Uh. No.
It's objective to the design of the mechanics for the game genre. Survival Game, Shooter, RPG, Adventure Game, Sim, Hack and Slash, etc.
Players can individually prefer specific mechanics. And lots of gamers tend to only care about the MMO aspect and ignore whether it's a Survival Game, RPG, Adventure Game, Sim, etc. Some even don't care about assessing the design differences between an MMORPG and a MOBA.
But you can expect the designers to design mechanics according to the genre they say their game is intended to be.
Intrepid is not just making an MMO. They are specifically making an MMORPG; not an MMO Survival Game.
(Also, they have specific mechanics they are trying to innovate on, rather than trying to be innovative with everything just for the sake of being innovative. And... we would like the game to release before 2030.)
IDK Dygz, its kind of turning into semantics. Not saying your wrong at all in your opinion.
I can appreciate what yours and other expectations of what an MMO/RPG should be or should not be; honestly totally valid opinions. but that is What a subjective take is; an opinion.
To say: we objectively "expect the Intrepid devs to design Tree Chopping like other MMORPGs" or that objectively "Gathering and Crafting are not fundamental draws to playing an RPG." is just not accurate or objective takes on the subject.
All of our wants and desires may not all be the same fundamental draws to an MMO or an RPG. There a whole slew of folks playing Palia right now for example. (never played it myself) but they are all drawn to that gathering, crafting, housing part of the MMO genre? Hence the subjective nature of "What is the fundamental draw to playing an MMO or an RPG."
I mean i think we can agree here that the huge draw for ashes is the Node system and that encompasses not only being a damaging mage or healing paladin primarily but also having a massive economy driving the game forward as a priority as well, no?.
Hence my curiosity for the fun of being involved in that economy and going out and gathering resource for that economy as a main gameplay loop. Because if it's not fun, i will probably just go kill things and be a mage. and the economy is just a byproduct of the combat being fun. But I'll have little to no desire to gather a resource if it's not fun..
At the end of the day I subjectively would like a balanced MMO-RPG that gives the player base the freedom to play how they want. That's true "role playing" IMO. Play a Wizard or Play a Bard. You and the dice decide how that plays out for you. And Pick your "Side" jobs. Be a Blacksmith be a tailor. You and the dice diced how that plays out for you. Role Play is objectively, picking an available fantasy presented to you by the developer and playing it out. The subjectivity is in how expansive the devs make it and/or how fun or engaging we all find it to be.
I won't be as foolish to think that Mages Wizards and Knights won't always always get the lime light; of cuorse they will, but IMO maybe this is why the subjectively of the post is tough, I think the gathers and crafters give the combatants the tools they need to be successful and I feel their job should be just as fun and engaging and active too. Even if it is a "side" job. And I don't mind admitting that it's a subjective take.
And yeah let's not have this arrive in 2030!
Overall I did find some answers over the past few days and it looks like I'll get my wish to some degree with Manual Crafting, but manual gathering may or may not be on the table based on the most recent live stream @ 1:40:00
I bet many players who play mmorpgs do not remember themselves as crafters or their crafting activities because the quests, dungeons, fighting, leveling, story leave stronger memories.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Survival of the node or the metropolis nation or the freehold is the core part of AoC.
Players will die many times killed by NPCs or other players.
Dying of cold during winter or heat in the desert because you are a homeless non-citizen might become a thing in other future mmos.
Developers are running out of ideas how to innovate for players who already played 2-3 mmos so they just mix everything.
But maybe we will see an amazing story system in AoC.
Again... you are saying MMO which is generic. Devs making a generic MMO might design generic mechanics, sure.
Expect devs making an MMORPG to use RPG Crafting mechanics and devs making an MMO Survival Game to use Survival Game Crafting mechanics.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
To say: we objectively "expect the Intrepid devs to design Tree Chopping like other MMORPGs" or that objectively "Gathering and Crafting are not fundamental draws to playing an RPG." is just not accurate or objective takes on the subject.
Survival of the node or the metropolis nation or the freehold is the core part of AoC.
Players will die many times killed by NPCs or other players.
Dying of cold during winter or heat in the desert because you are a homeless non-citizen might become a thing in other future mmos.
Developers are running out of ideas how to innovate for players who already played 2-3 mmos so they just mix everything.
But maybe we will see an amazing story system in AoC.
Again... you are saying MMO which is generic. Devs making a generic MMO might design generic mechanics, sure.
Expect devs making an MMORPG to use RPG Crafting mechanics and devs making an MMO Survival Game to use Survival Game Crafting mechanics.
So I made no error!
I learned to be careful and write all 6 letters when I talk to you
But I wanted to highlight that even though you say that ...
Intrepid is not just making an MMO. They are specifically making an MMORPG; not an MMO Survival Game.
... AoC tries to make players feel the importance of node survival. It will not be the survival of the character but of the node. This part of the game-play is openly discussed.
The other part, about the lore and story and how is delivered to each character, is secret. That will make the AoC an rpg. If I understand correctly.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
... AoC tries to make players feel the importance of node survival. It will not be the survival of the character but of the node. This part of the game-play is openly discussed.
