Best Of

They've explained why APOC and UE5 change happened. APOC was a test for their initial combat design and made them realize that this design would not work for their goals. I wasn't following the game at the time of APOC, but afaik the stuff that you were getting for playing it is supposed to be transferable to the mmo as well, so it's not like you would've lost something if you played and paid for that mode.

There were also supposed to be several other modes (sieges being one of them iirc), which got scrapped exactly because development on the game took precedence.

The UE5 change was explained as a means for faster development, because UE5 has better tools for that. The visuals of UE5 will also help the game seem more appealing in the long run (though this is a fools errand, considering that biggest mmos on the market are old as fuck and look like shit, visuals-wise).

The change to UE5 pretty much shifted the game's development from 8 years overall to more like 4, at this time, cause it definitely seems that barely anything from A1 got transferred over in any meaningful way.

Everything is placeholder because it kinda has to be, while all the connected systems are being built up, and with one of those systems being dynamic gridding (which is one of the most complex systems Intrepid are trying to implement) - everything is on a slower pace of release than what it probably could've been.

All the vertical slice presentations are pretty much the standard in the industry. You can look at nearly every game presentation in history and see that majority of those do not match even the FINAL product, let alone pre-release builds. Making a vertical slice in a vacuum is way easier than trying to replicate the same fidelity in a live client. Especially when it comes to the kind of mmos that Intrepid are trying to make.

Summoner is being delayed because it'll be the, technically, most difficult-to-code archetype. You need proper mob AI, proper pathing, proper server/client response, proper player controls, proper mob interactions (effects/aggro/etc) - all of which are connected to server meshing, which is connected to dynamic gridding, which is not done yet (though PTR does seem to show some promise in that regard).

Rogue and Bard are the examples of what the devs are capable of, when it comes to archetype design, so rebalancing/design of other archetypes is simply a matter of time (yes, I know that this is an ironic thing to say under a post complaining about said "time").

All races looking "the same" is not really about fidelity or dev work or anything else. That's simply the design Steven went with. I'm fairly sure thsi has been known from the start. We have humans, humans with long ears, short humans, green (previously yellowy-reddish) humans, tree-deer humans, shrimped humans, grey humans and the furry/scaley beasts. Obviously those last ones are the most difficult to create, especially considering the promise that we're supposed to be able to combo their traits however we want.

I agree that the cosmetics thing is dumb as fuck. I also think that rebalancing of things like archetypes, stats and gear is also dumb, at this moment in time. I think that working on FTUE right now is dumb as fuck too. And obviously all the constant delays are annoying beyond belief.

But considering the current state of the industry, it's a fucking miracle that this game is even still alive and is being developed. Half the games that were announced in the past 5-10 years have been cancelled. The other half have come out in more than unfinished states or in Early Access ones. And anything that's been released, or was released waaay back in the day, is full of the most predatory practices imaginable. In other words, everybody knows shit's fucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImMxcUQrBCs

And while none of that stuff excuses Intrepid's prolonged development or Steven's love to overpromise LITERALLY THE ENTIRE WORLD - I do think that the game is in a better state than most of the industry rn. The only problem here is that we see a fair part of how the sausage is made and only a few of us are ok with seeing that process w/o flipping out at its insanity.

I'd recommend forgetting about the game for now and simply checking gaming news from time to time, cause if the game does release - you'll hear about it one way or the other.

Except the fact that when it comes to modern story telling, you are still quite literally 'making shit up.' In Final Fantasy XI orcs, elvaan, and various deities like Odin look nothing like their mythological counterparts, or have the same sharp European limits. You can respect where something comes from while still making it your own. Or should we be striking down Square Enix for cultural appropriation due to their asian/darker skinned elves and portraying Odin as a samurai? That'd be nonsense right?

Hell even elves are an evolution. Most of the time they were depicted as short, then got conflated with 'fey in general' (on purpose because Tokien thought it more interesting) and we therefore now general think of elves as tall, largely due to the Tolkien popularization by dnd. Which also added their own components and so on.

Ashes is currently in the process of 'making shit up.' I respect people who want to 'keep source material as is.' I will even fight for you. I will reject, however, limitations on making new things for the sake of 'being more pure to the source material.'

