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Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Arya_Yeshe wrote: »I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?
I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all
Thank you for your contribution
Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.
It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!
If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!
Re: Alpha 2 is just a delay.
patrick68794 wrote: »
Those aren't mutually exclusive, just so you're aware.
Nope they ARE exclusive in Alpha, you clearly know nothing about what an Alpha is if you think it is 'Playable'. Please put your ego to the side, listen to what people are sying so you can shed your ignorance and false expectations.
Lodrig
1
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
I don't know how that can be the expectation for Ashes when there has never been any confusion that the labels for Classes are mostly thematic for the combo of Primary and Secondary Archetype.A player who is excited to be a Paladin is not going to be satisfied by a Tank that has Cleric themed abilities. Their expectation is that combining Tank and Cleric yields an entirely unique class. The unique and flavorful names given to each of the class combinations reinforces the idea that they will stand out as unique and flavorful classes that have their OWN unique abilities.
The whole point of a Primary Archetype is that it will be the primary aspect of the character's combat role.
In the sense that, by design, Ashes is balanced for an 8-person Group with one of each Primary Archetype.
Thematic is probably a better term than "flavor".
I don't know what you mean by "OWN unique abilities" when the primary aspect of the Class ability will be the Primary Archetype Active SKill modified significantly with an Augment.
If you put yourself in the shoes of someone who hasn't been following the development of the game its really not hard to see how the archetype names could confuse new people coming into the game. "Paladin" has a certain connotation in gaming and when player see that they can play a Paladin they immediately have some expectations about what that means in game.
What I mean by UNIQUE abilities is that instead of a Paladin (Tank/Cleric) only having Tank abilities which are augmented to be Cleric themed, the Paladin might have a new ability which alters its playstyle. For example;
Paladin (Tank/Cleric): You gain the Divine Power resource and may cast Divine Infusion.
While Grit is active each time you take damage from an enemy attack, gain 1 Divine Power. Whenever you spend Courage you heal yourself for an amount based on the total Courage spent.
Adding simple passives like this for each Archetype combo would really help tie them together thematically as well as give players more synergy paths for their augmented skills and abilities.
Rippley
2
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?
I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all
Thank you for your contribution
Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.
It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!
If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!
We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.
My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure
Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?
I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.
Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?
Arya just doesn't like reading much, don't worry about it.
Intrepid is glad for you to talk more, not less.
Azherae
4
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »Greatwarlord wrote: »Arya_Yeshe wrote: »I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?
I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all
Thank you for your contribution
Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.
It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!
If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!
We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.
My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure
Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?
I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.
Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?
Arya just doesn't like reading much, don't worry about it.
Intrepid is glad for you to talk more, not less.
Exactly. They'd rather you post a thesis than be vague.
Hinotori
2
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
I mean, c’mon, every time I pick a tank or fighter, I wanna just smash stuff, not mess around with mana.
I’m in heavy armor, ready to rumble, not cast spells. Why’s my big bad warrior worrying about mana? Makes no sense. Mana for all classes? Feels like I’m just playing a wizard with different skins. Where’s the variety?
Melee should be about straightforward smashing, not managing some magic pool.
If I wanted to play a wizard, I’d pick a wizard. Please don’t make every class a part-time mage.
You wanna smash huh?
Sinder
3
Re: Dynamic Environments in Raids: What Would You Like to See?
I would like to see SURPRISES!
Like you enter X dungeon to fight some boss. You enter the boss area and instead some other boss shows up with completely different mechanics. Or you get double encounter of 2 bosses. Or you doing some world boss and you get invaded by a goblin army.
Or for example you walking in a dungeon, 1 of the players steps on a tile and falls on the lower floor that has no map of it, and you have no idea what you will encounter there. The rest of the group should decide if they will leave you there to die solo, or will they jump down to try and explore together with you
Like you enter X dungeon to fight some boss. You enter the boss area and instead some other boss shows up with completely different mechanics. Or you get double encounter of 2 bosses. Or you doing some world boss and you get invaded by a goblin army.
Or for example you walking in a dungeon, 1 of the players steps on a tile and falls on the lower floor that has no map of it, and you have no idea what you will encounter there. The rest of the group should decide if they will leave you there to die solo, or will they jump down to try and explore together with you
Githal
3
Re: Dynamic Environments in Raids: What Would You Like to See?
I think some basic 'Push your luck' mechanics would be good. Basically as you go deeper you have the choice to take a modest reward and exit, or to go deeper and risk going for the full prize. This will let the whole place be harder overall without being excessivly frustrating and let smaller/weaker groups bite off the amount they can actually handle.
Lodrig
1
Re: Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics
Greatwarlord wrote: »1) Regarding the lore-based explanation for using Mana universally—I get that there might be a thematic or narrative reason behind it. However, my thought is whether the lore could evolve or expand to incorporate different resource systems that might fit the class identities even better. Lore is crucial, but it's also often flexible enough to adapt for improved gameplay dynamics. Steven has also stated that not *all* being in Verra have the same ability to tap into "essence".