Yep. So, that means that you agree with me that Ashes is designed with MMORPG mechanics, rather than Survival Game mechanics. The Crafting mechanics will most likely be MMORPG Crafting Mechanics, rather than Survival Game Crafting mechanics.
It's not impossible Steven could switch the design goals, but... it's highly unlikely.
Then we just see what actually happens.
So, no... I don't want the Tree Chopping in Ashes to be like the Tree Chopping in Sons of the Forest because I'm not interested in playing Ashes as if it's a Survival Game.
You have already said that you will not be playing the game. You also don't seem to understand what a subjective opinion is. There are no clearly defined "rules" when it comes to game design. Game designers can do whatever the hell they like. If an MMO designer wants to have mechanics seen in survival games, then they can. Your thinking is so "inside the box" it should be buried.
... AoC tries to make players feel the importance of node survival. It will not be the survival of the character but of the node. This part of the game-play is openly discussed.
Yep. So, that means that you agree with me that Ashes is designed with MMORPG mechanics, rather than Survival Game mechanics. The Crafting mechanics will most likely be MMORPG Crafting Mechanics, rather than Survival Game Crafting mechanics.
It's not impossible Steven could switch the design goals, but... it's highly unlikely.
Then we just see what actually happens.
I have not played a survival mmo. But if I have to imagine one, then in such a game, the player would be concerned constantly to pay attention to dangers related to environment (temperature, food, thirsts, shelter etc)
In an rpg game the focus is in the character development, adventure and events which together create the story of the character.
If you would want to make a game with both rpg and survival, you would put a part rpg and a part survival into it, and the player would be concerned about both.
In AoC, there will be the rpg part + the concern for the node.
So AoC brings something more than only RPG. Not survival in the traditional sense but still is something the player cannot ignore. I don't know if it will be possible to do much without being a citizen in this game.
To say: we objectively "expect the Intrepid devs to design Tree Chopping like other MMORPGs" or that objectively "Gathering and Crafting are not fundamental draws to playing an RPG." is just not accurate or objective takes on the subject.
I didn't say that, though.
My mistake. I agree, you only said what you posted and we can all read what you and I posted and digest it for ourselves..
Meaningful gameplay, risk vs reward content, satisfying visuals, sounds, and animations. These are the core elements I need for a well-rounded experience in the artisan system.
The satisfying visuals, sounds, and animations we get from the action and environment system feedback are already in the making and some of it looks very good. But there needs to be way more variety with each tool, the node spots, and the processing and crafting are in a very early boring state without much finesse. I like the animations for processing tho, but would love to do them by myself like I do gathering...
Risk vs reward is the anti-convenient philosophy I want to be a part of this system.
Doing more than playing a waiting simulation until the bar fills up, doesn't stop you from being watchful of your surroundings. There is a skill and learning curve, yes, but it feels way more satisfying if you can overcome doing something less convenient and more dangerous than falling asleep playing the game...
Meaningful gameplay is preventing you from that. Nothing against relaxing in games, but this game needs to be engaging in every aspect of it rots from the inside like all the other single-player mmorpgs...
We don't need to incorporate 20 skills to fell a tree or an extreme amount of realism, to do the work like in real life... but a good balance in between should be the goal for this game IMHO.
A few action time events with a limited range of random buttons to press can be engaging enough and provided with good action feedback for success, fail and enough different activities to do this could be a whole new game experience. Throw in a few skills to raise the quantity, quality, and rarity of the item you gather, process, or craft limited by the attributes your gear and your skill in the action time events provide and the artisan system is maybe more engaging than doing combat.
If it is too annoying for you to do more than pressing 1 button then you are exactly the type of convenience junky this game doesn't need. You will argue against every system which is not easy enough for you instead of learning how to master it. No one needs that.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have not played a survival mmo. But if I have to imagine one, then in such a game, the player would be concerned constantly to pay attention to dangers related to environment (temperature, food, thirsts, shelter etc)
This is like saying you've never played kickball and then going on to imagine how the rules for kickball are different than the rules for football.
In an rpg game the focus is in the character development, adventure and events which together create the story of the character.
If you would want to make a game with both rpg and survival, you would put a part rpg and a part survival into it, and the player would be concerned about both.
It's not impossible to make an RPG with Survival game elements or a Survival game with RPG elements. True.
Ashes is not attempting to do that.
In a Survival game, the primary gameplay revolves around Gathering and Crafting the things that you need to survive moment to moment. Character progression is based on upgrading your gear and crafting stations.
In an RPG, the primary gameplay revolves around following the Hero's Journey by progressing your character's physical, mental and magical/tech stats and abilities. Crafting is secondary progression path, rather than a primary progression path. You can buy gear and armor, etc from NPCs. No need to pursue the Artisan path if you wish to rely on NPCs for what you need.
The mechanics and economy of Crafting are designed fundamentally differently in these two game genres.
The foci of these game genres are fundmentally different. Since Survival games do not have a Class system players are pursuing and don't have Racial progression players are pursuing, there is more leeway to make the gathering and crafting more detailed, like a mundane life Sim.
