Best Of
Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
I would like to preface this by saying that I am new here. I have been following Ashes of Creation for a few years, but only recently have I decided to take a more active role in supporting the game and the developers.
I feel like I speak for many when I say that the original developer pitch of an 8x8 class system with effectively 64 class combinations was one of the things that first attracted my attention to Ashes of Creation. In a systems based RPG there is no system more integral to game play and user experience than the class system. A commitment to fully fleshed out multi-class combinations with unique and flavorful skills, spells, and abilities is a bold undertaking, but it also has the potential to deliver a truly great MMORPG experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nle0WV2J-64
This video has made me start to think long and hard about what it is players expect from the 8x8 Class System and whether or not the Augment system really delivers the experience players are looking for. It seems clear to me that the allure of such a system comes from the customization and uniqueness that the individual multi-class options offer players. A player who is excited to be a Paladin is not going to be satisfied by a Tank that has Cleric themed abilities. Their expectation is that combining Tank and Cleric yields an entirely unique class. The unique and flavorful names given to each of the class combinations reinforces the idea that they will stand out as unique and flavorful classes that have their OWN unique abilities.
The community seems to realize that their expectations for the system far exceed the design space that is currently being discussed and the general trend seems to be a tempering of excitement and expectations in anticipation of a disappointing conclusion either in the form a reduction in the overall number of classes or in the watering down of the distinctness and power of each class. I would like to suggest that the original concept of an expansive multi-class system with unique and flavorful multi-classes is not only still within reach, but that the template for creating such a system has been around for decades.
Dragon Warrior VII is a game which came out in 2000 for the original Playstation and which has one of the best templates for a multi-class system I have ever encountered in an RPG.
https://archive.org/details/dragonwarriorviiprimasofficialstrategyguide2001/page/n7/mode/2up
In this system character level and class level are decoupled from each other. A character can go to the class temple and become one of 10 different base classes such as Cleric, Fighter, or Mage. When a player selects a base class for one of their characters it provides a base attribute modifier. A Fighter for example gets STR: No Change/AGI +15%/GRD (guard) -10%/INT -30%/HP - No Change/MP -50%. As they level up in Fighter, they gain fighter abilities along the way with the class defining abilities often coming early in progression and a powerful specialized abilities coming later. A player can change their class at any time, but they retain any skills or abilities they earned along the way. If a player obtains max level as a fighter they learn Windbeast, a powerful single target skill that costs no MP. If the character then changes their class to become a Cleric, they will lose the Fighter attribute modifiers and gain the Cleric modifiers (-20% STR, -10%Agi, +10%INT, +30% MP etc) however they will still know Windbeast along with any other spells/skills they earned along the way. Once a player obtains max level as a Cleric and knows all of the Cleric and Fighter skills they have to option to train as a Paladin which has its own set of much better stat modifiers (+10% STR/+15% AGI/+15% INT and no negatives to any other stats) and a new list of skills and abilities to learn that are completely unique to Paladin. In this way the class system becomes additive with players spending time learning to play each of base classes individually before they dive into the more diverse and challenging advanced classes. By keeping the number of abilities each class obtains relatively small (8-10 abilities per class), but making them exceptionally unique and flavorful it allows the number of tools in the characters toolkit to grow steadily as they progress without overwhelming the player with too many choices. The balance comes from the stat modifiers. While a Fighter who previously trained as a Cleric may have powerful heals in his spellbook, he can only cast one or two of them before his -50% mana pool runs out. Conversely a Cleric who previously trained as a Fighter has access to the powerful Windbeast attack , but its damage will be limited by the Clerics -20% strength modifier. However once a player has mastered both Cleric and Fighter and assumed the role of Paladin they suddenly find they have the right modifiers to use ALL of their skills in conjunction while also gaining powerful Paladin only abilities like Magic Wall which is the only ability in the game that reduces incoming Magic Damage to the entire party.
Obviously such a system would need modifications in order to adapt it from a Single Player RPG to an MMORPG, but ultimately the core system seems like a much BETTER fit for for Ashes of Creation than the Augment system being discussed right now. Furthermore, while the idea of 64 unique classes is tempting I think most players would be happy to compromise on the NUMBER of unique classes at launch in exchange for better EXECUTION of the ones we have. Certain class combinations are much stronger thematically than others and I would like to see 24 class combinations that are done WELL than 64 class combinations that are watered down and samey.