One of the great differentiators between mortal divine races and the gods is that aspect of mortality. And one of the ways that the divine races were created in order to interact with the Essence was through the use of a mortal coil; and that mortal coil was malleable. Your soul was malleable. It could change to adopt a greater connection with the Essence around one particular school of magic perhaps, or one type of magic that you might use Essence for. And the more you experienced that, the more adept you became with utilizing that magic. And that's because your coil would start to mold itself to best facilitate that flow of essence: whatever school of magic you were manipulating with it.[14] – Steven Sharif
In terms that I could understand this translates to:
There is a cosmic power called Essence. Mortals have souls. In the sould there is a "processing plant" (the mortal coil) for Essence that, fueled by mana, creates magic. The magic that comes out of processing plant is determined by a deep dedication to master something. For example a mage had a lifetime of preparation to form their soul to be able to turn Essence into domination of Fire, Ice, Lightining and the Void. The are performing what many will think of as magic in the classical sense. However, a Tank conjuring up a cone behind which his allies are protected from harm is by "logical, real world standards" just as much magic - and in the world of Ashes of Creation it is indeed that: Magic. Just not elemental magic, but protective magic.
So by the time you finished your character creation and click on play from a story perspective, your character has spent a few decades devoting themselves to that one particular kind of magic that you select via choice of your first Archetype, which is also why you won't be able to fundamentally move away from that even after choosing a different secondary Archetype. Us levelling up in that line of thinking means that the connection to our Archetypes magic grows strong, resulting in new skills.
And you gotta admit, the mortal coil explanation is better than how rage or combopoints alone could lead a normal mortal to perform superhuman feats. Furthermore it has been teased that this lore element will come up in the story of Ashes of Creation.
So in total it means - to fit that primary resource change in the way that souls and the mortal coil work in Ashes' lore would have to be changed fundamentally, which is unlikely since Steven told us that he doesn't want to change the fundamental priciples of game mechanics or the lore. And as a story writer myself I definitely understand that.
As to the last point that "not all beings in Verra have the same ability to tap into the Essence.": Yes, those are most of the NPCs. Their soul did not connect to any type of miracle level of magic to the point that they got to have an Archetype.Greatwarlord wrote: »2) About the Fighter's "Momentum" and the Tank's "Grit"— Yes, however my main point, though, is about the primary resource. Even with unique sub-resources like Momentum and Grit, the use of Mana as the main resource still feels a bit generic across such varied classes. Perhaps these unique resources could become the main ones? It might enrich the gameplay experience, making each class's resource management more unique and engaging, rather than just a secondary layer to Mana.
I'm all for integrating lore and unique mechanics smoothly. If we can have classes that feel distinctly different not just in abilities but also in how they manage and utilize their resources, that could really set Ashes apart in the crowded MMO space.
Like mentioned before this would require Steven to accept fundamental changes to a world building element that he had laid out long before this became the part of the plot for a video game, this dates back to TTRPG times when Verra was a Pathfinder campaign.
I think people could equally argue that having the same main resources like fighters and rogues in every other game is generic. "Oh another Fighter building up a 0 to 100 Rage bar", "Hey there is the Rogue again, stacking combo points whatever that is". I'm not sure how many MMORPGs these days have a mana-only resource system, so I can't deny or confirm that such a change would actually set Ashes more apart from other games.Greatwarlord wrote: »What do you think? Could there be room to tweak the lore and resource systems to make them even more class-specific?
With the things I have pointed to above: Do you still think this is something that could easily been done at this point, given how much class and story development has already been done? Or that it is worthwhile?
You've really delved deep into the lore—much deeper than I have obviously!
Regarding the mortal coil and its connection to Essence—your explanation does make the universal use of Mana as a primary resource quite compelling from a lore standpoint. It’s fascinating to see how deeply rooted these concepts are in the game’s narrative foundation, and Steven’s vision from the TTRPG days does bring a rich background / explanation to it.
However, even with this solid lore foundation, Might there still be some creative room to explore? For instance, while the mortal coil processes Essence into various forms of magic, could we not imagine this process being more physically manifested in some classes? Perhaps for Tanks and Fighters, this "processing" could translate into physical enhancements or battle readiness (akin to Rage or Stamina), reflecting their unique connection to Essence that isn’t traditionally magical but is still a product of their deep, lifelong training and dedication. Hell, call it magical-rage if you want.
This wouldn’t necessarily require a fundamental change to the lore but could be an expansion of how different beings interact with Essence uniquely. Such an adaptation could keep the core principles intact while allowing for gameplay diversity that enhances the distinctiveness of non- or less-magical classes. It might also align well with the notion that not all beings connect to the Essence in the same magical capacity, providing a lore-friendly way to diversify class resources.
As to whether this is feasible at this point in development, who knows, especially considering how much has already been set in stone. Yet, if there's flexibility in the lore to allow for such interpretations, it could be a worthwhile endeavor to enhance player immersion and class identity, making each class feel truly unique in how they harness their power.
Honestly, I just want to roleplay as a dwarf warrior who's blissfully unaware of any fancy magic or wizardry. Picture this: a stout, tough-as-nails dwarf who thinks all this magical mumbo jumbo is just tricks and nonsense. He’s all about the clang of his axe and the thrill of battle. Even though, technically, he’s kind of magical himself—what with being able to perform feats beyond the ordinary dwarf.
It’d be awesome to play a game where my fighter’s strength and resilience come from training and grit, not just tapping into some mystical force. Isn’t there room in this vast world for a warrior who’s just... a warrior? Not a clandestine wizard in armor. That’s the fantasy I’m after—keeping it real with steel and courage, no mana bar attached.
Obviously my fantasy and opinion is biased as is anybody's, but hey I'm just trying to give my feedback in the appropriate place, and in a respectful manner as that's literally what Intrepid keeps asking us to do. Perhaps this will all be fine too, maybe I'll come to realize wizard fighters are super cool and that they play well, I guess we'll see.