In AoC, there will be the rpg part + the concern for the node.
So AoC brings something more than only RPG. Not survival in the traditional sense but still is something the player cannot ignore. I don't know if it will be possible to do much without being a citizen in this game.
I mean... all you are saying here is that you have no clue how Survival games are designed differently than RPGs or Battle Royales or MOBAs.
Sure, there can be hybrid games, but Steven is not trying to make Ashes a hybrid RPG/Survival game.
Sieges and Node progression are not going to cause the devs to adopt Survival Game Crafting mechanics/economy.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Meaningful gameplay is preventing you from that. Nothing against relaxing in games, but this game needs to be engaging in every aspect of it rots from the inside like all the other single-player mmorpgs...
We don't need to incorporate 20 skills to fell a tree or an extreme amount of realism, to do the work like in real life... but a good balance in between should be the goal for this game IMHO.
A few action time events with a limited range of random buttons to press can be engaging enough and provided with good action feedback for success, fail and enough different activities to do this could be a whole new game experience. Throw in a few skills to raise the quantity, quality, and rarity of the item you gather, process, or craft limited by the attributes your gear and your skill in the action time events provide and the artisan system is maybe more engaging than doing combat.
If it is too annoying for you to do more than pressing 1 button then you are exactly the type of convenience junky this game doesn't need. You will argue against every system which is not easy enough for you instead of learning how to master it. No one needs that.
Ashes is an RPG; not a Life Sim.
Players are not going to fail at Gathering because they did not push the correct sequence of buttons.
Even in Sons of the Forest, a Survival game, you press one button, you just have to move around the tree a bit instead of standing still.
The way I see it, the game should have activities for all kinds of people and play styles. There should complicated and difficult activities for those who want it, and also easy relaxed activities for those who want it. Sometimes players want both at different times.
Gathering is often given the latter play style on purpose. It’s supposed to be a nice simple thing you can do that doesn’t require a lot of brain power and activity to progress your character. And sometimes that’s what we want.
Still, the op has a good point. It can still be made “cooler” than watching a progress bar for a few seconds.
The progress bar does get alot more interesting when you spot a crew of geared folk coming your way and you are wondering if you got time to finish the farm or you need to stop and gtfo asap.
I get that this might feel like "been there, done that", but I seriously wonder: What exactly could be done to make it more fun? I mean saying "make it more engaging" - fine. But HOW? I honestly have no answer for this and never had, so maybe you can provide an example on how you imagine this to be more interesting?
This is what I wanted to say! Especially that last question. I'm so curious to know what folks have to say!
In an rpg game the focus is in the character development, adventure and events which together create the story of the character.
If you would want to make a game with both rpg and survival, you would put a part rpg and a part survival into it, and the player would be concerned about both.
It's not impossible to make an RPG with Survival game elements or a Survival game with RPG elements. True.
Ashes is not attempting to do that.
In a Survival game, the primary gameplay revolves around Gathering and Crafting the things that you need to survive moment to moment. Character progression is based on upgrading your gear and crafting stations.
In an RPG, the primary gameplay revolves around following the Hero's Journey by progressing your character's physical, mental and magical/tech stats and abilities. Crafting is secondary progression path, rather than a primary progression path. You can buy gear and armor, etc from NPCs. No need to pursue the Artisan path if you wish to rely on NPCs for what you need.
The mechanics and economy of Crafting are designed fundamentally differently in these two game genres.
The foci of these game genres are fundmentally different. Since Survival games do not have a Class system players are pursuing and don't have Racial progression players are pursuing, there is more leeway to make the gathering and crafting more detailed, like a mundane life Sim.
Good point. I liked your last podcast.
Especially when you asked Legendary Neurotoxin to estimate how long it would take to implement the crafting he described
Also the revelation that cutting trees or fishing are not normally RPG activities.
In AoC, there will be the rpg part + the concern for the node.
So AoC brings something more than only RPG. Not survival in the traditional sense but still is something the player cannot ignore. I don't know if it will be possible to do much without being a citizen in this game.
I mean... all you are saying here is that you have no clue how Survival games are designed differently than RPGs or Battle Royales or MOBAs.
Sure, there can be hybrid games, but Steven is not trying to make Ashes a hybrid RPG/Survival game.
Sieges and Node progression are not going to cause the devs to adopt Survival Game Crafting mechanics/economy.
I played single or coop survival games but not mmo survival games.
Funcom is developing a survival mmo in the Dune universe. That will be first such mmo.
And Shean who made No Man Sky announced a big planet which I have no idea how he will populate with players... Eventually the planet will be empty.
I get that this might feel like "been there, done that", but I seriously wonder: What exactly could be done to make it more fun? I mean saying "make it more engaging" - fine. But HOW? I honestly have no answer for this and never had, so maybe you can provide an example on how you imagine this to be more interesting?
This is what I wanted to say! Especially that last question. I'm so curious to know what folks have to say!
It is unfair to ask players how to make the games fun.
