Most Favourite: Something that makes me think or work to complete a challenge.
Least Favourite: Simple boring DPS-fest. There were a load of bosses in ESO that were: "Do X-amount of Damage in X-seconds, or the whole raid group wipes", and they were the most boring to fight.
Another thought based on that experience: Ideal mmorpg boss fights should allow players to cover for each other's mistakes, instead of requiring the whole party to achieve perfection. The former would likely promote teamwork and friendship between players (e.g. Thx for saving my ass bro!), while the later would likely promote nothing but finger pointing, anger, and stress/tension. (e.g. why did YOU keep dying to that aoe??? -50 dkp!!!)
I really like the way we can force 2 boss fighting at each other like in Monster Hunter Rise
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You lead the boss who can do a great amount of damages on another one and imagine being running for your life because the boss is following you because you smell like meat or you stole his eggs or idk and then the fight of the 2 bosses until our boss lose 15% hp the other leaves and come back to his place destroying everything on his way like the cyclops is destroying the trees it would make the bosses more "human" with their own personality. you see a dragon in the sky you know people are doig a boss and used that dragon to do damages
I like systems that include everyone. Having a boss fight that can't necessarily be done with the recommended party size as well. I hate seeing bosses be solo'd or get to the state where they eventually can be cheesed.
Randomness:
In most mmorpgs the bosses have a fixed rotation which makes it extremely boring in the long run as you know your rotation off by heart by the end. I would like to see randomness in the mechanics that the boss uses to always keep you on your toes. This would change the boss fight from memorising to actually learning the fight to be ready for whatever mechanic happens.
Minimisation of role based mechanics:
It was said before in this discussion, but I would like to see mechanics not be tied to a specific role, e.g. tank has to do this mechanic as anyone else would die, rather i would like to see the mechanic being solved by a player with higher defence/hp. Of course, there should still be role based mechanics that no other role can do. I've seen this too many times in FF, where the party wipes because a specific mechanic target is dead and players can't adjust the mechanic anymore as they are not used to changes. Similarly to the last point, players would have to learn the fight rather than being used to someone always doing the mechanic for them.
If the randomness is too difficult for world bosses, this could definitely be used for closed arena/raid style bosses or even higher difficulty raids.
Once you're done giving us your thoughts and opinions on Boss Mechanics, user @Azherae has made an interesting post relating to the topic, which can be found here:
Not a fan of stat check bosses where you kinda just only succeed with a certain gear score. I like small group boss mechanics that require strategy. I think Elyon had some cool mechanics that required teamwork. On a large scale basis I think good strategy with multiple enemies is the ideal way. Having too intricate of mechanics make large scale not enjoyable since it's difficult to get a full group to listen when you have mass raids. Something that requires general direction and focus is ideal I think. Various targets and objectives.
My most memorable boss fights happened in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. Specifically, the bosses found within the Gunbad dungeon. Below is a list of the mechanics I recall being used within Gunbad.
Tank and Spank: Some bosses in Gunbad followed the traditional tank and spank mechanic, where tanks held aggro and absorbed damage while the rest of the group focused on dealing damage. These encounters often required tanks to manage threat and positioning effectively. Sometimes tank and spank fights are a nice relief between harder fights.
Adds and Minions: Certain boss fights in Gunbad involved the summoning of additional enemies or minions by the bosses. Players needed to quickly handle these adds to prevent them from overwhelming the group or providing additional support to the boss.
Telegraphed Abilities: Bosses in Gunbad had telegraphed abilities, where they displayed visual indicators or animations that indicated the area of effect for their attacks. Players needed to be aware of these cues and move out of the way to avoid taking significant damage.
Environmental Hazards: Some boss encounters in Gunbad incorporated environmental hazards that players had to navigate or manage. This included avoiding traps, standing in safe zones, or dealing with hazardous terrain during the fight.
Mechanics Based on Roles: Gunbad boss fights required specific roles to perform certain tasks. For example, healers needed to cleanse debuffs or dispel harmful effects, tanks needed to taunt or handle specific adds, and damage dealers needed to interrupt or prioritize certain targets.
Phase Transitions: Certain bosses in Gunbad had multiple phases, each with different mechanics and challenges. These transitions occurred when the boss reached a certain health threshold or triggered specific events. Players had to adapt their strategies and tactics accordingly to succeed.
Unique Boss Abilities: Each boss in Gunbad had its own unique set of abilities and mechanics. Some bosses had powerful area-of-effect attacks, summoned reinforcements, applied debuffs, or required players to perform specific actions to counter their abilities.
In general, including world bosses? Shield effects you need to counter/play around. Having to time your burst during windows when the boss's defences are down, preferably where you lose if you waste all your cooldowns & mana during the invulnerable phases (so if you don't kill the boss within its first 5-7 vulnerable windows, or deal too much damage during the invulnerable phases, it gets too strong and wipes your party, or heals, or resets its encounter or something.)
I've played games with world bosses like that, and while it does cause some frustration, I personally thrive in the need to coordinate large groups of people, and I think it's a good thing that some encounters will fail because of lacking coordination. Then you just have to come back at a later time, with a different crowd, or when certain people don't happen to be around. That's part of the challenge.
Regarding dungeon bosses?
Here it really depends on the dungeon experience overall for me, and while I realise that it's a little obnoxious, I have to point back to my comment on dungeon design here. If you make me enter a dungeon for 30-60 minutes just to "do a quest" and "kill mobs" for 50 minutes and then do kill a boss for 10, I'd much rather be farming mobs on the overland map (and in fact I'd want the game to encourage me to do that and socialise outside of the instance instead, and reduce the dungeon to a quick boss rush!), and the boss mechanics won't salvage it for me.
If the dungeon mechanics overall are intriguing and making it worth to enter an instance/linear progression zone, I enjoy any boss design you come up with.
Then you can make it as challenging as you like, from extremely complex mechanics that require perfect preparation and execution, to forgiving battles where you only die if your party messes up the basic task of its roles.
But it really hinges on that foundation that I'm not coming into it exhausted after unoptimal, linear, seemingly optional/pointless grinding.
Conclusion
Combine unique gimmicks like that with high damage threat like we've seen on the Cyclops (High AoE threat to keep up the challenge and heavy punishment when you disrespect the more obvious mechanics, even on easier bosses), and some mechanics that require certain types of abilities (e.g. cleanses, certain damage types, certain resistance types, that typical stuff), and I'm happy.
And don't disclose all bosses' mechanics in quests or leave them unannounced. Hide the information about some of the difficult, obscure ones in books or something, for the community to find in a corner of a library.
Boss Mechanics - Creature/Monster's Behaviors when confronted in certain environments.
I've played too many games in my lifetime, therefor, I'll try not to use any as examples but instead give this a clean look about and try to give meaning to the title of my post.
Let's use the dragon you've displayed as an example for my thoughts today. With any given MMORPG or RPGX style games, the enemies/monsters are usually scripted and have a radius encompassing they're anchors as to when they'll react once encroached upon... but let's say for argument that this style of monster scripting is no longer needed as we have integrated machine learning behavioral patterns worked into the coding of each type of species encountered in Ashes of Creation. As with such, let's go back to the Dragon and utilize him/her in a PC battle encounter shall we: Our PC party shows up at the top of a craggy trail littered with broken rocks, downed trees, and big boulders. As we take in the surroundings, we notice that not only does the trail stop here, but the area is a wide canyon with sheer facing cliffs rising several meters above us on 3 sides. We know that if the dragon we now see storming out of the large conspicuous hole at the back of the canyon is ever able to box us into one of the back corners, we'll be toast!
As we begin to engage the beast it quickly thumps it's massive tail against the cliff wall and knocks small boulders down blocking access to the hole in whence it came from. The Dragon's behavior is like that of a cat as once it's health has dropped below 65% it beats it's Heavy wings and lifts from the ground, while causing many in our group to fail their stagger rolls and get wind-blasted into the ground for some mild AoE Damage. Anyone with the bad luck of being close to the edge of the wings when it decides to ascend will take more severe damage from the action taken by the Dragon. At this point the Dragon has opted for taking the "higher ground" and settles on top of one of the canyon's cliffs and starts to roar and blast fireball & dark energy-lightning ball spells while utilizing it's tail to push boulders off into the canyon to hit us with crush damages. Once enough ranged DPS has pushed it to 50% Health, the Dragon makes a distinctive wail into the sky and hordes of Komodo-Dragon style large lizards come rushing into the canyon to keep the melee DPS and secondary tank busy, however, that's not the worst problem we're facing.... this new system of "animal/monster behaviors" has triggered a group of winged offspring to come to their parent's aid, so now we have more death from the skies to deal with as aerial adders. Once the offspring have fully engaged our group, the Main Dragon spreads it's wings and "Glide-Walks" down the side of the cliff using it's massive claws to dredge up more stones and boulders, then lands dead center in the battle and spins around using it's tail to knock-back and/or drop as many of us as possible. This is only one small example of how a dragon "might" utilize it's cat-like "animal-instincts" and the environment to it's advantage and to our demise if not properly educated on it's behaviors when confronted in the wild.
I guess my answer to your question would be: If we could adopt this level of synergy in the behavioral mechanics of the Animals/Monsters/Bosses instead of relying 100% on scripted code, it would make another facet of AoC as unique and jaw-dropping as the seasonal changes planned.
I know you have oodles of talent working in those offices now, and this is just the type of thing I'd imagine they'd grin and say "oh yeah... this would be fun!" Total can-do attitudes always win the day!
Have fun Devs... it's the most important aspect of your jobs! - Nylfaen
CONTINUED: Once enough ranged DPS has pushed it to 50% Health, the Dragon makes a distinctive wail into the sky and hordes of Komodo-Dragon style large lizards come rushing into the canyon to keep the melee DPS and secondary tank busy, however, that's not the worst problem we're facing.... this new system of "animal/monster behaviors" has triggered a group of winged offspring to come to their parent's aid, so now we have more death from the skies to deal with as aerial adders. Once the offspring have fully engaged our group, the Main Dragon spreads it's wings and "Glide-Walks" down the side of the cliff using it's massive claws to dredge up more stones and boulders, then lands dead center in the battle and spins around using it's tail to knock-back and/or drop as many of us as possible. This is only one small example of how a dragon "might" utilize it's cat-like "animal-instincts" and the environment to it's advantage and to our demise if not properly educated on it's behaviors when confronted in the wild.
I guess my answer to your question would be: If we could adopt this level of synergy in the behavioral mechanics of the Animals/Monsters/Bosses instead of relying 100% on scripted code, it would make another facet of AoC as unique and jaw-dropping as the seasonal changes planned.
I know you have oodles of talent working in those offices now, and this is just the type of thing I'd imagine they'd grin and say "oh yeah... this would be fun!" Total can-do attitudes always win the day!
Have fun Devs... it's the most important aspect of your jobs! - Nylfaen
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs? Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
I do not personally usually get excited for boss fights as its just something i do for loot in most games as well as a orchestrated dance in what seems like every MMORPG nowadays.. However i will try to think way way way back when i was a MMORPG Virgin playing Asherons Call in 99' doing boss fights before the internet was full of guides and lists of possible loot tables.
Some extremely memorable moments was when we fought as a small group a bunny boss (A literal small bunny) that hit like a literal freight train and had boss level health. It was a homage to Monty Python. And afterwards it could be turned into a wand. Think your hand in a bunnies butt while you wave a wand, or in this case bunny for casters. It was fun, shocking, and amusing. As this bunny rabidly manically ran around attacking and taking people out. You had to have enough dps to take it out before it wiped you.
Another was a boss event where a GM played Martine who is a arch-nemesis of the main good guy Asheron. Having to chase around this GM boss character as it tried to destroy the world and 100's of players from all over trying to fight him off and stop him. None-the-less it was fun chasing him around the world to confront him to take him out. I have never seen this in any other game, a GM play a Boss or world event character by hand. And i do truly hope to see it in AoC as you can actually lift the community. Fighting a fixed boss where there is a certain way to defeat them is one thing. Fighting a intelligent ever changing human player boss it a total other thing that is never easily forgotten. This boss fight has to be my most memorable by far in my 20 years of MMORPG's.
On a side-note i know this is about boss fights but perhaps a thread soon about most memorable world events would be a great idea as well.
Alright, I finally found an FFXI boss that meets all the parameters requested while also helping explain why most don't. Expand below for the explanation of that, or just skip on to Karkinos.
The one part that I will keep out of the tag below that is important to know is that Karkinos is a Crab and by nature has most if not all Crab abilities and traits.
So the reason I don't want to give FFXI bosses to begin with is because of what the game uses for difficulty or challenge, broken up into a few points.
All FFXI mobs are technically difficult. Yes, all. That's just the design, only your level matters.
The Majority of FFXI normal mobs are easier than bosses because they are more predictable or simplistic.
The remaining Minority are rare, meant to be a threat or challenge in the area they exist in, but even then are often predictable
Bosses get around this by first shifting around the combinations of traits and increasing the range of theoretically available abilities that the mob actually uses to make them more complex and difficult
Bosses then additionally get other abilities from other 'jobs' that they sometimes 'shouldn't have' to make this combinatorial complexity even higher.
Overall the result is that normally you know what the ability the boss is using, does, because other things, often players themselves, have these abilities. What you have to deal with is 'special traits' and 'why is this combined with this other thing this is so OP we're gonna die'. Basically, they break the balance rules.
I didn't want to use any Bosses that are hard or complex only because they 'break the balance rules by Combination' because I feel it requires too much FFXI knowledge to appreciate or draw any reference from. But after thinking about it for a long time I finally found a boss that I somewhat like, where the only requirement for understanding is the TP Gauge which I can probably gloss over as a different explanation for the unfamiliar.
Karkinos is useful because it's just a big 'normal Crab'. It's enhanced, but it's not 'making a Crab, which is normally a Paladin, into a Red Mage+/Monk that summons adds(like King Arthro) which is their normal method of this sort of thing. And Crabs are simplistic mobs intended to outlast you, slow down your exp gain, or 'stall you long enough to get aggro or link from something else'.
It's just an empowered Crab, and therefore is actually empowered to do things 'better' than a Normal Crab instead of doing more things, so I can talk about it in a vacuum.
The idea of Karkinos is that he has a lot of physical defense. So you first have to figure out how you're getting around that, but attempting to solve it by just 'bringing more casters' doesn't work easily because he simply has too much HP for even a large group of powerful casters to bring him down quickly, and he hits casters very hard.
Also, since DoT sources are 'one per DoT', you would want to vary your DoT options, but otherwise you're still 'just waiting'.
When Karkinos has high HP, he uses normal Crab attacks, the ones we care about are Big Scissors which is just a relatively stronger single hit attack, and Bubble Shower, which is AoE around him and Strength Down. On normal Crabs these are just there to 'make you need a Tank' and 'slow down kills' more or less. If you fought a Crab multiple levels above you, the STR Down might be enough to help the Crab stall long enough to kill someone, but generally not.
Crabs are generally a less threatening target to a standard exp party due to their defensiveness. Nice 'introduction to group combat' enemies, and you meet them in the area where most people experienced group combat for the first time for a long time. This is mildly important because Karkinos serves a similar purpose in Abyssea which is 'Boss Rush' style content for lategame.
So you basically start hitting him to get your special attacks ready and he shrugs off a lot of it. If you do 0 damage you build no gauge so you can't do those special attacks. If you hit him for very little, you're still chipping at him with every strike and if you chip at him a certain number of times he'll do one of the simple mechanics he has.
But against Karkinos, that Bubble Shower STR Down can bring you from 'doing minor damage' to 'doing no damage'. This is 'fine' in the sense that if you are doing no damage you are not 'chipping' him so he won't do another mechanic soon, but 'bad' because your 'Synergy' relies on two people doing their special attacks in order followed by the Mage doing a big blast that gets empowered by that.
So what you want the most is for the Tank to not lose hate as much over time. FFXI contains no 'Look at me!' taunt, only 'I am bumping my hate value up by X amount without actually doing any damage, temporarily'.
This is interesting here because that means the better Tank is the Paladin who has the most of this type, but the Paladin also actually takes hits unlike Ninjas who evade them. And Karkinos can do his special attacks because he's hitting too.
The fight usually becomes about 'empowering a Mage' while leveraging everyone else's skills and abilities to let that Mage shine, but just 'bringing more Mages' only works if you are quite prepared in specific ways. It works about the same, sometimes slightly 'less good'.
A concept of a 'good' method would be, as example:
Paladin to take minimal damage and build maximum non-damage based Hate/Threat.
White Mage to improve Paladin defenses and backup heal (Paladin is main heal for the above reason)
Thief to both put more Hate/Threat onto Paladin and to steal some of the Mage's hate and redirect to self, also to 'offtank' since they are evasive, and to add Defense Down status from Crossbow (a Dark Knight with Thief Secondary works just as well or better here, losing only the "Steal Hate From Mage" function in exchange for more magic attacks and some unique-to-them debuffs)
Bard to do what Bards do. A little of everything. Increase Stats, slow healing, DoT on Karkinos, Mana sustain for the mage, they're always busy.
Add Any DPS that can add other DoT sources or "Enspells", which do their magic damage regardless of if the actual strike 'hits for 0' because they're doing damage without 'chipping' Karkinos
Optionally Add a Summoner to do... almost as much as the Bard, I won't get into this, they are complicated, but a good choice for this fight if you work with them well.
And of course, the star of the show, the Black Mage themselves. To casts the spells that makes the people (or crab) fall down.
Relatively poor choices:
Warriors (it's a Crab, they don't do much as a Primary and they're bruisers, this is not where you need a Bruiser normally, but they can also use Berserk to make up for this specifically because the enemy is not very damaging, and they can use Weapon Skills to lower its defense and evasion and so on, it's basically that you have to work with them and can't just slap them into any party and use the same plan as easily)
Monks (See above, but 'worse', they can manage the same as Warriors with Warrior Secondary though)
Dragoons (They're ok but don't really contribute much of anything extra here either unless using a very specific build)
Samurai (Surprisingly useless in my experience despite not needing to actually chip Karkinos to gain special attacks, but can at least help with Thief Secondary)
Ninjas (don't bother unless you are determined or you're planning to rely on DoT, particularly if you brought the Dark Knight and not the Thief, but can be effective with Thief Secondary or other more complicated builds).
