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Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
I'm curious to know how AoEs work in the PvE setting, especially relating to flagging.
If you're unflagged, what happens when another unflagged player walks into your AoE?
What if they're a combatant? What if they're corrupted? What if they're corrupted AND attacking you?
My main concern is whether players can abuse your use of AoEs to flag you against your will.
If you're unflagged, what happens when another unflagged player walks into your AoE?
What if they're a combatant? What if they're corrupted? What if they're corrupted AND attacking you?
My main concern is whether players can abuse your use of AoEs to flag you against your will.
TehOwn
2
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
I understand that some games just can't make challenging content whose AoE attacks are actually sensibly connected to their character models (again, discounting Mage type enemies, who can be done like the Poison Elder Dragon from A1 or the Twins, shown below for reminders)
(man I love watching that fight...)
As the person in our group that deals with adds, off tanking, and large area of effect damage this would normally be where I have a lot to say. Rewatching these fights after seeing Firebrand, however, reminds me just how much I was really prepared to play 'classic' AoC as it's being affectionately referred to. What an excellent example of how well done AoE effects and large scale combat can be done. I miss that poison dragon. I miss those eldritch nightmares. So much so, that I'm going to let my group leader handle the rest on this topic out of respect for the past development.
JustVine
1
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
I absolutely love the way AoE was handed in Ashes of Creation Alpha-1. I believe A1 Ashes already counts for me as the pinnacle of immersive, fun and most importantly relevant/visually appealing AoE effect and telegraph displays. Those days were the '10/10, no notes' days for me.
This isn't a critique of anything seen recently either, mostly because we haven't seen much of anything recently that I believe needed a true AoE telegraph.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I believe that there is minimal need to telegraph AoE to enemies in PvP except for continuous effects such as Blizzard from Mages. My preference for combat design is much simpler. I don't care about 'everyone being able to theoretically react to everything', particularly in PvP, so the 'windup animation' of the telegraph matters more than any indicator of the AoE target zone of the ability.
If a mage has the ability to cast a spell 'behind them' or 'at their own feet' (e.g. Sevarog using Subjugate for an escape in Predecessor), I feel that PvP is actually cheapened by having any indicator that this specifically is happening, but I strongly believe in having an indicator that they are planning to cast something.
So overall, to keep it simple for this post, I don't think AoE needs to be telegraphed. Any AoE that is 'so instant that you can't get out of it anyway' or 'so instant after the startup animation that you couldn't', should either not be very powerful, or have a clear and visible startup. Preferably with sparks of power of some kind on the user and a relatively clear idea of where it will go based on their facing direction. This might end up being too 'Action Combat' but I believe with the Hybrid Combat style, this is a reasonable ask for people. "You must be facing the area you want to put Chains of Restraint in order to put it there", even if you only turn to face that spot after you begin the channel for it.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
No strong opinion. If the game is designed around making people have the skill to tell them apart, they should be able to. If it is less this, then it matters less to me. An MMO, of course, has the issue of their being far too many players to 'read/know the intent'. In a smaller battle game, even when two of the same character/build are available, you can generally tell whose AoE you are dealing with by having some idea of the 'intent'. However, since even this is sometimes a skill issue within groups, I guess I'd err on the side of making them distinguishable from each other whenever this doesn't ramp up a performance cost or something.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Somewhat, since PvE AoE tend to be much bigger. Even when they're not persistent. But I only care about this when they're disjointed from the visual representation in some way, and I don't really enjoy games where the idea is 'move out of the RedZone Telegraph'. I dislike them even more when the design to 'mix it up' involves having some abilities that don't have the telegraphs, because it makes working with Pick Up Groups, or less skilled players, a whole emotional management minigame. I don't come to MMOs to play emotional management minigames, but I do still want to organically play with others.
I understand that some games just can't make challenging content whose AoE attacks are actually sensibly connected to their character models (again, discounting Mage type enemies, who can be done like the Poison Elder Dragon from A1 or the Twins, shown below for reminders)
(man I love watching that fight...)