I feel like I speak for many when I say that the original developer pitch of an 8x8 class system with effectively 64 class combinations was one of the things that first attracted my attention to Ashes of Creation. In a systems based RPG there is no system more integral to game play and user experience than the class system. A commitment to fully fleshed out multi-class combinations with unique and flavorful skills, spells, and abilities is a bold undertaking, but it also has the potential to deliver a truly great MMORPG experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nle0WV2J-64
This video has made me start to think long and hard about what it is players expect from the 8x8 Class System and whether or not the Augment system really delivers the experience players are looking for. It seems clear to me that the allure of such a system comes from the customization and uniqueness that the individual multi-class options offer players. A player who is excited to be a Paladin is not going to be satisfied by a Tank that has Cleric themed abilities. Their expectation is that combining Tank and Cleric yields an entirely unique class. The unique and flavorful names given to each of the class combinations reinforces the idea that they will stand out as unique and flavorful classes that have their OWN unique abilities.
The community seems to realize that their expectations for the system far exceed the design space that is currently being discussed and the general trend seems to be a tempering of excitement and expectations in anticipation of a disappointing conclusion either in the form a reduction in the overall number of classes or in the watering down of the distinctness and power of each class. I would like to suggest that the original concept of an expansive multi-class system with unique and flavorful multi-classes is not only still within reach, but that the template for creating such a system has been around for decades.
Dragon Warrior VII is a game which came out in 2000 for the original Playstation and which has one of the best templates for a multi-class system I have ever encountered in an RPG.
https://archive.org/details/dragonwarriorviiprimasofficialstrategyguide2001/page/n7/mode/2up
In this system character level and class level are decoupled from each other. A character can go to the class temple and become one of 10 different base classes such as Cleric, Fighter, or Mage. When a player selects a base class for one of their characters it provides a base attribute modifier. A Fighter for example gets STR: No Change/AGI +15%/GRD (guard) -10%/INT -30%/HP - No Change/MP -50%. As they level up in Fighter, they gain fighter abilities along the way with the class defining abilities often coming early in progression and a powerful specialized abilities coming later. A player can change their class at any time, but they retain any skills or abilities they earned along the way. If a player obtains max level as a fighter they learn Windbeast, a powerful single target skill that costs no MP. If the character then changes their class to become a Cleric, they will lose the Fighter attribute modifiers and gain the Cleric modifiers (-20% STR, -10%Agi, +10%INT, +30% MP etc) however they will still know Windbeast along with any other spells/skills they earned along the way. Once a player obtains max level as a Cleric and knows all of the Cleric and Fighter skills they have to option to train as a Paladin which has its own set of much better stat modifiers (+10% STR/+15% AGI/+15% INT and no negatives to any other stats) and a new list of skills and abilities to learn that are completely unique to Paladin. In this way the class system becomes additive with players spending time learning to play each of base classes individually before they dive into the more diverse and challenging advanced classes. By keeping the number of abilities each class obtains relatively small (8-10 abilities per class), but making them exceptionally unique and flavorful it allows the number of tools in the characters toolkit to grow steadily as they progress without overwhelming the player with too many choices. The balance comes from the stat modifiers. While a Fighter who previously trained as a Cleric may have powerful heals in his spellbook, he can only cast one or two of them before his -50% mana pool runs out. Conversely a Cleric who previously trained as a Fighter has access to the powerful Windbeast attack , but its damage will be limited by the Clerics -20% strength modifier. However once a player has mastered both Cleric and Fighter and assumed the role of Paladin they suddenly find they have the right modifiers to use ALL of their skills in conjunction while also gaining powerful Paladin only abilities like Magic Wall which is the only ability in the game that reduces incoming Magic Damage to the entire party.
Obviously such a system would need modifications in order to adapt it from a Single Player RPG to an MMORPG, but ultimately the core system seems like a much BETTER fit for for Ashes of Creation than the Augment system being discussed right now. Furthermore, while the idea of 64 unique classes is tempting I think most players would be happy to compromise on the NUMBER of unique classes at launch in exchange for better EXECUTION of the ones we have. Certain class combinations are much stronger thematically than others and I would like to see 24 class combinations that are done WELL than 64 class combinations that are watered down and samey.
Rippley
1
Re: Next Livestream + Q&A Submission - Friday, August 30, 2024 at 11am Pacific
WHERE IS MY SPEAR STEVEN?
Adestra
2
Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in Ashes of Creation with Diverse Energy Mechanics
1. Addressing Claims of Bias and Unnecessary Comparison
It's important to recognize that the suggestion to implement resources like Rage or Energy for certain classes in Ashes of Creation isn't merely about replicating the success of systems found in other MMOs. Rather, it's about identifying what those mechanics can bring to class identity and player engagement, drawing on successful precedents to inspire, not copy. The goal is not to turn Ashes into another version of existing games but to explore how different resource systems can enhance the distinct feel and gameplay of each class.
