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Consequences of socially objectionable behavior

NuubNuub Member, Alpha Two
In the recent live stream the question was asked "Will we be able to kick a player from a group just before downing the boss to prevent them from getting loot?" and we were told yes, but the offender would risk reputational damage.

If the risk in being a ninja looter, or guild bank thief, or doing anything socially objectionable, is damage to a player's reputation on the server, then players should NEVER have access to name change, or server transfer as those allow a player to avoid the consequences of their socially objectionable actions, while likely maintaining their ill gotten gains.
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Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Yes
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    IS said there wont be server transfers.

    regarding name changes, you can still have them, as long as the player has a unique identifier associated with his character or account. you can still identify the thief by the unique account/character id.
  • NuubNuub Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    as long as the player has a unique identifier associated with his character or account.

    That's a great point, each account should have a unique identifier, that prevents someone from using alt or name change to obscure their identity.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    10'000 players is a lot. I'd love to have a feature in the journal that allows me to "make notes" on players. You click them in the world and much like an "add to friends list" you could "add to reputation list". There you have one set slider "general reputation" and a bunch of sliders where you can add whatever you want (like crafting, dungeons, friendliness) and a small window to make a text note about the player. These could be stored as files in the journal.

    If Intrepid is not surveilling/punishing such behavior it means player will find some solution to the problem, e.g. external files on players, on player made websites or simply refusing to cooperate with anyone they do not know. They could at least help us keep track of those who act antisocial; though I suspect that leaving this to players alone means we will eventually see mass slander occur independent of whether the accusations are true or not.

    (Edit: Spelling)
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Name changes won’t be a thing.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited June 2023
    Kilion wrote: »
    10'000 players is a lot. I'd love to have a feature in the journal that allows me to "make notes" on players. You click them in the real world and much like an "add to friends list" you could "add to reputation list". There you have one set slider "general reputation" and a bunch of sliders where you can add whatever you want (like crafting, dungeons, friendliness) and a small window to make a text note about the player. These could be stored as files in the journal.

    Yeah, just one contact list where all friends & other unilaterally added contacts go and can get filtered into a few categories. No need for multiple social menus. I really liked the layout in my main MMO where party screen, contact list, and clan information were just a single window with 3 tabs. (Perhaps make it possible to drag them apart if you want to reference your contact list while doing something in your clan window. Major clan administration would be taken with NPC menus anyways, so you don't need an infinite amount of buttons in the personal menu.) So much more compact than the bloated systems in most games. Especially since they all copy the party list in the hud overlay anyway.

    Regarding people you can't trust, I'm not worried. Most players know to build trust gradually. If you spend 30 minutes on a dungeon with random players and you lose a low chance on a rare piece of gear because they kick you, that's not particularly surprising, and a cheap price for a lesson about a person. If you spend 2 hours with them and then they kick you (and assuming you made your conditions for joining the party clear from the start) you should probably find a more reliable source of teammates in the first place, rather than just wanting to check them in a community database.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Laetitian wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    10'000 players is a lot. I'd love to have a feature in the journal that allows me to "make notes" on players. You click them in the real world and much like an "add to friends list" you could "add to reputation list". There you have one set slider "general reputation" and a bunch of sliders where you can add whatever you want (like crafting, dungeons, friendliness) and a small window to make a text note about the player. These could be stored as files in the journal.

    Yeah, just one contact list where all friends & other unilaterally added contacts go and can filtered into a few categories. No need for multiple social menus. I really liked the layout in my main MMO where party screen, contact list, and clan information were just a single window with 3 tabs. (Perhaps make it possible to drag them apart if you want to reference your contact list while doing something in your clan window. Major clan administration would be taken with NPC menus anyways, so you don't nerd an infinite amount of buttons in the personal menu.) So much more compact than the bloated systems in most games. Especially since they all copy the party list in the hud overlay anyway.

    This kind of thing is something I wish modern games did more. There have been huge advances in productivity apps that are used on a daily basis, and yet most online games use very outdated systems for keeping track of contacts and other such matters. A fully functional modern contact list and journal built into the game would make a huge difference for people (like myself) who like to keep things organised.
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  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Make those lists sharable, too. Share with individuals, share with groups (such as your guild or other node citizens).
  • JhorenJhoren Member
    Yes to OP and to the add a note and organizational suggestions.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    no name changes.
    img]
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  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited June 2023
    tautau wrote: »
    Make those lists sharable, too. Share with individuals, share with groups (such as your guild or other node citizens).

    The problem with that is that you're then directly on the way to playing Eve instead of a Fantasy MMO. I think there's merit to having to do and look up some things yourself before you make a decision. Share the list? Sure, for viewing access. Don't automate the colour a name gets shown in because your guild leader tagged it that way. Make your guild leader have to talk to people, and make people figure out who to trust and who to steer clear from.