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I have minimal examples for this. I love FFXI of course, but that's a 'Raiding is Reading' game by most standards, (a concept referenced in my most recent TheoryRaid thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60640/lets-theoryraid-5-tiamat-ffxi-vs-firebrand ). The Telegraph there is 'X starts casting Y on Z' or 'X readies Y' and then you look at where X is facing. I don't want this.
Nearly every other game that has this goes right to the redzone territory and I hate it every time. It's not immersive, it's almost always conveying an effect that takes place instantly after a certain period and which can, in many cases, just shred you, making you look/feel like an idiot for not avoiding it, etc.
A simple example from Onigiri (this video claims to be a Momotarou fight, but also includes an entire Tiamat fight, solo, easy mode both, but this is good, as it doesn't drag on, while still showing off basically all moves of each)
And for contrast(?) a simple TL fight with some larger 'telegraphs', TL is useful as an example for me because it has all three types:
1. Attacks that have a windup but no TL equivalent of any 'redzone', just facing, and an obvious follow-through
2. Attacks that have a windup but also the TL 'redzone' (the circle warning, but since these fury attacks all have different startups, you use that as your marker to 'pay attention to the animation', not as an autoresponse, basically changing from the FFXI style 'reading the log' to a 'reading the screen')
3. Attacks that have a ground telegraph and maybe some dialogue but not always the circle warning.
Even better for me, FFXI+L2-lovechild fan as I am, the '2' type matches FFXI's 'X readies Y' without any actual information about the target, so you get that feeling (this might not be a positive for most people) of 'knowing that you have a damage opportunity because you trust your Tank and believe they are the target' without a redzone to confirm it.
As the introductory group boss of TL, this satisfied all my wishes exactly and made me feel the same as fighting in Alpha-1, a case of 'TL making me nostalgic for AoC'.
I absolutely love the way AoE was handed in Ashes of Creation Alpha-1. I believe A1 Ashes already counts for me as the pinnacle of immersive, fun and most importantly relevant/visually appealing AoE effect and telegraph displays. Those days were the '10/10, no notes' days for me.
This isn't a critique of anything seen recently either, mostly because we haven't seen much of anything recently that I believe needed a true AoE telegraph.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I believe that there is minimal need to telegraph AoE to enemies in PvP except for continuous effects such as Blizzard from Mages. My preference for combat design is much simpler. I don't care about 'everyone being able to theoretically react to everything', particularly in PvP, so the 'windup animation' of the telegraph matters more than any indicator of the AoE target zone of the ability.
If a mage has the ability to cast a spell 'behind them' or 'at their own feet' (e.g. Sevarog using Subjugate for an escape in Predecessor), I feel that PvP is actually cheapened by having any indicator that this specifically is happening, but I strongly believe in having an indicator that they are planning to cast something.
So overall, to keep it simple for this post, I don't think AoE needs to be telegraphed. Any AoE that is 'so instant that you can't get out of it anyway' or 'so instant after the startup animation that you couldn't', should either not be very powerful, or have a clear and visible startup. Preferably with sparks of power of some kind on the user and a relatively clear idea of where it will go based on their facing direction. This might end up being too 'Action Combat' but I believe with the Hybrid Combat style, this is a reasonable ask for people. "You must be facing the area you want to put Chains of Restraint in order to put it there", even if you only turn to face that spot after you begin the channel for it.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
No strong opinion. If the game is designed around making people have the skill to tell them apart, they should be able to. If it is less this, then it matters less to me. An MMO, of course, has the issue of their being far too many players to 'read/know the intent'. In a smaller battle game, even when two of the same character/build are available, you can generally tell whose AoE you are dealing with by having some idea of the 'intent'. However, since even this is sometimes a skill issue within groups, I guess I'd err on the side of making them distinguishable from each other whenever this doesn't ramp up a performance cost or something.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Somewhat, since PvE AoE tend to be much bigger. Even when they're not persistent. But I only care about this when they're disjointed from the visual representation in some way, and I don't really enjoy games where the idea is 'move out of the RedZone Telegraph'. I dislike them even more when the design to 'mix it up' involves having some abilities that don't have the telegraphs, because it makes working with Pick Up Groups, or less skilled players, a whole emotional management minigame. I don't come to MMOs to play emotional management minigames, but I do still want to organically play with others.
