Best Of
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
I would prefer story content to not be interruptible by PvP, even if it does offer significant rewards. Imagine some god/angel transporting your raid to the harbinger moon in order to face an ancient, the dialogue is epic, the stakes are the fate of Verra. Then some other guild comes rolling through while you fight the ancient and wipes you out. That would be really lame from a narrative standpoint.
The god/angel would be like:
As for people arguing against rewards... I don't really understand. Yeah, risk is a pillar of the game, but risk of PvP is only one avenue for creating risk. If a rival raid comes through and wipes you out, the end result is basically the same as if the difficulty of the instanced raid wipes you out. The risk is not succeeding, of investing time and not getting a return. You don't need hostile players to accomplish that.
I would agree if the instanced content was trivial and gave better rewards, but to expect that defies logic.
The god/angel would be like:
As for people arguing against rewards... I don't really understand. Yeah, risk is a pillar of the game, but risk of PvP is only one avenue for creating risk. If a rival raid comes through and wipes you out, the end result is basically the same as if the difficulty of the instanced raid wipes you out. The risk is not succeeding, of investing time and not getting a return. You don't need hostile players to accomplish that.
I would agree if the instanced content was trivial and gave better rewards, but to expect that defies logic.
arkileo
1
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
It's hard to see how difficult the content is, but keep the content as difficult as possible. I'm really sick of MMOs just giving you free gear with content that can be cleared by someone with their eyes closed mashing their face across the keyboard. There should be gear checks and skill checks to all the end game content so that people have something to spend time progressing through as new content is being made. Don't balance things for people that can't tie their own shoes, balance it so that the average player has a hard time going through it.
For a quest, this raid content was good, but generally I prefer content that takes 2~ hours for a full on raid.
I have nothing but negative experiences when it comes to world bosses and open instances. Either the world boss is open season for everyone and is a loot pinata, or it's a push over boss with occasional trolls trying to muck up a fight. I'm hoping you all plan for instanced content when it comes to the extremely difficult PVE content, otherwise you will be unable to design truly difficult encounters under the pressure of potential PVP.
I do really like that this boss was spawned via an event so that it can be coordinated by a guild at a certain time, rather than having to wait on a respawn timer. NEVER have world bosses spawn based off respawn times, otherwise they will be elusively camped by the best guilds who will have to pvp for hours with each other before finally fighting the boss. People will create a discord keeping track of the exact respawn times, so there will never be a mystery to it. Even if it is randomized, they will keep track of that range and people will announce it in the discord.
Loved the animations on the dragon. It all went beyond what I was expecting out of Alpha, so I'm looking forward to what's to come. Monster Hunter has the best creature animation I've ever seen so it's a good reference, but this looked pretty damn good for an MMO. This fight had a good variety of mechanics, but I would love content that has such hard mechanics that it takes 200+ attempts to down the boss.
For a quest, this raid content was good, but generally I prefer content that takes 2~ hours for a full on raid.
I have nothing but negative experiences when it comes to world bosses and open instances. Either the world boss is open season for everyone and is a loot pinata, or it's a push over boss with occasional trolls trying to muck up a fight. I'm hoping you all plan for instanced content when it comes to the extremely difficult PVE content, otherwise you will be unable to design truly difficult encounters under the pressure of potential PVP.
I do really like that this boss was spawned via an event so that it can be coordinated by a guild at a certain time, rather than having to wait on a respawn timer. NEVER have world bosses spawn based off respawn times, otherwise they will be elusively camped by the best guilds who will have to pvp for hours with each other before finally fighting the boss. People will create a discord keeping track of the exact respawn times, so there will never be a mystery to it. Even if it is randomized, they will keep track of that range and people will announce it in the discord.
Loved the animations on the dragon. It all went beyond what I was expecting out of Alpha, so I'm looking forward to what's to come. Monster Hunter has the best creature animation I've ever seen so it's a good reference, but this looked pretty damn good for an MMO. This fight had a good variety of mechanics, but I would love content that has such hard mechanics that it takes 200+ attempts to down the boss.
PiriPiri
3
Re: Boneworking
I hope crafting with bone falls under leatherworking (as a crafting from remains sort of artisan class)
I could carve a tiara out of dragon bones. will it be good armor?, no.
will it be an amazing gift for a loved one? 100%
and I need to make some drinking horns for my home because no home is complete without them.
I agree. We need more gothic items. Drink from a skull like Conan did
multi use shoulder plates!
Kyskei
2
Re: Boneworking
I hope crafting with bone falls under leatherworking (as a crafting from remains sort of artisan class)
I could carve a tiara out of dragon bones. will it be good armor?, no.
will it be an amazing gift for a loved one? 100%
and I need to make some drinking horns for my home because no home is complete without them.
I agree. We need more gothic items. Drink from a skull like Conan did
Re: World boss and greater loot drop idea/discussion
Caravan makes sense for dungeon loot and boss lairs. You might need mules to get to the entrance of the dungeon/lair for loading onto the caravan.
The event could also open up a limited time for farming mats. Think we’ve seen some of this in other streams dealing with corruption zones.
The event could also open up a limited time for farming mats. Think we’ve seen some of this in other streams dealing with corruption zones.
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
PlasticLemons wrote: »It's important for AoC to avoid instanced content as much as possible since the basis of the game is player interaction.
They are avoiding instanced content as much as possible, hence why it's only 20% of content, but in some places you simply cannot balance an encounter without closing off the combat area. It's just not possible to do unless they dumb down the fights encounters and deny themselves the chance to use all sorts of mechanics, which is not what I want to see from them.
