Best Of
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
Visuals
The environment is always pretty good and not an area of concern (from everything i've seen for the last several years). I feel the goal of variation, complexity & scale of the play spaces being of the upmost importance to making immersive and interesting environments is understood by the devs, so i'm not worried.
I find the colours overall to still feel washed out and bland. I've said before for an UE5 game, this doesn't look as impressive as pretty much all other UE5 games i've seen (and i watch in 4k on YT).
The spell effects still feel too overpowering; i will keep hammering on this point forever: tone it down a few notches & add spell visual progression so things only get messy in the late game (and hopefully only for really powerful spells!)
Fine details looked really good as usual so keep it up!
UI needs to be spiced up & given some flavour! it's a bit too minimalist - but it does look clean!
Gameplay
The group combat looks decent but animations looked choppy (I know you've acknowledges this being network related but still needs to be mentioned).
The mechanic for the Lady of the Rose event was extremely simplistic and uninspired, as are the names of many things i've seen in the game thus far. The quest should have involved more exploration of the space and not just running up the stairs a few yards ahead of where you summoned the Lady? Maybe you had to find clues or a relic within the Citadel that you had to bring somewhere to summon her.
This is being touted as a 'next generation' MMO and to me there are some non negotiables in relation to gameplay details that need to addressed: MOB AI needs to just be a lot better & more dynamic. Monsters just standing still is what you expect in an MMO from early 2000s; give them character and life! have them interact with one another and move around at least a bit if they aren't supposed to be patrolling. During combat have them CC intelligently and move around make tactical decisions so you actually have to pay attention and it doesn't become too mindless too soon. Each type of mob should have a distinctive personality ie. casters generally try and keep distance and maybe snare melee or players approaching them more often, while rogue-like mobs go for ranged players more often and have anti-mage spells.
Create challenge though complex & dynamic MOB AI and not just hp/dmg. Give them a good amount of different abilities (take some from the player abilities you dont have to make all brand new ones!) so they aren't just all damage sponges you afk dps. THAT is next generation enemy gameplay!
The Dragon visually was great and its abilities were a good start for an alpha. I think you guys can make the fight so much more intense and immersive and truly next generation by:
adding more abilities, especially ones that force non tanks to move around that aren't just circular wave AOEs from the boss
Making more use of the environment to truly immerse the player and the fantasy of the dragon: a dragon wing gust ability that knocks players/trees in its AOE way back would be amazing.
More phase transition abilities (every 25%) to make the fight harder with more interesting/complex (not contemporary WoW raiding complex where addons are necessary but more than what was shown) abilities.
Visual feedback as bosses transition to other phases; the dragon should run and cast abilities faster, maybe part of it catches fire as it becomes enraged or something. Its fire breath could get bigger/more intense.
I know its an MMO and you can't make Elden Ring bosses, but study their bosses and take inspiration from them because that's peak boss gameplay. Next generation means pushing the boundaries of what's been done before in a generation - show us!
Overall I thought this preview was okay (about 5/10).
I know its Alpha and the team is still being assembled in some sense, but IMO the above is what is absolutely necessary to create WHOA factor gameplay experiences that can truly be dubbed next gen. In terms of visual feedback from the environment and gameplay mechanics, I truly hope the goal before launch is to enhance everything a few fold to truly set it apart from MMOs that came out 20 years ago.
The environment is always pretty good and not an area of concern (from everything i've seen for the last several years). I feel the goal of variation, complexity & scale of the play spaces being of the upmost importance to making immersive and interesting environments is understood by the devs, so i'm not worried.
I find the colours overall to still feel washed out and bland. I've said before for an UE5 game, this doesn't look as impressive as pretty much all other UE5 games i've seen (and i watch in 4k on YT).
The spell effects still feel too overpowering; i will keep hammering on this point forever: tone it down a few notches & add spell visual progression so things only get messy in the late game (and hopefully only for really powerful spells!)
Fine details looked really good as usual so keep it up!
UI needs to be spiced up & given some flavour! it's a bit too minimalist - but it does look clean!
Gameplay
The group combat looks decent but animations looked choppy (I know you've acknowledges this being network related but still needs to be mentioned).
The mechanic for the Lady of the Rose event was extremely simplistic and uninspired, as are the names of many things i've seen in the game thus far. The quest should have involved more exploration of the space and not just running up the stairs a few yards ahead of where you summoned the Lady? Maybe you had to find clues or a relic within the Citadel that you had to bring somewhere to summon her.