Its the developer's creative vision let them envision their world, if you don't like it make a new game yourself with whatever character settings you like. Why does everyone have to impose their view on others.

If you don't like how others do something do it yourself.

So if you don't like how developers see their game lore and characters make your own game and lore

Skin-free play makes for some pretty ugly mis-matched toons....

I thank Intrepid for giving something that looks enough like an answer (10K) for the next Phase to mostly-convince my group members.

Econ Friday has rolled around again! To avoid making a new thread especially for another reference post I'll put an Econ Slots thing in this one to go with the above because my group wishes that I explain something from FF11. For those who are happy with the Economy of most MMORPGs of this era, there's no need to read it. For those who aren't, Intrepid has a thread for you. This post is only tangentially related and will lack a lot of context for brevity (I should use an infographic but that's less checkable/editable). The contents of this post are a historical rant about another game and are not about 'what we want to see in Ashes specifically.

Adventure Progression Slot #1:
The first thing you do or goal you pursue. FF11 simplifies this down to 'get some bronze or brass for a weapon'. Throne and Liberty uses 'get some uncommon materials for a new weapon'. In FF11, a 'Free Trade' game, someone can get the Bronze for you and you pay them. Sources: Worms (Bronze and Tin Ore), Goblins, mining, Smithing Guild (limited). Everyone else, to the Auction House! (almost immediately available, physical location in FF11). Some vendors also sell gear for prices meaningfully above what most players would sell them for on Auction.

Currency Progression Slot #1:
The first alternate path. Don't want to fight worms or look up quests? Go gather raw currency! Beastmen drop 10-20 gil each, quests will get you there, you don't need to equip a new weapon until level 7 anyway. By then you can buy some Bronze or a whole premade weapon. Also, technically, get Signet, fight things, get Crystals, sell them.

Artisan Progression Slot #1:
Get signet. Fight anything. Get Crystals. Learn which Crystal is used for the Artisanship you want to do most often, fight more of what drops them. Crystals only drop from things that give you/your group exp and Crystal drops are sorta per mob not per combat participant. Make food, thread and ingots, even a weapon, cloak or hat!

Adventure Consumption Slot #1:
Food! Effort in, delicious food out. Fire Crystals, Rabbit Meat, Currency (to buy salt and marjoram). In FF11 you can craft anywhere so they make you buy or stockpile the spices, to connect you to the world. In TL you can carry huge amounts but can only craft in specific spots. Both anchors work.

Currency Consumption Slot #1:
See above. Also, gathering tools. At this stage in FF11 since only Beastmen drop currency, and it's fairly minimal, the Auction House Taxes are enough to drive the currency inflation down. In TL the Taxes are doing twice the work, deflating the Lucent and partially paying NCSoft. In both games the goal is the highest reasonable Economic Velocity possible to go through that Auction House (FF11 uses Crystals, hundreds of transactions per day, eventually from 40 gil to 200+ gil)

Artisan Consumption Slot #1:
Ammunition and Gathering Tools in FF11. Item Trait rolls/attempts in TL. Crystals themselves are constantly consumed during this process as well, so this completes the 'first loop'.

Materials, currency, and Crystals are all gathered and pushed through the Auction House. Largely unavoidable artisanship products, counterinflation pressure, and decent food boosts. Crystals come and go with every battle and every 'synthesis'. There is no 'Questing Player' component to the Adventure Progression slot other than Currency, and repeatable quests usually have a second 'form' which is less rewarding monetarily.

Adventure Progression Slot #2:
Made yourself some gear or bought it either from others or for exorbitant prices? Push through to level 9 and get yourself some Brass gear! Know a Goldsmith who has been making all those Brass Ingots with no clear purpose until now? Add Brass to your Bronze Dagger and now you have a Brass one (you hope, and maybe not you personally). Go out there and hit more Beastmen! They drop Beastcoins which also melt down to Bronze (but this is rare). This is the level where 'Rare' and 'EX' tags start to appear on a few things. Rare simply means you can only hold one, so even if you want to 'camp' a Notorious Monster (Elite) you can't benefit unless you sell off the previous. Later on, some early game items were given these tags to prevent high level players monopolizing them because ofc they did. Newbies are taking over/assisting your old slot in the Earth Crystal and Rabbit Meat markets.