2. Responding to Concerns About Homogenization and Tradition
While it's true that many successful MMOs have utilized Mana for a range of classes, including melee and tank roles, this does not necessarily mean it is the only or the best approach for every game. Each MMO creates its own universe with unique lore and gameplay mechanics that might benefit from different approaches. The presence of Mana as a universal resource in these games is often a design choice that aligns with their specific magical universes. Ashes of Creation offers a new canvas, and it might be beneficial to explore how varying energy systems can diversify gameplay, making each class's approach to combat feel unique and fresh.
3. Promoting Gameplay Diversity and Strategic Depth
Adopting different resource systems could lead to a richer gameplay experience by diversifying the strategies and skills required for each class. This isn't just about making Ashes different for the sake of difference but about enhancing the tactical depth and player involvement in each role:
4. Roleplaying and Class Identity
As someone who has enjoyed playing melee classes in various MMORPGs for over two decades, one of the most compelling aspects of these roles is the ability to embody a character who is distinctly non-magical. The idea of playing a class that either dislikes or does not understand Mana adds a layer of depth to roleplaying that resonates with players like myself. It reinforces the identity of the class not just in combat but in the broader narrative and interaction within the game world. Integrating alternative resources like Rage or Energy can emphasize this non-magical, gritty aspect of these characters, making the roleplaying experience more authentic and immersive.
5. Humble Acknowledgment of Diverse Preferences
It's essential to recognize that these suggestions stem from a desire to see Ashes of Creation flourish as a multifaceted game that caters to a wide range of player experiences and preferences. The proposal to differentiate class resources is based on observations and preferences within the gaming community, and while they draw on examples from other successful games, they are tailored to what might benefit the unique world and lore of Ashes.
In conclusion, while some might see the suggestion to move away from a universal Mana system as biased or unnecessary, it is offered in the spirit of enhancing the individuality and depth of each class. By exploring alternative resources, Ashes of Creation has the potential to offer a varied and rich combat experience that allows each player to find a class that resonates with their personal playstyle and contributes to a vibrant, dynamic game world.
That concludes my Ted Talk. Thank you.
1. Addressing Claims of Bias and Unnecessary Comparison
It's important to recognize that the suggestion to implement resources like Rage or Energy for certain classes in Ashes of Creation isn't merely about replicating the success of systems found in other MMOs. Rather, it's about identifying what those mechanics can bring to class identity and player engagement, drawing on successful precedents to inspire, not copy. The goal is not to turn Ashes into another version of existing games but to explore how different resource systems can enhance the distinct feel and gameplay of each class.
2. Responding to Concerns About Homogenization and Tradition
While it's true that many successful MMOs have utilized Mana for a range of classes, including melee and tank roles, this does not necessarily mean it is the only or the best approach for every game. Each MMO creates its own universe with unique lore and gameplay mechanics that might benefit from different approaches. The presence of Mana as a universal resource in these games is often a design choice that aligns with their specific magical universes. Ashes of Creation offers a new canvas, and it might be beneficial to explore how varying energy systems can diversify gameplay, making each class's approach to combat feel unique and fresh.
3. Promoting Gameplay Diversity and Strategic Depth
Adopting different resource systems could lead to a richer gameplay experience by diversifying the strategies and skills required for each class. This isn't just about making Ashes different for the sake of difference but about enhancing the tactical depth and player involvement in each role:
- Resource Dynamics: Classes that operate on Rage or Energy could encourage more active and reactive gameplay, which might appeal to players who enjoy a more visceral and immediate combat experience, as opposed to the strategic reserve and deployment of Mana-based abilities.
- Class-Specific Challenges: Unique resources introduce specific challenges and learning curves that can help define the mastery of a class. For instance, managing Rage in the heat of battle requires a different skill set and strategic thinking than conserving and deploying Mana, potentially leading to a more engaging experience for players who prefer a hands-on combat style.
4. Roleplaying and Class Identity
As someone who has enjoyed playing melee classes in various MMORPGs for over two decades, one of the most compelling aspects of these roles is the ability to embody a character who is distinctly non-magical. The idea of playing a class that either dislikes or does not understand Mana adds a layer of depth to roleplaying that resonates with players like myself. It reinforces the identity of the class not just in combat but in the broader narrative and interaction within the game world. Integrating alternative resources like Rage or Energy can emphasize this non-magical, gritty aspect of these characters, making the roleplaying experience more authentic and immersive.
5. Humble Acknowledgment of Diverse Preferences
It's essential to recognize that these suggestions stem from a desire to see Ashes of Creation flourish as a multifaceted game that caters to a wide range of player experiences and preferences. The proposal to differentiate class resources is based on observations and preferences within the gaming community, and while they draw on examples from other successful games, they are tailored to what might benefit the unique world and lore of Ashes.