All relatively poor choices refer only to 'if you just happened to grab one passing by to fill the numbers' because their likely build won't suit the purpose. Entirely unconnected from anyone who built for this fight.
Now finally our two simplistic 'mechanics'.
Occasionally and almost entirely at random (though the chance increases as its HP drops), Karkinos 'upgrades' Bubble Shower to Venom Shower. The poison is strong and only Monks can remove it, and only from themselves. You can stun this and then it will 'reroll' which ability it does, but it will usually do another shortly after and it can be Venom Shower again anyway. In the early phases this is the main plan. Stun this attack and hope it does something else instead when it recovers from the CC. Bonus if your Mage has some defenses up, they should also go for a big attack here, if they take hate momentarily they can lose it by taking the hit sometimes instead of the Tank and then a Paladin tank can heal THEM to 'absorb' all that Hate. If somehow this isn't enough, there's always Cover, directly protecting them.
Then there's Mega Scissors, which is similar in how/when it happens, but 'nicer' to us because it's conal but also hate reset. Here, you're rather hoping it hits the Mage by coordination, but this is risky and unnecessary, so usually you just need to have the Mage blast when you see it if the Thief is ready. The Tank loses Hate (basically their value gets set to either 0 or 'lower than most of the group'), the Mage takes it, and the Thief steals it and becomes the Tank for a bit.
Also works fine if the standard 'two tanks' setup is used (this is actually a multi-group mob when you first meet it).
If Karkinos is low, just these two changes result in a 'different battle flow' because the players' 'responses to the mechanics' are themselves 'emergent mechanics'. If you get hit by Venom Shower, you aren't dying to it, but you are 'in a state where you don't want to chip Karkinos and trigger Mega Scissors'.
But too many Venom Showers back to back and the Bard has to change behaviour since the Healer (and Paladin probably) are starting to run low on Mana. They both have Weapon Skills to regain it, but that involves hitting Karkinos enough.
Similarly too many Mega Scissors in a row after a long string of no Mega Scissors means that now, the rest of the group is probably at higher hate values, meaning that if both Tanks get reset to low, it will take them much longer to regain control of Karkinos and the Mage and Thief basically must coordinate to achieve this, and hope that the situation is favorable in terms of the availability of people's special attacks.
So you get the emergent behaviour of 'holding your Weapon Skills after Mega Scissors#1 because there haven't been any Mega Scissors in a while and if you don't have them ready then Mega Scissors #2 might lead to big damage somewhere'.
Or the Paladin going 'Use them' because they know that they have a bunch of defensive skills and Cover ready to be used to protect the Mage after the chain puts the Mage high on the list and it won't matter if the Paladin actually has hate or not because Cover doesn't care about that.
And at that point they're actually hoping for Mega Scissors #2 because they'll be standing in front of the Mage, who should defensively buff and hope for Mega Scissors to hit them too.
But now everyone is focused on stunning Venom Shower because the last thing you want is a lower HP Mage hit by that when the Tank can only protect them from physical hits, especially since if you stun Venom Shower and get lucky, Mega Scissors will follow and all this time that Mage is just offloading spells into Karkinos to get damage while being Covered hoping that Mega Scissors is about to reset all Karkinos' hate on them without them dying somehow.
But then some days you just run out of Stuns or whatever to stop Venom Shower and everyone has to refactor and adapt again because now your Mage and Tank are both Venom Showered and your best bet is to have your Healer use a huge AoE heal and then the Thief steal their hate instead and tank Karkinos until the Paladin(s) get back up there in the list.
There's more to this fight as you add more people, especially Summoners, but I think this is closer to what Intrepid is looking for without all the extra.
I enjoy this fight, whether as Thief, White Mage, or Ninja (assuming I built for it on that day and the rest of the group is also adapted toward it in whatever way). Despite its relatively simple core 'Boss Abilities' Mechanics types, I enjoy all the adaptation to the shifting situation and view things like 'Double Venom Shower after Mega Scissors' as the equivalent of another game's 'Here is a big mechanic you need to do this thing to avoid'.
All without changing Karkinos from being anything other than 'empowered Crab'.
I really hope that every encounter is well thought out with PVP in mind, it worries me that Intrepid thinks PVE when designing boss fights instead of always thinking PvX.
I believe these bosses need to be on the longer TTK side, with multiple phases, 5 phases minimum with 2~3 minutes of downtime in between, and mechanics should account for multiple groups engaging in PvP creating the opportunity for counterplay to occur.
For example, mechanics that keep the first raid busy and susceptible to attacks like an enraged phase or a phase with multiple spawned objectives - but also brief moments where the boss becomes invulnerable/jumps away for a few minutes spawning weak adds that would give the opportunity for a 2/3 minute PvP brawl until the boss comes back.
Things like that would make these encounters very interesting and wouldn't impact the content when PvP is not happening. I also hope bosses have a long respawn timer with RNG so they won't be farmed and camped over and over again.
i personally played Star Wars The Old Republic since beta and one of the bosses i found very interesting is the final boss of eternity vault because of him breaking the ground and you have to move from platform to platform in order to get to the next phase of the fight. the raid added some puzzle solving as well towards the end of the raid the puzzle was before you got to the final boss. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsNPvsddjv0
another game that did this was new world, the puzzle solving gave me satisfaction that i know how to solve the puzzle the only thing i didn't like was the one-shot mechanics some of the puzzles had where if you mess up, you're most likely going to die.
I've been following ashes since the beginning and this is my first time posting, however I believe i have read just about every discussion on these forums. With that being said, this is my take on boss fights.
1. Balance - I believe boss fights first and for most should be relevant, i always enjoyed when i was directed to go kill a boss for something other then loot. i balance between skill and strategy has always been what i enjoyed. I believe bosses should have some time of mechanic where it prevents it from being a zerg fest. When mechanics can be completely ignored it makes a boss fights just another "trash mob". I also believe the boss fights should just be a boss fights, meaning it should be a challenge one way or the other, when bosses do abilities at certain points during the fight, eventually it gets min maxed and the boss becomes irrelevant, having some type of complete randomness to the abilities and when they are used i believe is ideal to keep a boss fight fun, exciting and new every recounter.
2. Clutter - most of the boss fights i have enjoyed in WOW, Archeage, Lost Ark Ultima Online even, have been the challenging ones where the spells, the extra adds, and environment didn't cover the screen just for the same of making it more hectic. I do believe that some bosses should be hectic for the player, and they should be a challenge for a guild or a party to kill bosses, I believe early days of Archaege bosses did this very well. I dont recall the name of the boss however there was a boss in archeage where at some point throughout the fight there was a period of time where the healers, tanks, and dps had to do as much dps as possible, and even thought he boss itself wasn't really doing any abilities there was environmental waves of water that needed to be dodge by everyone.
3. Graphics - i've always enjoyed fights where the bosses just simply look epic, now this doesn't really affect the mechanics and or quality of the encounters, however when u do have a great looking boss with great animations, it just helps with the emersion, leviathan in archeage i believe was a perfect example of that.
4. Encounter - as much as i hate to say this, bosses should have a certain level of strategy and and skill, if guilds or partys cant kill certain bosses that should be ok. I believe this also helps the player base grow in skill and want to be better to be able to kill all the harder bosses.
i cant finish my rant because i have to go but, some of my memorable bosses have been. are below
WOW
illedan
ragnaros
C'thun
4 horsemen (vanilla)
garrosh
azuregos
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs.
A: For both small and large groups my favorite boss mechanics are those that creates Chaos that shatters cookie-cutter strategies and forces players adaptability skills against unpredictable circunstances.
Most of those "Chaotic Mechanics" are related to RNG, may it be: RNG Target interactions (Random Threat Loss/Gain/Transfer/Ignore and Chance of Resist against Threat skills) RNG Boss Skills (In its critical chance, frequency and types) RNG Boss' Minion spawns (Their frequency, their amount and their type) RNG Boss Environmental Threats (Their frequency, their size, their amount and their type)
Such chaotic mechanics are not only a challenge for the players fighting against the Boss but also for the PvP contenders trying to take over the boss for themselves in open world scenarios.
As for my Least favorite boss mechanics for both small and large groups, are those that are overly scripted and vulnerable for AI manipulation such as do X when the boss reach Y HP amount and do A if B is used in C situation, those have their utility specially if intented for anti-zerg mechanics like M happens to the boss if N number of players attacks it atleast once for O seconds/minutes.
Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
A: Most fights against Lineage 2 Grand Bosses like Valakas, Antharas and Beleth were memorable for me, not only because of the Chaotic Mechanics they had, or their overall difficulty( Insane stats, HUGE oneshots and CC AoEs and hella strong minions) but also how they influenced PvP conflics inside of their arenas, creating truly special PvX Scenarios.
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs? Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
My favorite groups mechanics for boss encounters would be
1. directional attacks that require movement to be avoided (a cone attack from a boss requiring you to sidestep).
2. ragdoll effects should these directional attacks, or other large attacks attacks, not be avoided.
3. stacking tiers of a debuff for the party requiring a specific skill/item in the arena/cc effect in order to remove the debuff i.e. damage over time increasing the longer the fight goes on, in order to halt this damage from increasing or perhaps reset it, utilizing a cleansing device in the area to reset this DoT.
4. making mobs in the boss fight matter, but correctly. if it’s a boss fight, treat it like one. make the boss the prime target, you never want to hear a player say “it’s not a boss fight, it’s an add fight.” however, the mobs should play a key role in getting the boss killed. my favorite example is the Remmorchant raid in LOTRO, in which all spiders you have killed must be manually burned with a torch, otherwise Shelob will come down after the add phase, eat the dead spiders and gain a massive buff, usually wiping the group.
5. mechanics where the boss receives -80% incoming damage because they aren’t in a specific area is always appreciated, however, as long as the area chosen to remove this buff is not rampant and has no meaning, i would appreciate this mechanic
Those mechanics I do NOT like include
1. where the boss’s mechanics have become so meaningless and futile, and the add’s mechanics and presence have outshadowed the boss itself, there’s an issue. i started the raid to kill a boss with 50k hp, not 50 mobs with 1k hp apiece and a 50k hp boss with brain dead mechanics
2. mechanics that favor different classes over others in explicit ways. obviously, some fights may be slightly favored towards ranges or dps, but if a melee class is chosen every single time over a ranged class due to 2-3 skills that make all the difference, something is wrong with boss design. if i stack 5 fighters for my chosen dps and refuse to take rangers due to the intended boss reflecting ranged damage only, the mechanics are broken (this is a silly mechanic, but you get my point).
3. boss mechanics that don’t make sense for the boss to have. kind of a no brainer. but you’d be surprised. or maybe you wouldn’t be.
ultimately, there aren’t too many mechanics i dislike, as there are many ways to formulate a raid boss, and as long as i feel engaged as a player and meaningful to the group, i am likely enjoying any mechanic implemented.
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs? Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
Intro:
It probably feels like I just spam GMTK vid links in each of my posts, but there is a lot of value in thinking about how these design principles can spill over into different systems, and the value in layering these types of designs together at both a large and small scale. As usual, i've linked many videos on the relevant topics to support my points, I ask that you please find the time to watch them to better understand my thought process.
Topic 1- How RNG is handled
-I like when behavior is unpredictable, but there is still counterplay to it. Which means the mechanics may present themselves in unpredictable ways, but you can still either prepare for or react to the mechanics to counter them. This means fights can remain skillful and not be completely chaotic and frustrating where the results are out of your hands- but the gameplay is also still dynamic and different moment-to-moment as you have to adapt to the situations at hand. I would say this is relevant to having more input rng and less output rng in general.
Topic 2- Agency through Problem solving instead of puzzle solving (breadth of options available to the player and supported by the design)
Boss encounter design supports various approaches and playstyles:
A) There is room for different team compositions, with strategy and preparation in what team composition suits the situation (making more versatile team comps vs more specialized)
B- encounter design has purposes for non-combat gameplay styles
- encounters allow for gatherables during the combat
- encounters allow for taming during the combat
- mechanics can be used for crafting in real time (like tricking a dragon to breath fire to smelt and enchant the sword, or to cook a legendary dish)
- can you be stealthy and sneak around a boss?
- can you skillfully traverse around or above them when the boss gives chase?
- the boss can be talked to in a meaningful way, such as convinced not to fight, or bribing them, or recruited them for other purposes (like using your lore knowledge of tumok to convine him to team up for revenge against those who betrayed him, perhaps for an even more epic fight than just fighting Tumok himself)
- can be skillfully lured/trained to be pitted against other creatures, like another boss (basically the encounter supports emergent strategies)
- can be used for exploration purposes (like stalking the boss to see their routine, and how it interacts with the environment, to find secret places only it can access, or to see how you can disrupt its behavior to manipulate it into opening up hidden locations for you.)
- I also want to be questioning the morality of which approach I decide to take (was it right for me to manipulate Tumok for my own desires? Was it right for me to kill him? was it right for me to steal resources from him? etc., I feel like this should be an important part of how the lore and story all connect between different encounters and choices the player makes throughout their adventure.)
- I want bosses to deeply play into the story and player experience. I should have a strong feeling toward the boss, based on how it connects to me personally as a player through its personality, its intentions, its behaviors, etc. Do I actually hate this boss and want to kill it? why? Do I actually feel sorry for it? why? Why should I be emotionally invested in this boss and have that feeling toward it?
C) There are lots of unique combat options available to interact with the boss, outside of just the standard combat system
- such as climbing on the boss
- using specific tools (like a grapple to trip the boss, or different traps)
- using the environment (like leading the boss near a cliff so you could reach their neck or eyes as a weak point) or using a gliding mount from further away to land on the bosses head
-using other types of combat to deal with an encounter, such as beinfg able to use fast mounts for "run and gun" style of fighting, or being able to use naval ships for support to bombard the boss, or training mobs or another boss to fight each other in an emergent way
Topic 3- Agency through strategic Depth, Skill, Challenge, and Mastery
1. fights should have a lot of strategic elements to them
- I think that there should be a need to focus on or disable specific body parts/limbs during a boss encounter, this adds depth, immersion, and personality to the encounter.
This could be things like dismemberment, where you can cut off the tail of a dragon, and this disables its tail attacks, or it could be a weakness you can target, such as shooting a cyclops in the eye. Though I would prefer a more action oriented approach, you could still have tab targeting for different body parts, by making different parts individual targets you can cycle through.
-I do think its interesting when there are multiple bosses in the same fight that synergize with each other, which can add strategy to the fight through target prioritization and added positional/spacial considerations
- Bosses can also be fun and unique when there is an extra component that involves protecting or escorting a teammate while they perform a specific task (as explained in another section, this would depend on how it is implemented, because I dont like when there is a singular one-dimensional mechanic the boss is designed around, I would prefer that it would be layered on top to add to dynamism and management aspects, rather than simplifying the encounter.)
Overall there should be lots of room for improving efficiency and tactics against a given encounter
- I like when you can use environmental advantages as a positional and tactical tool
This could be advantages you can get from using the environment both at a large scale strategic level (like utilizing chokepoints/flanking/etc.) and at a smaller scale tactical level (like utilizing line of sight from the terrain, or high ground advantages, or utilizing contextual actions like jumping off the hugh ground on to the boss, or pushing the boss of a high area for fall damage)
-I like when there are physics-based tools and boss-specific mechanics as extra/unique tactical options
I like when physics are involved in certain combat mechanics (like having to gain speed to wrap a rope tightly around a bosses legs to trip them up, or using enough force on a log to move it at high velocity to knock a boss over)
2. Skill checks
A) non-combat skills
-skillful and interactive traversal as a fun way of interacting with encounters (such as traversing around them to bypass the encounter, or chasing them at high speed during an encounter)
I think this is a fun way of interacting with enemies and should be supported (without ruining the combat balance by favoring the more passive retreating strategies), I think there should also be boss fights that emphasize movement as a part of the encounter (like chasing a retreating boss).
This video talks about how to make this a fun experience and avoid making it a chore to traverse and chase things around, which I think would be a fun option for dealing with boss encounters
-physics
Physics is a way of adding interesting skill- checks to mechanics, and can make for fun extra ways of interacting with bosses if you don't want to incoporate it too much in the standard combat system.
B- spacing, timing, positioning skills
This video talks about how to challenge the player in some of these ways, by testing their combat skill to ensure that fights are engaging
- I love when bosses are also mobile along with the player, this is far more engaging then when they just stay in a static position the whole fight. This opens up another dimension because you can challenge the player on their spacial awareness, and distance control, and utilizing more of their class kits- rather than just their positioning and dodging skills which is generally over-emphasized with those static boss fights.
That being said I like when boss fights challenge you on your mastery over your entire class kit and the combat system as a whole. These are far more interesting and fun boss fights. Its fine if early-game fights are less complex in this manner to teach the player the mechanics, but I think the more difficult versions of early game bosses, or the most complex late game bosses should be more challenging and/or comprehensive in their design to include fun boss fights/challenge more skilled players throughout the whole experience.
3. Challenge
A) Mechanical variety
These videos discuss some universally applicable design approaches from the Doom series, and make some good points about Doom's combat and enemy encounter design, some tips for designing enemy encounters, how important that is to the combat experience, and some levers you can pull to create more diverse types of encounters and mechanics
I think by focusing on that "possibility space" mentioned in the video when designing encounters, this could create variety within encounters and also be used to create more dynamic and engaging encounters that challenge the players versatility, adaptability, and mastery over the combat system.
This mechanical variety, when used well, is one tool for challenging players to use their entire kit more efficiently, such as movement, offense, defense, resource management, etc.
