Best Of
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Why would anyone make themselves the Work of (hopefully) tough Instances - if there is not a single gain from it ?
An Ingredient. A Jewel. A whatever. Something People can use. Be it Artisan-Crafter Items or direct Drops. Our neighboring Nodes and Competition won't sleep. Will we be able to invest Hours for Hours into something that will not help us in any form of Power ?
An Ingredient. A Jewel. A whatever. Something People can use. Be it Artisan-Crafter Items or direct Drops. Our neighboring Nodes and Competition won't sleep. Will we be able to invest Hours for Hours into something that will not help us in any form of Power ?
Aszkalon
1
Re: What surprised you in the FireBrand fight?
I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.
I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.
In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?
I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.
That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)
I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.
and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.
sherlock holmes has arrived
Guy thinks he's Moriarty -sighs- If I were Intrepid I'd be really annoyed you all keep talking down to Laetitian like this. Real over protective soccer mom energy when they just wanna have a good game.
JustVine
1
Re: What surprised you in the FireBrand fight?
I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.
I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.
In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?
I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.
That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)
I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.
and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.
sherlock holmes has arrived
The problem with the way you defend Intrepid/engage other posters is that if you're wrong, it's really demoralizing.
These types of feedback don't come from thin air, Intrepid tells us things that imply we are supposed to be at least a little impressed. This whole thread came from the idea that the designer of the dragon said the dragon might do something surprising.
It could simply be that the situation to trigger the surprising mechanic never came up, and it's supposed to surprise us in A2 when we fight it ourselves.
Or it could be that the dev thought they really came up with something unique and were wrong. Stop being a dick to people who want to help in the second case.
Azherae
2
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
I don't share that worry. The Rock Paper Scissor system means that 2 Archetypes are strong against 2 others, with clerics and Bards standing on the outside and applauding the slaughter.
So a "meta" of tank-clerics as an example is easily broken by primary Mages or primary Summoners which are strong archetypes against bruiser Archetypes (Tank & Fighter). So other classes facing a "meta" build can just look at the counters of that, build that and break those builds.
Sometimes with enough player skill adjusting the secondary archetype or adjusting the talents on skills or weapon mastery may suffice to break a meta build,
sometimes restricting the resources to get the gear for that build can be enough because it requires a specific set to work
and in very extreme cases it might result in people switching their main character to counter the meta builds.
My point is: There are a lot of systems planned & implemented that were made with the intent to allow for fast (but not free) build adjustments, which will IMO be used to break meta builds before they emerge.
So a "meta" of tank-clerics as an example is easily broken by primary Mages or primary Summoners which are strong archetypes against bruiser Archetypes (Tank & Fighter). So other classes facing a "meta" build can just look at the counters of that, build that and break those builds.
Sometimes with enough player skill adjusting the secondary archetype or adjusting the talents on skills or weapon mastery may suffice to break a meta build,
sometimes restricting the resources to get the gear for that build can be enough because it requires a specific set to work
and in very extreme cases it might result in people switching their main character to counter the meta builds.
My point is: There are a lot of systems planned & implemented that were made with the intent to allow for fast (but not free) build adjustments, which will IMO be used to break meta builds before they emerge.
Kilion
3
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
It isn't a case of what Intrepid can and can not do, it is a case what is possible and what is not.
It’s gotta be, “they won’t be able to design a good encounter in the open world that takes precision!!”, you haven’t the faintest clue what Intrepid can cook up.
If I have 2 cups of water, and an enclosed vessal that holds one cup, there is no way I can get those two cups of water in that vessal. It is just not possible - physics does not work that way.
If we assume one cup of that water is PvP, and one cup of that water is PvE, the one cup vessal is the cap of player capability assuming highly skilled, highly coordernated players with the right mic of characters in some of the best gear in the game (not having any of these things just means you have a smaller vessal).
No matter what happens, those two cups of water are still not going to fit in to that one cup vessal. It just doesn't work that way.This made me laugh.Vanilla Molten Core
Vanilla molten core is about the difficulty and quality I expect Ashes raids to be.There are a LOT of games that have tried, and literally every single one has failed.There’s a lot of raids in the MMORPG universe that are bloody difficult and can be open world.
There is not a single example in all of MMORPG gaming of an actual difficult raid encounter that exists in a PvP enabled setting.
Not one example.
I have a sneaking suspicion you’ve never actually done MC.
