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Re: Fixing the Class system
How is monk different from a fighter? How is shaman different from a mage?AirborneBerserker wrote: »Mage, Monk, Fighter, Shaman are all classes. While some of them are similar they all have different playstyles, different armor, different weapons, different spells and abilities.
Re: Fixing the Class system
Personally, I am not commenting much on the class system until we learn what exactly the details of the class system are.
Re: Fixing the Class system
AirborneBerserker wrote: »Do we even know anything about the augmentations that clearly shows the focus?
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes, then you'll have a number of augments that you'll be able to apply on a per-ability basis; and your core ability kit comes from your primary archetype selection; and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection." – Steven Sharif
"The intent behind the augment system is not to provide new active abilities. They're intended to augment existing active abilities that are provided through your primary archetype; and so your secondary archetype selection completes your class selection, of which there's 64 types and you get augment skills that can apply certain attributes and mechanics to your existing active skills. So, if you have certain abilities, like a backstab as a Rogue primary archetype, and you take that healer secondary archetype selection, now the properties of your backstab will still remain the same as an active ability, however it might include things like life steal, or it might include things like susceptible weakness to the target, and reduces their healing because the definition of what those augments are intended to provide based on the archetype selected for the augments is within the schools of magic that live for that archetype: so a Cleric is about balancing life and death and the control of those types of hit points." – Steven SharifBy design, Augments are more than just extra particles.AirborneBerserker wrote: »Telling a player after what will be probably months of play time, they get some extra particles when they twirl their sword now isn't enough or a passive effect, isn't exactly ground breaking.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
By design my statement of adding particles is closer to the truth then saying augments will create a different "class".
So you're okay with the devs at the very least using misleading language to sell a product, but if I make a rhetorical statement because I've run out of ways of saying augments aren't enough that needs to be nipped bud right away. Got it.
Scroll down and read the whole wiki page while you are at it. There are a few more things that describe how augments will work.
Nobody has ever argued that augments will create a different class, with totally unique set of abilities and mechanics. Your class = combination of 2 archetypes. Fighter is not a class, but an archetype.
iccer
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
Do we even know anything about the augmentations that clearly shows the focus?
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
Kilion
1
Re: What is the definition of "Flavor" in reference to the secondary augment system?
Steven said that he was going to try for Action/Tab hybrid and that if they couldn't find a way to have satisfactory hybrid and he had to pick Action or Tab, he would choose Tab.George_Black wrote: »You have no way to measure majority of the people being disappointed.If the majority of the people you want to entice into playing your game are "disappointed" with the class system don't you think it might make sense to revisit your design philosophy surrounding classes?
The devs are better able to asses that than we are - but...
We haven't seen what Ashes Classes are like yet, so...
Test it and find out...
Was there a reckoning for action/tab? I'm pretty sure Ashes still has a hybrid action/tab like they always claimed they would.
They claimed that:
1) you would toggle based on your preferance
2) ranged will mostly be target and melee action
What we see now is:
Ranged is tab target
Melee is aoe
Weapon attacks are action
It should be obvious that they found limitations and it doesnt look like the original proposal that you can switch at will between action and tab, no matter what type you play.
Maybe your memory is not good, and you cant put together older statements and the course of presentations leading up to what we have now so that you csn conclude that it didnt work out as intended.
There were countless topics around the promise of action and tab. I dont know why you cant accept reality.
The devs found a way to provide a hybrid system that works to Steven's satisfaction. With feedback from players AFTER players saw and tested Action/Tab combat.
That is the reality.
Delays...
Delays...
We have seen what "play as you want" does to build variety in other games. The discussion is valid. We dont need to wait.
Just like people gave feedback on the combat (and it changed) we are giving feedback on the class system.
Dont discount it. If all you have to say is wait and see, dont post. Go do smthg else.
People are being constructive here. Dont annoy them.
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
.I think you mean if I put myself in the shoes of someone who does not employ critical thinking and who only skims info about a game before I choose play.If you put yourself in the shoes of someone who hasn't been following the development of the game its really not hard to see how the archetype names could confuse new people coming into the game. "Paladin" has a certain connotation in gaming and when player see that they can play a Paladin they immediately have some expectations about what that means in game.