In conclusion, while some might see the suggestion to move away from a universal Mana system as biased or unnecessary, it is offered in the spirit of enhancing the individuality and depth of each class. By exploring alternative resources, Ashes of Creation has the potential to offer a varied and rich combat experience that allows each player to find a class that resonates with their personal playstyle and contributes to a vibrant, dynamic game world.
That concludes my Ted Talk. Thank you.
Re: The need for Bone Armor.
I really think there should be craft-able bone armor in game. It is needed for Role Play for sure.
It kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiindaaa (?) already exists with for Example the Unseen Order Cosmetics, so i wouldn't be to worried about that. But i get what you mean. The Possibility to make it ingame.
Ahhh like back in V-Rising ... ...
I will forever remember these glorious Moments, when i crafted my first Set of Armor from the Remains of someone's Grandparents.
Ahm~UMMM, i mean ... ... ... ... ... Yes, Bone-Armor Please !! (Ò_Ó) it is just logical to make Weapons and Armor out from Stuff before we can smelt down Metal and so on. And maybe Wood or Leather will not always be around to quickly make neat Armors from it. ( )
Yes!!
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
I feel you are not understanding the point of the system, or just wanting something very different from what they are doing (Hence u ignored my post about the unique elements of it, and u have not read the augment wiki in detail for the bit of information that is on there)
If you are looking for all classes to feel unique with all their skills, that is not the point of augments.
For the umpteenth time I completely understand how the proposed Augment System is intended to work. I have read the wiki, I have seen the quotes. I get it.
What I am suggesting is that RIGHT NOW, before they start actually implementing the Augment System might in fact be a good time to seek feedback from the community about what they want out of the Archetype system. If the majority of the community wants their archetype sub classes to feel unique and flavorful it would be pretty stupid to implement a system that does not set out to accomplish that goal.
And I'm not even saying that they cannot create unique and flavorful sub-classes using the Augment System as described. I think they absolutely can. But the only way they can do that is if they hear from the community about what their expectations are for each of these subclasses. Theme and flavor should always inform design and players should always be given as much agency in character creation as possible.
So I ask you to put aside everything that you THINK you know about the augment system and instead focus on the actual subclasses themselves. What is a HIGHSWORD to you? What is a TEMPLAR? When you hear those names what do you picture in your mind? How do they fight? How do they move? How is a HIGHSWORD different than a TEMPLAR? Imagine all the ways that the TEMPLAR and the HIGHSWORD are the same and imagine all the ways they are different.
Now imagine ways that you could represent those two ideas mechanically in game and MAKE SURE that whatever system you do end up implementing captures the essence of those two distinct classes. That is it, that is literally the extent of what I am advocating for and I know that I am far from the only one who feels this way about it. When I make suggestions that fall outside of the scope of "the augment system" (like adding a unique passive for each subclass) I am not advocating for a wholesale scrapping of augments I am simply pointing out that there is plenty of unused design space that could be used to enhance the flavor and unique gameplay styles of each class.
At this point im convinced you are looking for something else, i have no reason to think what i want from the sub class. What we need to understand is the main augment paths from the different classes and understanding how those augments can effect other classes.
So if cleric augments are life, death, etc. I'd be thinking how life and death can effect my skills on a warrior and the level of change to them.
You need to get your head out of looking at these combinations and what they do and thinking more so on what augments do and how they will effect skills. As that is the core of the system. Its not about ho templar and highsword are different, its about how are the AUGMENT options different from one another and their influence on skills.
Communities expectations for subclasses don't matter, their feedback is what is important for how it plays, feels, etc when IS implements the system. The community is not the one designing the game... I have no clue where you are getting this angle devs need to do what the community expects. The point of their feedback is they design their game and show it to the community for feedback, not ask the community what they expect and to make that thing.
These 2 things are making you so far off the mark...
Let me try approaching this from another angle.
If they scrapped all the names for the sub-types and then implemented the augment system and then chose names for the subclasses based on how the combos actually feel in game, would you support that?
How things are going to feel is a ranger is going to feel like a ranger, though some of their skills might work a bit differently and/or have additional effects. That is what the current information pretty much provides.
This is like akin to two long people both being long range but having some different element to how their skills interact with each other.
So im trying to figure out why you refuse to look at it the way they are intending, and trying to look at the two combing together like its a new archetype suddenly.
At the same time everyone can have their own opinion on what they think is fun, etc. If you are here to argue your ideas for a system is better, and they should do what you want and scrape their onw system since you know it better. I guess you can have your own thought, its still short sighted since u don't know what they are doing in detail and simply just want your own idea cause of your attachment.
Mag7spy
1