Best Of
Re: Fixing the Class system
I feel like there might be too much attachment that people (myself included) have already developed to the "existing" augment/class designs. Even though they don't really exist yet... Doesn't Intrepid want us to give feedback and tell them when we think their design direction is flawed? Especially before they waste a bunch of work on it?
I think people here have clearly identified two potential flaws to the whole system: 1) The 64 subclasses are not likely to feel unique enough. And 2) it might take way too long to make as many augments as Intrepid supposedly wants. (Although I think people might be misinterpreting the "4 augment paths" thing. It's probably just 4 "trees" not 4 augment choices for every single ability. Still, that's a heavy cost for something that might feel shallow or redundant in the end.)
And of course, balance might be an issue, but it's entirely secondary to the others. If classes feel unique and augments aren't infeasibly numerous in the first place, then balancing them afterwards shouldn't be too tall of an order.
I think people here have clearly identified two potential flaws to the whole system: 1) The 64 subclasses are not likely to feel unique enough. And 2) it might take way too long to make as many augments as Intrepid supposedly wants. (Although I think people might be misinterpreting the "4 augment paths" thing. It's probably just 4 "trees" not 4 augment choices for every single ability. Still, that's a heavy cost for something that might feel shallow or redundant in the end.)
And of course, balance might be an issue, but it's entirely secondary to the others. If classes feel unique and augments aren't infeasibly numerous in the first place, then balancing them afterwards shouldn't be too tall of an order.
Leonerdo
5
Re: [EU|DE] Eisenfaust || PvX | GMT+1 | Zwergengilde | Nodebuilding | Handel & Handwerk
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Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
If the intention is for Nightblade to be a rogue flavored Fighter and not a unique class, then I think it is a mistake to give it a unique and flavorful name as it will set the wrong expectation for players.
I think at the very least each two archetype combo should have a unique passive that establishes the theme and ties the two archetypes together. For example:
Nightblade: Attacking enemies from Stealth grants you a burst of Combat Momentum. Attacks that deal poison damage grant 1 additional momentum.
Hunter (Fighter/Ranger): You may cast Mark of the Bear, Mark of the Raven, and Mark of the Tiger. Melee attacks have a chance to apply Stalk to the target.
The combo-archetypes just need SOMETHING to make them feel more flavorful and unique IMHO.
Sure, if you are not familiar with the game, and you see 64 different class names, it can be confusing, or rather expectations would be different from reality.
But then again, Archeage also worked somewhat like this.
You had 3 archetypes, and you combined them into a class. Each class combination had a unique name.
I don't think many people thought you'd have 100+ classes. Many classes played similarly, and you basically had a dozen viable choices (viable as in meta, many other classes were viable, just not the best - as there was a better option available, which was similar).
People might be confused now, because simply we haven't seen the system in action, and there's so much stuff we do not know, but I don't think it's going to be the case when the game releases.
For example, let's take a look at these 2 classes in Archeage:
Skullknight = Occultism, Auramancy, Defense
Revenant = Occultism, Auramancy, Sorcery
Both classes use 2 same skill trees, with only 1 being different.
You'd be correct to assume they're similar classes, however, one of these trees was always the main influencer on your role. In this case, Sorcery made a Revenant into a really good Damage class, while Skullknight was initiator, focusing on initiating fights, pulling enemies, cc-locking them, and surviving for long enough, so the Revenants can come in and blow them up with their AoEs. Rather, this was the case during this specific meta.
In Ashes, your main archetype will determine your role.
Only 1 skill tree was different, so both classes were similar, but also different.
Skill selection from these trees mattered, so did your gear and weapons - and that is what separated these 2.
Skullknights mostly went for tank gear, while Revenants went for DPS gear. Skullknights used a weapon as a stat stick, with a shield, while Revenants used a weapon that would give them the most damage (simplifying it here). Revenants focused on AoEs, to maximize their damage, while Skullknights focused on CC skills, survivability, etc.
I'm assuming it will be similar in Ashes, where your build, gear, and weapon choices will impact the way your class plays, rather than just one of those things.
For example: Fighter + Fighter using plate armor and a Two-Handed sword will be different than a Fighter + Mage, using leather or cloth armor and a Sword + Orb or Sword + Scepter.
iccer
1
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
Taleof2Cities wrote: »If the intention is for Nightblade to be a rogue flavored Fighter and not a unique class, then I think it is a mistake to give it a unique and flavorful name as it will set the wrong expectation for players.
That is precisely the expectation that Intrepid has communicated to the players, Rippley.
The secondary archetypes merely add flavor … there currently aren’t plans for 64 classes all with unique abilities.
That’s the expectation you should have going in to Alpha 2 … and in my opinion it doesn’t diminish from the game’s immersion and combat potential.