This displays how both the encounter design and the class kits play a role in creating the overall combat experience, resulting in a "dance" between the two, so ensuring that both work in harmony is integral for making a good overall combat experience.
B- Adaptive A.I.
I think good A.I. is essential for good boss encounters. The A.I. should not only adapt to provide challenge based on the player's skill level, but it should also adapt its strategy based on the player's strategy. This creates a lot of depth and dynamism organically throughout the fight, where the player and boss are learning behaviors and trying to counter them in a fun back and forth, which creates a unique story and experience for each player, during each encounter.
- As I stated before I think the boss encounters should support a variety of strategies and playstyles. Some of these being knowledge based gameplay and "talking/convincing" based gameplay.
In the past i've linked vids that go over how to make talking fun and how to test player knowledge rather than handing them info (such as the "how to make talking fun" and "what makes a good detective game" GMTK video discussions)
here is an example of how this kind of gameplay could be used as a boss encounter design, through utilizing A.I. to further challenge players in a back and forth discussion.
A lot of this tech has advanced, and recently has been asked about a lot in regards to utilizing more advanced A.I. interactions through things like chat gpt, or through attempts to make mmos that focus on this type of gameplay like the MMO "StoryBricks". I think there is a lot of value in considering this style of approach for boss encounter design, to push the level of challenge and immersion to better support alternative playstyle approaches and add variety and depth to gameplay options.
C) Measuring and rewarding efficiency
One form of difficulty that adapts to the player is a scoring system. Steven mentioned there will be a lot of data tracking for players to compare with each other. I think this is great, but I think it could be utilized for even more benefits.
1. scoring can be used to encourage the intended experience (so if you want player's to not "cheese" a boss and instead engage with the full combat kit, there could be scoring systems that reward the more interesting ways of playing)
2. scoring systems can be used to reward the player for the actual gameplay itself, without triggering the "overjustification" effect described in this video.
as stated in the video, you also don't want your scoring system to be something that rewards arbitrary thresholds for the player, as this takes away from the more meaningful reward of striving to become more efficient, which is what the scoring system should be focused around
3. scoring systems allow for easier content that lower-skilled players can still complete for worse scores, while still having room for higher-skilled players to grow and be rewarded through better scoring
4. scoring gives a pvp element to more pve based content, through being able to compete with other's scores without directly fighting other players
5. The scoring system could be utilized as a risk/reward mechanic, to incentivize players to take risks to get better scores
6. Better scoring could also be linked to other instrinsically meaningful rewards such as "better" battle music, to provide more meaningful and valuable experiences and incentives
This video goes into more detail of how modern design can better utilize scoring systems, while also avoiding the common downsides
D) Unique but simplistic boss mechanics vs. layered mechanics and added complexity
- I actually enjoy having phases of boss fights where they are basically just more complex, intelligent, and versatile versions of regular enemies. This is interesting because if enough variety and complexity is added to the boss design and level of challenge, then this can be leveraged to really challenge the player's mastery over the full combat system, and push their class kit to its limits, while expanding the diffculty and challenge of simple mechanics that were already taught to the player.
I think this is a very fun way of handling boss fights rather than having them be solely about the boss having unique mechanics and interactions with "puzzle-like" solutions. I think the absolute hardest boss fights should ultimately be about overall combat mastery, but with the added complexity of having unique mechanics and interactions. I dont like when unique boss mechanics/unique interactions are forced and are the only way of dealing with the boss, it can become pretty simplistic, dull, repetitive, and feel "one-dimensional". I think it should be an extra component, that acts as an extra tool in the player's kit, but needs to be used in conjunction with the rest of the kit, and used in a smart way.
So, rather than "the only way to beat this phase of this specific boss is to activate this scripted boss-specific trap" it should be "man this boss phaze is tough if we only use our class kit, how can we continue fighting while actually trying to lure it into this trap to beat this phaze more efficiently?". I think this approach could be very fun and emergent if direct combat with a boss is actually more about having additional combat complexity on top of additional unique interactions to master, rather than just stripping away and substituting out mechanics for "variety" but sacrificing depth in the process. These additional interactions could be lots of cool things, such as traps, physics based tools, and other things I listed in this post.
- I think its fun when unique mechanics and interactions are very "sandbox", where the extra mechanics are more options for player to manage, so they have to choose if/when they want to utilize these tools- something similar to old school Halo design, or the original Battlefront games, which were very "sandbox" experiences with different vehicles/weapons/etc. at the player's disposal.
- I also think it would be really fun to have unique mechanics for dealing with bosses that are synergistic and require teamwork. Things like coordinating with your team to trigger separate components of a trap (like one group trying to get the boss to face a certain direction and lead him toward a pit, while another does tries to set up a swinging log trap and aim it so that it would knock the boss into the pit, while another group tries to trigger the trap by cutting the rope which may be guarded by something.) Trying to manage these types of coordinated actions while simultaneously trying to survive and deal with the exisiting open world and boss mechanics, could be very exciting, and compelling imo.
Topic 4- How boss encounter mechanics are introduced, taught, and handled
1. Treating boss phases as "level design":
Different phases of a boss are essentially different isolated experiences that challenge the player like "levels" in a game.
Like I touched on earlier, you want to have fun boss fights and challenge different levels of skill throughout the whole experience. Based on this I think bosses throughout the whole game should adapt to the skill of the player to open up phases that are more challenging "twists" using existing mechanics and/or phases that are more complex when appropriate. Based on this I like when boss phazes combine previously introduced mechanics. Its good game design when mechanics are introduced individually to teach the player, and then are combined to create more interesting challenges and more fun experiences. I think a good approach to boss phases would be to treat them like "levels" in a level-based game.
Here are some relevant videos that break down some design approaches used for good level design that could apply to boss phases and design in the world.
A) introducing challenging/complex mechanics individually and in simple terms
Application:
This applies to introducing and teaching the player the mechanics through earlier simple phases in a boss encounter, or even just using other enemies to teach mechanics, before then challenging the player on their mastery over these mechanics during boss encounters.
B- allow for sequence breaking
Sequence breaking is just being able to access harder content before you are "ready" for it. This could apply to the actual phases themselves within a boss encounter due to the natural progression of the difficulty curve as the fight goes on.
Application:
It would be cool of there were ways to prompt for specific boss phases (like angering the boss to initiate his hardest phase immediately), but then your party is getting crushed and there may be some adaptive difficulty that kicks in but offers a lower reward. This offers some customizability in the experience and allows veteran players to bypass the stale early phases if they are already familiar or want to take the risk.
C) This video talks about how Rayman fully explores ways to present new challenges and twists on individual mechanics
Application: This is a good way of adding depth and breadth in a simple way, by using mechanics that are already familiar to the player, and making them think critically about how they work and how they can use them for different purposes. This design approach is just another tool for adding complexity to challenges, and also a more efficient and simple way of doing so, which could be useful when trying to add challenge to more complex boss phases using existing mechanics. This functions as a nice "twist" mentioned in the earlier mario video.
Concept 1: This video talks about how megaman 11 mixes and matches which mechanics are introduced to create variety and how they fine tune the pacing in which they are introduced
application 1:
This is already done organically within ashes through letting players choose which enemies they want to engage in the open world, but it could also apply within boss phases, by ensuring there is always a variety in what the game is teaching the player to avoid things feeling too repetitive
Concept 2: The Megaman 11 analysis video also talks about how it uses the level to create new challenges and ways of interacting with specific mechanics, which could definitely apply to encounter design in the world
Application 2:
This applies to using the environmental layouts of an encounter to further twist how the player interacts with the mechanics on offer.
The value of this is that it works as an additional tool for adding complexity for a given mechanic when appropriate. This is another means of providing a twist on existing mechanics for ramping up challenge and variety, which could be useful for encounter design.
E) This video discusses how you can properly take mechanics that were already introduced and taught, and then combine them for more complexity and challenge.
Application: This could apply to more complex phases, once the player demonstrates mastery over more simple mechanics, or chooses to risk engaging with the more complex parts of the fight. The harder boss fights/phases are a good opportunity to add/combine the more complex mechanics and/or "twists" on the mechanics that were already introduced, such as environmental complexities or other factors.
F) This video dicusses how you can use the same areas/encounters as an opportunity to display progression and mastery when backtracking to old areas and encounters
Application:
This could apply to both combat and non-combat approaches I highlighted earlier, by allowing the player to show mastery over the combat efficiency (through things like scoring/adaptive difficulty) or mastery over the environment and movement as touched on in that video, and also in the video "making movement a mechanic" I linked, and also in the following video that talks about utilizing the environment as a test of mastery and skill to overcome challenges, which could apply to boss encounters and using movement and environmental mastery to solve the problem that the boss encounter presents.
This is also done really well in the hitman series as analyzed in these videos- where it explains how your knowledge over the environment and how to best navigate it is a skill that helps you make plans and adapt to different and even unpredictable assasination targets (which act as bosses in this game). I think this is a really interesting way of having other challenging aspects to boss encounters and having more options to interact with them and solve problems within a more "sandbox" environment. I think its important to note that this is not "trial and error" that is appealing. The "repitition" is simply becoming more efficient and knowleable and increasing your skill as a player. For the "bosses" in this series, the game is testing you on your actual skill instead of rewarding you for trial and error, because it introduces input rng through the unpredictable "elusive targets" (bosses), which means you have to master the underlying systems to be able to efficiently react and deal with their unpredictable behaviors, rather than just repeating the mission over and over again until you beat it.
G) On top of scoring and metrics that measure your combat efficiency, I think its interesting to have systems that can reward how fast you can succeed at something, which could be interesting for boss encounters.
A good way of implementing this is discussed in this video, and could apply to scoring/metrics used for boss encounters
2. Unique mechanics are discovered, rather than told
- I like the idea of using your own reasoning and lore knowledge to find a unique interaction with a boss. To steal Azherae's example, its interesting to come to the conclusion that if you are fighting a giant eye and you go in circles, that the eye will become dizzy. These are really fun and immersive discoveries during an encounter that give personality, depth, and variety to bosses all in one package, on top of being a consistent way of rewarding player's deductive reasoning skills and an opportunity for rewarding lore knowledge.
- This goes back to my points in the "lore characters" discussion, about
A) telling stories through systems
B- rewarding in-game observations and logic/reasoning
C) experiential story telling, instead of telling, whenever possible.
3. Lore character discussion
- To piggy back on my last point, my post in the "lore character" dev discussion would be very relevant to my feedback for boss mechanics, so please revisit that post as part of my feedback for this topic. My post talked in detail about the following relevant topics:
- playstyle and role expression
-invisible choices and ways of interacting with bosses
- knowledge based gameplay when interacring with bosses
- using bosses as a navigational tool
- customizable and emergent experiences with bosses
- making sure boss designs are cohesive with the worldbuilding
- using bosses for personalized story telling with consequences
- moral expression and role play with bosses
- designing bosses to tell stories experientially and in an immersive way by showing the narrative instead of telling it
- ensuring bosses have interesting story to them
- ensuring bosses have complexity as characters and in hiw they interact with the player and the world around them
- ensuring they are believable
- ensuring they are dynamic and reactive
- Using bosses as an immersive tool for other purposes
- ensuring their rewards are relevant and satisfying
example:
Sorry for the spoiler but, a good example of telling a story with the mechanics during a boss encounter is the fight "Gastropolis" at 50:27 in this video
I recommend reading the dialogue before the fight for context. Basically, Crosscode is set within an MMO setting and for gastropolis fight, this is actually a program spawned by the antagonist, and is supposed to be invincible.
Luckily you have a hacker on your side, and he is able to even the playing field by spawning power ups you can pick up during the fight. This was such a brilliant moment in the game because you actually get to experience the story of being helpless against an invincible boss, and then experience the character giving you power ups through actual in-game mechanics you have to utilize, which makes for a very immersive and emotional moment of triumph, which I thought was a great story telling moment.
Topic 5- Solo vs group play
I also like the idea for skilled players to be able to defeat the boss even if they have teammates that aren't pulling their weight. You should be able to carry your group as a good player, and account for their mistakes if you are good enough (even if it isn't the most efficient way of playing). That is partly why I dont care for mechanics that rigidly force teamwork, rather than simply rewarding it through softer rewards like being more efficient as a group, having less risk, or having that group play allow you to comple the content in a faster manner for a better score or to trigger more challenging versions of the fight. In reality I think it can still be fun to play support and have to be aware of what is going on, and be proactive in setting yourself up to be able to support your teammates, while also trying to survive, even if that doesn't necessarily result in actually healing your group members 24/7. Thus I think it could still be fun to play support during boss fights alongside very skilled teammates who can avoid all damage. I also think that the content should be challenging enough for skilled players that its unlikely your group can consistently do "no damage runs" on a boss, thus it likely won't happen much and the support will still actually have healing to do throughout the fight most of the time, even if it is theoretically possible to take no damage.
Topic 6- Risk
I like when there is risks both inside and outside of the battle that correlate with each other (this is already a thing through things like having a risk of the boss encounter being interrupted by open world pvp)- I like these kinds of things that make the bosses actually feel a part of the world itself, rather than an isolated experience.
-I also like when there is an organic reason or motivation to kill the boss (like the boss actively destroying trees that we could use as resource)
Topic 7- Music
I think music itself is an underated element that can be better wielded as a mechanic in modern games, to add to every aspect of the experience. This includes giving boss encounters more personality and making them more fun and immersive experiences.
Some very interesting and dynamic uses of music are explored in these videos
As discussed in these videos, Nintendo mastered this kind of design, which creates a very immersive, addicting, and rewarding experience when done right. I find it really interesting to use music to both teach, and reward more skilled gameplay, in a dynamic way. This shows how music can be utilized much better in modern design with some creativity, which could make for an incredible experience if handled well, due to the intrinsic value of music.
Topic 8- Pacing
I think boss encounters should be high intensity and fast paced.
As some others have mentioned, I don't enjoy being encouraged to wait around just for the sake of it. Its fine if mixing up timings is an important part of the gameplay to stay unpredictable and bait out mechanics, because this is more about delaying actions, which is intentional, deliberate, and requires you to be engaged- as opposed to having to wait around for long periods time for of invulnerability phazes to end, without substituting that time with something equally as engaging, which is bad boss design imo.
Topic 9- Game examples:
Here are just a few games that have some of the different elements of what I talked about. Obviously there aren't really any flawless examples that implement everything at once and execute perfectly, but these are some games with fun combat and encounters nonetheless.
1. shadow of the colossus-
- epic scale
- highly immersive
2. dragons dogma-
- climbing/grappling mechanics
- very interactive boss fights
- variety of fighting styles supported and challenged
3. monster hunter-
- strategic elements (like targeting specific limbs)
- different types of non-combat playstyles supported (like gathering resources during boss fights)
- also has a variety of combat styles that can be used
4. Crosscode-
- emphasis on distance control, positioning, and timing throughout the encounters
- Includes some boss encounters with adaptive A.I. that change strategies to counter the player's (like the Apollo fights)
- certain bosses encourage the use of the full combat system and class kit, with varying weaknesses to encourage different fighting styles.
- certain bosses do good at layering extra unique boss mechanics over top the base combat, while others can feel slightly more restrictive due to their very specific mechanical weaknesses or puzzle-like solutions, making the fight feel slightly more "one-dimensional"
Here are a few fights in the base game that I found especially fun. Its important to note these fights are done by a pro, so it makes it look far easier that it actually is because of his precision in how he is countering their behaviors.
what made sephisloth fun 1:05:15
- I think its fun because he is attacking from different angles, making you have to mix up how you dodge, while simultaneously keeping you boxed in, making you careful about how to dodge. This risk of going into the hazard while also trying to adapt and react to the angles on the fly, was very engaging
what made twighlight master fun (1:20:29)
- man this was one of my favorite boss fights of all time, super fun. Its so engaging and fluid because of how mobile the boss is, and how is constantly dodging and chasing you down. His attacks also force you to use a lot of tools in your combat kit, which makes for a really fun experience.
what made guard biston 1 (33:01) and guard biston 2 (34:31) fun
- I think this Boss battle was super fun to me because your entire kit is actually effective against him, there aren't any lame immunities or limitations when he is fighting you, so you can use your full kit, and there actually is reason to do so because he is chasing you around and constantly repositioning and attacking from different ranges, so you are encouraged to counter those actions in different ways using different abilities in your kit.
What made peng king fun (18:26)
- The player in this video finished fast and made this look easy. But this one was a lot of fun in a longer fight. I think that is because you have a lot of room to move around and use your mobility skills, and you are constantly having to judge the angles that you should dash, when to retreat, when to side-step, and when to dash through the enemies, as they chase you from different angles and you slide around the ice.
what made hologram frobbit fun (36:24)
- This fight was also very fun and one of my favorite. I think that is because there are so many considerations during a longer version of this fight. You have to use your full kit to deal with all the abilities being thrown at you and the constant movement, while also having to adapt strategies when this boss changes elemental usage, while also using line-of-sight and angles to your advantage by blocking his abilities while also ricocheting your own off of walls and into him. This was very fun trying to be efficient and optimize these different tactics.
Here are a few fights in the DLC that I found especially fun
what made illegal coordinator fun (21:29)
I think this battle was interesting because you had to manage an extra mechanic on top of your normal combat strategy. You still have to use your abilities to take out enemies and protect yourself, but you also have to protect the turret and manage its usage to your own advantage. I think this extra layer added to the experience rather than detracting from it, and made it a unique encounter.
what made hillcart fun (48:50)
I think this one was fun because you have to do some extra platforming during the fight, this also adds risk due to the hazard you are jumping over, and this makes it fun trying ti string together you movements as you dodge and move car to car, while also trying to manage your jumps and chain everything together to keep your traversal fluid.
what made gynthar fun (1:02:17)
I think this one was fun for similar reasons to hologram frobbit, it truly tests your mastery over all the elements and your abilities, and also your ability to adapt your strategy in response to the boss adapting his.
