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Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?
I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all
Thank you for your contribution
Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.
It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!
If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!
We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.
My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure
Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?
I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.
Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?
Arya just doesn't like reading much, don't worry about it.
Intrepid is glad for you to talk more, not less.
Azherae
4
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?
I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all
Thank you for your contribution
Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.
It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!
If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!
We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.
My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure
Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?
I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.
Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?
Arya just doesn't like reading much, don't worry about it.
Intrepid is glad for you to talk more, not less.
Exactly. They'd rather you post a thesis than be vague.
Hinotori
2
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
I mean, c’mon, every time I pick a tank or fighter, I wanna just smash stuff, not mess around with mana.
I’m in heavy armor, ready to rumble, not cast spells. Why’s my big bad warrior worrying about mana? Makes no sense. Mana for all classes? Feels like I’m just playing a wizard with different skins. Where’s the variety?
Melee should be about straightforward smashing, not managing some magic pool.
If I wanted to play a wizard, I’d pick a wizard. Please don’t make every class a part-time mage.
You wanna smash huh?
Sinder
3
Re: Dynamic Environments in Raids: What Would You Like to See?
I would like to see SURPRISES!
Like you enter X dungeon to fight some boss. You enter the boss area and instead some other boss shows up with completely different mechanics. Or you get double encounter of 2 bosses. Or you doing some world boss and you get invaded by a goblin army.
Or for example you walking in a dungeon, 1 of the players steps on a tile and falls on the lower floor that has no map of it, and you have no idea what you will encounter there. The rest of the group should decide if they will leave you there to die solo, or will they jump down to try and explore together with you
Like you enter X dungeon to fight some boss. You enter the boss area and instead some other boss shows up with completely different mechanics. Or you get double encounter of 2 bosses. Or you doing some world boss and you get invaded by a goblin army.
Or for example you walking in a dungeon, 1 of the players steps on a tile and falls on the lower floor that has no map of it, and you have no idea what you will encounter there. The rest of the group should decide if they will leave you there to die solo, or will they jump down to try and explore together with you
Githal
3
Re: Dynamic Environments in Raids: What Would You Like to See?
I think some basic 'Push your luck' mechanics would be good. Basically as you go deeper you have the choice to take a modest reward and exit, or to go deeper and risk going for the full prize. This will let the whole place be harder overall without being excessivly frustrating and let smaller/weaker groups bite off the amount they can actually handle.
Lodrig
1
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Greatwarlord wrote: »1) Regarding the lore-based explanation for using Mana universally—I get that there might be a thematic or narrative reason behind it. However, my thought is whether the lore could evolve or expand to incorporate different resource systems that might fit the class identities even better. Lore is crucial, but it's also often flexible enough to adapt for improved gameplay dynamics. Steven has also stated that not *all* being in Verra have the same ability to tap into "essence".
One of the great differentiators between mortal divine races and the gods is that aspect of mortality. And one of the ways that the divine races were created in order to interact with the Essence was through the use of a mortal coil; and that mortal coil was malleable. Your soul was malleable. It could change to adopt a greater connection with the Essence around one particular school of magic perhaps, or one type of magic that you might use Essence for. And the more you experienced that, the more adept you became with utilizing that magic. And that's because your coil would start to mold itself to best facilitate that flow of essence: whatever school of magic you were manipulating with it.[14] – Steven Sharif
In terms that I could understand this translates to:
There is a cosmic power called Essence. Mortals have souls. In the sould there is a "processing plant" (the mortal coil) for Essence that, fueled by mana, creates magic. The magic that comes out of processing plant is determined by a deep dedication to master something. For example a mage had a lifetime of preparation to form their soul to be able to turn Essence into domination of Fire, Ice, Lightining and the Void. The are performing what many will think of as magic in the classical sense. However, a Tank conjuring up a cone behind which his allies are protected from harm is by "logical, real world standards" just as much magic - and in the world of Ashes of Creation it is indeed that: Magic. Just not elemental magic, but protective magic.
So by the time you finished your character creation and click on play from a story perspective, your character has spent a few decades devoting themselves to that one particular kind of magic that you select via choice of your first Archetype, which is also why you won't be able to fundamentally move away from that even after choosing a different secondary Archetype. Us levelling up in that line of thinking means that the connection to our Archetypes magic grows strong, resulting in new skills.