I understand that some games just can't make challenging content whose AoE attacks are actually sensibly connected to their character models (again, discounting Mage type enemies, who can be done like the Poison Elder Dragon from A1 or the Twins, shown below for reminders)
(man I love watching that fight...)
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I have minimal examples for this. I love FFXI of course, but that's a 'Raiding is Reading' game by most standards, (a concept referenced in my most recent TheoryRaid thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60640/lets-theoryraid-5-tiamat-ffxi-vs-firebrand ). The Telegraph there is 'X starts casting Y on Z' or 'X readies Y' and then you look at where X is facing. I don't want this.
Nearly every other game that has this goes right to the redzone territory and I hate it every time. It's not immersive, it's almost always conveying an effect that takes place instantly after a certain period and which can, in many cases, just shred you, making you look/feel like an idiot for not avoiding it, etc.
A simple example from Onigiri (this video claims to be a Momotarou fight, but also includes an entire Tiamat fight, solo, easy mode both, but this is good, as it doesn't drag on, while still showing off basically all moves of each)
And for contrast(?) a simple TL fight with some larger 'telegraphs', TL is useful as an example for me because it has all three types:
1. Attacks that have a windup but no TL equivalent of any 'redzone', just facing, and an obvious follow-through
2. Attacks that have a windup but also the TL 'redzone' (the circle warning, but since these fury attacks all have different startups, you use that as your marker to 'pay attention to the animation', not as an autoresponse, basically changing from the FFXI style 'reading the log' to a 'reading the screen')
3. Attacks that have a ground telegraph and maybe some dialogue but not always the circle warning.
Even better for me, FFXI+L2-lovechild fan as I am, the '2' type matches FFXI's 'X readies Y' without any actual information about the target, so you get that feeling (this might not be a positive for most people) of 'knowing that you have a damage opportunity because you trust your Tank and believe they are the target' without a redzone to confirm it.
As the introductory group boss of TL, this satisfied all my wishes exactly and made me feel the same as fighting in Alpha-1, a case of 'TL making me nostalgic for AoC'.
Azherae
1
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
I think the primary issue point to focus on here with Ashes is the fidelity of AoEs. There are two sides to this issue. Either you use clear and concise circular and rectangular AoEs to ensure that the player can apply the maximum amount of skill during gameplay. Or, you allow beauty and creativity to take paramount.
In my opinion, Ashes should always go for the latter. It is clear that Ashes is building the MMORPG that we've always wanted. As Intrepid and us enjoyers often state, we're trying to follow the rules that the acronym set forth. Roleplaying game is the concept that I'm far more concerned with here.
"Realistically" Magic doesn't work in perfect circles, physical attacks don't work in perfect circles. Things are shaped to the caster's creativity, the shape of the weapon, the intention behind the maneuver. This means that the impact of AoEs should be fluid, have unique shapes, and challenge the player to use their skill in unconventional matters rather than simply reacting really fast to big bad red circle.
Does this sacrifice ease of development and visual clarity for the sake of cosmetic satisfaction and immersion? Absolutely, and I have no regrets. If people have conflicts with the concept of uniquely shaped AoEs in association with skill, clarity and creativity... Look no further than league of legends. Champs like Aatrox and Diana have incredibly unique interacts with the shape of their attacks. Although there is always reason to complain with Riot's capability to handle a game... I think they have created some absolutely gorgeous game interactions with some of the uniquity in AoEs.
Ashes of Creation should always be beauty, immersion, and fantasy first and foremost. There's no reason to think that gameplay must suffer to accommodate those things. Big bad red circle is horribly boring and overdone, we're here to push boundaries and make something unique, let's do that.