Here are a few fights in the post-game that I found especially fun
What made apollo fun (0:00) (beginning of video)
- This one is really fun because it emulates a pvp match where the enemy is pretty much on the same playing field in terms of options they have available. This is really interesting because of the balanced counterplay going on. This is enhanced by the enemy's ability to adapt and adjust to your tactics, making that counterplay even more evident, which was fun
what made shizuka fun (2:30)
This one is fun for the same reason as Apollo, but you get some variety because of this character using a different fighting style
what made Lily fun (5:35)
Same reasoning as what made shizuka's fun. This one is also a bit more difficult and had some more stuff going on in the fight.
5. Sekiro-
- intamacy and fluidity in the encounters
- very challenging and intense
6. Final fantasy 16 (upcoming)-
This game isn't out yet, but has released a demo, and several gameplay showcases, and there has been a lot of player feedback from testers.
- From what was seen and heard so far, it has been mostly positive in regards to the boss encounters and combat
- The boss fights look very engaging and epic
- combat looks engaging and similar enough to AOC for comparison
- This will be a game to keep your eye on, being that it has a Iot of action and fantasy elements that AOC could draw from
7. A couple others that have fun elements in their bosses and combat are Nioh 2, Nier automata, Kingdom hearts, devil may cry, Scarlet Nexus, and Bayonetta
I have played most mmo's since EQ and my favorite and most memorable are the fights in ff14 now I know they wouldn't work if just copied into this game but the important take always that make them so good is clear attacks you know if your standing in bad or not and the need to pay attention to the fight not stand still and mash fireball all day.
Another thought based on that experience: Ideal mmorpg boss fights should allow players to cover for each other's mistakes, instead of requiring the whole party to achieve perfection. The former would likely promote teamwork and friendship between players (e.g. Thx for saving my ass bro!), while the later would likely promote nothing but finger pointing, anger, and stress/tension. (e.g. why did YOU keep dying to that aoe??? -50 dkp!!!)
This is 100% true and battles showing off teamwork vs ones that show off weakness directly effects the level of toxicity in the community it might seem small but it can be vitally important if you don't want things to turn out like LoL where you cant join a match without someone yelling at someone. I was also very concerned watching the boss stream with both the boss doing very high dmg to the whole raid and the healers being able to bring the whole raid back I worry any fight will come down to mainly how many and how good are you healers. as someone who has a played a lot of healing I see a situation where friends will not be able to play with each other at all if the healer friend is offline making them pug one and if the healer is bad getting yelled at until they hate healing this is a cycle that after a few months can easily breed very heavy toxicity and unless every type of group member is equally important is hard to avoid.
This might be long..not really sure yet..we will see....
Boss Fights
Now, with the event of Unreal 5, the sky is pretty much the limit. Top 3 things I don't like in a boss fight
1. I can't stand for a boss just to be sitting there like a limp piñata, oblivious to the 40 people right in front of him. (Are all bosses blind and deaf?) Surely, you can spruce up the encounter with some nifty tricks the boss has learned over the year(s) he's been in his/her lair. i.e. smell, hearing, or have one of the lacky's of the boss alert him/her.
2. Telegraphing. I'm really not a fan of the circles on the ground letting the players know don't stand there...how would they know? Is the boss going to tell you, "Hey, I'm dropping acid bombs in these spots...get out of the way!"
3. Another thing that irks me is the boss never changes his fight tactics...just does the same ole same ole the entire fight. Boringgggg!
I'm often perplexed as to why everyone is so afraid of making a boss run away from a fight...is the boss just that stupid, or is it a damn it, I'm going to fight to the death! There are some really cool things you could do with this. Have the boss run away when it hits a certain percentage. If the boss makes it to point A it eats some stuff or does something to regain massive amounts of health back and now it's got new tactics. Then flies or runs away again to another point. Want to make it truly epic? Have the boss run away and this chase spans across multiple zones. A true fight that is an adventure all unto itself!
IDEAS
With Unreal5 we've seen the mist rolling in across the land...why not ramp that up to 11. Make it so no one can see hardly anything..have the boss taunt the party/raid while this fog is up. Same thing can be said with a dragon's wing buffet....let it blow a billowing cloud of dirt and debris..total screen fog.
Why not have a boss hide from a party/raid? The raid walks into the big room and its empty....or so it seems. Boss starts taunting the party/raid and finally reveals himself. He could come from up above, a side entrance, or break through the floor. Heck, the whole room could be smoky and if the boss had wings he could be flying overhead just waiting to make it's best strike to start the fight.
Why not give the boss the ability to turn invisible during stages of the fight? Or it be invisible when you walk in and the wizard(utility skill) is the only one who can detect it. Or it be invisible and walking around the room or doing something besides just sitting there...or it turn invisible as soon as the party enters the encounter area.
Why not give the boss the ability to clone itself during or at the start of the raid/encounter? The real boss could be chosen at random so no fight is exactly the same. i.e. the real boss is always the far right one standing towards the entrance way. Let it be random so it could be anyone of them.
Why not have the boss chase the party/raid through the dungeon...but you don't know it's actually forcing you to it's lair?
Backtracking back to multiple copies of the boss, how about the boss breaks up into several copies of itself and the party/raid has to fight each of them...once a certain number of copies is killed it melds back together and then fights, but it's health is ratio'd down because of the copies the raid/party killed.
These are just some. I'm pasting an old post I wrote a year or two ago, but editing it now that Unreal5 is out and tailored more to the program's strengths.
1. A boss fight to me should be epic. You've endured the dungeon or wild and it's minions to get to said boss, and now it's time to grit your teeth and put all your skills to the test. (I'm going to use a dragon as the example because I think we all associate a dragon with the big bad guy in a true fantasy mmo. That is not to say there are other type of nasties as bosses, I'm just using a dragon for this one.) A side note, I don't know if dragons in Ashes are like most table top rpg's as in they can talk and cast magic, but for this scenario I will assume they can do both.
Phase 1. The Lair
For one, since Ashes is implementing archetype skills, there should be traps all over the place, especially at the entrance to the boss. That is taking for granted the boss isn't stupid and it hears all the fighting going on in the hallways or caverns leading up to it. (which i hope is the case) The traps could be of any type, spike traps, flame traps, darts, etc. IT will give the rogue a hearty workout for sure and possibly the ranger.
But as soon as the first party member steps into the lair the dragon takes flight and will do a few strafing runs on the entrance. The whole raid will have to time it to run to a relatively safe space while the dragon is circling above or get cooked. While the dragon is flying he will taunt the party, calling them insects, vermin, or even fool hardy wannabe thieves, etc
Once in the room you notice the cavern is immense and the ceiling is barely visible, you also see a huge spire in the center of the room, which is a great distance away, with a stair case that is carved on the side of the spire that leads up to the top. You also see magical auras flashing from atop the spire and you hear booming chants coming from the top.. Great, he has lackeys to help him, but you do know the top of the spire is where you need to go. The raid sets off for the spire as the dragon continues to make strafing runs at the raid, and also uses it's massive weight and fire to loose huge stalactites from the ceiling that will fall down onto the raid, which are now fiery molten pieces of stone. A very tedious cat and mouse game ensues until the raid reaches the spire. Luckily, there are a few stalagmites scattered across the floor to hide behind while the dragon unleashes holy hell fire upon the raid.
Phase 2. The Spire
The raid has made it to spire, it's immense, a LOT bigger than you first thought. The spire ascends at least 100 feet up if not more, and the steps aren't very wide. A fall from the top would be certain death, and even halfway up a fall would be deadly. The journey up is not without peril. The dragon circles the spire breathing fire on the raid, and in once instance the dragon hovers before the raid and unleashes a HUGE breath of fire, engulfing a huge section of the stairs. If you are unlucky enough to be caught in it it will be certain death. To make matters worse the dragon tail slaps the spire and you have to be butted up to the spire wall or be knocked prone or off the side.
After a tedious climb you make it to the top to find four wizards, hands and arms moving, voices booming. What spell or ritual they are attempting to cast is unknown but you know it's best to stop them. A very hard fight ensues and to make matter worse the dragon continues to fly overhead and breath fire onto the raid. The wizards employ all kinds of tactics to the fight even levitating off and away from the spire to rain spells of mass destruction onto the raid. One notable spell is a control person spell all wizards use, and it is discernible by the length of the time taking to cast the spell, those unlucky enough not to stop this spell will be controlled and walked off the spire top and fall to certain death.
The fight is long and tedious, but you have managed to kill all four of the wizards and stopped whatever spell/ritual they were attempting atop the spire, but as the last wizard dies the dragon becomes enraged and finally lands onto the top of the spire.
Phase 3. The Dragon
The dragon lands and then with it's huge wings, wing buffets the raid hoping to knock some of them off the edge, but all will be knocked prone. if you are knocked prone the massive wind from the dragon's wings push you back 10-15 feet, hopefully you aren't at the edge of the spire. A mighty wall of dirt and debris hangs in the air making visibility next to 0. The dragon takes off again and does one last staffing run on the party.
The fight is a nasty one, with it's breath weapon and tail slaps, bites, and claws. The dragon takes flight twice during the fight and lands repeating the wing buffet on the raid. As a last ditch effort the dragon polymorphs into a giant humanoid type creature and begins casting spells at the party. Numerous types of spells are employed against the raid, the control person, silence, mass control, slow, and the most powerful, the ray of death, which is a thin dark violet beam that will dot the player and quickly kill the player if not healed right away.
The dragon not being stupid knows it's losing the fight and takes to the air once again, hoping it will end the raid with it's fiery breath. While hovering above the raid, the raid has to burn him down to kill him, otherwise the dragon will self heal itself x number of heath and the process will start all over again beginning with phase two of the dragon fight. If the party does manage to bring him down the dragon falls from the sky engulfed in flames bellowing, "You will never find my hoard!!!!"
Phase 4. The Hoard
The old dragon is a smart one, it has hidden its hoard in a secret chamber deep underground in the cavern and yes, its trapped and spell warded. Time to use those archetype abilities to find it! The raid finally diffuses the traps and breaks the ward on the treasure. A hard day, but a great day to be an adventurer!
Fight Scenario Style 2.
This is the same until it reaches the end of Phase 3.
The dragon knows its losing and in a last ditch effort dives at the spire wing buffeting the raid, there is a 50/50 chance you get knocked down. If you are not knocked down the dragon then grabs two people at random of the raid and takes flight to its true lair.
The raid watches as the dragon seems to fly through a wall and vanishes. The raid will have to go to the said entrance, again trapped and magically warded. Once the traps are disabled and wards broken down by the rogues, ranger, and wizard the party enters the tunnel and heads to the true lair. There could also be a another trap as the raid enters the lair where the cleric has to dispel a deadly mist that permeates the ground. The two captives are off in a wall magically held. Once the fight ensues the captives magical hold is broken.
The fight ensues in the lair pretty much like above in scenario 1 with the dragon polymorphed into a humanoid dragon type creature with the same spells and actions. Before the fight begins the dragon heals itself to 1/4 health. As the fight is nearing its end the dragon flees back up the hallway and takes the shape of the dragon as it flies out of the entrance. It circles and then hovers in front of the raid, this is the time for the raid to burn it down, if it doesn't the dragon flies back to the spire, heals itself and the fight ensues. If the party burns it down the dragon falls cursing the raid with it's final breath.
ok, yeah, this is long enough. I hope Ashes brings some of these to light in the game. We all want something new and exciting, but we also want a REAL challenge. Make us earn it!
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Once in a while, there is a game that shows an imagination and creativity as a cut above the rest.
Whilst not an MMORPG, Bramble: The Mountain King shows some fantastic environments, atmospheric effects, emotive sounds, highly creative bosses and pve interactions worthy of mention!
Hello everyone, I think the boss looks good the mechanics at first looked a bit much for the low-level boss but I think after a few fights would be much easier and it's not big of a deal. Since we have already different seasons and the environment is changing depending on the season can bosses and loot change as well and with that the mechanics of the boss itself? That will make bosses more challenging and unique for the current season. I like a good cinematic before the boss fight but I know that kind of cinematics are quite expensive but they also hype people a lot. They can also do different styles of boss depending on day and night.
i think that in your heads, you need to break things down into 3 types of bosses, and make adjustments from there.
1 group bosses, pve only- this is where you go crazy with the mechanics. all the stuff the non pvp focused people want, they should get here. im thinking of it like the 7 signs competition from lineage2: ie instanced, so no pvp to disturb the mechanics, and reliable. for rewards, you want to time it so that people who grind these on the regular are able to get decently geared through crafting their drops. not too many full drops here, since its so easy to access and garuntee a kill. you could do something like maplestory even, a good natured pve race/competition thing between 2 arbitrary groups. go nuts here, as long as its in its own cordoned off area, both for the pve'ers safety, and the pvpers sanity.
1 group bosses, baby pvp- smaller, open world bosses that are relatively easily accessable, and have simpler mechanics relative to the pve only ones, but are maybe a bit more interesting than the big league guys. you want these ones to be easily accessable, but with a bit of effort required to get to them. maybe a 2-3 minute walk from the town. these guys shouldnt be instantly respawning, but you want enough of them that people who log on for 1-3 hours always has a boss to hunt and fight in their level range and area. if you have enough bosses, or the respawn timers are low enough, then thisll work awesomely. the goal of this type of boss is to give content for groups to form around, since groups are the backbones of pvp and clans and allys and internet drama, which we all love. making this accessable to smaller guilds and casuals without completely neutering the pvp aspect is how you nuture the game to grow and live forever. for rewards, you want them to give the same access to the higher teir stuff in the game, but not too much of it. ideally, itd take 1 constant party the same amount of time or slightly less to gear their party from these bosses as it takes for a big clan to gear their whole clan and then some by doing the world bosses.
big boi pvp: i know for a fact that steven knows about baium, ant queen, core, and anthras from lineage 2. i think the respawn timer and the randomness where insane, but all the other aspects of that boss system where amazing. lineage 2 understood that the appeal of a world boss isnt in killing it, the appeal is in killing other alliances trying to get the drops for themselves. for rewards, everyone who shows up needs to be getting SOMETHING from the game. dont let crappy guild leaders have all the power. thats how drama starts, and not the good drama, the kind that makes people want to quit the game. guild leader should get the big stuff, but showing up and being on the winning side should benefit you personally in some way.
optional: unique/wandering- some of the troll suggestions in the office hours like "make a boss that gives only good benefits to the node its in and doesnt harm anyone, but its easy to kill and has minimal rewards" is a good thing to have, just not in excess. or bosses that randomly spawn in nodes and have timers that make the environment take more and more damage over time until they are killed. great stuff for causing risk reward scenarios, and by extension a good game. i just dont think that should be every boss. just some of them, for flavor.
Dev Discussion - Boss Mechanics
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs? Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
I don't like when the entire party is destroyed by a single area damage hit.
I like when bosses have adds and if they can run and hide or use terrain to their advantage.
Overconfident bosses who fight the same way until they die are boring.
A lot of mechanics in FFXIV are just complicated dodging and soaking mechanics, and those can be a lot of fun (requiring tight movement and coordination with the party). But as a healer I enjoyed this mechanic (Fountain of Fire, from a Savage raid last year) in particular, because it changed up the formula a little for healers:
They get split up to either side of the arena, where only a few AoE heals will be able to reach across. Then they have to soak 4 pools of fire that do 99% of their HP as damage each. (That would be a ridiculous amount of damage to heal even if they were stacked together.) To deal with that, they are given a massive healing buff. Wise use of cooldowns and shields, especially the few that will reach both healers, would allow them to survive without wasting any GCDs (a common optimization goal for FFXIV). Otherwise they just spam single-target heals on themselves and enjoy the near-invincibility.
It's not a crazy complex mechanic (unlike a bunch of Ultimate raids I could have mentioned), but I liked it just because it made me think about my healing tools in a different way for once. Also getting to see those humongous shields on the party list is always cool.
Dev Discussion - Boss Mechanics
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs? Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
I dislike tank and spank boss fights that are too easy and have too few or no mechanics. My favorite boss mechanics are ones that are both unique and challenging, ones that require group coordination and planning. It's fine to take inspiration from other games, but don't feel like you are limited to making mechanics that have been done already. I find that boss fights in games become boring when they reuse the same mechanics over and over. Use mechanics/abilities that fit the theme of the dungeon and background of the character, but don't be hesitant to make them challenging, especially at higher levels. Use as much variety for boss encounters as you would for player's class abilities.
Personal high points for PVE bosses:
Lost Ark Dungeons, in particular Hall of the Twisted Warlord. The bosses are quick and the gimmick is binary and multi-staged; there is a very low chance that you have no idea what is going on but you still clear it. Once you know what you're doing, its a breeze almost every time. It makes you feel like you actually leveled up AS A PERSON for learning the dance and performing it correctly.
Wow Castle Nathria: I didn't play WOW between WOTLK and SL so I don't know how raid mechanics evolved, but I found Nathria to be very fun. Most bosses had different types of mechanics (altho several of them did have tank swap requirements) that required various positioning around the fight by most roles, as well as different tests for each role... varying dps windows, spikes to heal up or mitigate, CC to apply, etc. In particular, the Lady Darkvein fight stands out as a time when even the DPS (ranged AND melee sometimes) has to get their head out of their ass and do the mechanic (catch vials), and The Council forces DPS players to play the fight and trigger the dance at the right time instead of topping the chart through AOE. and they also had to help with interruption on the caster guy.
In general, bosses should require mechanics from all parties, aside from "deal damage, take damage, and heal damage." When that's the only thing going on, every boss is the same. Each player should need to do something out of the ordinary for bossing at some point in the fight.... move a certain way, blow cooldowns when normally that wouldn't be needed, target certain entities other than the boss, kite certain entities more than normal, dodge red zones, etc.
Although a slight tangent, I think boss mechanics with "opt in hard modes" is a great idea that was well executed in Castle Nathria. You can do the boss the normal way, or you can make it harder by intentionally limiting yourself in the way that you complete the encounter.