I get that this might feel like "been there, done that", but I seriously wonder: What exactly could be done to make it more fun? I mean saying "make it more engaging" - fine. But HOW? I honestly have no answer for this and never had, so maybe you can provide an example on how you imagine this to be more interesting?
This is what I wanted to say! Especially that last question. I'm so curious to know what folks have to say!
It is unfair to ask players how to make the games fun.
It really isn't, though? The problem is that we all disagree on it so much that they'd have to give us guidelines.
In this case, they did give us some guidelines. They're willing to make a 'minigame layer', and to have that affect outcomes. So we can probably assume that they'll take suggestions or maybe even implement what the community 'agrees on' to some extent.
We might even be able to assume that 'people who don't like minigames' won't factor into the decision too much, if there aren't too many people like that. After that, it would be up to the designers to figure out how to make those people 'not miserable' if the community discussion didn't do that already.
So 'let them cook' as they say, Vaknar's just asking 'what suggestions we have for the menu'. It's not like 'the chef asking how to make delicious pie in general'. It's 'the chef asking what less common variations on pie people have liked'.
@Vaknar I gave examples of how lumberjacking could work earlier in the thread. Similar to Velheim or Sons of the Forest but with the visual feedback of progress on the tree itself like it is in the video I linked. There is also a good discussion going on the Artisan feedback thread with the concept of More involved professions and less involved ones.
Fishing - could be something like Sea of Thieves or Red Dead Redemption 2 with different types like spear fishing for streams/shallow rivers, rod fishing and fishing nets for Deep sea or other large bodies of water. Each would get you different types and quantities. You start off with spear fishing and as you level work you're way into using fishing rods with bait and eventually fishings nets and rods in the ocean.
Mining - similar to lumberjacking with the rock crumbling as you hit it indicating progress visually. I don't like how ore just appears out of thin air out in the open. It should be found in rock formations, cliffs or underground most of the time. I also like voxel based mining like it is in valheim or enshrouded but it would have to be restricted to certain areas to prevent the whole map from being destroyed.
Cooking - like Sea of Thieves but more in depth. Add the ingredients to a Pot, pan, or spit over a fire, stir occasionally, and wait for them to cook. Use visual indicators like color of the food, bubbling liquid for when they're done, smoke for when something is burning and the food turning black.
Farming - hoe the ground, plant the seed, water it every so often, wait for it grow. Takes X day night cycles to fully mature and be ready to harvest depending on the type of produce. Becomes interactable when ready and can be seen visually. Has matching gathering animations such as picking fruit from the tree, pulling carrots out of the ground, etc.
I could keep going with each profession but I doubt anyone would read..
I get that this might feel like "been there, done that", but I seriously wonder: What exactly could be done to make it more fun? I mean saying "make it more engaging" - fine. But HOW? I honestly have no answer for this and never had, so maybe you can provide an example on how you imagine this to be more interesting?
This is what I wanted to say! Especially that last question. I'm so curious to know what folks have to say!
Thanks for checking in here Vaknar. I appreciate the time.
To the readers just a disclaimer; I know there have been many points in this thread about how Ashes isn't a survival game or this isn't an X style game but I'm simply answering the question asked. How would I imagine it.
Just shooting from the hip; I'll give 3 ways I can imagine it and I'd love for others to provide their thoughts on how they imagine it as well.
1. Dead by Daylight Style Generator Interactions
2. Rhythmic Clicking interaction.
3. Home Run Style Strength bar
You could use 1 for all resources or vary which ones apply to trees mining, skinning or herbs. These are all existing gameplay devices used across the industry so I don't feel they are exempt from being used in an MMO/RPG for any given reason. And they can all be creatively expanded or diminished sufficiently to meet what ashes needs to be fun and engaging.
Dead by Daylight Style Generator Interactions
I know Ashes isn't a survival horror but What comes to mind is when I think of the interaction in Dead by Daylight with the generators for example.
For those who have not played it I'll summarize. Your character begins the interaction when walking up to the generator. Key moments come up during the interaction where you have to press the key at the right moment to progress the completion bar. If you miss-time it, it sets you back a bit or only progresses it slightly and a loud boom alerts the killers(Enemy Player) of your location. if you time it well you're one step closer to finishing and less noise/no noise is made. Once you complete the action you are rewarded with the lights turning on. Not a lesser light or a greater light. Just more light. Also, if you and 2 other players work on the generator it's is resolved/collected faster!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40htiBXs1j8
Before I get into how this can be implemented in Ashes just know that I also can appreciate that the 25 seconds is a lot of time to being interacting with a tree or mining vein by comparison so the output would need to be sufficient for the time invested in the collection; this is only IF the system were a mirror comparison in an MMORPG.
IMO this sort of resource collection in this game is an evolution on progress bars generally and not genre specific. The resource collection in DbD is focused on getting as many generators as possible without attracting attention.
In an MMO by contrast the objective is to avoid the aggro radius of the mobs and enemy players when collecting the resource so that you can get the most resources as quickly as possible without interruption.