In my opinion, Ashes should always go for the latter. It is clear that Ashes is building the MMORPG that we've always wanted. As Intrepid and us enjoyers often state, we're trying to follow the rules that the acronym set forth. Roleplaying game is the concept that I'm far more concerned with here.
"Realistically" Magic doesn't work in perfect circles, physical attacks don't work in perfect circles. Things are shaped to the caster's creativity, the shape of the weapon, the intention behind the maneuver. This means that the impact of AoEs should be fluid, have unique shapes, and challenge the player to use their skill in unconventional matters rather than simply reacting really fast to big bad red circle.
Does this sacrifice ease of development and visual clarity for the sake of cosmetic satisfaction and immersion? Absolutely, and I have no regrets. If people have conflicts with the concept of uniquely shaped AoEs in association with skill, clarity and creativity... Look no further than league of legends. Champs like Aatrox and Diana have incredibly unique interacts with the shape of their attacks. Although there is always reason to complain with Riot's capability to handle a game... I think they have created some absolutely gorgeous game interactions with some of the uniquity in AoEs.
Ashes of Creation should always be beauty, immersion, and fantasy first and foremost. There's no reason to think that gameplay must suffer to accommodate those things. Big bad red circle is horribly boring and overdone, we're here to push boundaries and make something unique, let's do that.
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
I believe AoEs need to be properly balanced so they don't become the only useful way (and sometime an OP way) of dealing damage in most situations. For that to happen I believe they need to meet a few requirements:
. Have significantly less dps than single-target abilities. That way AoEs will trump single target only in large scale as they should
. Player collision in combat must be implemented properly to limit the amount of player an AoE can affect and not make it super OP in large scale
. Archetypes that specialize in AoEs can't have great survivability and mobility, they need to rely on the healer and tanks to keep them alive while they dish out huge amounts of damage in a large scale battle.
I also believe AoE zone of effect should be displayed trough skill vfx, and not generic circles on the ground that make the game ugly.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I would say either big abilities that dish a lot of damage, or hard ccs. I would hope though that this telegraphing happens trough skill VFX and character animation, rather than a red circle or similar like most modern mmos do it. Maybe the skill starts from the players position and travels forward, or the player goes trough a casting animation to make it clear the ability is coming.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I think the distinction should be there but subtle. Maybe the skill has a small color difference.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, its pretty much the same.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I think Valve does a great job with VFX in general. I would recommend dota 2 and most recently deadlock as good VFX examples
I believe AoEs need to be properly balanced so they don't become the only useful way (and sometime an OP way) of dealing damage in most situations. For that to happen I believe they need to meet a few requirements:
. Have significantly less dps than single-target abilities. That way AoEs will trump single target only in large scale as they should
. Player collision in combat must be implemented properly to limit the amount of player an AoE can affect and not make it super OP in large scale
. Archetypes that specialize in AoEs can't have great survivability and mobility, they need to rely on the healer and tanks to keep them alive while they dish out huge amounts of damage in a large scale battle.
I also believe AoE zone of effect should be displayed trough skill vfx, and not generic circles on the ground that make the game ugly.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I would say either big abilities that dish a lot of damage, or hard ccs. I would hope though that this telegraphing happens trough skill VFX and character animation, rather than a red circle or similar like most modern mmos do it. Maybe the skill starts from the players position and travels forward, or the player goes trough a casting animation to make it clear the ability is coming.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I think the distinction should be there but subtle. Maybe the skill has a small color difference.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, its pretty much the same.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I think Valve does a great job with VFX in general. I would recommend dota 2 and most recently deadlock as good VFX examples
Imnotkio
1
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
A wide range of visual options for how aoes are displayed, from "just a circle on the ground" to "full animation with all vfx, bloom and all that shit included".
I would also love if we could control their opacity, because getting flashbanged by 10 aoes landing on my character, and not being able to see shit, feels kinda bad.
