Best Of

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Death of a Game: Tera
Death of a Game: Lineage 2
Death of a Game: Archeage
Death of a Game: Aion

Ok I finally got the time to check out the videos. Your initial assertion was:

in reality it was mainly their P2W cash shop intertangled with the enchanting system literally selling power.

that killed the games.

That's not really what he is saying for Tera, L2 and Aion. It was several things, and P2W was an issue, for sure, but not THE main thing. For Archeage, the change in the cash shop after the game released was probably what killed it. It was like a bait and switch tactic that rightfully pissed people off.

A lot of people don't have a problem with some P2W aspects, even in the west. Buying gold, items or services for RL money is very popular in many MMOs, and that is also a form of P2W. Here is an article straight from one of the sites selling those services: https://g2g-blog.g2g.com/blog/top-mmorpg-for-gold-farm-in-2018/ It's still a very big industry, apparently. It was estimated to be around a billion dollar industry 15 years ago. I don't have any current numbers.

For me, and everyone I have talked to about it, it's the RNG aspect that makes it really bad. It's gambling, with the potential to lose EVERYTHING you paid/grinded for by the roll of a die. All four games you listed also had a huge grinding component to the game, but whether you spent RL money or many, many hours grinding, it's the RNG that could take it all away. It's similar to loot boxes in some ways. Loot boxes are banned in some countries now for good reason.

It's one thing to grind for days or weeks, or to open your wallet and pay for an advantage. I would guess a majority of MMO players in the west dislike those mechanics, and it's bad overall game design for the western audience I think. However, as long as players get to keep what they paid or grinded for, I think there is a western niche market for such a game, as long as the rest of the gameplay is good. But if they also add RNG elements that can completely remove any gains from the grind or cash shop, I'd wager the game will die real quick.

If over-enchanting in Ashes has a mechanic where days or weeks of grinding and farming can be nullified by unlucky RNG, leaving the player with nothing because the item blew up, that will have a huge negative impact on the game. To repeat myself, it's just really bad game design. That kind of system belongs in a casino, not in Ashes.

If food has a shelf-life, potions should, too.

NiKr wrote: »

I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it

Probably the best idea, its not like we can ever change Noaani's mind about Lineage 2 or its grind and systems, but its completely fine, no matter how loud Noaani complains about Lineage 2 systems and tries to diminish it, it still is one of Steven's main inspirations for Ashes and that will be felt in the game. Lets move on.

I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

Prelude
Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
.Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
.Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
Interlude
The Kamael
Hellbound (Update)
Gracia Part 1
Gracia Part 2 (Update)
Gracia Final
Gracia Epilogue (Update)
Freya
High Five Part 1
High Five Part 2 (Update)
High Five Part 3 (Update)
High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
High Five Part 5 (Update)
Harmony
Tauti
Glory Days
Echo
Power of the West Wind
Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
Episodeon
Valiance / Raiders
Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
Infinite Odyssey
Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
Helios
Grand Crusade
Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
Fafurion
Prelude of War
Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
Homunculus
Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
Return of the Queen Ant
Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
Master Class
Master Class Ch.2 (Update)

I was looking through this list and noticed that you missed Awakening.

Even I - as someone that has not played the game and you all like to point out that his means I know nothing about it - knows that Awakening was the biggest update for L2 when it launched in like 2011 or 2012 or something.

Any reason it's missing?

Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta, not long after i left the official servers.

L2 suffered the same issue as swg though. Text bubble merchant lag lol.

Noaani wrote: »

One day, L2 players will understand that nothing in that game outside of PvP is anything special. It is the basic level of the original EQ, but with PvP added. All MMO's since EQ have taken that same basic formula and added other things to it - in the case of EQ2 it added an entire layer of PvE content - as well as combat system - complexity on top of the basic EQ game.

From the little amount of other mmos I've played (if I'm remembering them correctly cause for some it's been years), only BDO had big grouping of mobs, though even there you had to pull most of them yourself cause only a few would agro right away. FF14 was just a solo experience so barely any social agro at all. B&S was kinda the same. WoW mainly had long agro, but even with mobs from the same type/faction you could still pull singular mobs from a group just by slowly approaching them.

I'm not saying that L2 is end all and be all. It was just the main mmo I've played so I'm literally stating the things I liked from it. The same way a WoW-main would do when describing things they liked in WoW. The things I've stated also were in contrast to the system Azhrae described, which is why I said that I preferred the system I was more familiar with, but ultimately didn't care what Intrepid would go with.

I couldn't give fewer shits if L2 stole all its mechanics or somehow invented them all on the spot. I'm sure that the things people like in EQ came from somewhere too. If I'd played EQ instead of L2 back when I got into mmos, I'd be giving examples from it in just the same way I'm doing with L2. And some other "akshually" person would say that EQ's features were taken from UO or some other shit. Which in turn was inspired by some ancient MUDs which came from D&D which stemmed from fantasy novels which came from irl escapism of some medieval dudes who had a bit too much to drink and got a vivid imagination. And all it started with a big bang HEY

Noaani wrote: »

Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?).

40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.