Using a system similar to this or derived from this sort of gameplay makes it so you have to be engaged with gathering and can't just auto pilot. If I Misfire a Mine Node or a Tree Node it would create a ton of noise increasing my aggro radius. If I misfire on a flower i cut myself and writhe in pain alerting enemies. Knowing that at any moment a wrong click could alert others to my position makes me want to optimally harvest a resource so I don't have to deal with mobs or a potentially PK that can hear me. It makes me want to bring along friends so we can deal with the issues that could arise and bring down resources faster resulting in more shared items among us where clearing each tree along could take longer and result in overall less tree resources for me if i was farming alone..
Rhythmic Clicking
A very simple way to make it more than a progress/loadscreen bar is a rhythmic Click or key press.
You click the tree or mining node and the bar starts moving. The "Z Key is on the screen"
* Do nothing and it will stop in W seconds and no resource will be collected.
*SPAM the Z Key wildly and it will come down in X seconds.
*Press the Z Key in a synchronized Rhythm that is suggested to you by the UI and it will come down in Y
*Take down the Tree with friends and It can be done in Z-A seconds IF synchronized well and the resources are split among the group. Poor Synchronization and the tree comes down in Y seconds.
Home Run Style Strength Bar
I think we all know the Mario party/Baseball/Basketball style bar that has a minimum strength max strength Gauges when making a free throw, hitting at base or trying to do some given activity.
So similarly when working on a resource the bar appears and the user needs to time their key press or spam their key to obtain the minimal optimal key spam to complete the progress bar. With friends again makes it faster.
Thanks for reading, I tried to make the bullets bolding sectioning as clean as I could.
Edit: Updating some of the numbers to be variables. Also not saying this is what it must be, it's just an idea in the vast amount of examples that exist today in non MMO's.
Just shooting from the hip; I'll give 3 ways I can imagine it and I'd love for others to provide their thoughts on how they imagine it as well.
1. Dead by Daylight Style Generator Interactions
2. Rhythmic Clicking interaction.
3. Home Run Style Strength bar
Counterpoint:
All of these can be done with inhuman reactions, by a piece of code that is checking maybe a 10x10 pixel area on the screen, running in the background, while the player is paying attention to everything else, as long as they don't move their camera.
No network traffic, no 'handing over the control of the game as a generality', and, if you're sensible, no mouse movement. Undetectable. In fact, the entire reason for the 10x10 pixel space is so that the player has to align naturally to the UI as they would. You can also just make it track the position of the mouse rest though, with a bit more work.
(and as my own disclaimer, I DO have suggestions, but nothing makes it meaningfully better for those who like these games while not utterly annoying people who don't, so if asked, my vote ends up being 'eh, put the complexity somewhere else)
I'm all for more involved crafting and gathering, but not for the sake of trying to stop the use of bots, because that isn't going to happen. If they're going to design more in-depth mechanics then it should be done with the emphasis on fun and a positive reward/experience for the player.
And having more interactable and involved crafting/gathering is absolutely something that can be done in RPGs (MMO and otherwise) and has been done in the past. This whole "RPG mechanics" vs "survival mechanics" and how you can't or shouldn't have similar mechanics for similar systems across genres of games is nothing but nonsense.
I just realized that I was overlooking something obvious again, because I haven't tracked the recent games.
I don't mind the minigame sometimes if the purpose of the minigame is to avoid spawning or aggroing a reactionary mob.
Add an item that further prevents the spawn of this mob in some way, and we're good. e.g. 'hit this rock with your pickaxe as fast as you can in an 'unskilled' way and a Rock Worm spawns and nabs your ore and you have to kill it to get the ore back. Hit it 'skilled enough' to avoid the Worm and you just get the ore.
Bots will still do what they do, ofc, but if your interest as a player goes beyond 'playing a small rhythm/click recognition' game, maybe the occasional 'randomly nearly impossible to avoid spawning the mob' is fine. Just a thought, I don't know how much it actually feels engaging to others to 'have to recognize and avoid pulling up the monster instead of the fish'.
(and as my own disclaimer, I DO have suggestions, but nothing makes it meaningfully better for those who like these games while not utterly annoying people who don't, so if asked, my vote ends up being 'eh, put the complexity somewhere else)
Even if you don't share I appreciate having the input from a smart "white hat hacker/bot-maker". A good design/development team needs that.
I get that this might feel like "been there, done that", but I seriously wonder: What exactly could be done to make it more fun? I mean saying "make it more engaging" - fine. But HOW? I honestly have no answer for this and never had, so maybe you can provide an example on how you imagine this to be more interesting?
This is what I wanted to say! Especially that last question. I'm so curious to know what folks have to say!
Rust has a way to make it more engaging. The wood and ore nodes have a mark on them that if you hit you get increased collection rate. Of course this is an FPS game and the center screen (reticle) is where the mark needs to be. Every time you hit the object the mark moves, so you have to re-adjust.
It's actually not that exciting, but the main point is that it is difficult to be aware of your surroundings if the center of your screen has to constantly be adjusted to hit a moving mark on an ore node. This is also a game where someone can sneak up on you and 1 shot u in the head, so it makes the "risk vs reward" of farming efficiently actually compelling. Hitting nodes and chopping trees on a busy server is a high stakes event and you can feel the danger on every swing.