What are your favorite and least favorite boss mechanics for small and large group content in MMORPGs? Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
Memorable Fights:
To me the fights that were the most memorable were always those where one mistake from one player would cause a wipe. I do know though that most people hate these xD
But yea generally the most difficult fights are the most memorable for me.
Mechanics I don't like:
✦ So I wouldn't really say I hate this one, but I find it annoying: DPS checks with no indication of how much damage has to be dealt.
✦ Time limitations on boss fights without a mechanic causing it. For example a timer of 5min b4 the boss becomes unkillable/causes a wiping one shot wave, always feels to me like the devs didn't have enough ideas to make the fight actually interesting. I don't mind a fight going for 10m + as long as it's not boring. Some examples of a mechanic causing the time limitation would be something like the area getting smaller or objects getting destroyed one by one which you also need as cover to avoid one shot boss skills and you can potentially even reduce the time you have by accidently having the boss destroy more objects. I also do not mind having a time limitation for something like an enrage phase at the last 5% HP.
✦ Having to kick the boss, but there is no 100% chance to kick the boss with the kick skill is so annoying to me. Just stupid RNG without meaning.
✦ Damage immunity phases that just feel like devs trying to prolong play time without having to create actual content
Mechanics I like:
✦ One shot lasers circling around the boss (preferably in combination with iframe dodging)
✦ Tanks needing to keep the boss in one spot. Best way I've seen this done was in TERA where you had active blocking by the tank and blocking attacks would cause the boss to not move forward during his attacks, this also made tank gameplay much more interesting as not hitting a block could get very dangerous very quickly.
✦ In combination with the one above: mechanics that depend on the boss's position. For example a laser circling once around the boss always starting at the boss's right side. This works with sooo many mechanics and adds so much importance to the player positioning. (sometimes the block thing mentioned above didn't work so the tank was just standing with their back against a wall instead)
✦ Well done DPS checks where the party has to for example destroy x pillars (a little like the mushrooms you had for the cyclops, but instead causing a wipe if not destroyed)
✦ Having to use certain skills at the right second / timing certain skills. To be more exact, stuff like: having a 5s window to purge a buff off the boss, having to group up to instantly cleanse the group from an incoming debuff or to be able to heal the group, kicking the boss to prevent certain attacks...
✦ Grouping up behind the tank to block/reduce incoming damage for everyone
✦ Damage splitting AOEs. Example: locked AOE circle on the tank -> at least 3 players have to jump in as well because the damage is getting split and only 1-3 players would die if not enough players join to split the incoming damage.
✦ Switching Melee/Donut AOEs. Having to move because of the boss casting AOEs that are for example first a melee one around him -> players have to move away from boss, then a range one -> players have to get close to the boss. These ones can be simple but can also get difficult/complex with adding more rings/shapes or a memory game or anything (endless possibilities!)
✦ Secondary aggro causing the boss to cast an attack when certain player actions are performed. Such as the boss casting a laser at a support using a res (this of course needs a cooldown - so as a support you would have to first interrupt your cast to successfully dodge the laser before being able to res without getting killed themselves. This imo makes fights more dynamic and add a little almost mini game like feeling to some aspects of the gameplay)
✦ Adds can be a good addition to a fight in many different ways. Some that I know and like are:
- Adds that need to be kited until the fight is over or until they despawn
- Adds that need to be killed quickly because otherwise they cause dmg/a debuff/heal the boss or have a different kind of negative impact
- Adds that need to be killed at the right moment to cause a positive effect such as a cleanse to players nearby, purging the boss or granting heal to the players during a phase where they cannot be healed by the supports
✦ Complicated (mini) games integrated into the fight. A quick simple example would be a little color game where the color of a gem rotates between 3 colors as soon as it gets hit by a certain boss attack, a second gem above the boss arena has a changing color after a certain amount of time and as the boss hits the next phase you need to match the color of the gem on the ground to the one above the arena because otherwise there will either be a wipe or the boss gains a strong buff or something else, endless posibilities for these kinds of mechanics as well.
✦ I could keep going with more detailed mechanics for hours haha but they basically are all somewhat the same when it comes down to what they mean for gameplay - learning the boss, attacks that need team play and coordination, movement, positioning, timing, shot calls and that are dangerous enough that you have to play them. I actually found some concepts I made last year that are a pretty good example of what I'm talking about so I'm just gonna add them at the end
Mechanics for each role:
As already mentioned in some of the mechanics listed above, something for each of the 3 roles is something I greatly enjoy and in my opinion makes the roles individually feel more immersive and important.
Mechanics that require specific tank actions, such as blocking special attacks for the group or turning the boss in the right direction etc
Mechanics for supporters like mob kiting, saving team mates with a dedicated skill such as position switch or pull, or purging the boss etc
And those for DPS like objective that needs to be destroyed in time, DPS checks or saving team mates locked in a cage etc
Reading the Boss:
Now this is not really a boss mechanic rather a PvE mechanic/gameplay
But it's one of the most important and fun things for me in PvE so I think this might be the right moment to mention this
If the boss has indicator animations before attacks makes it possible for the player to learn the boss's attacks, patterns and mechanics even for randomized attack patterns
I'm going to make two examples (TERA again lol)
One boss had 2 key machanics that both had you get one shotted if messed up
At the start of both he would fly up in the air but there was a major difference
For the first mechanic he would drop down again afterwards and kill everything within a certain range = players have to get away from him as soon as he flies up
For the second one he would create a cage with a movement mini game inside, everythone outside the cage would get a one shot = players had to get near to the boss so they are inside the cage
Now to tell what mechanic would happen you had to pay attention to the flying up animation, for one he would fly up straight, for the other one he would spin while flying
So this means at least one person had to learn how to read the boss and pay attention to him all the time in order for the group to not mess up the mechanics and wipe
The second example was for his attack patterns
The boss had one sword in each hand that he would slam on the ground to hit the tank
Depending on the attack pattern of these hits he would do a stronger attack after a few hits, so left-right-left caused a different stronger attack than right-left-right
I always loved this kind of gameplay aspect since it didn't only make PvE more immersive and difficult but it also provided lots of motivation to do the boss again and again to learn to read it and get better at the boss fight every time
This post is already pretty long so I will stop now but yea, I hope I could get my thoughts explained well and hope this kind of detailed feedback helps
Comments
Least Favourite: Simple boring DPS-fest. There were a load of bosses in ESO that were: "Do X-amount of Damage in X-seconds, or the whole raid group wipes", and they were the most boring to fight.
That's such a good suggestion
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You lead the boss who can do a great amount of damages on another one and imagine being running for your life because the boss is following you because you smell like meat or you stole his eggs or idk and then the fight of the 2 bosses until our boss lose 15% hp the other leaves and come back to his place destroying everything on his way like the cyclops is destroying the trees it would make the bosses more "human" with their own personality. you see a dragon in the sky you know people are doig a boss and used that dragon to do damages
In most mmorpgs the bosses have a fixed rotation which makes it extremely boring in the long run as you know your rotation off by heart by the end. I would like to see randomness in the mechanics that the boss uses to always keep you on your toes. This would change the boss fight from memorising to actually learning the fight to be ready for whatever mechanic happens.
Minimisation of role based mechanics:
It was said before in this discussion, but I would like to see mechanics not be tied to a specific role, e.g. tank has to do this mechanic as anyone else would die, rather i would like to see the mechanic being solved by a player with higher defence/hp. Of course, there should still be role based mechanics that no other role can do. I've seen this too many times in FF, where the party wipes because a specific mechanic target is dead and players can't adjust the mechanic anymore as they are not used to changes. Similarly to the last point, players would have to learn the fight rather than being used to someone always doing the mechanic for them.
If the randomness is too difficult for world bosses, this could definitely be used for closed arena/raid style bosses or even higher difficulty raids.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55673/lets-theoryraid-3-putting-heads-together-hydra-illuyankas-ffxi-vs-tiamat-onigiri/p1
If you want to have even more discussions around bosses, be sure to check that out!
We appreciate all of you that provide us with your thoughts and opinions, which help us as we make the best possible MMORPG that we can! ^_^
Tank and Spank: Some bosses in Gunbad followed the traditional tank and spank mechanic, where tanks held aggro and absorbed damage while the rest of the group focused on dealing damage. These encounters often required tanks to manage threat and positioning effectively. Sometimes tank and spank fights are a nice relief between harder fights.
Adds and Minions: Certain boss fights in Gunbad involved the summoning of additional enemies or minions by the bosses. Players needed to quickly handle these adds to prevent them from overwhelming the group or providing additional support to the boss.
Telegraphed Abilities: Bosses in Gunbad had telegraphed abilities, where they displayed visual indicators or animations that indicated the area of effect for their attacks. Players needed to be aware of these cues and move out of the way to avoid taking significant damage.
Environmental Hazards: Some boss encounters in Gunbad incorporated environmental hazards that players had to navigate or manage. This included avoiding traps, standing in safe zones, or dealing with hazardous terrain during the fight.
Mechanics Based on Roles: Gunbad boss fights required specific roles to perform certain tasks. For example, healers needed to cleanse debuffs or dispel harmful effects, tanks needed to taunt or handle specific adds, and damage dealers needed to interrupt or prioritize certain targets.
Phase Transitions: Certain bosses in Gunbad had multiple phases, each with different mechanics and challenges. These transitions occurred when the boss reached a certain health threshold or triggered specific events. Players had to adapt their strategies and tactics accordingly to succeed.
Unique Boss Abilities: Each boss in Gunbad had its own unique set of abilities and mechanics. Some bosses had powerful area-of-effect attacks, summoned reinforcements, applied debuffs, or required players to perform specific actions to counter their abilities.
Shield effects you need to counter/play around. Having to time your burst during windows when the boss's defences are down, preferably where you lose if you waste all your cooldowns & mana during the invulnerable phases (so if you don't kill the boss within its first 5-7 vulnerable windows, or deal too much damage during the invulnerable phases, it gets too strong and wipes your party, or heals, or resets its encounter or something.)
I've played games with world bosses like that, and while it does cause some frustration, I personally thrive in the need to coordinate large groups of people, and I think it's a good thing that some encounters will fail because of lacking coordination. Then you just have to come back at a later time, with a different crowd, or when certain people don't happen to be around. That's part of the challenge.
Regarding dungeon bosses?
Here it really depends on the dungeon experience overall for me, and while I realise that it's a little obnoxious, I have to point back to my comment on dungeon design here. If you make me enter a dungeon for 30-60 minutes just to "do a quest" and "kill mobs" for 50 minutes and then do kill a boss for 10, I'd much rather be farming mobs on the overland map (and in fact I'd want the game to encourage me to do that and socialise outside of the instance instead, and reduce the dungeon to a quick boss rush!), and the boss mechanics won't salvage it for me.
If the dungeon mechanics overall are intriguing and making it worth to enter an instance/linear progression zone, I enjoy any boss design you come up with.
Then you can make it as challenging as you like, from extremely complex mechanics that require perfect preparation and execution, to forgiving battles where you only die if your party messes up the basic task of its roles.
But it really hinges on that foundation that I'm not coming into it exhausted after unoptimal, linear, seemingly optional/pointless grinding.
Conclusion
Combine unique gimmicks like that with high damage threat like we've seen on the Cyclops (High AoE threat to keep up the challenge and heavy punishment when you disrespect the more obvious mechanics, even on easier bosses), and some mechanics that require certain types of abilities (e.g. cleanses, certain damage types, certain resistance types, that typical stuff), and I'm happy.
And don't disclose all bosses' mechanics in quests or leave them unannounced. Hide the information about some of the difficult, obscure ones in books or something, for the community to find in a corner of a library.
I've played too many games in my lifetime, therefor, I'll try not to use any as examples but instead give this a clean look about and try to give meaning to the title of my post.
Let's use the dragon you've displayed as an example for my thoughts today. With any given MMORPG or RPGX style games, the enemies/monsters are usually scripted and have a radius encompassing they're anchors as to when they'll react once encroached upon... but let's say for argument that this style of monster scripting is no longer needed as we have integrated machine learning behavioral patterns worked into the coding of each type of species encountered in Ashes of Creation. As with such, let's go back to the Dragon and utilize him/her in a PC battle encounter shall we: Our PC party shows up at the top of a craggy trail littered with broken rocks, downed trees, and big boulders. As we take in the surroundings, we notice that not only does the trail stop here, but the area is a wide canyon with sheer facing cliffs rising several meters above us on 3 sides. We know that if the dragon we now see storming out of the large conspicuous hole at the back of the canyon is ever able to box us into one of the back corners, we'll be toast!
As we begin to engage the beast it quickly thumps it's massive tail against the cliff wall and knocks small boulders down blocking access to the hole in whence it came from. The Dragon's behavior is like that of a cat as once it's health has dropped below 65% it beats it's Heavy wings and lifts from the ground, while causing many in our group to fail their stagger rolls and get wind-blasted into the ground for some mild AoE Damage. Anyone with the bad luck of being close to the edge of the wings when it decides to ascend will take more severe damage from the action taken by the Dragon. At this point the Dragon has opted for taking the "higher ground" and settles on top of one of the canyon's cliffs and starts to roar and blast fireball & dark energy-lightning ball spells while utilizing it's tail to push boulders off into the canyon to hit us with crush damages. Once enough ranged DPS has pushed it to 50% Health, the Dragon makes a distinctive wail into the sky and hordes of Komodo-Dragon style large lizards come rushing into the canyon to keep the melee DPS and secondary tank busy, however, that's not the worst problem we're facing.... this new system of "animal/monster behaviors" has triggered a group of winged offspring to come to their parent's aid, so now we have more death from the skies to deal with as aerial adders. Once the offspring have fully engaged our group, the Main Dragon spreads it's wings and "Glide-Walks" down the side of the cliff using it's massive claws to dredge up more stones and boulders, then lands dead center in the battle and spins around using it's tail to knock-back and/or drop as many of us as possible. This is only one small example of how a dragon "might" utilize it's cat-like "animal-instincts" and the environment to it's advantage and to our demise if not properly educated on it's behaviors when confronted in the wild.
I guess my answer to your question would be: If we could adopt this level of synergy in the behavioral mechanics of the Animals/Monsters/Bosses instead of relying 100% on scripted code, it would make another facet of AoC as unique and jaw-dropping as the seasonal changes planned.
I know you have oodles of talent working in those offices now, and this is just the type of thing I'd imagine they'd grin and say "oh yeah... this would be fun!" Total can-do attitudes always win the day!
Have fun Devs... it's the most important aspect of your jobs! - Nylfaen
I guess my answer to your question would be: If we could adopt this level of synergy in the behavioral mechanics of the Animals/Monsters/Bosses instead of relying 100% on scripted code, it would make another facet of AoC as unique and jaw-dropping as the seasonal changes planned.
I know you have oodles of talent working in those offices now, and this is just the type of thing I'd imagine they'd grin and say "oh yeah... this would be fun!" Total can-do attitudes always win the day!
Have fun Devs... it's the most important aspect of your jobs! - Nylfaen
I do not personally usually get excited for boss fights as its just something i do for loot in most games as well as a orchestrated dance in what seems like every MMORPG nowadays.. However i will try to think way way way back when i was a MMORPG Virgin playing Asherons Call in 99' doing boss fights before the internet was full of guides and lists of possible loot tables.
Some extremely memorable moments was when we fought as a small group a bunny boss (A literal small bunny) that hit like a literal freight train and had boss level health. It was a homage to Monty Python. And afterwards it could be turned into a wand. Think your hand in a bunnies butt while you wave a wand, or in this case bunny for casters. It was fun, shocking, and amusing. As this bunny rabidly manically ran around attacking and taking people out. You had to have enough dps to take it out before it wiped you.
Another was a boss event where a GM played Martine who is a arch-nemesis of the main good guy Asheron. Having to chase around this GM boss character as it tried to destroy the world and 100's of players from all over trying to fight him off and stop him. None-the-less it was fun chasing him around the world to confront him to take him out. I have never seen this in any other game, a GM play a Boss or world event character by hand. And i do truly hope to see it in AoC as you can actually lift the community. Fighting a fixed boss where there is a certain way to defeat them is one thing. Fighting a intelligent ever changing human player boss it a total other thing that is never easily forgotten. This boss fight has to be my most memorable by far in my 20 years of MMORPG's.
On a side-note i know this is about boss fights but perhaps a thread soon about most memorable world events would be a great idea as well.
The one part that I will keep out of the tag below that is important to know is that Karkinos is a Crab and by nature has most if not all Crab abilities and traits.
Overall the result is that normally you know what the ability the boss is using, does, because other things, often players themselves, have these abilities. What you have to deal with is 'special traits' and 'why is this combined with this other thing this is so OP we're gonna die'. Basically, they break the balance rules.
I didn't want to use any Bosses that are hard or complex only because they 'break the balance rules by Combination' because I feel it requires too much FFXI knowledge to appreciate or draw any reference from. But after thinking about it for a long time I finally found a boss that I somewhat like, where the only requirement for understanding is the TP Gauge which I can probably gloss over as a different explanation for the unfamiliar.
Karkinos is useful because it's just a big 'normal Crab'. It's enhanced, but it's not 'making a Crab, which is normally a Paladin, into a Red Mage+/Monk that summons adds(like King Arthro) which is their normal method of this sort of thing. And Crabs are simplistic mobs intended to outlast you, slow down your exp gain, or 'stall you long enough to get aggro or link from something else'.
It's just an empowered Crab, and therefore is actually empowered to do things 'better' than a Normal Crab instead of doing more things, so I can talk about it in a vacuum.
The idea of Karkinos is that he has a lot of physical defense. So you first have to figure out how you're getting around that, but attempting to solve it by just 'bringing more casters' doesn't work easily because he simply has too much HP for even a large group of powerful casters to bring him down quickly, and he hits casters very hard.
Also, since DoT sources are 'one per DoT', you would want to vary your DoT options, but otherwise you're still 'just waiting'.