This is being touted as a 'next generation' MMO and to me there are some non negotiables in relation to gameplay details that need to addressed: MOB AI needs to just be a lot better & more dynamic. Monsters just standing still is what you expect in an MMO from early 2000s; give them character and life! have them interact with one another and move around at least a bit if they aren't supposed to be patrolling. During combat have them CC intelligently and move around make tactical decisions so you actually have to pay attention and it doesn't become too mindless too soon. Each type of mob should have a distinctive personality ie. casters generally try and keep distance and maybe snare melee or players approaching them more often, while rogue-like mobs go for ranged players more often and have anti-mage spells.
Create challenge though complex & dynamic MOB AI and not just hp/dmg. Give them a good amount of different abilities (take some from the player abilities you dont have to make all brand new ones!) so they aren't just all damage sponges you afk dps. THAT is next generation enemy gameplay!
The Dragon visually was great and its abilities were a good start for an alpha. I think you guys can make the fight so much more intense and immersive and truly next generation by:
adding more abilities, especially ones that force non tanks to move around that aren't just circular wave AOEs from the boss
Making more use of the environment to truly immerse the player and the fantasy of the dragon: a dragon wing gust ability that knocks players/trees in its AOE way back would be amazing.
More phase transition abilities (every 25%) to make the fight harder with more interesting/complex (not contemporary WoW raiding complex where addons are necessary but more than what was shown) abilities.
Visual feedback as bosses transition to other phases; the dragon should run and cast abilities faster, maybe part of it catches fire as it becomes enraged or something. Its fire breath could get bigger/more intense.
I know its an MMO and you can't make Elden Ring bosses, but study their bosses and take inspiration from them because that's peak boss gameplay. Next generation means pushing the boundaries of what's been done before in a generation - show us!
Overall I thought this preview was okay (about 5/10).
I know its Alpha and the team is still being assembled in some sense, but IMO the above is what is absolutely necessary to create WHOA factor gameplay experiences that can truly be dubbed next gen. In terms of visual feedback from the environment and gameplay mechanics, I truly hope the goal before launch is to enhance everything a few fold to truly set it apart from MMOs that came out 20 years ago.
Daevok
4
Re: Dot Class?
Dot mechanic is garbage tho.
Tell that to my EQ1 Necro. Long boss fights. No class could beat my DPS once I got my dots layered and timed. Used to solo raid trash mobs to get exp.
Re: Dot Class?
Summoner will probably have Dots, What else are they gonna do while sending some pets after the target? Debuff and DoT!
Morgalf
1
Re: Dot Class?
I really hope summoner will be DoT based. I would definitely enjoy him much more.
Sorcres
1
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
So I have some complaints.
1. Wing attacks. In general, I would like to see more action with those wings. I think it would make the fight look better.
2. I think it would be nice if the dragon glares at you if you get close enough, but far enough not to combat agro. So it tracks characters that get close enough until it combat agros. (See Elswyr dragons from ESO)
3. More tail whips, please. Make people actively have to time a block. Punish them for trying to perma block. I like that players have to watch out for AOEs. Dances peons! Dance!
4. Fire in water. I would love to see the water have a boiling animation. Bubbles!
5. Fire animation in the braisers needs to be slowed down.
Overall, the stream looked good!
1. Wing attacks. In general, I would like to see more action with those wings. I think it would make the fight look better.
2. I think it would be nice if the dragon glares at you if you get close enough, but far enough not to combat agro. So it tracks characters that get close enough until it combat agros. (See Elswyr dragons from ESO)
3. More tail whips, please. Make people actively have to time a block. Punish them for trying to perma block. I like that players have to watch out for AOEs. Dances peons! Dance!
4. Fire in water. I would love to see the water have a boiling animation. Bubbles!
5. Fire animation in the braisers needs to be slowed down.
Overall, the stream looked good!
Mionikoi
2
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
Visually it looks great, abilities look cool.. now my beef with this and it might be that i just haven't played MMOs in a while..
Mobs and boss look like target practice.