When it comes to harvesting/gathering, I don't want the actual act of picking stuff up to be where the thought, fun, engagement or action is. That should be found in getting to, from and around the location you are harvesting.
Going out and harvesting should be fun. This does not mean that the fun needs to be had when you are standing in front of a harvest node with the immediate intent on getting that resource in to your inventory.
Adding anything more than a simple interaction detracts from the experience as a whole.
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IDK Dygz, its kind of turning into semantics. Not saying your wrong at all in your opinion.
I can appreciate what yours and other expectations of what an MMO/RPG should be or should not be; honestly totally valid opinions. but that is What a subjective take is; an opinion.
To say: we objectively "expect the Intrepid devs to design Tree Chopping like other MMORPGs" or that objectively "Gathering and Crafting are not fundamental draws to playing an RPG." is just not accurate or objective takes on the subject.
All of our wants and desires may not all be the same fundamental draws to an MMO or an RPG. There a whole slew of folks playing Palia right now for example. (never played it myself) but they are all drawn to that gathering, crafting, housing part of the MMO genre? Hence the subjective nature of "What is the fundamental draw to playing an MMO or an RPG."
I mean i think we can agree here that the huge draw for ashes is the Node system and that encompasses not only being a damaging mage or healing paladin primarily but also having a massive economy driving the game forward as a priority as well, no?.
Hence my curiosity for the fun of being involved in that economy and going out and gathering resource for that economy as a main gameplay loop. Because if it's not fun, i will probably just go kill things and be a mage. and the economy is just a byproduct of the combat being fun. But I'll have little to no desire to gather a resource if it's not fun..
At the end of the day I subjectively would like a balanced MMO-RPG that gives the player base the freedom to play how they want. That's true "role playing" IMO. Play a Wizard or Play a Bard. You and the dice decide how that plays out for you. And Pick your "Side" jobs. Be a Blacksmith be a tailor. You and the dice diced how that plays out for you. Role Play is objectively, picking an available fantasy presented to you by the developer and playing it out. The subjectivity is in how expansive the devs make it and/or how fun or engaging we all find it to be.
I won't be as foolish to think that Mages Wizards and Knights won't always always get the lime light; of cuorse they will, but IMO maybe this is why the subjectively of the post is tough, I think the gathers and crafters give the combatants the tools they need to be successful and I feel their job should be just as fun and engaging and active too. Even if it is a "side" job. And I don't mind admitting that it's a subjective take.
And yeah let's not have this arrive in 2030!
Overall I did find some answers over the past few days and it looks like I'll get my wish to some degree with Manual Crafting, but manual gathering may or may not be on the table based on the most recent live stream @ 1:40:00
Expect devs making an MMORPG to use RPG Crafting mechanics and devs making an MMO Survival Game to use Survival Game Crafting mechanics.
So I made no error!
I learned to be careful and write all 6 letters when I talk to you
But I wanted to highlight that even though you say that ... ... AoC tries to make players feel the importance of node survival. It will not be the survival of the character but of the node. This part of the game-play is openly discussed.
The other part, about the lore and story and how is delivered to each character, is secret. That will make the AoC an rpg. If I understand correctly.
It's not impossible Steven could switch the design goals, but... it's highly unlikely.
Then we just see what actually happens.
You do not understand correctly. What you are describing there is the Themepark aspect of Ashes being a Themebox.
You have already said that you will not be playing the game. You also don't seem to understand what a subjective opinion is. There are no clearly defined "rules" when it comes to game design. Game designers can do whatever the hell they like. If an MMO designer wants to have mechanics seen in survival games, then they can. Your thinking is so "inside the box" it should be buried.
In an rpg game the focus is in the character development, adventure and events which together create the story of the character.
If you would want to make a game with both rpg and survival, you would put a part rpg and a part survival into it, and the player would be concerned about both.
In AoC, there will be the rpg part + the concern for the node.
So AoC brings something more than only RPG. Not survival in the traditional sense but still is something the player cannot ignore. I don't know if it will be possible to do much without being a citizen in this game.
True, this was a mistake. Thanks.
The satisfying visuals, sounds, and animations we get from the action and environment system feedback are already in the making and some of it looks very good. But there needs to be way more variety with each tool, the node spots, and the processing and crafting are in a very early boring state without much finesse. I like the animations for processing tho, but would love to do them by myself like I do gathering...
Risk vs reward is the anti-convenient philosophy I want to be a part of this system.
Doing more than playing a waiting simulation until the bar fills up, doesn't stop you from being watchful of your surroundings. There is a skill and learning curve, yes, but it feels way more satisfying if you can overcome doing something less convenient and more dangerous than falling asleep playing the game...
Meaningful gameplay is preventing you from that. Nothing against relaxing in games, but this game needs to be engaging in every aspect of it rots from the inside like all the other single-player mmorpgs...
We don't need to incorporate 20 skills to fell a tree or an extreme amount of realism, to do the work like in real life... but a good balance in between should be the goal for this game IMHO.
