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Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
I see two types of AOE abilities: "one time" and "persistent". One time AOE abilities are cast, they deal some damage and that is it. Persistent ones create a zone where damage is dealt each tick. I think that the one time aoe skills are completely fine for PVP as they serve the important role of discouraging enemies from clumping up and turtling up with aoe healing.
Persistent AOE on the other hand can be very dangerous in PVP as it doesn't just deal damage, it also serves as area denial. I played a few games (4Story was the worst offender) where persistent AOE was accessible to way too many meta classes so players could create an absolutely insane killing ground where nobody could go. Due to this fights devolved into WW1 style tug of war which is just boring when it happens every single time.
In Crowfall AOE abilities were limited in their maximum number of targets so they wouldn't be too powerful against large groups of players. The problem was that the optimal strategy against there skills was to clump up even more to spread the damage out through the entire raid instead of the abilities consistently hitting their intended amount of targets
And of course there is the problem with visual clarity as in large scale battles there are going to be tons of people casting tons of spells at the same time and coordinated groups are gonna choose a single place to nuke and obliterate everybody standing there. And you really don't want that to cause a flashbang.
Persistent AOE on the other hand can be very dangerous in PVP as it doesn't just deal damage, it also serves as area denial. I played a few games (4Story was the worst offender) where persistent AOE was accessible to way too many meta classes so players could create an absolutely insane killing ground where nobody could go. Due to this fights devolved into WW1 style tug of war which is just boring when it happens every single time.
In Crowfall AOE abilities were limited in their maximum number of targets so they wouldn't be too powerful against large groups of players. The problem was that the optimal strategy against there skills was to clump up even more to spread the damage out through the entire raid instead of the abilities consistently hitting their intended amount of targets
And of course there is the problem with visual clarity as in large scale battles there are going to be tons of people casting tons of spells at the same time and coordinated groups are gonna choose a single place to nuke and obliterate everybody standing there. And you really don't want that to cause a flashbang.
Idefix55
2
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
I know... For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
But regarding the boss lacking mechanics that require raid-coordination rather than single-player-skill only, I really think there is a simple solution, so please hear me out.
This will lead to an encounter where an uncoordinated raid will simply be grilled by him.
The players have to coordinate where the largest group of players is bulking together and which players that are. And they might even have to change that setup infight, wenn some of them die or already used their necessary cooldowns.
But regarding the boss lacking mechanics that require raid-coordination rather than single-player-skill only, I really think there is a simple solution, so please hear me out.
- Firebreath should (as it already does, if I understood correctly) target the direction where it will hit most characters
- Change Firebreath that it is only dodgeable by extraordinary fast/mobile characters or someone using big cooldowns (dash-skills, sprint-potions, etc.)
- Change Firebreath that it is only survivable by extraordinary tanky characters or someone using big cooldowns (tank-skills, fireprotection-potions, etc.)
This will lead to an encounter where an uncoordinated raid will simply be grilled by him.
The players have to coordinate where the largest group of players is bulking together and which players that are. And they might even have to change that setup infight, wenn some of them die or already used their necessary cooldowns.
Yulivee
1
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
I noticed that it was no stat dempening(lower health and mana) upon deaths druing raid. Does this mechanic still exist in-game? Or it doesn't apply when priest rez you?
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
Another observation in regards to the loot: This is a leveling dragon that's not dropping any endgame gear. It doesn't drop enough loot to make it a good option for players who are just leveling. I think this kind of loot is fine for absolute endgame worldbosses who drop the best of loot, but this level of items is not okay for leveling where everyone will just try to blow through fast.
The fact that loot is so scarce might be the reason why people don't do the dragon. At the very least it should drop a big chunk of experience and some materials for people to craft a single item.
The fact that loot is so scarce might be the reason why people don't do the dragon. At the very least it should drop a big chunk of experience and some materials for people to craft a single item.
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
Firebrand and general boss feeedback:
AoC is supposed to have active block, dodge and stamina systems. Please use them more in boss fights.
Tail swipes should knock you back if you don't dodge them
Any attacks which produce a shock wave should require a dodge or maybe a jump to avoid getting knock down.
I like that the boss moves on the arena, but I feel it could be even more aggressive, flank players, picking new targets in the player group to force the group to move around, redirect aggro. Especially versus ranged players, as those guys seem to had it "easy".
Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom "dungeon" felt a bit short and basic. It could use more enemies and enemy types. Maybe a swarm like enemy type, numerous, quick, coming in waves, with low HP / damage output but able to surround the players, prevent them from moving away, whilst few elite enemies - the real threat - approach slower in that swarm.
AoC is supposed to have active block, dodge and stamina systems. Please use them more in boss fights.
Tail swipes should knock you back if you don't dodge them
Any attacks which produce a shock wave should require a dodge or maybe a jump to avoid getting knock down.
I like that the boss moves on the arena, but I feel it could be even more aggressive, flank players, picking new targets in the player group to force the group to move around, redirect aggro. Especially versus ranged players, as those guys seem to had it "easy".
Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom "dungeon" felt a bit short and basic. It could use more enemies and enemy types. Maybe a swarm like enemy type, numerous, quick, coming in waves, with low HP / damage output but able to surround the players, prevent them from moving away, whilst few elite enemies - the real threat - approach slower in that swarm.
Re: Node alliances should be thought about like factions
That's why you need to think of node alliances as factions. In faction based games your harmful actions against people in your faction are limited. Node war is a harmful action, and you can't do it to allies. But...you can still slap people around in your faction if they are jerks. It's nice.
And like with factions, you don't have total control over who is in your alliance, since node membership looks like it will be first-come first-serve. AKA you joined Horde and your current node is the Barrens
The classic guild affiliation is much more PvP related
And like with factions, you don't have total control over who is in your alliance, since node membership looks like it will be first-come first-serve. AKA you joined Horde and your current node is the Barrens
The classic guild affiliation is much more PvP related
Spif
1
Re: Node alliances should be thought about like factions
And this is the allegiances I talked about in the other node thread. Steven expects those guildies to fight each other due to their node wars, but right now I see no reason for them to do this really, because people would be more devoted to their guild than their node. So, imo, the chances are that anyone who's got cut off and became "an enemy" would simply change their node citizenship to the one that's in the same vassal system as their guild.I am happy that node affiliation is on top
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Affiliations
That will make large guilds life harder when node structures change and some nodes shift into enemy node chains.
Ludullu
1
Re: Node alliances should be thought about like factions
I am happy that node affiliation is on top
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Affiliations
That will make large guilds life harder when node structures change and some nodes shift into enemy node chains.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Affiliations
That will make large guilds life harder when node structures change and some nodes shift into enemy node chains.
Otr
1
Re: Node alliances should be thought about like factions
I'll just leave a counter point of "I'd prefer if the game didn't limit our choices of actions" here.
The 4th point sounds reaaal close to this, so I feel like that's already in
But if you're ok with changing the current design to a choice-based thing - I'm all for that.
The 4th point sounds reaaal close to this, so I feel like that's already in
But if you're ok with changing the current design to a choice-based thing - I'm all for that.
Ludullu
1
Re: 📝 Dev Discussion #67 - AoE Form and Function 💣
TL;DR: Just scroll down to the examples section, because the most important stuff is illustrated down there.
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
The only two universal rules I would apply, are that the VFX should match the hitbox and duration of AoEs as closely as possible, and that the intensity of VFX should match their power level/importance:
* VFX should have an appropriate wind-up, to go with the character animation or cast time.
* Instantaneous AoEs should have a snappy impact point, at the same time as the actual hitbox hit, and then a quick dispersal depending on how impactful the ability was meant to be.
-- Spam-able AoEs should get off the screen ASAP, because they have low power/relevance for the player.
-- Long, powerful cooldowns can linger for a second, just to lend weight/satisfaction and (for PvP) to help identify "wtf just one-shot me?"
* Persistent AoEs should also have a slightly snappy impact that matches the first tick of the effect.
* Again, the persistent visuals should match the power of the ability, with brighter/more opaque VFX reserved for long-cooldown abilities.
* CRITICAL: If the AoE is something you might want to move into/out of, then it needs a very clear border for the duration of it's effect. (This is less important for instant AoEs, but would still be nice if it doesn't interfere with other priorities.)
* And finally, the persistent visuals should start to dissipate before the effect ends, such that it is fully/mostly off the screen as soon as the last tick hits.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Two interpretations of "telegraph" in that question...
As explained in the previous section, everything should have clear visuals and AoE borders when they are actually hitting you.