When Karkinos has high HP, he uses normal Crab attacks, the ones we care about are Big Scissors which is just a relatively stronger single hit attack, and Bubble Shower, which is AoE around him and Strength Down. On normal Crabs these are just there to 'make you need a Tank' and 'slow down kills' more or less. If you fought a Crab multiple levels above you, the STR Down might be enough to help the Crab stall long enough to kill someone, but generally not.
Crabs are generally a less threatening target to a standard exp party due to their defensiveness. Nice 'introduction to group combat' enemies, and you meet them in the area where most people experienced group combat for the first time for a long time. This is mildly important because Karkinos serves a similar purpose in Abyssea which is 'Boss Rush' style content for lategame.
So you basically start hitting him to get your special attacks ready and he shrugs off a lot of it. If you do 0 damage you build no gauge so you can't do those special attacks. If you hit him for very little, you're still chipping at him with every strike and if you chip at him a certain number of times he'll do one of the simple mechanics he has.
But against Karkinos, that Bubble Shower STR Down can bring you from 'doing minor damage' to 'doing no damage'. This is 'fine' in the sense that if you are doing no damage you are not 'chipping' him so he won't do another mechanic soon, but 'bad' because your 'Synergy' relies on two people doing their special attacks in order followed by the Mage doing a big blast that gets empowered by that.
So what you want the most is for the Tank to not lose hate as much over time. FFXI contains no 'Look at me!' taunt, only 'I am bumping my hate value up by X amount without actually doing any damage, temporarily'.
This is interesting here because that means the better Tank is the Paladin who has the most of this type, but the Paladin also actually takes hits unlike Ninjas who evade them. And Karkinos can do his special attacks because he's hitting too.
The fight usually becomes about 'empowering a Mage' while leveraging everyone else's skills and abilities to let that Mage shine, but just 'bringing more Mages' only works if you are quite prepared in specific ways. It works about the same, sometimes slightly 'less good'.
A concept of a 'good' method would be, as example:
White Mage to improve Paladin defenses and backup heal (Paladin is main heal for the above reason)
Thief to both put more Hate/Threat onto Paladin and to steal some of the Mage's hate and redirect to self, also to 'offtank' since they are evasive, and to add Defense Down status from Crossbow (a Dark Knight with Thief Secondary works just as well or better here, losing only the "Steal Hate From Mage" function in exchange for more magic attacks and some unique-to-them debuffs)
Bard to do what Bards do. A little of everything. Increase Stats, slow healing, DoT on Karkinos, Mana sustain for the mage, they're always busy.
Add Any DPS that can add other DoT sources or "Enspells", which do their magic damage regardless of if the actual strike 'hits for 0' because they're doing damage without 'chipping' Karkinos
Optionally Add a Summoner to do... almost as much as the Bard, I won't get into this, they are complicated, but a good choice for this fight if you work with them well.
And of course, the star of the show, the Black Mage themselves. To casts the spells that makes the people (or crab) fall down.
Relatively poor choices:
Warriors (it's a Crab, they don't do much as a Primary and they're bruisers, this is not where you need a Bruiser normally, but they can also use Berserk to make up for this specifically because the enemy is not very damaging, and they can use Weapon Skills to lower its defense and evasion and so on, it's basically that you have to work with them and can't just slap them into any party and use the same plan as easily)
Monks (See above, but 'worse', they can manage the same as Warriors with Warrior Secondary though)
Dragoons (They're ok but don't really contribute much of anything extra here either unless using a very specific build)
Samurai (Surprisingly useless in my experience despite not needing to actually chip Karkinos to gain special attacks, but can at least help with Thief Secondary)
Ninjas (don't bother unless you are determined or you're planning to rely on DoT, particularly if you brought the Dark Knight and not the Thief, but can be effective with Thief Secondary or other more complicated builds).
All relatively poor choices refer only to 'if you just happened to grab one passing by to fill the numbers' because their likely build won't suit the purpose. Entirely unconnected from anyone who built for this fight.
Now finally our two simplistic 'mechanics'.
Occasionally and almost entirely at random (though the chance increases as its HP drops), Karkinos 'upgrades' Bubble Shower to Venom Shower. The poison is strong and only Monks can remove it, and only from themselves. You can stun this and then it will 'reroll' which ability it does, but it will usually do another shortly after and it can be Venom Shower again anyway. In the early phases this is the main plan. Stun this attack and hope it does something else instead when it recovers from the CC. Bonus if your Mage has some defenses up, they should also go for a big attack here, if they take hate momentarily they can lose it by taking the hit sometimes instead of the Tank and then a Paladin tank can heal THEM to 'absorb' all that Hate. If somehow this isn't enough, there's always Cover, directly protecting them.
Then there's Mega Scissors, which is similar in how/when it happens, but 'nicer' to us because it's conal but also hate reset. Here, you're rather hoping it hits the Mage by coordination, but this is risky and unnecessary, so usually you just need to have the Mage blast when you see it if the Thief is ready. The Tank loses Hate (basically their value gets set to either 0 or 'lower than most of the group'), the Mage takes it, and the Thief steals it and becomes the Tank for a bit.
Also works fine if the standard 'two tanks' setup is used (this is actually a multi-group mob when you first meet it).
If Karkinos is low, just these two changes result in a 'different battle flow' because the players' 'responses to the mechanics' are themselves 'emergent mechanics'. If you get hit by Venom Shower, you aren't dying to it, but you are 'in a state where you don't want to chip Karkinos and trigger Mega Scissors'.
But too many Venom Showers back to back and the Bard has to change behaviour since the Healer (and Paladin probably) are starting to run low on Mana. They both have Weapon Skills to regain it, but that involves hitting Karkinos enough.
Similarly too many Mega Scissors in a row after a long string of no Mega Scissors means that now, the rest of the group is probably at higher hate values, meaning that if both Tanks get reset to low, it will take them much longer to regain control of Karkinos and the Mage and Thief basically must coordinate to achieve this, and hope that the situation is favorable in terms of the availability of people's special attacks.
So you get the emergent behaviour of 'holding your Weapon Skills after Mega Scissors#1 because there haven't been any Mega Scissors in a while and if you don't have them ready then Mega Scissors #2 might lead to big damage somewhere'.
Or the Paladin going 'Use them' because they know that they have a bunch of defensive skills and Cover ready to be used to protect the Mage after the chain puts the Mage high on the list and it won't matter if the Paladin actually has hate or not because Cover doesn't care about that.
And at that point they're actually hoping for Mega Scissors #2 because they'll be standing in front of the Mage, who should defensively buff and hope for Mega Scissors to hit them too.
But now everyone is focused on stunning Venom Shower because the last thing you want is a lower HP Mage hit by that when the Tank can only protect them from physical hits, especially since if you stun Venom Shower and get lucky, Mega Scissors will follow and all this time that Mage is just offloading spells into Karkinos to get damage while being Covered hoping that Mega Scissors is about to reset all Karkinos' hate on them without them dying somehow.
But then some days you just run out of Stuns or whatever to stop Venom Shower and everyone has to refactor and adapt again because now your Mage and Tank are both Venom Showered and your best bet is to have your Healer use a huge AoE heal and then the Thief steal their hate instead and tank Karkinos until the Paladin(s) get back up there in the list.
There's more to this fight as you add more people, especially Summoners, but I think this is closer to what Intrepid is looking for without all the extra.
I enjoy this fight, whether as Thief, White Mage, or Ninja (assuming I built for it on that day and the rest of the group is also adapted toward it in whatever way). Despite its relatively simple core 'Boss Abilities' Mechanics types, I enjoy all the adaptation to the shifting situation and view things like 'Double Venom Shower after Mega Scissors' as the equivalent of another game's 'Here is a big mechanic you need to do this thing to avoid'.
All without changing Karkinos from being anything other than 'empowered Crab'.
I believe these bosses need to be on the longer TTK side, with multiple phases, 5 phases minimum with 2~3 minutes of downtime in between, and mechanics should account for multiple groups engaging in PvP creating the opportunity for counterplay to occur.
For example, mechanics that keep the first raid busy and susceptible to attacks like an enraged phase or a phase with multiple spawned objectives - but also brief moments where the boss becomes invulnerable/jumps away for a few minutes spawning weak adds that would give the opportunity for a 2/3 minute PvP brawl until the boss comes back.
Things like that would make these encounters very interesting and wouldn't impact the content when PvP is not happening. I also hope bosses have a long respawn timer with RNG so they won't be farmed and camped over and over again.
another game that did this was new world, the puzzle solving gave me satisfaction that i know how to solve the puzzle the only thing i didn't like was the one-shot mechanics some of the puzzles had where if you mess up, you're most likely going to die.
1. Balance - I believe boss fights first and for most should be relevant, i always enjoyed when i was directed to go kill a boss for something other then loot. i balance between skill and strategy has always been what i enjoyed. I believe bosses should have some time of mechanic where it prevents it from being a zerg fest. When mechanics can be completely ignored it makes a boss fights just another "trash mob". I also believe the boss fights should just be a boss fights, meaning it should be a challenge one way or the other, when bosses do abilities at certain points during the fight, eventually it gets min maxed and the boss becomes irrelevant, having some type of complete randomness to the abilities and when they are used i believe is ideal to keep a boss fight fun, exciting and new every recounter.
2. Clutter - most of the boss fights i have enjoyed in WOW, Archeage, Lost Ark Ultima Online even, have been the challenging ones where the spells, the extra adds, and environment didn't cover the screen just for the same of making it more hectic. I do believe that some bosses should be hectic for the player, and they should be a challenge for a guild or a party to kill bosses, I believe early days of Archaege bosses did this very well. I dont recall the name of the boss however there was a boss in archeage where at some point throughout the fight there was a period of time where the healers, tanks, and dps had to do as much dps as possible, and even thought he boss itself wasn't really doing any abilities there was environmental waves of water that needed to be dodge by everyone.
3. Graphics - i've always enjoyed fights where the bosses just simply look epic, now this doesn't really affect the mechanics and or quality of the encounters, however when u do have a great looking boss with great animations, it just helps with the emersion, leviathan in archeage i believe was a perfect example of that.
4. Encounter - as much as i hate to say this, bosses should have a certain level of strategy and and skill, if guilds or partys cant kill certain bosses that should be ok. I believe this also helps the player base grow in skill and want to be better to be able to kill all the harder bosses.
i cant finish my rant because i have to go but, some of my memorable bosses have been. are below
WOW
illedan
ragnaros
C'thun
4 horsemen (vanilla)
garrosh
azuregos
Archeage
Leviathan
Kraken
A: For both small and large groups my favorite boss mechanics are those that creates Chaos that shatters cookie-cutter strategies and forces players adaptability skills against unpredictable circunstances.
Most of those "Chaotic Mechanics" are related to RNG, may it be:
RNG Target interactions (Random Threat Loss/Gain/Transfer/Ignore and Chance of Resist against Threat skills)
RNG Boss Skills (In its critical chance, frequency and types)
RNG Boss' Minion spawns (Their frequency, their amount and their type)
RNG Boss Environmental Threats (Their frequency, their size, their amount and their type)
Such chaotic mechanics are not only a challenge for the players fighting against the Boss but also for the PvP contenders trying to take over the boss for themselves in open world scenarios.
As for my Least favorite boss mechanics for both small and large groups, are those that are overly scripted and vulnerable for AI manipulation such as do X when the boss reach Y HP amount and do A if B is used in C situation, those have their utility specially if intented for anti-zerg mechanics like M happens to the boss if N number of players attacks it atleast once for O seconds/minutes.
Do you have any memorable fights, and if so, what made them special?
A: Most fights against Lineage 2 Grand Bosses like Valakas, Antharas and Beleth were memorable for me, not only because of the Chaotic Mechanics they had, or their overall difficulty( Insane stats, HUGE oneshots and CC AoEs and hella strong minions) but also how they influenced PvP conflics inside of their arenas, creating truly special PvX Scenarios.
Aren't we all sinners?
My favorite groups mechanics for boss encounters would be
1. directional attacks that require movement to be avoided (a cone attack from a boss requiring you to sidestep).
2. ragdoll effects should these directional attacks, or other large attacks attacks, not be avoided.
3. stacking tiers of a debuff for the party requiring a specific skill/item in the arena/cc effect in order to remove the debuff i.e. damage over time increasing the longer the fight goes on, in order to halt this damage from increasing or perhaps reset it, utilizing a cleansing device in the area to reset this DoT.
4. making mobs in the boss fight matter, but correctly. if it’s a boss fight, treat it like one. make the boss the prime target, you never want to hear a player say “it’s not a boss fight, it’s an add fight.” however, the mobs should play a key role in getting the boss killed. my favorite example is the Remmorchant raid in LOTRO, in which all spiders you have killed must be manually burned with a torch, otherwise Shelob will come down after the add phase, eat the dead spiders and gain a massive buff, usually wiping the group.
5. mechanics where the boss receives -80% incoming damage because they aren’t in a specific area is always appreciated, however, as long as the area chosen to remove this buff is not rampant and has no meaning, i would appreciate this mechanic
Those mechanics I do NOT like include
1. where the boss’s mechanics have become so meaningless and futile, and the add’s mechanics and presence have outshadowed the boss itself, there’s an issue. i started the raid to kill a boss with 50k hp, not 50 mobs with 1k hp apiece and a 50k hp boss with brain dead mechanics
2. mechanics that favor different classes over others in explicit ways. obviously, some fights may be slightly favored towards ranges or dps, but if a melee class is chosen every single time over a ranged class due to 2-3 skills that make all the difference, something is wrong with boss design. if i stack 5 fighters for my chosen dps and refuse to take rangers due to the intended boss reflecting ranged damage only, the mechanics are broken (this is a silly mechanic, but you get my point).
3. boss mechanics that don’t make sense for the boss to have. kind of a no brainer. but you’d be surprised. or maybe you wouldn’t be.
ultimately, there aren’t too many mechanics i dislike, as there are many ways to formulate a raid boss, and as long as i feel engaged as a player and meaningful to the group, i am likely enjoying any mechanic implemented.
Intro:
Topic 1- How RNG is handled
Topic 2- Agency through Problem solving instead of puzzle solving (breadth of options available to the player and supported by the design)
Boss encounter design supports various approaches and playstyles:
A) There is room for different team compositions, with strategy and preparation in what team composition suits the situation (making more versatile team comps vs more specialized)
B- encounter design has purposes for non-combat gameplay styles
- encounters allow for taming during the combat
- mechanics can be used for crafting in real time (like tricking a dragon to breath fire to smelt and enchant the sword, or to cook a legendary dish)
- can you be stealthy and sneak around a boss?
- can you skillfully traverse around or above them when the boss gives chase?
- the boss can be talked to in a meaningful way, such as convinced not to fight, or bribing them, or recruited them for other purposes (like using your lore knowledge of tumok to convine him to team up for revenge against those who betrayed him, perhaps for an even more epic fight than just fighting Tumok himself)
- can be skillfully lured/trained to be pitted against other creatures, like another boss (basically the encounter supports emergent strategies)
- can be used for exploration purposes (like stalking the boss to see their routine, and how it interacts with the environment, to find secret places only it can access, or to see how you can disrupt its behavior to manipulate it into opening up hidden locations for you.)
- I also want to be questioning the morality of which approach I decide to take (was it right for me to manipulate Tumok for my own desires? Was it right for me to kill him? was it right for me to steal resources from him? etc., I feel like this should be an important part of how the lore and story all connect between different encounters and choices the player makes throughout their adventure.)
- I want bosses to deeply play into the story and player experience. I should have a strong feeling toward the boss, based on how it connects to me personally as a player through its personality, its intentions, its behaviors, etc. Do I actually hate this boss and want to kill it? why? Do I actually feel sorry for it? why? Why should I be emotionally invested in this boss and have that feeling toward it?
C) There are lots of unique combat options available to interact with the boss, outside of just the standard combat system
- using specific tools (like a grapple to trip the boss, or different traps)
- using the environment (like leading the boss near a cliff so you could reach their neck or eyes as a weak point) or using a gliding mount from further away to land on the bosses head
-using other types of combat to deal with an encounter, such as beinfg able to use fast mounts for "run and gun" style of fighting, or being able to use naval ships for support to bombard the boss, or training mobs or another boss to fight each other in an emergent way
Topic 3- Agency through strategic Depth, Skill, Challenge, and Mastery
1. fights should have a lot of strategic elements to them
This could be things like dismemberment, where you can cut off the tail of a dragon, and this disables its tail attacks, or it could be a weakness you can target, such as shooting a cyclops in the eye. Though I would prefer a more action oriented approach, you could still have tab targeting for different body parts, by making different parts individual targets you can cycle through.
-I do think its interesting when there are multiple bosses in the same fight that synergize with each other, which can add strategy to the fight through target prioritization and added positional/spacial considerations
- Bosses can also be fun and unique when there is an extra component that involves protecting or escorting a teammate while they perform a specific task (as explained in another section, this would depend on how it is implemented, because I dont like when there is a singular one-dimensional mechanic the boss is designed around, I would prefer that it would be layered on top to add to dynamism and management aspects, rather than simplifying the encounter.)
Overall there should be lots of room for improving efficiency and tactics against a given encounter
- I like when you can use environmental advantages as a positional and tactical tool
This could be advantages you can get from using the environment both at a large scale strategic level (like utilizing chokepoints/flanking/etc.) and at a smaller scale tactical level (like utilizing line of sight from the terrain, or high ground advantages, or utilizing contextual actions like jumping off the hugh ground on to the boss, or pushing the boss of a high area for fall damage)
-I like when there are physics-based tools and boss-specific mechanics as extra/unique tactical options
I like when physics are involved in certain combat mechanics (like having to gain speed to wrap a rope tightly around a bosses legs to trip them up, or using enough force on a log to move it at high velocity to knock a boss over)
2. Skill checks
-skillful and interactive traversal as a fun way of interacting with encounters (such as traversing around them to bypass the encounter, or chasing them at high speed during an encounter)
I think this is a fun way of interacting with enemies and should be supported (without ruining the combat balance by favoring the more passive retreating strategies), I think there should also be boss fights that emphasize movement as a part of the encounter (like chasing a retreating boss).