    Call it slippery slope fallacy, but in my experience, automation of communication and information exchanges like this effectively primes a community to automate LookingForGroup tools for itself, and the overland map just turns into a lobby where no one interacts through proximity, no matter how few instances your game has.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • HeljyHeljy Member
    Why not make the reputation diegetic? For example by giving players or nodes, the possibility to create "Books of Grudges" or whatever, in order to easily tell players in a node that this or that player has committed this or that mischief?
  • NuubNuub Member, Alpha Two
    I used an addon in WoW that let me make a note about a player, and then would show the note (up to x char) in the tool tip, and keep a list of noted players to view full comments. I loved it, it was useful in many ways for remembering who people are and I would really appreciate a similar feature in AoC.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    IS said there wont be server transfers.

    regarding name changes, you can still have them, as long as the player has a unique identifier associated with his character or account. you can still identify the thief by the unique account/character id.

    Name changes should be doable only IF a server merge is necessary. Names should be permanent.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Name_reservations

    Character names

    Characters will have a first-name and an optional surname (last name).[10]

    Character names are unique per server.[11]
    Character name changes will be possible during server merges.[11]

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alts

    Guild membership and alts

    A character may only be a member of a single guild.[13]

    Alts on the same account can join different guilds.[13]
    Intrigue, espionage and intelligence gathering is a legitimate aspect of the game.[13]
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    I only really have one problem with this decision of allowing this type of loot ninjas (kick before loot): it'll encourage even more meta-gaming.

    Your reputation will already be important in PvP scenarios, but now, since you can also be a bitch and steal loot from other people, you are encouraging each server to create it's own subreddit/discord with blacklists and things of that nature. Don't get me wrong, I used WC3 Banlist a lot back in the day and it was amazing, people would often ask me to share my banlist with them, however I wish I didn't have to play a game that forces you to have yet another Banlist.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »
    I only really have one problem with this decision of allowing loot ninjas: it'll encourage even more meta-gaming.

    Your reputation will already be important in PvP scenarios, but now, since you can also be a bitch and steal loot from other people, you are encouraging each server to create it's own subreddit/discord with blacklists and things of that nature. Don't get me wrong, I used WC3 Banlist a lot back in the day and it was amazing, people would often ask me to share my banlist with them, however I wish I didn't have to play a game that forces you to have yet another Banlist.
    We should just have a list of shame (node and server wide). And players have a button on their UI (in the targeted player nameplate) that just runs their name against that list. EZ

    In other words, CHINESE SOCIAL CREDIT :D
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Risk vs Reward
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  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    By virtue of the statement.. to have socially objectionable behavior would be to go against the socially acceptable boundaries.

    The community or more likely larger guilds and hopefully nodes likely establish a range of standards not dissimilar to each other but maybe some range and hopefully by means of regular though social interaction, joining / expelling and rejecting involvement with a little pk for good measure!

    Only when there are absolute extremes and outright objectional behavior should the admin step in.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    problem with the list is i could just add people to that list because I don't like them, just to ruin their reputation. #metoo type of shit lol.

    in 20 years of mmorpg, I think I've only been kicked off of a party once so that I couldn't loot. and I've probs only done it 2-3 times to people who had scammed or done bad things to a friend or a guildie. id dare to say 99% of people wont kick or be kicked before looting.

    also, do the bosses with guildies or friends duh xD
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    problem with the list is i could just add people to that list because I don't like them, just to ruin their reputation.

    Especially the first part sounds right to me, seeing how we will interact with overly sensitive teens and cozy solo lobby players. Which is why I would only support a personal journal to keep track of ones own experiences, rather than make these lists sharable. And for the same reason I suggested that you have to directly SEE the person standing in front of you to add them to the reputation files of your journal. Otherwise I fully agree people would just put others on black lists and share those to slander them.

    Depraved wrote: »
    in 20 years of mmorpg, I think I've only been kicked off of a party once so that I couldn't loot. and I've probs only done it 2-3 times to people who had scammed or done bad things to a friend or a guildie. id dare to say 99% of people wont kick or be kicked before looting.

    And even if it were more than that - it seems like a worthwhile effort to adjust the software to check for actual participation in the fight rather than just group association upon opening the loot window.

    I'm no software developer but I imagine the process to be something like this:
    1. Upon entering the fight: Add players in same group to a list.
    2. Check and tick box for participation in the fight based on archetype (since Intrepid already has a screening feature to spot bots it should be possible to extract data from that which confirms participation)
    3. Upon opening the loot window anyone on the open-fight list and who ticked the box for participation will be presented with the options earned through looting rights irrespective of whether they are still in the group or not, whether they are dead or not, irrespective of where they are.

    This would also lock leeches out from getting loot they did not work for to earn.

    Or make it a public vote to kick someone off the group.
    Or make such behavior reportable so that at least the one kicking will receive an ingame punishment - making them corrupt or lowering their reputation with the victims allies.