Just like, I have a sneaking suspicion you just look at YouTube videos and write them off, mostly because through out the years that’s been part of your MO.
There’s no proof of success like there’s no proof of your EQ difficulty.
Another day Noanni is full of shit.
You can think what ever you want.
Fact is, Molten Core (vanilla WoW in general) was designed to appeal to people that didn't know what an MMORPG even was. Blizzards target market for WoW was existing Blizzard game players - specifically Diablo and Warcraft players.
At the time, people did indeed consider MC to be difficult. But that is because it was the first real raid that most of the people that took it on had ever attempted.
Noaani
1
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
Power already exists in instanced PvP and as a direct result of instanced PvP. Clearly if that fundamental gameplay mechanic was a deal breaker for you, you’d already be long gone, so what’s the deal? What are you actually complaining about??
Im going to correct your ignorance on sieges only once. As of now, castle sieges are PvX, the player power comes from one of the three raid bosses (PvE). The political power of entire alliance comes from sieges, but that system isn’t even complete.
Read the wiki a little more carefully if you bothered at all.
And I’ve already voiced my preference for castles being open world way before you showed up on the forums.
Can you start by reading my posts accurately before you harp on someone not reading the wiki? You've misread posts multiple times now which make trying to discuss anything with you frustrating, to put it lightly. (Not helped by your lack of clarity, apparent misunderstanding of the systems as they're designed, along with not knowing what 'instanced' means in the context of Ashes of Creation.)
Castle seiges (which I've never even mentioned anywhere in this thread) are objective-based PvP events, which you ought to know considering you took part in one. The existence of an objective does not negate that it's a PvP event. The only time it's a PvX encounter is the first capture, an I have no doubt it's not going to be remotely considered 'top-end' bosses considering it's designed for the express purpose of being cleared out to promote player politicking.
Also, instanced content is planned there too already.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Castle_siegesThere may be instanced locations within otherwise open-world castle and node sieges, where specific groups can participate in small, short duration objective-based battles that will affect the overall outcome of the siege.[12]
It was previously stated that castle sieges may or may not be (entirely) instanced in the final game.[13]
Alpha-1 castle sieges occurred in an open-world zone that was accessible via a NPC teleporter.[14][15][13][16]
Dungeons being open but the final boss encounters being instanced to allow for more finely-tuned combat encounters falls entirely in line with how the PvP events are being handled. ' Fight all the way here but only one group/guild/whatever can take their shot at the boss.' Open world to a point, and then they can really crank up the difficulty where no zerging of a boss can happen.
The point of instancing pieces of content is so Intrepid can design around a set amount of participants. This is necessary in order to create high-end, highly demanding PvE encounters that only 1% of players will ever clear. They can't design a challenge without knowing how many people will be running around in the combat space. If the answer is "however many want to run in there" then the encounter has to be dumbed down to facilitate a clear in the face of PvP.
It's the same reason Node Seiges are set to be instanced (aka restricted participation), scheduled PvP events during which the node essentially is turned off until it's successfully defended, if it's successfully defended. Restricting non-registered players effectively means the seige happens in its own little world until the event concludes. If they don't have that common-sense restriction, then they'll find node sieges getting extremely chaotic under influence of people 'joining' just to troll objectives while there's nothing that can be done about them.
The only instanced “PvP” event so far were sieges. It was both PvP and PvE simultaneously, the dragons (PvE) dropped the power. Destroying assets is PvE.
Good lord. Well, if nothing else thank you for confirming you don't know the difference between a PvP objective and a PvE encounter. Certainly puts the whole thread into perspective.
I’ve been raiding for years. I know what an encounter is.
Your behavior is the exact reason why I’m short with you, a lot but not all “1%” raiders are actually insufferable. Being given the chance, you’re just as annoying and selfish as they come.
Raiders are PvErs.
Most of the game is PvE. There can never be enough PvE for you.
It’s gotta be, “they won’t be able to design a good encounter in the open world that takes precision!!”, you haven’t the faintest clue what Intrepid can cook up.
You won’t run the risk of something like Vanilla Molten Core in an open setting.
Even though they could literally build something similar to open world MC, you just might get gated from the content.
There’s a lot of raids in the MMORPG universe that are bloody difficult and can be open world.
This alone is enough to demonstrate you don't understand the what the terms actually mean.