And you gotta admit, the mortal coil explanation is better than how rage or combopoints alone could lead a normal mortal to perform superhuman feats. Furthermore it has been teased that this lore element will come up in the story of Ashes of Creation.
So in total it means - to fit that primary resource change in the way that souls and the mortal coil work in Ashes' lore would have to be changed fundamentally, which is unlikely since Steven told us that he doesn't want to change the fundamental priciples of game mechanics or the lore. And as a story writer myself I definitely understand that.
As to the last point that "not all beings in Verra have the same ability to tap into the Essence.": Yes, those are most of the NPCs. Their soul did not connect to any type of miracle level of magic to the point that they got to have an Archetype.Greatwarlord wrote: »2) About the Fighter's "Momentum" and the Tank's "Grit"— Yes, however my main point, though, is about the primary resource. Even with unique sub-resources like Momentum and Grit, the use of Mana as the main resource still feels a bit generic across such varied classes. Perhaps these unique resources could become the main ones? It might enrich the gameplay experience, making each class's resource management more unique and engaging, rather than just a secondary layer to Mana.
I'm all for integrating lore and unique mechanics smoothly. If we can have classes that feel distinctly different not just in abilities but also in how they manage and utilize their resources, that could really set Ashes apart in the crowded MMO space.
Like mentioned before this would require Steven to accept fundamental changes to a world building element that he had laid out long before this became the part of the plot for a video game, this dates back to TTRPG times when Verra was a Pathfinder campaign.
I think people could equally argue that having the same main resources like fighters and rogues in every other game is generic. "Oh another Fighter building up a 0 to 100 Rage bar", "Hey there is the Rogue again, stacking combo points whatever that is". I'm not sure how many MMORPGs these days have a mana-only resource system, so I can't deny or confirm that such a change would actually set Ashes more apart from other games.Greatwarlord wrote: »What do you think? Could there be room to tweak the lore and resource systems to make them even more class-specific?
With the things I have pointed to above: Do you still think this is something that could easily been done at this point, given how much class and story development has already been done? Or that it is worthwhile?
You've really delved deep into the lore—much deeper than I have obviously!
Regarding the mortal coil and its connection to Essence—your explanation does make the universal use of Mana as a primary resource quite compelling from a lore standpoint. It’s fascinating to see how deeply rooted these concepts are in the game’s narrative foundation, and Steven’s vision from the TTRPG days does bring a rich background / explanation to it.
However, even with this solid lore foundation, Might there still be some creative room to explore? For instance, while the mortal coil processes Essence into various forms of magic, could we not imagine this process being more physically manifested in some classes? Perhaps for Tanks and Fighters, this "processing" could translate into physical enhancements or battle readiness (akin to Rage or Stamina), reflecting their unique connection to Essence that isn’t traditionally magical but is still a product of their deep, lifelong training and dedication. Hell, call it magical-rage if you want.
This wouldn’t necessarily require a fundamental change to the lore but could be an expansion of how different beings interact with Essence uniquely. Such an adaptation could keep the core principles intact while allowing for gameplay diversity that enhances the distinctiveness of non- or less-magical classes. It might also align well with the notion that not all beings connect to the Essence in the same magical capacity, providing a lore-friendly way to diversify class resources.
As to whether this is feasible at this point in development, who knows, especially considering how much has already been set in stone. Yet, if there's flexibility in the lore to allow for such interpretations, it could be a worthwhile endeavor to enhance player immersion and class identity, making each class feel truly unique in how they harness their power.
Honestly, I just want to roleplay as a dwarf warrior who's blissfully unaware of any fancy magic or wizardry. Picture this: a stout, tough-as-nails dwarf who thinks all this magical mumbo jumbo is just tricks and nonsense. He’s all about the clang of his axe and the thrill of battle. Even though, technically, he’s kind of magical himself—what with being able to perform feats beyond the ordinary dwarf.
It’d be awesome to play a game where my fighter’s strength and resilience come from training and grit, not just tapping into some mystical force. Isn’t there room in this vast world for a warrior who’s just... a warrior? Not a clandestine wizard in armor. That’s the fantasy I’m after—keeping it real with steel and courage, no mana bar attached.