    There are tons of options what could be done and I think what will ultimately be the line of action for Intrepid so that players can figure out how to deal with it themselves. And I think if that is what is going to happen taking responsibility like that can only be encouraged.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    "Free-for-all.[24]
    Whoever is first to loot gets the loot.[22]
    Lootmaster.[1][24]
    A master looter (or lootmaster) is a player designated by the party leader to decide how loot is distributed in a dungeon or raid party.[24]
    Round-robin.[1][24]
    With round-robin looting, party members take turns looting.[24]
    Need or greed.[1][24]
    This is a traditional need before greed system based on dice rolls.[24]
    Since there is very little gear binding in Ashes of Creation, it's left to the party to deal with players who excessively roll Need on loot.[28]
    "

    In this instance of a player wanting to "ninja-loot" by kicking someone, they're clearly the Party Leader already in order to do the kicking, so they'd just instead have chosen the "Lootmaster" setting, and will just keep whatever they want anyway. There's no real need for kicking someone just for loot purposes.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    At least in A1, it required a vote for the party or raid leader to change the loot rules. I think a simple majority won. But it's not something they could just do on the fly.
  • I'll echoed what @Depraved said, a public list that is permanent and which one has no way to get a fair defence when put on is a recipe for easy exploit and manipulation. That an individual, or a guild, keep a book of grudges is one thing, that they try to spread the word about it is step further, but a server-wide public log is a complete other thing.

    I've put people on my block list at time, usually because they were spamming the chat, but I've never bothered to check who was on it afterwards, and, honestly, I'd probably forgotten why they ended up their anyway. I'm not into drama, so there isn't many "offences" that are worth me bothering in the first place, not worth my time and energy.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • We need social rank system where players could up or downvote other players as 10000 is a lot of names to remember. Serverwide or node only idk but that could work.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    We need social rank system where players could up or downvote other players as 10000 is a lot of names to remember. Serverwide or node only idk but that could work.

    That will just be weaponized and abused. Notes are fine, ingame or out of it.
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    To those concerned about unfair practices or not being able to defend yourself it would be a very easy process to identify the action. And once the action has been identified offer the player that received the action the ability through a UI pop up to add them to a list.

    Players will be able to share lists and thoughts regardless, this would at least be a way to create one that was official and the action known to have happened.
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  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Great discussion around the answer Steven gave on this question during the livestream!

    It's an evocative topic! Threads like this are very helpful for the team, so appreciate all the feedback here!

    I encourage everyone to discuss questions and answers from the monthly Q&A on the forums like this, so we can gauge feedback on them ^_^
    community_management.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Yeah, a public list of any sort is totally unnecessary.
    In Ashes, there are likely to only be around 2500 players in the part of the world we frequent. These are the people we will be grouping up with.

    It isnt like WoW where you could group up with any of the millions of players in your region.

    As such, players will very quickly get to know the people around them that want to run similar content. You dont need a server wide reputation list when you already know the people you are likely to end up grouping with
  • NuubNuub Member, Alpha Two
    Some people WILL steal if the game allows them to. Obviously, IS is ok with theft, it's built into the game. Certain sanctioned theft, for instance killing a player and taking their gatherables, have in game consequences in addition to any reputational consequences one might suffer. That means that a scoundrel would be encouraged to thieve through guile rather than through violence, and reputational damage isn't as important as upstanding citizens would like to think. I can imagine some communities where being a known scoundrel doesn't prevent you from taking part in group activities, especially if that scoundrel has great gear and is competent.

    My worst experiences in an MMO were when I experienced RL racism through the game, but after that, were the times felt victimized by disproportionate loot distribution. Makes me want to give up if I cannot earn a reward through merit and must also curry favor with the loot distributors.

    If each player had could enable personal loot for themselves, for example, when an item drops, it is distributed first to an eligible player, that player has the choice to take the loot, or pass it to the party to be distributed in the manner set by the party leader. A player can forgo personal loot option in favor of the party option, to not be bothered by the loot prompts. Most loot in the game will be trade materials, right? well, instead of a boss dropping one big certificate, drop 10 fragments of a certificate to promote more consistently even distribution.

    This would allow guilds/groups the freedom to distribute loot as they like, while any random person joining them can rest assured that they wont be treated unfairly.
    No matter what the loot rules are, you could still get kicked from the group and killed, possibly losing some or all of what you just looted.

    Unequal systems are most often championed by those disproportionately rewarded. I like the risk v reward, but i don't want to weigh the risk of getting screwed out of loot, with the risk of missing out entirely.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Nuub wrote: »
    Some people WILL steal if the game allows them to.
    I think you are perhaps forgetting that we have more than two decades of games where this isn't a problem.

    Sure, there are also some situations (in specific games, mostly) where it is an occasional issue - but it more "not an issue" than it is an issue.
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