Best Of
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
How do you feel about the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
The fog, dust, bloom, and sunrays were far too rampant and too extreme. They need to be dialed back as it makes it impossible to see anything.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
I'm concerned about the lack of contesting parties being shown, since this is a PvX game. What happens if another group comes and fights you during the event? I think this is an important part of the game that needs to be represented in the streams.
I thought the part where the NPC was walking to the altar was a bit undercooked. You want this to be a memorable character, not just a moving jpg. I think in general, the Citadel was not showcased in a very flattering way. I think it would have been a good idea for Steven to hop on a flying mount for a couple seconds to give an aerial view of the dungeon.
I also think Firebrand shouldnt just be sitting idle after spawning in and flying down, but I guess that was likely just for the stream. He should have playful idle animations, sleeping animations, nesting animations, etc.
Firebrand Mechanics:
I thought the first phase of Firebrand was a little lacking mechanics wise, but I think it picked up a lot during the second phase. I really liked the flame devouring mechanic that buffs his damage, but also saw someone mention a mechanic where Firebrand could trap someone in a ball of flame and devour them if the group doesnt perform an action (maybe a DPS check or some other thing).
I also think that a prevalent problem with the mobs and bosses in ashes is they don't do anything EXCEPT damage or applying debuffs. I would expect things like the tail swipe to launch players out of position if they are hit. I would expect slam moves to knock people down. I would expect roaring attacks to silence people.
Are there similar areas or enemies you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Placidusax from Elden Ring: https://youtu.be/Xc5jJvPOeWo
Bayle from the Elden Ring DLC: https://youtu.be/ZY3yT174dGg
The fog, dust, bloom, and sunrays were far too rampant and too extreme. They need to be dialed back as it makes it impossible to see anything.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
I'm concerned about the lack of contesting parties being shown, since this is a PvX game. What happens if another group comes and fights you during the event? I think this is an important part of the game that needs to be represented in the streams.
I thought the part where the NPC was walking to the altar was a bit undercooked. You want this to be a memorable character, not just a moving jpg. I think in general, the Citadel was not showcased in a very flattering way. I think it would have been a good idea for Steven to hop on a flying mount for a couple seconds to give an aerial view of the dungeon.
I also think Firebrand shouldnt just be sitting idle after spawning in and flying down, but I guess that was likely just for the stream. He should have playful idle animations, sleeping animations, nesting animations, etc.
Firebrand Mechanics:
I thought the first phase of Firebrand was a little lacking mechanics wise, but I think it picked up a lot during the second phase. I really liked the flame devouring mechanic that buffs his damage, but also saw someone mention a mechanic where Firebrand could trap someone in a ball of flame and devour them if the group doesnt perform an action (maybe a DPS check or some other thing).
I also think that a prevalent problem with the mobs and bosses in ashes is they don't do anything EXCEPT damage or applying debuffs. I would expect things like the tail swipe to launch players out of position if they are hit. I would expect slam moves to knock people down. I would expect roaring attacks to silence people.
Are there similar areas or enemies you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Placidusax from Elden Ring: https://youtu.be/Xc5jJvPOeWo
Bayle from the Elden Ring DLC: https://youtu.be/ZY3yT174dGg
Re: will this game ever launch
we all respect the hard work the team is putting in and we understand that development can take time, however at some point we need to start asking the questions and stop using this as the narrative. Everybody here loves how ambitious the project is and stevens vision but i think its about time intrepid stop treating the people funding this project like we are naive children
there are a a hardcore group of intrepid fans that make any negative post on the forums almost obsolete because every time one is made they rush to intrepid's defense like intrepid is developing the cure for cancer.
its about time that intrepid start answering the real questions we have and stop beating around the bush, every single live stream at this point feels like we are watching a bunch of politicians, and every question chosen for the ama's are just the select few that can be answered without giving out any information.
we need to stop using '' what other company is this transparent '' as a defensive mechanism because that can only go so far when you realize that that this game has been funded through the community following the project, obviously we understand that steven has put in his personal funds but also steven will be the one that benefits once the game is complete, i think we are in the ball park of what 40+ million dollars funded by the community on pre order packs and keys, so obviously the company should be transparent that is expected at this point..