Currency Progression Slot #2:
Level 7+ is around the point where a few things that could actually be vendored for a few more gil (often about the same as Beastman amounts) drop about 17% of the time from random mobs. But nearly no one wants to vendor those things because everyone wants to use them for their endless need for things like Brass Flowerpots, sword grips, quests, and crafting material stockpiles. Still, you definitely can. The currency drops from Beastmen haven't gone up, but they can be killed more quickly so that helps, you just get less exp. Not 'less compared to your exp to next level. Just less. You're stronger than many of them now and must seek stronger ones.

Artisan Progression Slot #2:
You can grab your tools and venture into more areas where you can actually mine and log and harvest plants, since it's safer now. Or if you're an Alchemist you split your time between gathering things to make stuff with, and gathering the Crystals to make those things, because they are not often in the same place/same mob.

Adventure Consumption Slot #2:
Same as before. The food is better, the ammo is stronger. You can continue to do without it, but you're obviously much less effective. By now you might be carrying a potion for emergencies, these really weren't worth it for anything else, they were barely worth it for what they actually did. So new ingredients go in, perhaps, and slightly more effective food 'comes out'.

Currency Consumption Slot #2:
So many small things you want to decorate your house or prepare to grow plants. You don't want to be that person whose Mog House just has a bucket in the corner, do you? Splurge! Get multiple buckets! (this is a joke, but only because Buckets aren't a gil-sink). Auction House fees are handling most of the rest, as the playerbase advances, so does the Economic Velocity (usually).

Artisan Consumption Slot #2:
Broken pickaxes, broken sickles, broken fishing rods (at least these can be repaired... hopefully). Furniture that is definitely staying in people's houses forever now, and the occasional deconstruction or crafting failure on an upgrade. The rest goes into ammunition. This slot dies off as the playerbase matures, but in FF11 all miners use the same Pickaxes, so never entirely.

Adventure Progression Slot #3:
You're level 11. Time for the big leagues. "The Dunes" (for most, back then). Eventually was streamlined by making the game more Themepark and soloish. But we're talking about the late 00's here. Where you went for the fastest exp. The place you skipped if you found any of the other nine relevant zones to be comfortable/challenging/fun. The dunes are a place of pain, waiting around, and uncoordinated parties, with mostly the same drops as before, and some deeply unprofitable but dangerous enemies. Come back later solo to protect your juniors from them in the deeper areas, they often don't want to fight them in party here anyway! Your gear is coming from the Auction Houses back in your hometown with almost no exceptions. Money is scarce if you only push through here. Other places provide a laundry list of interconnected economic points though.

Currency Progression Slot #3:
New areas, a few new Quests, new Beastmen to get a few coin from, and probably your economic Niche. Assuming you enjoy anything about the game other than 'getting more levels', either someone is going to pay you for it, or you can use it to not need to pay other people (note that Currency Progression slot data isn't about currency faucets, but generally Currency Consumption slot data will be about currency sinks. Since modern games (including TL as of this writing) generally lack this 'economic Niche' concept, it's hard to explain, but just know that yes, many people did find all possible activities for gaining money boring. They didn't want to 'farm' for Beeswax, they didn't want to gather seeds and grow plants, they didn't want to craft, they didn't want to quest. They just wanted to advance, and they needed money. Not sure what to advise about those people, the only thing that ever seems to placate them is handouts or 'afk progression' (bias here).

Artisan Progression Slot #3:
In the old days? The pain point, the bottleneck, the stopgap. Because those who wanted to level stopped bringing back the stuff you needed to level with. You need Zinc and Bronze Ores? Sorry, worms are a threat to someone other than the Tank in party so we're not fighting 'em. You want Fire Crystals? Goblins HURT tho, and Lizards have Petrify. At this point you needed to make friends. Reliable friends. Whether or not you fought alongside them, you needed people who were aiming beyond the absolute basic easiest content, or you'd never have Dhalmel Meat, Fire Crystals, or Iron Ore. Slime Oil? Are you CRAZY? Have you seen what Slimes DO to people?

Adventure Consumption Slot #3:
Same old. Food, Ammunition, Potions... wait... what's that? Silent Oil? For sneaking deep into enemy territory past dangerous enemies that aggro by sound? That sounds great, where can I... Slime Oil, you say? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.} But the 'best' players always had food, a potion or two, and something like this. Mages had to fork out for the spell scroll instead, which is more of a...