Obviously my fantasy and opinion is biased as is anybody's, but hey I'm just trying to give my feedback in the appropriate place, and in a respectful manner as that's literally what Intrepid keeps asking us to do. Perhaps this will all be fine too, maybe I'll come to realize wizard fighters are super cool and that they play well, I guess we'll see.
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Tanks have a unique "Grit" resource?
Tank resource is 'Corage', a skill called Grit can consume the Courage for a defense buff. Please use the correct terminology cause your now getting other people to repeat your mistake.
Lodrig
1
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Let's test the current design first.
Dygz
2
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
I'm generally possitivly disposed to class (well actually base Archeytype) unique resources. So far we have Momentum (basically renamed Rage) and Courage for the Warrior and Tank respectivly and they look well integrated into their kits.
I would not say that I percive any need to do away with Mana usage in all archetypes other then Mage. But I DO percive a need for a class resource for the yet to be revealed Summoner and I'd like to describe why.
This Summoner resurce would be called 'Control' or 'Command' or 'Willpower' something to that effect, it acts to cap the number of summons that the Summoner can have active at any one time. Thus it will start full (presumably 100) and be depleted with each summon and restored upon the summons death or dismisal. Generally it is desirable that a Summoner be able to maintain their summons 'up' with ease because unlike classes which deal damage with Mana or other resources and can breifly disengage, drink potions, use resets etc and return to combat at full effectiness, a summoner who has lost all their summons and needs to resummon them can get stuck in a loop of having the summons killed as fast as they are made and thus they can't rebound to their proper effectivness. This is countered by making summoning itself relativly fast but capped so the summoners army is more consistent in power. Also summoning cooldown can ramp up the more summons (and thus less Control) the summoner has thus giving a faster rebound at low counts while still giving oponents a meaningful chance to keep summon counts from maxing out by killing them faster then the slowed cooldown.
If multiple kinds of summonables are available they would have unique control costs, a cheap one might be 12 and a costly one 30. Summoners skill tree could lower costs of specific summon types to be able to have more of them, or raise the summons strength, or both depending on where you put the points. And a Summoner could choose what type of summons to actually bring to battle, maybe summoning all the same type in one situation and all of another type in another situation or switching them mid battle rather then in system which just cap each type individually and thus always result in a mixed composition which can't adapt on the fly.
In addition to summoning costing Control a Summoner can issue orders which likewise cost control to maintain while active. Orders are location or character target specific simple AI controls like "Defend this area", "Attack that guy", "Defend Me", probably only 1 of each order can be active at a time. All summons obey the nearest order unless their type is specifically ignores it such as an attack summon which will not obey defence orders or visa versa. An order might also potentially buff the summon obeying it (thus a limit of one such buff at a time) in a relevent way, such as an attack speed buff when obeying an attack order, such buffs would probably be optional skills in the tree and would raise the Control cost of the order an appropriate amount. Lasty Orders which are too far away from the summoner (generally the distance of their summon leash) are immedialy dispeled, and any order can be manual dispelled early via the UI, orders markers on the map or on characters are visible only to the summoner so that enemies are not unduely warned, they have to actually watch the summons and see what they are doing.
Orders exist to give the summoner something tactically meaningful to do in combat if they are that 'commanding from the rear' kind of player but come at the cost of having a slight reduction in number of summons active due to the control cost, which should be balanced by the greater efficiency that a good player should be able to squeeze out with orders. Orders are fully optional to use and a summoner can just summon and let the default AI do everything like Diablo 2 Necromancer had to do, this is likely to be the option prefered for Summoners who join in and fight on the frontlines and thus don't feel they have the attention to spare directing their summons, though even they might want that "Defend Me" order.
Because orders work independently of the number of summons a Summoner can independently decide to have many weak summons or fewer stronger ones AND if they want to give orders or not.
I would not say that I percive any need to do away with Mana usage in all archetypes other then Mage. But I DO percive a need for a class resource for the yet to be revealed Summoner and I'd like to describe why.