But if we're talking about a warning telegraph before the hit, then I think this should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Most abilities should have some kind of tell, showing where an AoE is about to land and allowing for counter-play. Like a meteor falling from the sky, or cracks forming in the ground during the cast/wind-up animation, or a trap that was visibly placed a few seconds ago. And anything without a built-in telegraph, should probably be given a standard colored-shape ground-telegraph (like for a hail of arrows that is about to land).
Although some AoEs could be exempt from this, if they are meant to be particularly sneaky/fast (maybe like a summoner/rogue using a zero-damage snare/root to set up for their other abilities), or if they just aren't very important and rarely need to be dodged (spam-able low-damage AoEs).
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
This is probably where there will be a lot of different answers, and "it depends" answers. And a lot of that should be left up to the player, via optional settings that can simplify or hide different categories of VFX. For me though, I would prefer:
Obviously I should see my own AoEs with full VFX.
Similar to the last question, anything that I might want to dodge (or block) should be visible to me. Instants can have full VFX (because they don't block vision for very long, and the weaker ones should already have negligible visual impact), as well as the more powerful lingering effects (which I want to be highly visible, so I can get out of them).
HOWEVER, I expect that PvP will be hectic and crowded, and I don't want two dozen AoEs crowding up the screen constantly. So I think most lingering AoEs should be deemed "irrelevant", and their VFX should be simplified to a thin border and nothing else (GW2 example in the final question). That way, they are still somewhat visible, but do not crowd the screen.
(To enable this, the devs would have to make some tough decisions about how to categorize the "powerful" and "irrelevant" AoEs. Sorry. )
By default, ally AoEs can follow the same paradigm, with the only difference being that the simplified AoEs should have a different color border. That being said, I'm a little bit less concerned about allied VFX, so I might want to switch to even more simplified (or invisible) VFX in very large battles.
In any case, I think there should be a decent amount of options available for people to choose from in different cases, for all these permutations (full, simplified, invisible; ally or enemy; instant or lingering; powerful or irrelevant).
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
The options should be the same in PvE, but I would likely choose more full VFX settings for my allies, since there won't be a ton of enemy AoEs competing for visual real-estate.
...That is, assuming it is easy enough to switch VFX settings between PvE and PvP contexts. If it's possible, I would like a system that automatically switches between "normal" settings and "simplified" settings (both of which I have to set up) whenever a certain threshold of enemy combatants is in the area or in-combat with me. That way, I would have full VFX most of the time in PvE and small-scale PvP, but larger PvP battles (like unexpected contests over open-world raids) automatically trigger the simplified settings.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
[To be added at a later time.]
Okay, here's a screenshot I stole from Reddit of a huge PvE fight in GW2. You can see the boss AoEs with their fire effect in them, but most of the player AoEs are rendered simply as a colored circle (different colors for different elemental types). Aside from that, I don't think GW2 has very good visual clarity though, so that's just an example to show what I'm talking about for toning down all the excess VFX in a big battle. Enemy AoEs and mechanics are more important than ally AoEs, so those VFX should be first in-line to be simplified.
And these are the options that FFXIV provides to tone down it's VFX. Because FFXIV has very beautiful, and bright, and LONG duration VFX for most abilities, it's very common to turn off the VFX for your party members so you don't see 8 explosions on top of the boss every 2 seconds. I don't think AoC will have VFX that are nearly that obnoxious, but I do think these options are perfect for tailoring the VFX to the player's preferences.
Lastly, here's an article from League of Legends about it's visual design and visual clarity. You can scroll half-way down to the VFX section, and it talks about everything I care about with examples and everything. Honestly I could have probably just posted that and saved a lot of typing. https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/clarity-in-league/
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
The only two universal rules I would apply, are that the VFX should match the hitbox and duration of AoEs as closely as possible, and that the intensity of VFX should match their power level/importance:
* VFX should have an appropriate wind-up, to go with the character animation or cast time.
* Instantaneous AoEs should have a snappy impact point, at the same time as the actual hitbox hit, and then a quick dispersal depending on how impactful the ability was meant to be.
-- Spam-able AoEs should get off the screen ASAP, because they have low power/relevance for the player.
-- Long, powerful cooldowns can linger for a second, just to lend weight/satisfaction and (for PvP) to help identify "wtf just one-shot me?"
* Persistent AoEs should also have a slightly snappy impact that matches the first tick of the effect.