120$ for an alpha 2 key is ridiculous, AAA games are selling finished games for less than this, and as we all know steven's background in sales, stating '' don't buy this if you are looking for a finished game '' but then adding FOMO elements to packages, just contradict each other, furthurmore everyone that got FOMO'd into buying A2 for 250$ when packages were apparently ending and then bringing them back for half the price should be borderline illegal,
i have heared you are saying this is not a game and then saying that it is a game within the same sentence whilst delivering your '' dont buy this if you want to play a full game speech '' at this point we all know what you are doing, the packs are a cash grab and if you need cash be transparent about it.
it also needs to be said that intrepid are stating in the livestreams that they NEED testers yet putting it behind a paywall is just insane, atleast pay the people testing for you with in game time or embers or something
now for the real questions, i personally believe that the game is looking great, i love the visuals and i think that what we have seen has come a long way, but what we have seen is probably 1/10th of what is planned, and we are 8 years into development, we have continuously missed without fail every deadline intrepid has ever given us, the character creator was suppose the be released before A2 when A2 had a Q3 release date, and this is not a direct quote but something along the lines was said that it was basically finished, yet we have only ever seen the same two models over and over again, all models look basically the same on the live streams, the dwarf looks terrible, yet we have videos two years old of the character creator pretty much being fleshed out
its been stated A2 will last a year + from the real release of pretty much Q3 2025, so i would guess that with the way development goes over at intrepid we will have a 9 month delay from A2 to the betas and then they will drag out with missed timelines just like the previous A1/A2, we have waited 3 years for A2 since A1 and the one thing that was promised '' a persistent up time until launch '' has also been removed, you can spin it however you want but people bought in with expectations that A2 would be up 24/7 from release and that is the way that it was sold to us
we have still not seen
any secondaries
Naval content
nodes higher than level 3
16/18 biomes?
the rogue
the summoner
bounty hunting
duels
monster coins
the list goes on and on and would take me to long to type out, the content planned for A2 sounds good on paper, when you deep dive into every system announced realistically its very lackluster and will most likely have a content drought a week or two in.
after alpha 2 we are most likely going to be 11-12 years into development, thats 1/3rd or more of most of our lives, there are people that have purchased packs here expecting to play in 2020 like it was stated in the kickstarter that are no longer with us due to dying of old age before this game was released, this is not shade its just facts,
intrepid you can develop the most beautiful game in the world and show us tiny portions of this during the live stream but it all means nothing if the game never gets past development, as someone that did purcahse into the game and did so to support the company and vision '' i will add i don't regret this decision '' but i will be honest its time that we would like to see where all our money has gone, 40 million dollars plus in crowd funding its about time you are open with us and give us a real time line or road map, as the latest live stream was just a kick in the face to anyone that has really been following this project
im ready for all the hate this post will get and for the intrepid hardcore fans to come out of the woodwork to defend their Messiah, but you know what i don't care.
I'll take the bait. The game is progressing nicely. No complaints about the timeline. You mention, and then agree with the ambition of the project, but then want it faster. You can't have both.
The monetization, is talked about in 9 other topics on the first page of this forum.
Time table wise, we will have to wait as they make something good. We can see the effort and progress, so it's not like they are sitting on their hands. What else do you want?
"Are we there yet?"
No, we are not there yet.
yes i would like it done faster, its crazy that this has become the narrative to make people look bad by wanting this, we are 40 million dollars plus in donations to this game so yes after 8 years i would like the game to be past A2 by now, when we are still 4-5 years + from a release from what i can see
There were clearly challenges and meaningful changes that needed to happen.
There may be more. Intrepid is a small studio in a specific sense, even now. They're barely growing out of it.
You get updates every month, and you, yourself, have almost always been positive or mostly-positive toward the updates. Steven has never done this before, and that means he has to be given some leeway to make mistakes, change his mind on things, etc.
In the meantime, if you show your support for the ideas of Ashes, other games will come. They will be reminded of the old days when those ideas still had a foothold and they will start to put them back into their MMORPGs.
Just play those games until Ashes comes out.
I'm not trying to 'apologize' for things like the AMA Livestream, I didn't like it either, but what's the point of the negativity toward the game itself?
If you rag on Steven, he will probably face that, but 'it's time to see where our money has gone'... just assume that what you see is what they have managed so far, and if you're super disappointed by that, then... what?
"You're slow and you're making mistakes!" changes nothing.
i agree he has never done this before, but you know what he has done? Sales, and many of them, and what he is doing with the A2 keys is straight cringe and steven should know better,
Chicago
1
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
In a recent Discord discussion, Steven confirmed that the plan for Ashes of Creation includes allowing rewards from 20% of instanced content. While this may seem like a balanced approach, it raises significant concerns about maintaining the integrity of the game’s open-world design.
The moment you introduce power gains from PvE instancing, it sets off a chain reaction that inevitably leads to similar PvP instancing with rewards. This progression is harmful to the game’s open-world experience and its foundational vision.