Do not care about pve/pvp differences, because options should be universal.
Definitely haven't played a game where those options are present. Would love if Ashes was my first one
I would also love if we could control their opacity, because getting flashbanged by 10 aoes landing on my character, and not being able to see shit, feels kinda bad.
Do not care about pve/pvp differences, because options should be universal.
Definitely haven't played a game where those options are present. Would love if Ashes was my first one
Ludullu
2
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
Hutchy1989 wrote: »Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.
meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources
juvian
3
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
Active Skills are more powerful than Augments.
Which is why the term Primary Archetype is used. Primarily a Cleric.
A Cleric/Rogue cannot replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue in an 8-person Group.
Even if a Shadow Disciple could get full Stealth from an Augment, it wouldn't last as long as the Active Skill.
Which is why the term Primary Archetype is used. Primarily a Cleric.
A Cleric/Rogue cannot replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue in an 8-person Group.
Even if a Shadow Disciple could get full Stealth from an Augment, it wouldn't last as long as the Active Skill.
Dygz
2
Re: List of reasons to allow Shadow computers
JeanPhilippeGunghar wrote: »1st: In Canada no way I can get a rig for 1000 and under. Our dollar is weak (0,76 for 2 single US one)
2nd: Best Buy is shit. They are expansive for nothing. I want a real gaming rig.
Absolute b*llsh*t! You can get something used or refurbished that would run AoC for under 500 canadian np! I am also a little confused with your statements? You say you are too poor to get a computer to play ashes but on the other hand you only want a "REAL GAMING RIG"!
WOW why do people assume over asking questions? First off. Do you live in Canada? I have been to the USA recently. It's shocking the price difference. TV I bought in Canada was when you include taxes was 40% cheaper in the states. Go look up right now on Canadian sites AM4 gaming parts. Not standard pc parts but gaming quality parts. AMD Ryzen 7 5800X is my CPU and norms for about $300 with tax. Used about 180. When I bought my 4070 I paid new just over 1k. My 2060 card I sold used for $350 bucks. That was about 6 or 7 months ago
RIght now, on Newegg.CA you can get a 5700X3D and 32gb ram for $315, a fan for $30, a suitable motherboard for $100, a reputable power supply for $75, SSD for $45, and a case for $60.
The above is $620, and all you need to do is add a second hand GPU - which you can get something servicable for $250 - 300.
While it isn't top of the line, it also isn't entry level (despite everything being at least a generation old at this point). It will run Ashes when it releases (assuming it's still on UE5) at reasonable settings at 1440p.
So, you are right that it probably isn't possible to get something viable for under $500, but it is possible to get something for around $850-900, and the above is all without actually shopping around (one website).
The problems start coming - imo - when someone that can't get that starts also demanding high settings.
Noaani
1
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
@AirborneBerserker
You asked me for a list of MMORPG's I was talking about in relation to not seeing masses of solo players.
I provided you with that list.
Please explain to me either where I am not seeing those solo players, or where you were very incorrect with your assertion that 50%+ of MMORPG players play solo.
The thing with making up obvious lies like this is that even if you fool some of us posters (you didn't), MMORPG developers and producers have actual hard data. They know how many people are grouping up, how many are running a given type of content, how many are in guilds etc. In some cases, they publish that data for their players to look over - this data that some developers have published in the past is how I know that you basically added an extra 0 to your claim of solo player percentage.
You asked me for a list of MMORPG's I was talking about in relation to not seeing masses of solo players.
I provided you with that list.
Please explain to me either where I am not seeing those solo players, or where you were very incorrect with your assertion that 50%+ of MMORPG players play solo.
The thing with making up obvious lies like this is that even if you fool some of us posters (you didn't), MMORPG developers and producers have actual hard data. They know how many people are grouping up, how many are running a given type of content, how many are in guilds etc. In some cases, they publish that data for their players to look over - this data that some developers have published in the past is how I know that you basically added an extra 0 to your claim of solo player percentage.
Noaani
2