This Summoner resurce would be called 'Control' or 'Command' or 'Willpower' something to that effect, it acts to cap the number of summons that the Summoner can have active at any one time. Thus it will start full (presumably 100) and be depleted with each summon and restored upon the summons death or dismisal. Generally it is desirable that a Summoner be able to maintain their summons 'up' with ease because unlike classes which deal damage with Mana or other resources and can breifly disengage, drink potions, use resets etc and return to combat at full effectiness, a summoner who has lost all their summons and needs to resummon them can get stuck in a loop of having the summons killed as fast as they are made and thus they can't rebound to their proper effectivness. This is countered by making summoning itself relativly fast but capped so the summoners army is more consistent in power. Also summoning cooldown can ramp up the more summons (and thus less Control) the summoner has thus giving a faster rebound at low counts while still giving oponents a meaningful chance to keep summon counts from maxing out by killing them faster then the slowed cooldown.
If multiple kinds of summonables are available they would have unique control costs, a cheap one might be 12 and a costly one 30. Summoners skill tree could lower costs of specific summon types to be able to have more of them, or raise the summons strength, or both depending on where you put the points. And a Summoner could choose what type of summons to actually bring to battle, maybe summoning all the same type in one situation and all of another type in another situation or switching them mid battle rather then in system which just cap each type individually and thus always result in a mixed composition which can't adapt on the fly.
In addition to summoning costing Control a Summoner can issue orders which likewise cost control to maintain while active. Orders are location or character target specific simple AI controls like "Defend this area", "Attack that guy", "Defend Me", probably only 1 of each order can be active at a time. All summons obey the nearest order unless their type is specifically ignores it such as an attack summon which will not obey defence orders or visa versa. An order might also potentially buff the summon obeying it (thus a limit of one such buff at a time) in a relevent way, such as an attack speed buff when obeying an attack order, such buffs would probably be optional skills in the tree and would raise the Control cost of the order an appropriate amount. Lasty Orders which are too far away from the summoner (generally the distance of their summon leash) are immedialy dispeled, and any order can be manual dispelled early via the UI, orders markers on the map or on characters are visible only to the summoner so that enemies are not unduely warned, they have to actually watch the summons and see what they are doing.
Orders exist to give the summoner something tactically meaningful to do in combat if they are that 'commanding from the rear' kind of player but come at the cost of having a slight reduction in number of summons active due to the control cost, which should be balanced by the greater efficiency that a good player should be able to squeeze out with orders. Orders are fully optional to use and a summoner can just summon and let the default AI do everything like Diablo 2 Necromancer had to do, this is likely to be the option prefered for Summoners who join in and fight on the frontlines and thus don't feel they have the attention to spare directing their summons, though even they might want that "Defend Me" order.
Because orders work independently of the number of summons a Summoner can independently decide to have many weak summons or fewer stronger ones AND if they want to give orders or not.
Lodrig
3
Re: Fixing the Class system
You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.
Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.
And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.
No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.
I think we first need to set what actually makes an ability different enough from one another.
At its core, teleport and charge are both movement skills that displace your character, and move it to another location. How they do it is very important, and also what's very important are the visuals and sound effects.
You are just downplaying the importance of both things here.
How they do it is important, because something that makes you appear at another location almost instantly, has different implications than something that takes time to reach the target. One can be used to traverse terrain faster, to engage easier and avoid cc, to disengage, etc. allowing you more freedom of movement, because it doesn't require a target necessarily, while the other thing does it slower, maybe requires a target, probably deals damage to the target, etc.
Visuals and sound effects are a huge part of what make the ability feel different and separate from one another, and this is the key part that people seem to downplay when talking about augments. It's more important that the visual and sound effects change, than anything else. This is what will easily distinguish your class from everyone else, and make it unique.
I'm really not sure what you expect, and how do you want to make the ability even more different?
If you expect that augments will change your charge ability, into something completely different, unrelated to the base skill, which offers mobility and displaces your character, then you just have to manage your expectations better, because that's not the aim with this system.
Both abilities are the same at its core, but how they achieve their purpose and how they look and sound is what separates them, just like every other ability in the game.
Tell me, what separates Mage's Blizzard ability, and Fighter's Whirlwind? Both are channeled AoEs that deal damage around your character. By your logic, there is not enough difference between the two.
In reality, visuals are different, Blizzard basically rains down projectiles, while Whirlwind allows you to move while channeling it, damage type and status effects they apply are different, etc..
iccer
5