanterns or giving weapons / armor torches or other light sources. reflection would be more realistic and the game overall would look a lot better.
I think nw did a great job in that case.
Steven - you cringed at Narc about his underwear - that is how we feel about the sandal forced meme. once n twice was ok but enough is enough.
Positive, adds depth and I like it in all games I play.
Visuals are great, no notes. My feedback is change NOTHING. 'tis excellent.
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
Ensuring that the times rotate so that even if I login at the same time every day, I don't experience the same time of day in game as a result. My sweet spot is either 2.5 hours (split into approximately 5 periods) or 5 hours (split the same) because this causes the optimal rotation for my personal enjoyment. If the game has a lot of night/day reliant LONG content, the latter, otherwise the former.
Roleplay and quest targets just feel better when you are able to think about 'sun will set soon/rise soon' or 'being out all night'. The difference in immersion levels is pretty drastic for me.
Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
FFXI's are okay but too short. The immersion feeling is good there because once you're in a dungeon you don't notice it, and the travel speed and world size mean that in the overworld, you 'feel the passage of time correctly'. (Theirs is 30m day and 30m night). For Ashes travel and worldsize, I feel it would not work at this pace. The effects on Mob strength, types, spawns, and 'aggro methods' are all good and assist immersion there. The Skybox doesn't rotate though, and the moon is always in the same position at the same time every night (so at midnight it is overhead always) despite changing phase. Awkward.
BDO's is fine but too long. There's no immersion because it feels like the time just 'stays that way' for a while when you're doing something unless it's very close to sunset or sunrise. The in-world changes are minimalistic, but the lighting effects are nice.
I won't go into things like Onigiri or Neverwinter because those are limited to game positions/instances more often. Fairyland's was good but that game is not really well known nor still up, it was mostly cosmetic but it was nicely timed.
Non-MMOs: Monster Hunter World's is 'too long', it moreso feels like 'this is just the time you happen to hunt'. which has good immersive effects for your longer term 'feeling of grounding in the world' but does not actually feel like a Day/Night CYCLE, though it does have effects on the world and lighting which matter to gameplay in small ways, which is nice. It works for what the game is, it's just not trying to be the same KIND of day/night cycle.
I'll leave it to another team member to talk about the Elden Ring one.
The Division - Absolutely perfect. The lighting changes work more easily because it's in a modern urban city, but it definitely changes the entire feeling of areas even without much changes to encounters or gameplay, and it changes often enough that you can and do make plans around it. This is my 'gold standard' for this experience, it's so seamlessly integrated that I don't think about it, it just directly adds to the immersive feelings.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
Hoping for constellations to have some minor 'buff' effects on players with certain religious perspectives, especially if they are also 'seasonal'. ('minor' stuff like Mana Regen, Max Mana, fishing skill 'patience', etc). A slower day/night cycle also helps in the ability to use them for navigation without any specific buffs required.
The sky looks great, and the constellations give players a good reason to just randomly 'look up sometimes' depending on how they are balanced assuming they have any effects. I don't want to see many 'astrology' quests or simplistic 'look up and find this thing to increase your knowledge' outside of social organizations of the type, since overall this is a relatively static thing, but that's moreso personal, if they're out of my way it won't bother me. I like being able to complete that style of quest 'randomly on a whim' if it exists, rather than it being part of a questline of any kind.
Overall this is a subtle effect that I don't exactly 'notice' is wrong or missing, but there's a huge boost to the comfort/nostalgia level, the 'draw' to just 'randomly play a game' when my mind has memories connected to day/night, so I hope to see it used to its full potential in Ashes.
As for my things I would change or address:
I'd prefer to have to hover over the constellations for a bit before they show themselves. That way finding constellations is more about discovery than happening across them. Also once they flare like they do it would be nice to have a faint outline of the lines or an option to have them on, to show that you've already discovered that particular one, as well as signal to the player that that particular constellation is out, without having to look really hard. As even Steven seemed to be having a rather difficult time of find it without it flaring.
That leads me to my two points where I think need the most improvements from what I saw. I understand wanting the players to be able to see but the night, in terms of lighting, as it is now is pretty bad and needs to be made far darker. The way night currently looks, has the world looking like daytime just with a blue or occluded sun. Personally I'd like to have to it dark to the point of having to use a light spell to help illuminate, or at the very least have a few yards around the player be lighter with objects at a distance being cast into darker shadows.
The second point relates to the first, but the stars in the night sky, when not flaring, were very hard to see. I think making night a bit darker will help with the contrast of the stars in the sky, but I think I'd also like to see them be toned up just a little bit for visibility.
Finally just a few minor things I noticed:
The fog either seems to be a bit thick in places or doesn't look natural when it runs across some geometry. Not sure if this is just me or not. I noticed this especially when at a lower elevation than the fog.
Some of the art assets for the skybox, while lovely, didn't look to fit the night sky all that well and seemed more dropped in. The broken moon specifically stood out in my mind as to not entirely fitting. Not sure if this is cause of the way it's broken or what but something I thought I'd mention.
Again overall I'm super happy with what was shown off today and look forward to the continued development of the game.
Overall really liked how they looked and interacted in their WIP state. I would like to see some special lunar cycles that could impact the world/creatures EG - Blood Moon buffing undead / Blue Moon buffing Nature / Full moon buffing ocean/water life.