A few action time events with a limited range of random buttons to press can be engaging enough and provided with good action feedback for success, fail and enough different activities to do this could be a whole new game experience. Throw in a few skills to raise the quantity, quality, and rarity of the item you gather, process, or craft limited by the attributes your gear and your skill in the action time events provide and the artisan system is maybe more engaging than doing combat.
If it is too annoying for you to do more than pressing 1 button then you are exactly the type of convenience junky this game doesn't need. You will argue against every system which is not easy enough for you instead of learning how to master it. No one needs that.
It's not impossible to make an RPG with Survival game elements or a Survival game with RPG elements. True.
Ashes is not attempting to do that.
In a Survival game, the primary gameplay revolves around Gathering and Crafting the things that you need to survive moment to moment. Character progression is based on upgrading your gear and crafting stations.
In an RPG, the primary gameplay revolves around following the Hero's Journey by progressing your character's physical, mental and magical/tech stats and abilities. Crafting is secondary progression path, rather than a primary progression path. You can buy gear and armor, etc from NPCs. No need to pursue the Artisan path if you wish to rely on NPCs for what you need.
The mechanics and economy of Crafting are designed fundamentally differently in these two game genres.
The foci of these game genres are fundmentally different. Since Survival games do not have a Class system players are pursuing and don't have Racial progression players are pursuing, there is more leeway to make the gathering and crafting more detailed, like a mundane life Sim.
I mean... all you are saying here is that you have no clue how Survival games are designed differently than RPGs or Battle Royales or MOBAs.
Sure, there can be hybrid games, but Steven is not trying to make Ashes a hybrid RPG/Survival game.
Sieges and Node progression are not going to cause the devs to adopt Survival Game Crafting mechanics/economy.
Players are not going to fail at Gathering because they did not push the correct sequence of buttons.
Even in Sons of the Forest, a Survival game, you press one button, you just have to move around the tree a bit instead of standing still.
Gathering is often given the latter play style on purpose. It’s supposed to be a nice simple thing you can do that doesn’t require a lot of brain power and activity to progress your character. And sometimes that’s what we want.
Still, the op has a good point. It can still be made “cooler” than watching a progress bar for a few seconds.
The progress bar does get alot more interesting when you spot a crew of geared folk coming your way and you are wondering if you got time to finish the farm or you need to stop and gtfo asap.
This is what I wanted to say! Especially that last question. I'm so curious to know what folks have to say!
Especially when you asked Legendary Neurotoxin to estimate how long it would take to implement the crafting he described
Also the revelation that cutting trees or fishing are not normally RPG activities.
I played single or coop survival games but not mmo survival games.
Funcom is developing a survival mmo in the Dune universe. That will be first such mmo.
And Shean who made No Man Sky announced a big planet which I have no idea how he will populate with players... Eventually the planet will be empty.
It is unfair to ask players how to make the games fun.
It really isn't, though? The problem is that we all disagree on it so much that they'd have to give us guidelines.
In this case, they did give us some guidelines. They're willing to make a 'minigame layer', and to have that affect outcomes. So we can probably assume that they'll take suggestions or maybe even implement what the community 'agrees on' to some extent.
We might even be able to assume that 'people who don't like minigames' won't factor into the decision too much, if there aren't too many people like that. After that, it would be up to the designers to figure out how to make those people 'not miserable' if the community discussion didn't do that already.
So 'let them cook' as they say, Vaknar's just asking 'what suggestions we have for the menu'. It's not like 'the chef asking how to make delicious pie in general'. It's 'the chef asking what less common variations on pie people have liked'.
Fishing - could be something like Sea of Thieves or Red Dead Redemption 2 with different types like spear fishing for streams/shallow rivers, rod fishing and fishing nets for Deep sea or other large bodies of water. Each would get you different types and quantities. You start off with spear fishing and as you level work you're way into using fishing rods with bait and eventually fishings nets and rods in the ocean.
Mining - similar to lumberjacking with the rock crumbling as you hit it indicating progress visually. I don't like how ore just appears out of thin air out in the open. It should be found in rock formations, cliffs or underground most of the time. I also like voxel based mining like it is in valheim or enshrouded but it would have to be restricted to certain areas to prevent the whole map from being destroyed.
Cooking - like Sea of Thieves but more in depth. Add the ingredients to a Pot, pan, or spit over a fire, stir occasionally, and wait for them to cook. Use visual indicators like color of the food, bubbling liquid for when they're done, smoke for when something is burning and the food turning black.
Farming - hoe the ground, plant the seed, water it every so often, wait for it grow. Takes X day night cycles to fully mature and be ready to harvest depending on the type of produce. Becomes interactable when ready and can be seen visually. Has matching gathering animations such as picking fruit from the tree, pulling carrots out of the ground, etc.
I could keep going with each profession but I doubt anyone would read..
Thanks for checking in here Vaknar. I appreciate the time.
To the readers just a disclaimer; I know there have been many points in this thread about how Ashes isn't a survival game or this isn't an X style game but I'm simply answering the question asked. How would I imagine it.