1) Detracting from the Open-World Experience:
The true strength of Ashes of Creation lies in its commitment to an immersive, open-world environment where players interact dynamically and meaningfully. Introducing instanced content with power gains pulls players away from this shared world, reducing the richness of player interactions and the world itself.
2) The Domino Effect:
Once PvE instancing with rewards is established, there will be pressure to provide comparable PvP instancing with rewards. This further fragments the player base, drawing them into isolated scenarios rather than encouraging them to participate in the larger, open-world environment.
3) Learning from Other Games:
Many MMORPGs, like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online, have become "faux open-world" games where instanced content dominates the endgame. These games often favor PvE over PvP, leading to a lopsided experience where PvP is diminished and the open world feels less relevant. Ashes of Creation has the opportunity to avoid this pitfall and offer a truly unique experience.
4)The Potential of Open-World PvE:
There’s a strong argument that the best PvE experiences can and should be open-world. Intrepid Studios has the opportunity to implement creative and innovative solutions, such as multi-tiered open-world dungeons and environments. These could offer high skill ceiling PvE mechanics while maintaining the ever-present risk of PvP. Such content would be reserved for the best players, challenging them to master both the environment and their fellow players in a truly dynamic setting.
Addressing Steven Sharif's Quote:
Steven Sharif stated, "There is more than enough space to fill with regards to reward tables and the open vs instanced content. While the instanced content may not include the added risk of player vs player, it also means that the control setting is higher and capable of involving more rigid gameplay mechanics that can be quite tough and high on the skill ceiling."
While it is true that instanced content allows for more controlled settings and challenging gameplay, this approach risks undermining the core vision of Ashes of Creation. Instead of focusing on instanced content, the game should emphasize creating complex and challenging scenarios within the open world itself. This would keep players engaged with the environment and each other, preserving the risk and dynamic interactions that define the game’s unique appeal.
Conclusion:
To preserve the integrity and appeal of Ashes of Creation, instanced content should be carefully balanced. Power gains should remain tied to the open world, ensuring that players stay engaged with the core vision of the game—an immersive, interconnected world where player interactions and exploration are key. By implementing creative, open-world PvE content with high skill ceilings and maintaining the risk of PvP, Intrepid Studios can deliver a truly unique and dynamic MMORPG experience.
This is one very long slippery slope fallacy with a lot of assertions and nothing connecting them.
Also player housing will have the same effect except on a much larger scale with no power involved.
Also, also, most games have 100% instanced dungeons and raids. Bitching about only getting 80% makes you sound entitled and ungrateful. Be happy with the win. Prioritize the game being great over getting the exact thing you want.
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
If you want to be taken seriously in a discussion, don't make numbers up.58 million dollars in ‘85 says otherwise, good is perspective, it’s an all time top selling game.
Super Mario sold over $70 million within the first three months of it's release, in Japan alone. Inflation adjusted, that would come to about $200 million now.
However, I have no idea why you are making up fake numbers for a game in a different genre, on a different platform, from a different millennium. I mean, it's not like you've made an argument with it, you just introduced it falsely stating it was good PvE, then you made up fake sales figures for it.
Honestly, what kind of reaction is it you expect someone to have to that?
Noaani
2
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
I hope this game has some RP servers. I use to run guilds in AoC (Age of Conan) and SWTOR and then tired myself out of hardcore raiding in games like EQ2, FFXI, and WOW. I now am a solo player as I haven't gotten as much time as the youth and I'm fine with that. I plan on doing some RP in this game and i will be mainly based off of being a exiled Paladin living off the lands hiding from the evil powers at hand that ruined my name. That will be my start to the game and I shall go from there. lol
With all of that being said I believe solo players can also have fun in this game as long as you set a goal of what you want to achieve. You can be a crafter and do work for a guild, or you can hire a group to farm mats for you. You can be someone that is a sword for hire. Watching a lot of anime maybe guilds can make quest for solo players to do. Watching this game for a while now it seems like there can be unlimited possibilities as long as players are willing to put in the work and make the game welcoming for everyone of all play styles.
With all of that being said I believe solo players can also have fun in this game as long as you set a goal of what you want to achieve. You can be a crafter and do work for a guild, or you can hire a group to farm mats for you. You can be someone that is a sword for hire. Watching a lot of anime maybe guilds can make quest for solo players to do. Watching this game for a while now it seems like there can be unlimited possibilities as long as players are willing to put in the work and make the game welcoming for everyone of all play styles.
Eastrid
1
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
This is meant to be a social mmo.
And it is for multiplayers.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
It is going to be social, and it will have group content.
It doesn't mean that you should be grouped up whenever you log in to the game. It's silly.