* Again, the persistent visuals should match the power of the ability, with brighter/more opaque VFX reserved for long-cooldown abilities.
* CRITICAL: If the AoE is something you might want to move into/out of, then it needs a very clear border for the duration of it's effect. (This is less important for instant AoEs, but would still be nice if it doesn't interfere with other priorities.)
* And finally, the persistent visuals should start to dissipate before the effect ends, such that it is fully/mostly off the screen as soon as the last tick hits.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Two interpretations of "telegraph" in that question...
As explained in the previous section, everything should have clear visuals and AoE borders when they are actually hitting you.
But if we're talking about a warning telegraph before the hit, then I think this should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Most abilities should have some kind of tell, showing where an AoE is about to land and allowing for counter-play. Like a meteor falling from the sky, or cracks forming in the ground during the cast/wind-up animation, or a trap that was visibly placed a few seconds ago. And anything without a built-in telegraph, should probably be given a standard colored-shape ground-telegraph (like for a hail of arrows that is about to land).
Although some AoEs could be exempt from this, if they are meant to be particularly sneaky/fast (maybe like a summoner/rogue using a zero-damage snare/root to set up for their other abilities), or if they just aren't very important and rarely need to be dodged (spam-able low-damage AoEs).
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
This is probably where there will be a lot of different answers, and "it depends" answers. And a lot of that should be left up to the player, via optional settings that can simplify or hide different categories of VFX. For me though, I would prefer:
Obviously I should see my own AoEs with full VFX.
Similar to the last question, anything that I might want to dodge (or block) should be visible to me. Instants can have full VFX (because they don't block vision for very long, and the weaker ones should already have negligible visual impact), as well as the more powerful lingering effects (which I want to be highly visible, so I can get out of them).
HOWEVER, I expect that PvP will be hectic and crowded, and I don't want two dozen AoEs crowding up the screen constantly. So I think most lingering AoEs should be deemed "irrelevant", and their VFX should be simplified to a thin border and nothing else (GW2 example in the final question). That way, they are still somewhat visible, but do not crowd the screen.
(To enable this, the devs would have to make some tough decisions about how to categorize the "powerful" and "irrelevant" AoEs. Sorry. )
By default, ally AoEs can follow the same paradigm, with the only difference being that the simplified AoEs should have a different color border. That being said, I'm a little bit less concerned about allied VFX, so I might want to switch to even more simplified (or invisible) VFX in very large battles.
In any case, I think there should be a decent amount of options available for people to choose from in different cases, for all these permutations (full, simplified, invisible; ally or enemy; instant or lingering; powerful or irrelevant).
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
The options should be the same in PvE, but I would likely choose more full VFX settings for my allies, since there won't be a ton of enemy AoEs competing for visual real-estate.
...That is, assuming it is easy enough to switch VFX settings between PvE and PvP contexts. If it's possible, I would like a system that automatically switches between "normal" settings and "simplified" settings (both of which I have to set up) whenever a certain threshold of enemy combatants is in the area or in-combat with me. That way, I would have full VFX most of the time in PvE and small-scale PvP, but larger PvP battles (like unexpected contests over open-world raids) automatically trigger the simplified settings.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
[To be added at a later time.]
Okay, here's a screenshot I stole from Reddit of a huge PvE fight in GW2. You can see the boss AoEs with their fire effect in them, but most of the player AoEs are rendered simply as a colored circle (different colors for different elemental types). Aside from that, I don't think GW2 has very good visual clarity though, so that's just an example to show what I'm talking about for toning down all the excess VFX in a big battle. Enemy AoEs and mechanics are more important than ally AoEs, so those VFX should be first in-line to be simplified.
And these are the options that FFXIV provides to tone down it's VFX. Because FFXIV has very beautiful, and bright, and LONG duration VFX for most abilities, it's very common to turn off the VFX for your party members so you don't see 8 explosions on top of the boss every 2 seconds. I don't think AoC will have VFX that are nearly that obnoxious, but I do think these options are perfect for tailoring the VFX to the player's preferences.
Lastly, here's an article from League of Legends about it's visual design and visual clarity. You can scroll half-way down to the VFX section, and it talks about everything I care about with examples and everything. Honestly I could have probably just posted that and saved a lot of typing. https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/clarity-in-league/
Leonerdo
1