Different settings tend to have different rulesets. And sometimes different terms and definitions.Divine Infusion is an Active Skill rather than an Augment?Paladin (Tank/Cleric): You gain the Divine Power resource and may cast Divine Infusion.
While Grit is active each time you take damage from an enemy attack, gain 1 Divine Power. Whenever you spend Courage you heal yourself for an amount based on the total Courage spent.
What you describe is not the Ashes game design.
Intentionally not the Ashes game design - as far as I can tell.
With the current Ashes design, seems easy enough to just add a self-heal Augment onto a few of the Tank Active Skills you use frequently.
No.
If I'm talking to a friend about a game I'm playing and he asks what class I play and I say PALADIN, that is going to evoke something very specific in his mind. If a Paladin isn't a Holy Warrior motivated by righteousness and virtue, protector of the innocent and slayer of the wicked, then it IS NOT a Paladin. Implying that people who assume Paladin means the same thing in AoC that it has in every RPG for the past 20 years somehow lack critical thinking skills is pretty disingenuous.
And also to be quite honest I'm growing a little impatient with people who engage with these questions by citing back to the commenter CHAPTER and VERSE on what Ashes is or isn't. There is not game yet, it doesn't work one way or another because it doesn't exist yet. Augments can work however the developers want them to work and there are literally YEARS of development time before anything concrete happens on this front. The people questioning the Augment system are simply trying to ensure that we get the best system possible.
Comments like "That's not the Ashes game design" or "That's not how augments work" completely miss the point. If you can articulate WHY you don't think the suggestions I have made match the stated design goals of AoC then by all means explain it to me so that we can have a more productive conversation.
If AoC paladin is a warrior with some holy skills that is a paladin. Being crossed with cleric makes it fit the narrative the general audience would see as paladin.
The way some of their skills will work will be unique in terms of being a paladin, having some healing and holy type effects / skills.
Ie example would be the jump skill could have some wings on it and when they land it cleanses some debuffs on allies and give them some sort of small hp regen while they are within the circle of them landing.
Which provides unique elements to that skill other warrior types do not have.
Mag7spy
2
Re: What is the definition of "Flavor" in reference to the secondary augment system?
I mean considering the fighter's "charge" example once u add augments to 1/3 of ur skills it probably does change the way you play, even just charge augment changes it a lot in that example cause tp adds a lot to the skill.
Also summoner changing summons based on secondary archetype seems like a pretty big change.
Tank currently has option on his "wall" skill to either go for shorter but wider wall, taller but thinner, or normal wall which is transparent for allies while enemiea cant see thorugh. So what if those end up being an augment, its a decently big change.
So i think it depends on more things, which class is getting augmented, which skill, with which augment etc. For some skills it could be big change whereas for others it coukd be just differenr dmg type.
We shall see!
Also summoner changing summons based on secondary archetype seems like a pretty big change.
Tank currently has option on his "wall" skill to either go for shorter but wider wall, taller but thinner, or normal wall which is transparent for allies while enemiea cant see thorugh. So what if those end up being an augment, its a decently big change.
So i think it depends on more things, which class is getting augmented, which skill, with which augment etc. For some skills it could be big change whereas for others it coukd be just differenr dmg type.
We shall see!
Chunka
2
Re: Fixing the Class system
Not just that. Steven pretty much said "well, we do have some kind of plans for them, but we don't really know shit because we haven't even started working on them, cause we need archetypes first".Just an observation, and you can take what you will from it. We’ve seen more in game footage on the mayoral system, which very few players will use than footage about secondary archetype augments, which every player will use.
We haven't heard shit about this HUUUUUGE system. And considering how damn long it'll take to balance-test all of this shit - I am really starting to think that 2030 is not off the table.
Re: Consternation surrounding the 8x8 Class system and how to move forward.
And people saw that.
Re: What are your 'class fantasies' for the 64 classes
my greatest fantasy is that when playing my Ranger/Ranger nobody calls out:
Ranger Down !!
Ranger Down !!
Caww
2