This video talks about how to make this a fun experience and avoid making it a chore to traverse and chase things around, which I think would be a fun option for dealing with boss encounters
- skillful and interactive climbing as a means of interacting with bosses
This video talks about how to make this mechanic fun and interesting, which could add depth and variety to boss encounters
-physics
Physics is a way of adding interesting skill- checks to mechanics, and can make for fun extra ways of interacting with bosses if you don't want to incoporate it too much in the standard combat system.
This video talks about how to challenge the player in some of these ways, by testing their combat skill to ensure that fights are engaging
- I love when bosses are also mobile along with the player, this is far more engaging then when they just stay in a static position the whole fight. This opens up another dimension because you can challenge the player on their spacial awareness, and distance control, and utilizing more of their class kits- rather than just their positioning and dodging skills which is generally over-emphasized with those static boss fights.
That being said I like when boss fights challenge you on your mastery over your entire class kit and the combat system as a whole. These are far more interesting and fun boss fights. Its fine if early-game fights are less complex in this manner to teach the player the mechanics, but I think the more difficult versions of early game bosses, or the most complex late game bosses should be more challenging and/or comprehensive in their design to include fun boss fights/challenge more skilled players throughout the whole experience.
3. Challenge
These videos discuss some universally applicable design approaches from the Doom series, and make some good points about Doom's combat and enemy encounter design, some tips for designing enemy encounters, how important that is to the combat experience, and some levers you can pull to create more diverse types of encounters and mechanics
I think by focusing on that "possibility space" mentioned in the video when designing encounters, this could create variety within encounters and also be used to create more dynamic and engaging encounters that challenge the players versatility, adaptability, and mastery over the combat system.
This mechanical variety, when used well, is one tool for challenging players to use their entire kit more efficiently, such as movement, offense, defense, resource management, etc.
This displays how both the encounter design and the class kits play a role in creating the overall combat experience, resulting in a "dance" between the two, so ensuring that both work in harmony is integral for making a good overall combat experience.
I think good A.I. is essential for good boss encounters. The A.I. should not only adapt to provide challenge based on the player's skill level, but it should also adapt its strategy based on the player's strategy. This creates a lot of depth and dynamism organically throughout the fight, where the player and boss are learning behaviors and trying to counter them in a fun back and forth, which creates a unique story and experience for each player, during each encounter.
- As I stated before I think the boss encounters should support a variety of strategies and playstyles. Some of these being knowledge based gameplay and "talking/convincing" based gameplay.
In the past i've linked vids that go over how to make talking fun and how to test player knowledge rather than handing them info (such as the "how to make talking fun" and "what makes a good detective game" GMTK video discussions)
here is an example of how this kind of gameplay could be used as a boss encounter design, through utilizing A.I. to further challenge players in a back and forth discussion.
A lot of this tech has advanced, and recently has been asked about a lot in regards to utilizing more advanced A.I. interactions through things like chat gpt, or through attempts to make mmos that focus on this type of gameplay like the MMO "StoryBricks". I think there is a lot of value in considering this style of approach for boss encounter design, to push the level of challenge and immersion to better support alternative playstyle approaches and add variety and depth to gameplay options.
One form of difficulty that adapts to the player is a scoring system. Steven mentioned there will be a lot of data tracking for players to compare with each other. I think this is great, but I think it could be utilized for even more benefits.
1. scoring can be used to encourage the intended experience (so if you want player's to not "cheese" a boss and instead engage with the full combat kit, there could be scoring systems that reward the more interesting ways of playing)
2. scoring systems can be used to reward the player for the actual gameplay itself, without triggering the "overjustification" effect described in this video.
as stated in the video, you also don't want your scoring system to be something that rewards arbitrary thresholds for the player, as this takes away from the more meaningful reward of striving to become more efficient, which is what the scoring system should be focused around
3. scoring systems allow for easier content that lower-skilled players can still complete for worse scores, while still having room for higher-skilled players to grow and be rewarded through better scoring
4. scoring gives a pvp element to more pve based content, through being able to compete with other's scores without directly fighting other players
5. The scoring system could be utilized as a risk/reward mechanic, to incentivize players to take risks to get better scores
6. Better scoring could also be linked to other instrinsically meaningful rewards such as "better" battle music, to provide more meaningful and valuable experiences and incentives
This video goes into more detail of how modern design can better utilize scoring systems, while also avoiding the common downsides
- I actually enjoy having phases of boss fights where they are basically just more complex, intelligent, and versatile versions of regular enemies. This is interesting because if enough variety and complexity is added to the boss design and level of challenge, then this can be leveraged to really challenge the player's mastery over the full combat system, and push their class kit to its limits, while expanding the diffculty and challenge of simple mechanics that were already taught to the player.
I think this is a very fun way of handling boss fights rather than having them be solely about the boss having unique mechanics and interactions with "puzzle-like" solutions. I think the absolute hardest boss fights should ultimately be about overall combat mastery, but with the added complexity of having unique mechanics and interactions. I dont like when unique boss mechanics/unique interactions are forced and are the only way of dealing with the boss, it can become pretty simplistic, dull, repetitive, and feel "one-dimensional". I think it should be an extra component, that acts as an extra tool in the player's kit, but needs to be used in conjunction with the rest of the kit, and used in a smart way.
So, rather than "the only way to beat this phase of this specific boss is to activate this scripted boss-specific trap" it should be "man this boss phaze is tough if we only use our class kit, how can we continue fighting while actually trying to lure it into this trap to beat this phaze more efficiently?". I think this approach could be very fun and emergent if direct combat with a boss is actually more about having additional combat complexity on top of additional unique interactions to master, rather than just stripping away and substituting out mechanics for "variety" but sacrificing depth in the process. These additional interactions could be lots of cool things, such as traps, physics based tools, and other things I listed in this post.
- I think its fun when unique mechanics and interactions are very "sandbox", where the extra mechanics are more options for player to manage, so they have to choose if/when they want to utilize these tools- something similar to old school Halo design, or the original Battlefront games, which were very "sandbox" experiences with different vehicles/weapons/etc. at the player's disposal.
- I also think it would be really fun to have unique mechanics for dealing with bosses that are synergistic and require teamwork. Things like coordinating with your team to trigger separate components of a trap (like one group trying to get the boss to face a certain direction and lead him toward a pit, while another does tries to set up a swinging log trap and aim it so that it would knock the boss into the pit, while another group tries to trigger the trap by cutting the rope which may be guarded by something.) Trying to manage these types of coordinated actions while simultaneously trying to survive and deal with the exisiting open world and boss mechanics, could be very exciting, and compelling imo.
Topic 4- How boss encounter mechanics are introduced, taught, and handled
1. Treating boss phases as "level design":
Like I touched on earlier, you want to have fun boss fights and challenge different levels of skill throughout the whole experience. Based on this I think bosses throughout the whole game should adapt to the skill of the player to open up phases that are more challenging "twists" using existing mechanics and/or phases that are more complex when appropriate. Based on this I like when boss phazes combine previously introduced mechanics. Its good game design when mechanics are introduced individually to teach the player, and then are combined to create more interesting challenges and more fun experiences. I think a good approach to boss phases would be to treat them like "levels" in a level-based game.
Here are some relevant videos that break down some design approaches used for good level design that could apply to boss phases and design in the world.
Application:
This applies to introducing and teaching the player the mechanics through earlier simple phases in a boss encounter, or even just using other enemies to teach mechanics, before then challenging the player on their mastery over these mechanics during boss encounters.
Sequence breaking is just being able to access harder content before you are "ready" for it. This could apply to the actual phases themselves within a boss encounter due to the natural progression of the difficulty curve as the fight goes on.
Application:
It would be cool of there were ways to prompt for specific boss phases (like angering the boss to initiate his hardest phase immediately), but then your party is getting crushed and there may be some adaptive difficulty that kicks in but offers a lower reward. This offers some customizability in the experience and allows veteran players to bypass the stale early phases if they are already familiar or want to take the risk.
Application: This is a good way of adding depth and breadth in a simple way, by using mechanics that are already familiar to the player, and making them think critically about how they work and how they can use them for different purposes. This design approach is just another tool for adding complexity to challenges, and also a more efficient and simple way of doing so, which could be useful when trying to add challenge to more complex boss phases using existing mechanics. This functions as a nice "twist" mentioned in the earlier mario video.
Concept 1: This video talks about how megaman 11 mixes and matches which mechanics are introduced to create variety and how they fine tune the pacing in which they are introduced
application 1:
This is already done organically within ashes through letting players choose which enemies they want to engage in the open world, but it could also apply within boss phases, by ensuring there is always a variety in what the game is teaching the player to avoid things feeling too repetitive
Concept 2: The Megaman 11 analysis video also talks about how it uses the level to create new challenges and ways of interacting with specific mechanics, which could definitely apply to encounter design in the world
Application 2:
This applies to using the environmental layouts of an encounter to further twist how the player interacts with the mechanics on offer.
The value of this is that it works as an additional tool for adding complexity for a given mechanic when appropriate. This is another means of providing a twist on existing mechanics for ramping up challenge and variety, which could be useful for encounter design.
Application: This could apply to more complex phases, once the player demonstrates mastery over more simple mechanics, or chooses to risk engaging with the more complex parts of the fight. The harder boss fights/phases are a good opportunity to add/combine the more complex mechanics and/or "twists" on the mechanics that were already introduced, such as environmental complexities or other factors.
Application:
This could apply to both combat and non-combat approaches I highlighted earlier, by allowing the player to show mastery over the combat efficiency (through things like scoring/adaptive difficulty) or mastery over the environment and movement as touched on in that video, and also in the video "making movement a mechanic" I linked, and also in the following video that talks about utilizing the environment as a test of mastery and skill to overcome challenges, which could apply to boss encounters and using movement and environmental mastery to solve the problem that the boss encounter presents.
This is also done really well in the hitman series as analyzed in these videos- where it explains how your knowledge over the environment and how to best navigate it is a skill that helps you make plans and adapt to different and even unpredictable assasination targets (which act as bosses in this game). I think this is a really interesting way of having other challenging aspects to boss encounters and having more options to interact with them and solve problems within a more "sandbox" environment. I think its important to note that this is not "trial and error" that is appealing. The "repitition" is simply becoming more efficient and knowleable and increasing your skill as a player. For the "bosses" in this series, the game is testing you on your actual skill instead of rewarding you for trial and error, because it introduces input rng through the unpredictable "elusive targets" (bosses), which means you have to master the underlying systems to be able to efficiently react and deal with their unpredictable behaviors, rather than just repeating the mission over and over again until you beat it.
A good way of implementing this is discussed in this video, and could apply to scoring/metrics used for boss encounters
2. Unique mechanics are discovered, rather than told
- This goes back to my points in the "lore characters" discussion, about
A) telling stories through systems
B- rewarding in-game observations and logic/reasoning
C) experiential story telling, instead of telling, whenever possible.
3. Lore character discussion
- playstyle and role expression
-invisible choices and ways of interacting with bosses
- knowledge based gameplay when interacring with bosses
- using bosses as a navigational tool
- customizable and emergent experiences with bosses
- making sure boss designs are cohesive with the worldbuilding
- using bosses for personalized story telling with consequences
- moral expression and role play with bosses
- designing bosses to tell stories experientially and in an immersive way by showing the narrative instead of telling it
- ensuring bosses have interesting story to them
- ensuring bosses have complexity as characters and in hiw they interact with the player and the world around them
- ensuring they are believable
- ensuring they are dynamic and reactive
- Using bosses as an immersive tool for other purposes
- ensuring their rewards are relevant and satisfying
Sorry for the spoiler but, a good example of telling a story with the mechanics during a boss encounter is the fight "Gastropolis" at 50:27 in this video
I recommend reading the dialogue before the fight for context. Basically, Crosscode is set within an MMO setting and for gastropolis fight, this is actually a program spawned by the antagonist, and is supposed to be invincible.
Luckily you have a hacker on your side, and he is able to even the playing field by spawning power ups you can pick up during the fight. This was such a brilliant moment in the game because you actually get to experience the story of being helpless against an invincible boss, and then experience the character giving you power ups through actual in-game mechanics you have to utilize, which makes for a very immersive and emotional moment of triumph, which I thought was a great story telling moment.
Topic 5- Solo vs group play
Topic 6- Risk
-I also like when there is an organic reason or motivation to kill the boss (like the boss actively destroying trees that we could use as resource)
Topic 7- Music
Some very interesting and dynamic uses of music are explored in these videos
As discussed in these videos, Nintendo mastered this kind of design, which creates a very immersive, addicting, and rewarding experience when done right. I find it really interesting to use music to both teach, and reward more skilled gameplay, in a dynamic way. This shows how music can be utilized much better in modern design with some creativity, which could make for an incredible experience if handled well, due to the intrinsic value of music.
Topic 8- Pacing
As some others have mentioned, I don't enjoy being encouraged to wait around just for the sake of it. Its fine if mixing up timings is an important part of the gameplay to stay unpredictable and bait out mechanics, because this is more about delaying actions, which is intentional, deliberate, and requires you to be engaged- as opposed to having to wait around for long periods time for of invulnerability phazes to end, without substituting that time with something equally as engaging, which is bad boss design imo.
Topic 9- Game examples:
1. shadow of the colossus-
- epic scale
- highly immersive
2. dragons dogma-
- climbing/grappling mechanics
- very interactive boss fights
- variety of fighting styles supported and challenged
3. monster hunter-
- strategic elements (like targeting specific limbs)
- different types of non-combat playstyles supported (like gathering resources during boss fights)
- also has a variety of combat styles that can be used
4. Crosscode-
- emphasis on distance control, positioning, and timing throughout the encounters
- Includes some boss encounters with adaptive A.I. that change strategies to counter the player's (like the Apollo fights)
- certain bosses encourage the use of the full combat system and class kit, with varying weaknesses to encourage different fighting styles.
- certain bosses do good at layering extra unique boss mechanics over top the base combat, while others can feel slightly more restrictive due to their very specific mechanical weaknesses or puzzle-like solutions, making the fight feel slightly more "one-dimensional"
-good combat pacing and very engaging
Here are a few fights in the base game that I found especially fun. Its important to note these fights are done by a pro, so it makes it look far easier that it actually is because of his precision in how he is countering their behaviors.
what made sephisloth fun 1:05:15
- I think its fun because he is attacking from different angles, making you have to mix up how you dodge, while simultaneously keeping you boxed in, making you careful about how to dodge. This risk of going into the hazard while also trying to adapt and react to the angles on the fly, was very engaging
what made twighlight master fun (1:20:29)
- man this was one of my favorite boss fights of all time, super fun. Its so engaging and fluid because of how mobile the boss is, and how is constantly dodging and chasing you down. His attacks also force you to use a lot of tools in your combat kit, which makes for a really fun experience.
what made guard biston 1 (33:01) and guard biston 2 (34:31) fun
- I think this Boss battle was super fun to me because your entire kit is actually effective against him, there aren't any lame immunities or limitations when he is fighting you, so you can use your full kit, and there actually is reason to do so because he is chasing you around and constantly repositioning and attacking from different ranges, so you are encouraged to counter those actions in different ways using different abilities in your kit.
What made peng king fun (18:26)
- The player in this video finished fast and made this look easy. But this one was a lot of fun in a longer fight. I think that is because you have a lot of room to move around and use your mobility skills, and you are constantly having to judge the angles that you should dash, when to retreat, when to side-step, and when to dash through the enemies, as they chase you from different angles and you slide around the ice.
what made hologram frobbit fun (36:24)
- This fight was also very fun and one of my favorite. I think that is because there are so many considerations during a longer version of this fight. You have to use your full kit to deal with all the abilities being thrown at you and the constant movement, while also having to adapt strategies when this boss changes elemental usage, while also using line-of-sight and angles to your advantage by blocking his abilities while also ricocheting your own off of walls and into him. This was very fun trying to be efficient and optimize these different tactics.
Here are a few fights in the DLC that I found especially fun
what made illegal coordinator fun (21:29)
I think this battle was interesting because you had to manage an extra mechanic on top of your normal combat strategy. You still have to use your abilities to take out enemies and protect yourself, but you also have to protect the turret and manage its usage to your own advantage. I think this extra layer added to the experience rather than detracting from it, and made it a unique encounter.
what made hillcart fun (48:50)
I think this one was fun because you have to do some extra platforming during the fight, this also adds risk due to the hazard you are jumping over, and this makes it fun trying ti string together you movements as you dodge and move car to car, while also trying to manage your jumps and chain everything together to keep your traversal fluid.
what made gynthar fun (1:02:17)
I think this one was fun for similar reasons to hologram frobbit, it truly tests your mastery over all the elements and your abilities, and also your ability to adapt your strategy in response to the boss adapting his.
Here are a few fights in the post-game that I found especially fun
What made apollo fun (0:00) (beginning of video)
- This one is really fun because it emulates a pvp match where the enemy is pretty much on the same playing field in terms of options they have available. This is really interesting because of the balanced counterplay going on. This is enhanced by the enemy's ability to adapt and adjust to your tactics, making that counterplay even more evident, which was fun
what made shizuka fun (2:30)
This one is fun for the same reason as Apollo, but you get some variety because of this character using a different fighting style
what made Lily fun (5:35)
Same reasoning as what made shizuka's fun. This one is also a bit more difficult and had some more stuff going on in the fight.
5. Sekiro-
- intamacy and fluidity in the encounters
- very challenging and intense
6. Final fantasy 16 (upcoming)-
This game isn't out yet, but has released a demo, and several gameplay showcases, and there has been a lot of player feedback from testers.