-Mobs stand on spot and do not have any activity, just idly being there, is there some purpose for them to be there? we have like 30 years of development of mob ai in single player games, can we get at least 5% of it into this? can they move around or do something
-Mobs are intentionally blind, like i get we dont want to pull whole castle of mobs but like at least give them viewing range and angle, you literally cut mob 10m in front of another and there is no reaction, even short sited fire demon would see that there is 8 people infront of him fighting
-what is the point to the mobs? why have fire monsters in green castle full of water? put skeletons there, this just feels so out of place and it is even harder to think of some idling animation for them or having them do some non combat animation since there is no reason for them to exist.. and if you have them in the castle at least have the walls chared or burn the green stuff, still in the first part of caste, based on environment skeletons would fit more
-boss is another static target; why was the dragon even there, it flew in, cool looking, but than just stands. I get that you want the player to start the fight ok, then have the dragon fly around and spit flames until player is ready to engage. And again why is it there, is it for the egg, then it should be pissed and do stuff and damage because it is pissed. Is it there because it just lives there, have him sleep or drink water or walk around, this just feel soooo, unrefined and "old".
My conclusion is, loved it but mobs AI felt like something from first WOW, no life, just target practice dummies.
FYI created account for this message.. Good luck, cant wait to play this game
Mobs and boss look like target practice.
-Mobs stand on spot and do not have any activity, just idly being there, is there some purpose for them to be there? we have like 30 years of development of mob ai in single player games, can we get at least 5% of it into this? can they move around or do something
-Mobs are intentionally blind, like i get we dont want to pull whole castle of mobs but like at least give them viewing range and angle, you literally cut mob 10m in front of another and there is no reaction, even short sited fire demon would see that there is 8 people infront of him fighting
-what is the point to the mobs? why have fire monsters in green castle full of water? put skeletons there, this just feels so out of place and it is even harder to think of some idling animation for them or having them do some non combat animation since there is no reason for them to exist.. and if you have them in the castle at least have the walls chared or burn the green stuff, still in the first part of caste, based on environment skeletons would fit more
-boss is another static target; why was the dragon even there, it flew in, cool looking, but than just stands. I get that you want the player to start the fight ok, then have the dragon fly around and spit flames until player is ready to engage. And again why is it there, is it for the egg, then it should be pissed and do stuff and damage because it is pissed. Is it there because it just lives there, have him sleep or drink water or walk around, this just feel soooo, unrefined and "old".
My conclusion is, loved it but mobs AI felt like something from first WOW, no life, just target practice dummies.
FYI created account for this message.. Good luck, cant wait to play this game
smichov
2
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
Gonna give an honest semi-real-time reaction to this showcase. Normally I try to be holistic, and mostly critique the direction of things rather than details, but I think AoC is getting to the point where the details are really starting to matter. So whatever stands out to me the most is what I'll be commenting on.
First off, The Lighting is kinda overbearing and annoying. Steven starting into the sun and dust for the first 5 minutes was not a good idea to show off the visual appeal of the game. Just getting that nitpick out of the way. (After watching the rest, lighting looked much better.)
Sadly, the beginning section of the showcase, inside the fortress, felt a little generic. For two reasons:
There's a Bunch of Lore, but none of it is interesting or matters in any way. It was implied that a story arc is in effect, but we do not get to see that at all. Just looks like a normal quest through a small section of a fortress. (The fortress looks dope though.) But I'm sure some of that feeling is because I don't know any of the connecting lore/relevance of the area. Maybe the lore/quest/story will be more compelling in-game/in-context.
There's no excuse for The Trash-Mob Gameplay though. Y'all start by pulling 4 mobs at a time with 2 clerics, but take hardly any damage, even with Steven (Cleric) ignoring the combat half the time. No threat at all, just a bunch of trash mob damage sponges that take a long time to kill. Then the "defend" event starts, but it's more of the same. The "ancient" big bad guy just appears with no fanfare, and you kill even more damage sponges. The only threat seems to be the poorly-visible fire puddles? (Truly a staple of generic MMOs). Basically the whole thing can be boiled down to "The group killed 10 waves of mobs, and almost died to fire once or twice." Nothing else caught my attention.
Edit: On second watch, it seems there were some mobs doing targetted attacks that chunked people to low HP. So at least the healer had something to do. Clearly I'm being a little too harsh on this section, but idk.
Edit 2: Maybe what I'm trying to say is that the mob mechanics (if they existed), like interrupts or dodge-able charge attacks, were not telegraphed well enough to notice. And the damage from them (while high in some cases) was ultimately non-lethal, despite the chaos. So I have trouble imagining that a coordinated group would struggle with it at all.
In the end, it doesn't super matter. It's fine if some of the PvE content is generic hack-and-slash. As long as the basic class gameplay is fun, and the content is part of something much more interesting, like the build up to a raid encounter. Which was true in this case. Okay no more edits.
On to some more positive feedback...