All that said, it is possible for the devs to under promise and over deliver.
We’ve already seen the Environment Team contributing way more than expected with the seasons showcase.
If that is the case then showing the community an 8x8 Grid with 64 of the coolest, most evocative archetype names was a HUGE mistake. Because you cant look at that chart and read the name "Songbow" without immediately starting to imagine what a Songbow might be like in game.
Rippley
1
Re: What is the advantage of choosing the same archetype as class?
Ranger is one of the archetypes where I find it really easy to imagine OTHER archetypes augmenting THEM, but comparatively difficult to imagine what THEIR augments would look like on other classes.
I suppose Ranger augments could be applied to a melee ability and turn it into a ranged ability or increase the range or area of effect of certain abilities. But how would that work with Ranger/Ranger?
Interestingly I again feel the exact opposite, because the 'Carry' itemization options in MOBAs (Predecessor being the main one that comes to mind) are almost always the ones most flexibly 'inserted' into basically any other attack build.
And I'm not necessarily talking about the simple 'hit harder' or 'attack faster' ones either, though obviously, debuffing against damage or getting Penetration options would suit every Ranger player I can think of, while still not requiring it to be Ranged (and then it could be Ranged whenever that was suitable).
Also, Rangers might get 'retreating mobility' or 'certain CC types' in the Augment space. It would be best for everyone, I think, if specific types of CC could be restricted to certain Archetypes, Augment wise.
e.g. Tanks have Knockbacks, Fighters have Slows/Staggers, Rangers have Snares and Roots, Rogues have Detargeting and punish-bleeds.
Azherae
1
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
If the intention is for Nightblade to be a rogue flavored Fighter and not a unique class, then I think it is a mistake to give it a unique and flavorful name as it will set the wrong expectation for players.
That is precisely the expectation that Intrepid has communicated to the players, Rippley.
The secondary archetypes merely add flavor … there currently aren’t plans for 64 classes all with unique abilities.
That’s the expectation you should have going in to Alpha 2 … and in my opinion it doesn’t diminish from the game’s immersion and combat potential.
All that said, it is possible for the devs to under promise and over deliver.
We’ve already seen the Environment Team contributing way more than expected with the seasons showcase.
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
The term "Class" for most people is really what is being called "Archetype" in AoC. The Class portion of character building can be thought of as augmenting or specializing a specific set of utilities. If they dropped either term Archtype or Class and used something else for the specialization of characters then most people would not have the initial "WTF... 64 Classes!" thought.
I think most players are really drawn to the idea of unique and flavorful multi-class options. Obviously my suggestion is an extreme deviation from the path we are on right now, but I guess my ultimate point is that I think it would be a MISTAKE not to give the multi-class archetypes unique and flavorful abilities. I think it would be disappointing if "Nightblade" is functionally identical to Fighter. Nightblade should combine the aspects of Fighter and Rogue into something unique. If it DOESNT do that, then dont bother with the multi-class archetypes at all.
If the compromise is to make FEWER archetype combinations but to fully flesh out the ones we DO have, I think I would be happier doing that.
Nightblade will combine aspects of Fighter and Rogue, just not in the way you are thinking.
It won't create a whole new ability kit that you can now use. It will use Fighter abilities, modified to be more like a Rogue, maybe added status effects, poisons, maybe quicker dash, rather than charge, etc. etc.
But it's all up to you, because you decide what augments you will take, and you decide which base abilities you will use.
As Azherae mentioned, two different Fighters will play differently, and on top of that you have augments, to further make it into something more unique - BUT not into a new class.
iccer
2
Re: Fixing the Class system
I think the overall takeaway here is that players WANT unique and flavorful multi-classes and there is serious doubt whether or not the augment system can deliver on that front
Rippley
2
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
To me I think it boils down to the 8 archetypes being your classes in a usual game sense, and the secondary archetype (augments) are the method to multi class.
The primary archetype is dominant and the secondary, which apparently they will let you change, provides a “flavor” of a class by offering 4 abilities to augment the primary archetype. So you really aren’t creating a “new” class, but you are allowing players to multi class that doesn’t suck (I hope). But I get they are calling them classes to provide a sense/feel there are more player options with respect to what they play.
We really have to wait and see. I’ve seen plenty of games with false choices in those options to the point where most are ignored by players because they are suboptimal.
The primary archetype is dominant and the secondary, which apparently they will let you change, provides a “flavor” of a class by offering 4 abilities to augment the primary archetype. So you really aren’t creating a “new” class, but you are allowing players to multi class that doesn’t suck (I hope). But I get they are calling them classes to provide a sense/feel there are more player options with respect to what they play.
We really have to wait and see. I’ve seen plenty of games with false choices in those options to the point where most are ignored by players because they are suboptimal.