Currency Consumption Slot #3:
Mages need better spells, Tanks need better gear. It was a simple time. It was terrible. Yet it mostly worked, or probably moreso everyone who hated it quit. I personally think this method of using this slot this way is so hated that it's almost better to use Progression Currency separately. Throne and Liberty ties all sorts of Progression options to that currency, and you can never take those back (since you can't sell gear you've improved or get the money back for skills you level up). For any worries, Ashes does have a solution! If only we could make sure everyone needed to care about something in their environment, like a 'Node' or something. Perhaps some sort of 'tax'.

Artisan Consumption Slot #3:
You're still buying the occasional thing from a vendor for your work. In fact we're even racing to the limited supply from the Artisan Guild shops. Why is it limited? No, not just to make you miserable, it's to stop that person who attempts to corner and freeze the market, obviously. You know. That person. None of us like th-- oh wait, you're not that person, are you? Whew, good. Anyway, the prices of stuff in that shop go up if they're being bought out first thing every game day (which they are). Better start going to get them yourself, you're strong enough now, right? Some Artisan paths make mostly consumables, others upgrade old things into new stronger things, and of course, occasionally fail. Don't worry, most of those things 'disappear' a bit later.

Adventure Progression Slot #4:
Finally! A hub City! I had to walk fifteen malms to get here! There were Raptors, people! One nearly... anyway, where's everybody at, I need even more gear and even more levels! Oh, we're fighting Crabs... again? But only after Worms? I thought we didn't fight Worms in party because... ok nvm, worms it is. We're good players now... I think. After this we'll go into this dungeonish place and fight more Goblins since we got good at those back in the latter part of the Dunes. (if you followed this path as fast as possible you were undergeared and underprepared, but at least now you had the important thing, access to a hundred or so other people who took a different path and therefore knew things you didn't. One way or another this would lead to some advancement).

Currency Progression Slot #4:
At least now that you're fighting new things, and everyone's spread out a bit, there's less pressure on your niche, even less pressure on the 'people who are just pushing and actually lack a niche'. And that tower IS full of Goblins and therefore Fire Crystals... To be clear, this worked because people did spread out, they just didn't all talk about it. This was level 20+.

Artisan Progression Slot #4:
Finally, you can level and gather things that help your crafting (regardless of if you went to the hub City or not, though you might need to go there to sell things maybe). Or the demand for something you can make went up so you get to craft more, and more specialization points have appeared so you're not competing with literally everyone else.

Adventure Consumption Slot #4:
Finally you can just coast along on mostly cheap food! But now you need to do missions for your country. And that requires you to gather Crystals. You also need a Chocobo License, which is more time-work. And finally, you absolutely must update your gear now. You're out of crabs to bully, if you want to adventure with others, nearly everything has at least some chance to kill you if you don't gear up. This was true before, but this is the real end of the line for almost everyone, you can't get past here in mostly level 7 gear. Not even a purely backline healer should risk that once out of the Crab barrel. So once again...

Currency Consumption Slot #4:
Have you seen what they are charging for better gear in those shops in Jeuno? Are they insane? Good thing you know a guy. Or are brave enough to blindly message the name you see on the sales history in the Auction House to ask them to personally make you some gear. This is the point where it's less Consumption and moreso 'divergence'. The money isn't going straight to a sink, it's spreading out to many others who all still have many of the same sinks, and the Auction House fees are getting up there too, certainly compared to the relative pittance you are getting from Goblins and such, which seems to have barely kept pace, or worse, not at all.

Artisan Consumption Slot #4:
At this point things shift. It's less about a true consumption slot and more about the fact that diversity is now such a real thing that the inputs to the system (which mainly haven't increased as a whole, the same 'number of players' is still here) are 'automatically' evened out with all the necessities. We reached 'Artisan Consumption Saturation' around this point, but we also got 'Guild Contracts' to earn Guild Points for our officially-affiliated Artisanship guild by making things and just handing them over. This was so optional that it could swing from being a powerful sink to 'basically affecting nothing' on any given day, but that's where the 10K economy comes in. If getting your Guild Points is expensive today, don't do it. Optional. If it's cheap because of oversupply. Do it, Remove Supply. The Adventurers don't need to pay attention to if their stuff will sell, they will just relist it for less and it will get bought on the day when the Artisans need it, and off it goes, out of the Economy.