The UI continues to look better and better. Kudos on the raid frames in particular. If the parties were sorted by archetype it would be perfect.
The Raid Itself looks pretty fun. The damage and mechanics look threatening without being unfair. Almost everything is telegraphed well enough to allow some ability to dodge or mitigate damage, without being trivial. And there's a good variety of different boss moves. The side-to-side breath cone looked pretty dangerous, compared to the others. (It's high damage, and many ranged classes will have no way to avoid it, aside from dashing through to take 1 less tick of damage.) But I think that's good, to have one really scary attack that pressures the healers.
The only thing I would change about the fight is adding an explosion vfx to make it more clear when those bomb debuffs are blowing up and killing people. (Noticed it happening a lot, but had to rewatch to figure out why.)
And lastly, this is really unimportant, but The Stat Names on gear could use some work. Seeing "rating" at the end of every stat line on the loot was kinda ridiculous. I don't know how all the stats work, or what the character sheet looks like, but surely there's a better way to explain it without being so verbose.
First off, The Lighting is kinda overbearing and annoying. Steven starting into the sun and dust for the first 5 minutes was not a good idea to show off the visual appeal of the game. Just getting that nitpick out of the way. (After watching the rest, lighting looked much better.)
Sadly, the beginning section of the showcase, inside the fortress, felt a little generic. For two reasons:
There's a Bunch of Lore, but none of it is interesting or matters in any way. It was implied that a story arc is in effect, but we do not get to see that at all. Just looks like a normal quest through a small section of a fortress. (The fortress looks dope though.) But I'm sure some of that feeling is because I don't know any of the connecting lore/relevance of the area. Maybe the lore/quest/story will be more compelling in-game/in-context.
There's no excuse for The Trash-Mob Gameplay though. Y'all start by pulling 4 mobs at a time with 2 clerics, but take hardly any damage, even with Steven (Cleric) ignoring the combat half the time. No threat at all, just a bunch of trash mob damage sponges that take a long time to kill. Then the "defend" event starts, but it's more of the same. The "ancient" big bad guy just appears with no fanfare, and you kill even more damage sponges. The only threat seems to be the poorly-visible fire puddles? (Truly a staple of generic MMOs). Basically the whole thing can be boiled down to "The group killed 10 waves of mobs, and almost died to fire once or twice." Nothing else caught my attention.
Edit: On second watch, it seems there were some mobs doing targetted attacks that chunked people to low HP. So at least the healer had something to do. Clearly I'm being a little too harsh on this section, but idk.
Edit 2: Maybe what I'm trying to say is that the mob mechanics (if they existed), like interrupts or dodge-able charge attacks, were not telegraphed well enough to notice. And the damage from them (while high in some cases) was ultimately non-lethal, despite the chaos. So I have trouble imagining that a coordinated group would struggle with it at all.
In the end, it doesn't super matter. It's fine if some of the PvE content is generic hack-and-slash. As long as the basic class gameplay is fun, and the content is part of something much more interesting, like the build up to a raid encounter. Which was true in this case. Okay no more edits.
On to some more positive feedback...
The UI continues to look better and better. Kudos on the raid frames in particular. If the parties were sorted by archetype it would be perfect.
The Raid Itself looks pretty fun. The damage and mechanics look threatening without being unfair. Almost everything is telegraphed well enough to allow some ability to dodge or mitigate damage, without being trivial. And there's a good variety of different boss moves. The side-to-side breath cone looked pretty dangerous, compared to the others. (It's high damage, and many ranged classes will have no way to avoid it, aside from dashing through to take 1 less tick of damage.) But I think that's good, to have one really scary attack that pressures the healers.
The only thing I would change about the fight is adding an explosion vfx to make it more clear when those bomb debuffs are blowing up and killing people. (Noticed it happening a lot, but had to rewatch to figure out why.)
And lastly, this is really unimportant, but The Stat Names on gear could use some work. Seeing "rating" at the end of every stat line on the loot was kinda ridiculous. I don't know how all the stats work, or what the character sheet looks like, but surely there's a better way to explain it without being so verbose.
Leonerdo
1
Re: Cleric and bard - please do not turn support classes into heal/buff bots.
the augment system should help with this. or at least i hope it will
It may change some heal skills to dmg for example
It may change some heal skills to dmg for example
Githal
4
Re: Altoholic friendly?
Only real road block is the 250hrs of game play to get max level.
Finally an MMO where the mantra of "Choices with Consequences" has its day in the sun.