What was shown for darkness was great given the many moons, however a variation of luminosity would be cool, especially with lunar cycles. EG - full moon = what was shown, but maybe a the start/end of a wanning/waxing cycle be 15% less as there is less reflected light from the moon, nothing too major, but enough to tell 'its darker' but still far away from darkness blinded.
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
I like what was shown, and feel like I would like to see the next pass. I would like to see some specific things strategically located as for almost a 'compass' like implementation of the constellations. EG - the dwarf one being above their city / North Star / and maybe a rotation of constellations that give buffs based on gods / race depending on the constellation present, nothing major, but small to be unique, but sized to be noticed eg - 3% stamina / faster regen etc
Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Right now my brain is gravitating to survival games, so that is kinda N/A here. Most of my experience has been 'zone locked' for the 'cycle' and it was boring, excited to see an open world cycle.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
Without knowing the depth they wish to go with it, there are no present concerns. All things cosmetic are great, and if they change, even just the environmental feel, it adds flavor to a normal grind spot.
What I'm looking foward to see is some hidden doors in ruins or mountains that are visible only in night time when the moon is shining bright just like in LOTR. Also another cool thing to see would be maps that could only be readable in the moonlight just like in the Hobbit book and movie.
WoW's day and night cycle was good but Valheim's was much more exciting because the night was very dark and you needed a torch when travelling deep in forests because the moonlight was blocked by huge trees so you couldn't see well and enemies could attack in anytime from darkness.
I'd have to say that night should be a little bit darker, and play with the assets that generate light to try to produce more natural and dynamic lighting. For example, in the recent video, the lampposts in the graveyard almost felt unnecessary and didn't seem to add much atmosphere because the night sky was quite lit. Now try to imagine if it's a bit darker, not by much, but enough that it feels a bit more ominous and the local light sources start to have more function, that the light off the lampposts feel a little more like guiding lights and can be seen reflecting off the rolling mist without lighting up the area like a bonfire. I do strongly agree with Steven that we don't need to make this a survival horror level of dark, and we should still be able to notice players from a reasonable distance, but if the night sky is too bright then it will take away from much of the beauty and atmosphere that one could find in a city skyline at night or a haunted setting. For another consideration, think of glowing bioluminescent plants, and how striking their glow could be when contrasted to a darker night sky or ocean depths. Admittedly it's a finicky thing and you likely won't please everyone, but I personally feel a slightly darker night and some focus on practical lighting (that is, lighting used on set of film such as a desk light or fireplace and not off the set like a floodlight) could really make the game shine in a way, so long as it's not so dark that we can't see the details.
I absolutely loved the direction! I was worried you would lean more to ""immersion"" like many people here are asking instead of gameplay and made the nights dark
this would only make everyone competitive need to change the monitor settings at night and play an ugly grayed out game at night... and give a disadvantage for the players that refuse to do it
nights should Not have bad visibility in an MMORPG and I'm glad you went that route!
now, I do think you could tweak the luminosity just a little bit to make it a bit dark and would still not impact gameplay! I feel like it might be a Little bit too bright BUT I'd rather test it first the way it is! don't change it yet, it might just be the lack of clouds and weather! Let us TEST first 😉
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
it's important for me that this doesn't end up being scope creep... I say do the basics, make the core viable product playable and then work in this kind of stuff, I don't care about new stuff, what we already heard about AoC is enough and it's already a Massive game
Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Horizon Forbidden West does a great job! if you what Bad examples of what NOT to do, look at Rust, Ark Survival, Mortal 2, all those games just make people play with gaming monitor settings for night time
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
I'm concerned with scope creep... i don't think we need this constellations thing, especially since apparently there are still major things to do in regards to systems/art/gameplay/vfx I hope you focus on the core things first and get us a playable alpha build before moving on to extra stuff
Wednesday's at PM Cst
https://www.youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn/featured
A: It's gorgeous, the amount of light at night is ok. I absolutely loved the Skinwalkers glowing eyes at night, will look cool when they are in very dark places... maybe all animals and races that have nightvision should have glowing eyes at night!!!
It is dark at distance and not super dark around the player so the player can play, which is good... could be a bit darker...
There are a lot of spell effects going on do not worry so much about darkness, AoC has very flashy effects anyway
- spells
- skills
- bright eyes
let the them be the beacons at night, don't be affraid of making a little darker... if you make it a little darker then the spells and its effects will be even more beautiful and significant in the nightQ: What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
A: My dream about that is having a correlation with:
Q: Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
A: It's Witcher 3, it's just the most appeasing transition from day to the night by having the right amount of darkness versus shadows versus light. Right now AoC has some work in balancing those
Q: Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?
A: I just don't like that world objects shadows are completely black at night (maybe because it's alpha), at nigh shadows should be softer just like the character's shadows, it would feel better and makes more sense "shadow-wise".
Right now at night we have spots that go from nearly pitch black to bright, Witcher 3 is the best example in how to balance darkness x brightness x shadows
I believe the sky itself could be darker at night, because right now it looks like it's 5 AM in the game and it was around 7:30 PM
Storming a graveyard at night should be 100% harder
Great job overall!