it's also at this point that things start to get complicated beyond what most non-Econ players care about, beyond what some Econ players understand, and where non-Econ Designers start to have to worry that they're going to cause trouble. Because something has created a balance. In FF11 it is a 'self-regulating balance', and one that relies almost entirely on player behaviour (the Guild Item hand-ins are, again, really optional). Beyond here, most people need the Whiteboard. The serious players need the Spreadsheet (or perfect recall memory). The Designers need Spreadsheets and other tools. The explanation would take another essay.

But the above is enough for most people who care to be able to point at a game and say 'this is why this feeling isn't working for me, this macro-slot isn't working right'. And Artisans can point at the Micro-slot that applies to their profession within the Macro-slot and debate if it is failing or if the problem is somewhere else.

For a simple example, one of the biggest complaints of my group about Ashes is that Artisan Progression Slot #3 seems to start way too early. The game attempts to solve this by having Gatherers and Processors, but this doesn't solve anything. Adventurers are going out to level, not bringing back materials for people to craft with. Artisans are going out to get materials that only other Artisans need and not progressing toward more materials. And no one is discovering any personal niches at all.

A similar complaint about Throne and Liberty is that, as mentioned, Currency Progression Slot #3 basically doesn't exist anymore. Since basically the only thing mobs really 'drop' is gear, and the demand for mid-tier gear will always be lower even with the Traiting system, getting drops that you can't personally use doesn't help your financial situation at all even if you specialize. Our entire concept of 'if TL will fix this' currently hinges on the hope that they understand that at least for level 40+ content/areas, they actually need to fix it or they will either bleed off less invested players or fall into that constant invalidation of old gear and content.

Both those examples are huge, 'Whiteboard tier' problems that don't even get into the Spreadsheets that determine 'why only Carphin matters' or 'the complete abandonment of Saurodoma Island'.

But for people who think 'from this basis', the holes are easy to see almost before you begin. We don't need 'treasure boxes' because those aren't a Niche, they're free loot on a hypercompetitive fast-track. We don't need 'a whole new pile of rare gatherables each used to make one cool new item if you happen to be really geared or familiar with the game'.

Both games need 'Things in the open world that you do only because no one else is interested or because you personally like it'. Both games have 'things that you can only do at certain times' which is definitely also an important and fun component of Currency Progression but it's trying to be Currency Progression Slot #4 without the supporting Slot #3. In order to not have everyone pile into X area as soon as Y Condition is met, they have to have something else they would rather be doing, and that 'something else' has to be either 'a different X area with a related/codependent Y Condition' or an actual Niche.

In Ashes this is worse because no Fast Travel. I'm not sure who in this age still believes that geographical distance can create gameplay niches by itself (not even meant to imply that the Intrepid team believes this) but since we know it doesn't, it shouldn't be surprising to us that when the game doesn't have its Niches in yet, 'everyone goes to Carphin'.

FF11 was 'blessed' by either intentional or accidental positive outcomes for this. They somehow hit the perfect storm of niches from the start. This one isn't bias, it's a Whiteboard worth of interconnected minutiae that carried the game's Economy even through the times when a lot of the actual moment-to-moment of it was quite bad.

So Ashes 'has no reason not to go to Carphin/Highwayman Hills' and TL has no 'Avolos spawns at night in Manawastes', both games are early, but by comparison to FF11 the main takeaway on that point is... Not everyone rushed to Jeuno(Hub City), not everyone fought more Crabs (Qufim Island). And we're talking about Adventurers, who did exactly that. They adventured, and they brought back things, and then they (or someone else) also Crafted. And it wasn't 'a waste of their time', not because 'it was perfectly efficient', but because the Economy style meant that there was no such thing as perfectly efficient.

Well, for anyone who actually read through all that, I salute you!

It's just so I can reference things like "Lack of Currency Consumption Slot #4:" in conversation though. Eventually I have to write even more for Micro-slots, because if not here, then I either have to scatter these through stuff with way too much preamble... or give up.

I still want an awesome MMORPG. I don't want to give up.

Keep it up, Intrepid Team.