I guess I'm having a hard time explaining this, and I see the exact same argument popping up from time to time.
Groups are there to do group content with, which the game will have plenty of. That's the social and multiplayer aspect, as you will spend more time doing that, than in any other recent MMO.
That however does not mean there should not be single player, or solo content. If I want to go out and explore, kill some mobs, level up, do some questing, or do whatever I want to, I shouldn't be held back by not being in a group. That's the content you should always be able to do solo.
The reasons why someone might play solo are numerous.
For example:
- If I only have 3-4 hours to play the game every day, I can allocate some of that time for playing with friends, or fellow guild members. However, I do want some freedom in how I spend my time in game. Being in a group does not allow for such freedom, as it's often about compromise, and you want to not inconvenience others you are playing with, the same way you do not want them to inconvenience you. This sometimes means you will do stuff together, even if you would rather do something else in game.
- This also means that if I'm playing with a group, and we are doing something, I cannot just pack my bags and leave suddenly to do something else, or log off.
- In general, I like doing what I want to do, whenever I want to do it. As a solo player, I can simply go from one activity to another instantly, while in a group it's not that simple.
- You just don't feel like dealing with/talking to people.
You are incentivized to group up for various things, for security, to actually be able to do a lot of the content, etc. The stuff you are incentivized to group up for, will also make you stronger.
The game shouldn't further disincentivize solo players by punishing them for playing solo. They are already at a big disadvantage.
---
The thing is, some design choices will inevitably make "solo players" suffer. Because such a huge portion of content is locked behind groups, some hard-locked (you simply cannot complete content solo), some soft-locked (you can in theory do it, but realistically you won't be able to).
OP made several examples. Caravans are one of them.
- In Archeage, you always had an option of less risky, or even risk-free option of doing solo trade-runs. Or if you actually wanted to make good money, there was risk of PvP, so you'd usually group up.
- In Ashes, it's always going to be a risk to run caravans, and if you are solo, it's really, really risky. But the thing is, it's risky also for groups, because there are always going to be larger groups preying on them.
This simply turns into a bigger group = win, for most of the content available. So the discussion shouldn't even really be about solo players, but about how bigger numbers will always be better in this game.
I do not share a lot of OPs concerns regarding group play, as I feel like many of these things have to be done in a group, for a good reason, but they do bring up some valid points around groups, and how small groups or solo players are often going to be at a heavy disadvantage.
Is there a way to fix that, without compromising the key pillars of this game? I'm not sure it's possible, or if it is, I'm not sure how you do it.
iccer
1
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content.
Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials.
Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot.
Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700
Caeryl
3
Re: Loot System Changes
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
There's a fundamentally flawed assumption that's it either '90% of the party gets nothing' and 'anyone who breathes near the boss gets super good loot'.
Having tiered loot like already mentioned is the best way to ensure no one is walking away with nothing to show as long as they've contributed enough for whatever merit threshold is put in place, similar to the mob tagging system.
Tier 1: The basic crafting materials based on Gatherer ranks, personal loot and only useful after entering the player crafting networks. Default: Common quality in small amounts, quality and amount adjusted based on specific Gathering levels and perk selections
Tier 2: General recipes and craft plans based on Crafting rank, % based drop and useless without the materials
Tier 3: Full gear, rare enchantment stones, trophy item, etc etc, the Rares: Bid system.
I don't think Lootmaster has any place in a healthy game climate. It's far too easily misused and there's no recourse for shitty behavior. (Just look at EQ to see how useless a social blackslist would be). If people want one person handing out loot, then that can happen organically after looting occurs with everyone willingly giving up their drops to be handed out. And if they don't want to do that? Well, sounds like the guild did a bad job inspiring guild loyalty.
In a game where they want a high amount of socializing and the politicking that comes with it, they shouldn't be using a loot system that enables risk-free bad behavior with high probability of nothing awarded for taking on difficult content. It a recipe for a barren PvE landscape where no one wants to bother trying to enter into it.
Caeryl
5
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Why would anyone make themselves the Work of (hopefully) tough Instances - if there is not a single gain from it ?
An Ingredient. A Jewel. A whatever. Something People can use. Be it Artisan-Crafter Items or direct Drops. Our neighboring Nodes and Competition won't sleep. Will we be able to invest Hours for Hours into something that will not help us in any form of Power ?
An Ingredient. A Jewel. A whatever. Something People can use. Be it Artisan-Crafter Items or direct Drops. Our neighboring Nodes and Competition won't sleep. Will we be able to invest Hours for Hours into something that will not help us in any form of Power ?
Aszkalon
1