Node wars are also PvX, because PvP and PvE will occur simultaneously. (Destroying assets is literally Players destroying the environment)
You didn't list a single game that had high-precision PvE encounters in an open world, open PvP space. The one you mentioned:
- had PvP disabled by default,
- had a small player count per server compared to most modern MMOs
- had its primary high-end content (Gauntlet) instanced
The only bits of PvP combat I could find were two people just smacking each other over nothing or some random mob. The PvP server also had to get chat deleted because people were being that abusive in it. The vast majority of videos that exist are from emulated servers post it closing down in 2017, which are a whole lot of nothing when we're talking about what approach an active MMO with a healthy playerbase engaging in all tiers of content should take.
You haven't demonstrated anything to sway anyone into thinking we should toss out genuinely difficult PvE in favor of only watered down PvP slap fights over a relatively basic boss in the open world like the dragon showcase this past week.
All you've done is talk nonsense that goes against common sense, not refuted any of the points made, and resorted to immature petty insults. I'll consider you being annoyed as positive, as you certainly aren't someone whose ideas hold up to any scrutiny. You didn't even try to defend them in any meaningful way.
Edit: Honestly, this in pairing with *that rant about Ashes not being solo friendly due to group PvP is (unintentional) comedy of the highest caliber. No one is happy apparently.
Caeryl
3
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
We'd noticed whilst watching the fight, whilst Steven was reviving a downed player, the dragon was hitting him with AoE's and Steven was still able to continue reviving whilst taking damage. I've not watched the fight back thoroughly on YouTube yet but during the stream we didn't see any casting knockback or interrupts.
The folks in our guild voice channel think that it'd be good if those types of abilities could interrupt or knockback spell cast progression.
The folks in our guild voice channel think that it'd be good if those types of abilities could interrupt or knockback spell cast progression.
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Bard Archetype Preview Shown in July Livestream
First off I would like to congratulate the team on a job well done! The overall Bard arch-type has a great identity and hits much of what my wish list for bards is.
Bucky great job, love all the work you put into the bard along with the rest of the team.
Essentially feel the same way as Greek here. +1
Re: Current Combat in Ashes: Updated
I love that this topic is finally getting more attention. I've brought it up in many livestreams and streams from Ashes content creators, but it often felt like I was in the minority for caring about combat. It’s surprising to me that more people haven’t upvoted questions about this or provided feedback on the issue.
For over a year, I’ve been saying that combat is definitely the weakest part of Ashes of Creation, and it worries me the most as someone who has been following and supporting the game since Kickstarter. While I’m not concerned about the environment, assets, or overall scope of the game—they’re clearly heading in the right direction there—the combat feels so lackluster that it could potentially ruin the whole experience for me if it’s not drastically improved.
It’s not just about the combat, but also the general animations like running, which lack a sense of weight. In the forum thread for the last livestream, I mentioned that the animations and combat look stiff, and here are my main concerns:
- Stiff Animations: The transitions and fluidity of movements are lacking, making combat feel rigid and unnatural.
- Missing Weight: Characters don't feel like they have any physical presence or impact in the world, which detracts from the immersion.
- Limited Body Animations: It seems like not enough body parts are animated, leading to a lack of dynamism and realism in movements.
I’d love to see the developers focus on improving these aspects, perhaps by looking at how other successful games achieve more fluid and weighty combat systems. It’s important for the community to come together and voice these concerns, as improving combat could significantly enhance the overall experience of the game.
This is a divisive issue though.
You're probably in the minority by now. Someone does bring it up in their feedback, nearly every livestream, often with comparisons.
But there are just as many (probably far more) people who think it's great as is. Just a style thing.
Azherae
1
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
That is because you can have PvP in an open world setting without needing to curtail the quality of that PvP. You can not have PvE in an open world setting (PvP or not, honestly) at it's highest quality.Raiders get uppity about it, notice no arena or battleground enjoyers are up in arms and flailing about.
Put another way, a game with open world PvP and no instances is not saying they will only have second rate PvP. A game with open world PvE and no instances is specifically saying they will only have second rate PvE.
There are many other things in this game that PvP players have complained about. However, they complain about things that affect the quality of PvP, they don't (generally) complain about things that do not. Same with PvE players, they don't (generally) complain about things that have no impact on PvE, but will complain about things that do.
I don't know if this is something you simply don't understand (PvE and PvP are affected by the same things, but in different ways), or if you do know this and are just trying to make an argument regardless of how bad it is. Either way, you really aren't making any good arguments here.
Noaani
3