The challenge should come from the encounter once you've fought your way through mobs and other players to that final room in the dungeon. High-end content is there to test your teamwork and skill, not your patience for trolling from other players as the most noteworthy 'difficulty' facet.
I’m on my phone, It’s a OW PvX game, there shouldn’t be even 20% of the content.
Much hasn’t changed with the raid only crowd in the last twenty + years I’ve been playing MMOs.
At this point I don’t think I owe it to you when you talk at people, not interested in dialogue because you haven’t played an open world dungeon before. Your lack of experience doesn’t constitute anything on my part.
The bulk of your argument is “it’s impossible for devs to make great PvE content in the presence of PvP”.
You just haven’t seen it, that’s your problem.
No, I've said that it's not possible to design a high-precision raid if you have to account for other players actively attempting to sabotage it. I even gave you an example of how it happens in the face of punishing mechanics, more than one in fact but you haven't actually addressed any of it.
I've asked you to share these games that you claim have successfully blended extremely difficult boss encounters with an open PvP area, and you've declined to provide even one example. I'd be happy to engage in dialogue if you actually provided some evidence to back up your claim, as it goes against common sense and many people's direct experience with mixed PvX combat encounters.
Caeryl
1
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
PlasticLemons wrote: »It's important for AoC to avoid instanced content as much as possible since the basis of the game is player interaction.
They are avoiding instanced content as much as possible, hence why it's only 20% of content, but in some places you simply cannot balance an encounter without closing off the combat area. It's just not possible to do unless they dumb down the fights encounters and deny themselves the chance to use all sorts of mechanics, which is not what I want to see from them.
The challenge should come from the encounter once you've fought your way through mobs and other players to that final room in the dungeon. High-end content is there to test your teamwork and skill, not your patience for trolling from other players as the most noteworthy 'difficulty' facet.
Caeryl
1
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
Caeryl
3
Re: Loot System Changes
This dragon fight looked awesome, you could feel the love and attention the entire team put into it to make it look like a great experience. Then I saw the loot at the end and my heart sunk. I was reminded of every bad experience working with toxic guilds, groups, and individuals to simply get the gear I want/need. My MMO experience begins with EQ1, so I had a lot of those experiences throughout all the MMOs I played.
FF14 got close to doing it best and that was probably my longest played MMO. It also has the most healthy community or players. Therefore, I don't hesitate to ever play it again. As Kleptix mentioned, I won't go back to playing games like EQ2 because of poor loot experiences.
If the raid/event is successfully finished, everyone should leave it feeling gratified. Like someone else mentioned, I am also far more hesitant to engage in these events knowing how much time and effort they take if the chance I'm going to get to item I need/want is 1/30, 1/40, or none at all because a group of players are telling me I can't because of their guild structure or whatever.
I won't be getting the game if this isn't changed. There is no amount of quality that can change the above mentioned, and not mentioned, negative experiences that I have had throughout the years of playing MMOs with similar loot systems.
FF14 got close to doing it best and that was probably my longest played MMO. It also has the most healthy community or players. Therefore, I don't hesitate to ever play it again. As Kleptix mentioned, I won't go back to playing games like EQ2 because of poor loot experiences.
If the raid/event is successfully finished, everyone should leave it feeling gratified. Like someone else mentioned, I am also far more hesitant to engage in these events knowing how much time and effort they take if the chance I'm going to get to item I need/want is 1/30, 1/40, or none at all because a group of players are telling me I can't because of their guild structure or whatever.
I won't be getting the game if this isn't changed. There is no amount of quality that can change the above mentioned, and not mentioned, negative experiences that I have had throughout the years of playing MMOs with similar loot systems.
Mdini
2
Re: Instanced Content Should Not Offer Power Gains
The only people that think that are people that have not seen actual good PvE encounters.PlasticLemons wrote: »It's important for AoC to avoid instanced content as much as possible since the basis of the game is player interaction.
They are avoiding instanced content as much as possible, hence why it's only 20% of content, but in some places you simply cannot balance an encounter without closing off the combat area. It's just not possible to do unless they dumb down the fights encounters and deny themselves the chance to use all sorts of mechanics, which is not what I want to see from them.
The challenge should come from the encounter once you've fought your way through mobs and other players to that final room in the dungeon. High-end content is there to test your teamwork and skill, not your patience for trolling from other players as the most noteworthy 'difficulty' facet.
I’m on my phone, It’s a OW PvX game, there shouldn’t be even 20% of the content.
Much hasn’t changed with the raid only crowd in the last twenty + years I’ve been playing MMOs.
At this point I don’t think I owe it to you when you talk at people, not interested in dialogue because you haven’t played an open world dungeon before. Your lack of experience doesn’t constitute anything on my part.
The bulk of your argument is “it’s impossible for devs to make great PvE content in the presence of PvP”.
You just haven’t seen it, that’s your problem.
No, I've said that it's not possible to design a high-precision raid if you have to account for other players actively attempting to sabotage it. I even gave you an example of how it happens in the face of punishing mechanics, more than one in fact but you haven't actually addressed any of it.
I've asked you to share these games that you claim have successfully blended extremely difficult boss encounters with an open PvP area, and you've declined to provide even one example. I'd be happy to engage in dialogue if you actually provided some evidence to back up your claim, as it goes against common sense and many people's direct experience with mixed PvX combat encounters.
Yeah dude, because you've been in instanced encounters you can only see it from the instanced pov.
You just think "only the encounter", the PvXer thinks give me the hard encounter + the threat, no need to dumb it down. If you cannot conceive how it would work that's fine, you only want encounters.
Noaani
2