- From what was seen and heard so far, it has been mostly positive in regards to the boss encounters and combat
- The boss fights look very engaging and epic
- combat looks engaging and similar enough to AOC for comparison
- This will be a game to keep your eye on, being that it has a Iot of action and fantasy elements that AOC could draw from
7. A couple others that have fun elements in their bosses and combat are Nioh 2, Nier automata, Kingdom hearts, devil may cry, Scarlet Nexus, and Bayonetta
Thanks for reading!
This is 100% true and battles showing off teamwork vs ones that show off weakness directly effects the level of toxicity in the community it might seem small but it can be vitally important if you don't want things to turn out like LoL where you cant join a match without someone yelling at someone. I was also very concerned watching the boss stream with both the boss doing very high dmg to the whole raid and the healers being able to bring the whole raid back I worry any fight will come down to mainly how many and how good are you healers. as someone who has a played a lot of healing I see a situation where friends will not be able to play with each other at all if the healer friend is offline making them pug one and if the healer is bad getting yelled at until they hate healing this is a cycle that after a few months can easily breed very heavy toxicity and unless every type of group member is equally important is hard to avoid.
Boss Fights
Now, with the event of Unreal 5, the sky is pretty much the limit.
Top 3 things I don't like in a boss fight
1. I can't stand for a boss just to be sitting there like a limp piñata, oblivious to the 40 people right in front of him. (Are all bosses blind and deaf?) Surely, you can spruce up the encounter with some nifty tricks the boss has learned over the year(s) he's been in his/her lair. i.e. smell, hearing, or have one of the lacky's of the boss alert him/her.
2. Telegraphing. I'm really not a fan of the circles on the ground letting the players know don't stand there...how would they know? Is the boss going to tell you, "Hey, I'm dropping acid bombs in these spots...get out of the way!"
3. Another thing that irks me is the boss never changes his fight tactics...just does the same ole same ole the entire fight. Boringgggg!
I'm often perplexed as to why everyone is so afraid of making a boss run away from a fight...is the boss just that stupid, or is it a damn it, I'm going to fight to the death! There are some really cool things you could do with this. Have the boss run away when it hits a certain percentage. If the boss makes it to point A it eats some stuff or does something to regain massive amounts of health back and now it's got new tactics. Then flies or runs away again to another point. Want to make it truly epic? Have the boss run away and this chase spans across multiple zones. A true fight that is an adventure all unto itself!
IDEAS
With Unreal5 we've seen the mist rolling in across the land...why not ramp that up to 11. Make it so no one can see hardly anything..have the boss taunt the party/raid while this fog is up. Same thing can be said with a dragon's wing buffet....let it blow a billowing cloud of dirt and debris..total screen fog.
Why not have a boss hide from a party/raid? The raid walks into the big room and its empty....or so it seems. Boss starts taunting the party/raid and finally reveals himself. He could come from up above, a side entrance, or break through the floor. Heck, the whole room could be smoky and if the boss had wings he could be flying overhead just waiting to make it's best strike to start the fight.
Why not give the boss the ability to turn invisible during stages of the fight? Or it be invisible when you walk in and the wizard(utility skill) is the only one who can detect it. Or it be invisible and walking around the room or doing something besides just sitting there...or it turn invisible as soon as the party enters the encounter area.
Why not give the boss the ability to clone itself during or at the start of the raid/encounter? The real boss could be chosen at random so no fight is exactly the same. i.e. the real boss is always the far right one standing towards the entrance way. Let it be random so it could be anyone of them.
Why not have the boss chase the party/raid through the dungeon...but you don't know it's actually forcing you to it's lair?
Backtracking back to multiple copies of the boss, how about the boss breaks up into several copies of itself and the party/raid has to fight each of them...once a certain number of copies is killed it melds back together and then fights, but it's health is ratio'd down because of the copies the raid/party killed.
These are just some. I'm pasting an old post I wrote a year or two ago, but editing it now that Unreal5 is out and tailored more to the program's strengths.
1. A boss fight to me should be epic. You've endured the dungeon or wild and it's minions to get to said boss, and now it's time to grit your teeth and put all your skills to the test. (I'm going to use a dragon as the example because I think we all associate a dragon with the big bad guy in a true fantasy mmo. That is not to say there are other type of nasties as bosses, I'm just using a dragon for this one.) A side note, I don't know if dragons in Ashes are like most table top rpg's as in they can talk and cast magic, but for this scenario I will assume they can do both.
Phase 1. The Lair
For one, since Ashes is implementing archetype skills, there should be traps all over the place, especially at the entrance to the boss. That is taking for granted the boss isn't stupid and it hears all the fighting going on in the hallways or caverns leading up to it. (which i hope is the case) The traps could be of any type, spike traps, flame traps, darts, etc. IT will give the rogue a hearty workout for sure and possibly the ranger.
But as soon as the first party member steps into the lair the dragon takes flight and will do a few strafing runs on the entrance. The whole raid will have to time it to run to a relatively safe space while the dragon is circling above or get cooked. While the dragon is flying he will taunt the party, calling them insects, vermin, or even fool hardy wannabe thieves, etc
Once in the room you notice the cavern is immense and the ceiling is barely visible, you also see a huge spire in the center of the room, which is a great distance away, with a stair case that is carved on the side of the spire that leads up to the top. You also see magical auras flashing from atop the spire and you hear booming chants coming from the top.. Great, he has lackeys to help him, but you do know the top of the spire is where you need to go. The raid sets off for the spire as the dragon continues to make strafing runs at the raid, and also uses it's massive weight and fire to loose huge stalactites from the ceiling that will fall down onto the raid, which are now fiery molten pieces of stone. A very tedious cat and mouse game ensues until the raid reaches the spire. Luckily, there are a few stalagmites scattered across the floor to hide behind while the dragon unleashes holy hell fire upon the raid.
Phase 2. The Spire
The raid has made it to spire, it's immense, a LOT bigger than you first thought. The spire ascends at least 100 feet up if not more, and the steps aren't very wide. A fall from the top would be certain death, and even halfway up a fall would be deadly. The journey up is not without peril. The dragon circles the spire breathing fire on the raid, and in once instance the dragon hovers before the raid and unleashes a HUGE breath of fire, engulfing a huge section of the stairs. If you are unlucky enough to be caught in it it will be certain death. To make matters worse the dragon tail slaps the spire and you have to be butted up to the spire wall or be knocked prone or off the side.
After a tedious climb you make it to the top to find four wizards, hands and arms moving, voices booming. What spell or ritual they are attempting to cast is unknown but you know it's best to stop them. A very hard fight ensues and to make matter worse the dragon continues to fly overhead and breath fire onto the raid. The wizards employ all kinds of tactics to the fight even levitating off and away from the spire to rain spells of mass destruction onto the raid. One notable spell is a control person spell all wizards use, and it is discernible by the length of the time taking to cast the spell, those unlucky enough not to stop this spell will be controlled and walked off the spire top and fall to certain death.
The fight is long and tedious, but you have managed to kill all four of the wizards and stopped whatever spell/ritual they were attempting atop the spire, but as the last wizard dies the dragon becomes enraged and finally lands onto the top of the spire.
Phase 3. The Dragon
The dragon lands and then with it's huge wings, wing buffets the raid hoping to knock some of them off the edge, but all will be knocked prone. if you are knocked prone the massive wind from the dragon's wings push you back 10-15 feet, hopefully you aren't at the edge of the spire. A mighty wall of dirt and debris hangs in the air making visibility next to 0. The dragon takes off again and does one last staffing run on the party.
The fight is a nasty one, with it's breath weapon and tail slaps, bites, and claws. The dragon takes flight twice during the fight and lands repeating the wing buffet on the raid. As a last ditch effort the dragon polymorphs into a giant humanoid type creature and begins casting spells at the party. Numerous types of spells are employed against the raid, the control person, silence, mass control, slow, and the most powerful, the ray of death, which is a thin dark violet beam that will dot the player and quickly kill the player if not healed right away.
The dragon not being stupid knows it's losing the fight and takes to the air once again, hoping it will end the raid with it's fiery breath. While hovering above the raid, the raid has to burn him down to kill him, otherwise the dragon will self heal itself x number of heath and the process will start all over again beginning with phase two of the dragon fight. If the party does manage to bring him down the dragon falls from the sky engulfed in flames bellowing, "You will never find my hoard!!!!"
Phase 4. The Hoard
The old dragon is a smart one, it has hidden its hoard in a secret chamber deep underground in the cavern and yes, its trapped and spell warded. Time to use those archetype abilities to find it! The raid finally diffuses the traps and breaks the ward on the treasure. A hard day, but a great day to be an adventurer!
Fight Scenario Style 2.
This is the same until it reaches the end of Phase 3.
The dragon knows its losing and in a last ditch effort dives at the spire wing buffeting the raid, there is a 50/50 chance you get knocked down. If you are not knocked down the dragon then grabs two people at random of the raid and takes flight to its true lair.
The raid watches as the dragon seems to fly through a wall and vanishes. The raid will have to go to the said entrance, again trapped and magically warded. Once the traps are disabled and wards broken down by the rogues, ranger, and wizard the party enters the tunnel and heads to the true lair. There could also be a another trap as the raid enters the lair where the cleric has to dispel a deadly mist that permeates the ground. The two captives are off in a wall magically held. Once the fight ensues the captives magical hold is broken.
The fight ensues in the lair pretty much like above in scenario 1 with the dragon polymorphed into a humanoid dragon type creature with the same spells and actions. Before the fight begins the dragon heals itself to 1/4 health. As the fight is nearing its end the dragon flees back up the hallway and takes the shape of the dragon as it flies out of the entrance. It circles and then hovers in front of the raid, this is the time for the raid to burn it down, if it doesn't the dragon flies back to the spire, heals itself and the fight ensues. If the party burns it down the dragon falls cursing the raid with it's final breath.
ok, yeah, this is long enough. I hope Ashes brings some of these to light in the game. We all want something new and exciting, but we also want a REAL challenge. Make us earn it!
Whilst not an MMORPG, Bramble: The Mountain King shows some fantastic environments, atmospheric effects, emotive sounds, highly creative bosses and pve interactions worthy of mention!
1 group bosses, pve only- this is where you go crazy with the mechanics. all the stuff the non pvp focused people want, they should get here. im thinking of it like the 7 signs competition from lineage2: ie instanced, so no pvp to disturb the mechanics, and reliable. for rewards, you want to time it so that people who grind these on the regular are able to get decently geared through crafting their drops. not too many full drops here, since its so easy to access and garuntee a kill. you could do something like maplestory even, a good natured pve race/competition thing between 2 arbitrary groups. go nuts here, as long as its in its own cordoned off area, both for the pve'ers safety, and the pvpers sanity.
1 group bosses, baby pvp- smaller, open world bosses that are relatively easily accessable, and have simpler mechanics relative to the pve only ones, but are maybe a bit more interesting than the big league guys. you want these ones to be easily accessable, but with a bit of effort required to get to them. maybe a 2-3 minute walk from the town. these guys shouldnt be instantly respawning, but you want enough of them that people who log on for 1-3 hours always has a boss to hunt and fight in their level range and area. if you have enough bosses, or the respawn timers are low enough, then thisll work awesomely. the goal of this type of boss is to give content for groups to form around, since groups are the backbones of pvp and clans and allys and internet drama, which we all love. making this accessable to smaller guilds and casuals without completely neutering the pvp aspect is how you nuture the game to grow and live forever. for rewards, you want them to give the same access to the higher teir stuff in the game, but not too much of it. ideally, itd take 1 constant party the same amount of time or slightly less to gear their party from these bosses as it takes for a big clan to gear their whole clan and then some by doing the world bosses.
big boi pvp: i know for a fact that steven knows about baium, ant queen, core, and anthras from lineage 2. i think the respawn timer and the randomness where insane, but all the other aspects of that boss system where amazing. lineage 2 understood that the appeal of a world boss isnt in killing it, the appeal is in killing other alliances trying to get the drops for themselves. for rewards, everyone who shows up needs to be getting SOMETHING from the game. dont let crappy guild leaders have all the power. thats how drama starts, and not the good drama, the kind that makes people want to quit the game. guild leader should get the big stuff, but showing up and being on the winning side should benefit you personally in some way.
optional: unique/wandering- some of the troll suggestions in the office hours like "make a boss that gives only good benefits to the node its in and doesnt harm anyone, but its easy to kill and has minimal rewards" is a good thing to have, just not in excess. or bosses that randomly spawn in nodes and have timers that make the environment take more and more damage over time until they are killed. great stuff for causing risk reward scenarios, and by extension a good game. i just dont think that should be every boss. just some of them, for flavor.
I don't like when the entire party is destroyed by a single area damage hit.
I like when bosses have adds and if they can run and hide or use terrain to their advantage.
Overconfident bosses who fight the same way until they die are boring.
They get split up to either side of the arena, where only a few AoE heals will be able to reach across. Then they have to soak 4 pools of fire that do 99% of their HP as damage each. (That would be a ridiculous amount of damage to heal even if they were stacked together.) To deal with that, they are given a massive healing buff. Wise use of cooldowns and shields, especially the few that will reach both healers, would allow them to survive without wasting any GCDs (a common optimization goal for FFXIV). Otherwise they just spam single-target heals on themselves and enjoy the near-invincibility.
It's not a crazy complex mechanic (unlike a bunch of Ultimate raids I could have mentioned), but I liked it just because it made me think about my healing tools in a different way for once. Also getting to see those humongous shields on the party list is always cool.
I dislike tank and spank boss fights that are too easy and have too few or no mechanics. My favorite boss mechanics are ones that are both unique and challenging, ones that require group coordination and planning. It's fine to take inspiration from other games, but don't feel like you are limited to making mechanics that have been done already. I find that boss fights in games become boring when they reuse the same mechanics over and over. Use mechanics/abilities that fit the theme of the dungeon and background of the character, but don't be hesitant to make them challenging, especially at higher levels. Use as much variety for boss encounters as you would for player's class abilities.
Lost Ark Dungeons, in particular Hall of the Twisted Warlord. The bosses are quick and the gimmick is binary and multi-staged; there is a very low chance that you have no idea what is going on but you still clear it. Once you know what you're doing, its a breeze almost every time. It makes you feel like you actually leveled up AS A PERSON for learning the dance and performing it correctly.
Wow Castle Nathria: I didn't play WOW between WOTLK and SL so I don't know how raid mechanics evolved, but I found Nathria to be very fun. Most bosses had different types of mechanics (altho several of them did have tank swap requirements) that required various positioning around the fight by most roles, as well as different tests for each role... varying dps windows, spikes to heal up or mitigate, CC to apply, etc. In particular, the Lady Darkvein fight stands out as a time when even the DPS (ranged AND melee sometimes) has to get their head out of their ass and do the mechanic (catch vials), and The Council forces DPS players to play the fight and trigger the dance at the right time instead of topping the chart through AOE. and they also had to help with interruption on the caster guy.
In general, bosses should require mechanics from all parties, aside from "deal damage, take damage, and heal damage." When that's the only thing going on, every boss is the same. Each player should need to do something out of the ordinary for bossing at some point in the fight.... move a certain way, blow cooldowns when normally that wouldn't be needed, target certain entities other than the boss, kite certain entities more than normal, dodge red zones, etc.
Although a slight tangent, I think boss mechanics with "opt in hard modes" is a great idea that was well executed in Castle Nathria. You can do the boss the normal way, or you can make it harder by intentionally limiting yourself in the way that you complete the encounter.
Memorable Fights:
To me the fights that were the most memorable were always those where one mistake from one player would cause a wipe. I do know though that most people hate these xD
But yea generally the most difficult fights are the most memorable for me.
Mechanics I don't like:
Mechanics I like:
- Adds that need to be kited until the fight is over or until they despawn
- Adds that need to be killed quickly because otherwise they cause dmg/a debuff/heal the boss or have a different kind of negative impact
- Adds that need to be killed at the right moment to cause a positive effect such as a cleanse to players nearby, purging the boss or granting heal to the players during a phase where they cannot be healed by the supports
Mechanics for each role:
As already mentioned in some of the mechanics listed above, something for each of the 3 roles is something I greatly enjoy and in my opinion makes the roles individually feel more immersive and important.
Mechanics that require specific tank actions, such as blocking special attacks for the group or turning the boss in the right direction etc
Mechanics for supporters like mob kiting, saving team mates with a dedicated skill such as position switch or pull, or purging the boss etc
And those for DPS like objective that needs to be destroyed in time, DPS checks or saving team mates locked in a cage etc
Reading the Boss:
Now this is not really a boss mechanic rather a PvE mechanic/gameplay
But it's one of the most important and fun things for me in PvE so I think this might be the right moment to mention this
If the boss has indicator animations before attacks makes it possible for the player to learn the boss's attacks, patterns and mechanics even for randomized attack patterns
I'm going to make two examples (TERA again lol)
One boss had 2 key machanics that both had you get one shotted if messed up
At the start of both he would fly up in the air but there was a major difference
For the first mechanic he would drop down again afterwards and kill everything within a certain range = players have to get away from him as soon as he flies up
For the second one he would create a cage with a movement mini game inside, everythone outside the cage would get a one shot = players had to get near to the boss so they are inside the cage
Now to tell what mechanic would happen you had to pay attention to the flying up animation, for one he would fly up straight, for the other one he would spin while flying
So this means at least one person had to learn how to read the boss and pay attention to him all the time in order for the group to not mess up the mechanics and wipe
The second example was for his attack patterns
The boss had one sword in each hand that he would slam on the ground to hit the tank
Depending on the attack pattern of these hits he would do a stronger attack after a few hits, so left-right-left caused a different stronger attack than right-left-right
I always loved this kind of gameplay aspect since it didn't only make PvE more immersive and difficult but it also provided lots of motivation to do the boss again and again to learn to read it and get better at the boss fight every time
This post is already pretty long so I will stop now but yea, I hope I could get my thoughts explained well and hope this kind of detailed feedback helps