Just shooting from the hip; I'll give 3 ways I can imagine it and I'd love for others to provide their thoughts on how they imagine it as well.
You could use 1 for all resources or vary which ones apply to trees mining, skinning or herbs. These are all existing gameplay devices used across the industry so I don't feel they are exempt from being used in an MMO/RPG for any given reason. And they can all be creatively expanded or diminished sufficiently to meet what ashes needs to be fun and engaging.
I know Ashes isn't a survival horror but What comes to mind is when I think of the interaction in Dead by Daylight with the generators for example.
For those who have not played it I'll summarize. Your character begins the interaction when walking up to the generator. Key moments come up during the interaction where you have to press the key at the right moment to progress the completion bar. If you miss-time it,
Before I get into how this can be implemented in Ashes just know that I also can appreciate that the 25 seconds is a lot of time to being interacting with a tree or mining vein by comparison so the output would need to be sufficient for the time invested in the collection; this is only IF the system were a mirror comparison in an MMORPG.
IMO this sort of resource collection in this game is an evolution on progress bars generally and not genre specific. The resource collection in DbD is focused on getting as many generators as possible without attracting attention.
In an MMO by contrast the objective is to avoid the aggro radius of the mobs and enemy players when collecting the resource so that you can get the most resources as quickly as possible without interruption.
Using a system similar to this or derived from this sort of gameplay makes it so you have to be engaged with gathering and can't just auto pilot. If I Misfire a Mine Node or a Tree Node it would create a ton of noise increasing my aggro radius. If I misfire on a flower i cut myself and writhe in pain alerting enemies. Knowing that at any moment a wrong click could alert others to my position makes me want to optimally harvest a resource so I don't have to deal with mobs or a potentially PK that can hear me. It makes me want to bring along friends so we can deal with the issues that could arise and bring down resources faster resulting in more shared items among us where clearing each tree along could take longer and result in overall less tree resources for me if i was farming alone..
You click the tree or mining node and the bar starts moving. The "Z Key is on the screen"
So similarly when working on a resource the bar appears and the user needs to time their key press or spam their key to obtain the minimal optimal key spam to complete the progress bar. With friends again makes it faster.
Thanks for reading, I tried to make the bullets bolding sectioning as clean as I could.
Edit: Updating some of the numbers to be variables. Also not saying this is what it must be, it's just an idea in the vast amount of examples that exist today in non MMO's.
Counterpoint:
All of these can be done with inhuman reactions, by a piece of code that is checking maybe a 10x10 pixel area on the screen, running in the background, while the player is paying attention to everything else, as long as they don't move their camera.
No network traffic, no 'handing over the control of the game as a generality', and, if you're sensible, no mouse movement. Undetectable. In fact, the entire reason for the 10x10 pixel space is so that the player has to align naturally to the UI as they would. You can also just make it track the position of the mouse rest though, with a bit more work.
(and as my own disclaimer, I DO have suggestions, but nothing makes it meaningfully better for those who like these games while not utterly annoying people who don't, so if asked, my vote ends up being 'eh, put the complexity somewhere else)
And having more interactable and involved crafting/gathering is absolutely something that can be done in RPGs (MMO and otherwise) and has been done in the past. This whole "RPG mechanics" vs "survival mechanics" and how you can't or shouldn't have similar mechanics for similar systems across genres of games is nothing but nonsense.
I don't mind the minigame sometimes if the purpose of the minigame is to avoid spawning or aggroing a reactionary mob.
Add an item that further prevents the spawn of this mob in some way, and we're good. e.g. 'hit this rock with your pickaxe as fast as you can in an 'unskilled' way and a Rock Worm spawns and nabs your ore and you have to kill it to get the ore back. Hit it 'skilled enough' to avoid the Worm and you just get the ore.
Bots will still do what they do, ofc, but if your interest as a player goes beyond 'playing a small rhythm/click recognition' game, maybe the occasional 'randomly nearly impossible to avoid spawning the mob' is fine. Just a thought, I don't know how much it actually feels engaging to others to 'have to recognize and avoid pulling up the monster instead of the fish'.
Even if you don't share I appreciate having the input from a smart "white hat hacker/bot-maker". A good design/development team needs that.
Rust has a way to make it more engaging. The wood and ore nodes have a mark on them that if you hit you get increased collection rate. Of course this is an FPS game and the center screen (reticle) is where the mark needs to be. Every time you hit the object the mark moves, so you have to re-adjust.
It's actually not that exciting, but the main point is that it is difficult to be aware of your surroundings if the center of your screen has to constantly be adjusted to hit a moving mark on an ore node. This is also a game where someone can sneak up on you and 1 shot u in the head, so it makes the "risk vs reward" of farming efficiently actually compelling. Hitting nodes and chopping trees on a busy server is a high stakes event and you can feel the danger on every swing.
Going out and harvesting should be fun. This does not mean that the fun needs to be had when you are standing in front of a harvest node with the immediate intent on getting that resource in to your inventory.
Adding anything more than a simple interaction detracts from the experience as a whole.