Best Of
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
I did not read the original post fully, but I have thought about playing solo and here was my conclusion:
I would have to accept being a humble peon, and not the saviour of the world, as the game has no main quest to lead me solo through to illogical greatness.
Therefore I asked myself how can I still have fun while being in the bottom half (or less if joining late) of gear and progression? Well that depends on my play style, self-esteem and my psychological needs from gaming.
Luckily for me I would actually enjoy trying to find my place in the world, the massive world, with up to 10,000 live players and 50,000 potential members on my realm.
I think guilds with even 100 players will have the same humbling experience, as their large member count only fills 1% of the server and they probably only muster around 1% of the nodes at a time.
Find you place, or have fun trying.
I would have to accept being a humble peon, and not the saviour of the world, as the game has no main quest to lead me solo through to illogical greatness.
Therefore I asked myself how can I still have fun while being in the bottom half (or less if joining late) of gear and progression? Well that depends on my play style, self-esteem and my psychological needs from gaming.
Luckily for me I would actually enjoy trying to find my place in the world, the massive world, with up to 10,000 live players and 50,000 potential members on my realm.
I think guilds with even 100 players will have the same humbling experience, as their large member count only fills 1% of the server and they probably only muster around 1% of the nodes at a time.
Find you place, or have fun trying.
Uboon
6
Re: Boneworking
Yes, I couldn't resist hehe. We can't have all goody two shoes items in this game!!
and who could resist wearing the skulls of your enemies as trophy armor?
Kyskei
2
Re: When I first read the Ashes of Creation wiki...
I remember how much I loved the depth of the artisan system, how important it is to the world and to the power of players. The idea of becoming the best crafter in a specialised area, like heavy armour for example, and being known for that on your server sounds awesome. The artisan system is something that keeps me interested to this day
Havel
1
When I first read the Ashes of Creation wiki...
I have been a fan of classic RTS games (think Red Alert & Age of Empires) and MMORPGs since the early days.
When I first read the Ashes of Creation wiki...
I discovered a game design that made a world for us 8k to 10k concurrent players to be those little AI villages and armies in the RTS games I loved. Building towns, chopping down trees, running caravans, upgrading to Metropoli and fighting with our neighbours. And all within a huge MMORPG realm with features that finally reflected what players want instead of what corporations need. As a software engineer I have been dream-designing my ideal MMO for years, and was amazed at how much thought and care had gone in to the design of Ashes. From the livestreams I can see that the dev and art teams are actually bringing this world to life, and the expanding details in the wiki keep me fascinated by the lofty aspirations of the crew at Intrepid.
What did you think when you first read the Ashes of Creation wiki?
When I first read the Ashes of Creation wiki...
I discovered a game design that made a world for us 8k to 10k concurrent players to be those little AI villages and armies in the RTS games I loved. Building towns, chopping down trees, running caravans, upgrading to Metropoli and fighting with our neighbours. And all within a huge MMORPG realm with features that finally reflected what players want instead of what corporations need. As a software engineer I have been dream-designing my ideal MMO for years, and was amazed at how much thought and care had gone in to the design of Ashes. From the livestreams I can see that the dev and art teams are actually bringing this world to life, and the expanding details in the wiki keep me fascinated by the lofty aspirations of the crew at Intrepid.
What did you think when you first read the Ashes of Creation wiki?
Uboon
1
Re: Loot System Changes
A lot of these single players seem to have those exact issues. Just as Depraved, I've never scammed my group/guild/alliance-mates and I don't even remember if I've ever been scammed myself.You have issues if you think your entire group are ninja looters gonna cause blood shed fighting over an item after it drops
You get back what you put in. Single players seem to mistrust every damn person they meet and want the rewards to be person just for them, so of course everyone around them will treat them with the same mistrust.
I've trusted every player I've partied up with, because otherwise why the hell would I even party up with them And that lead to my great experience with parties and guilds (both as a leader and as a common member).
Ludullu
3
Vaelune BARD fan art
Last of the archetypes, the Vaelune bard!
Shakira hips don't like (laelolaelolalae)!!
(Chinese characters mean "bard/poet")
ARCHETYPE SERIES --> Vek rogue │Py'rai ranger │ Dunir tank │ Kaelar cleric │ Nikua summoner│Empyrean mage │Ren'kai fighter │ Vaelune bard
Shakira hips don't like (laelolaelolalae)!!
(Chinese characters mean "bard/poet")
ARCHETYPE SERIES --> Vek rogue │Py'rai ranger │ Dunir tank │ Kaelar cleric │ Nikua summoner│Empyrean mage │Ren'kai fighter │ Vaelune bard
WuqingYe
1
Re: Vassal resentment
Followup, I realized that a non-war and non-diplomatic system will be nessary for the vassalization of a tier 1 or 2 node because they lack mayors they can not agree to diplomatic vassalization. Likewise a tier 2 nodes ability to gain it's first vassal can't be done by either method due to the lack of a mayor to select a target. This is why the current design uses an automated vassalization based on node XP. I think a better solution can be reached using an embyronic Caravan system to make a delivery to the node and thus claim it. This will provide player agency to the process while preserving as much of what I think Intrepids original intent was.
At tier 1 a node gains a chest or NPC which has the capacity to hold special objects called 'Expedition Crates', it holds nothing else but these and has a capacity of 100 and starts empty. At tier 2 (which can be achived with XP alone) a node which is full of XP will have overflow XP generate crates in their stockpile at some rate aimed at being likely to generate about a crate every 5 to 10 minutes under expected XP production rates of a tier 2 node, these crates are labeled with their node of origin but are otherwise identical and functionless, this will eventually fill the stockpile with 100 domestically created crates. Any player can remove a domestically produced crate from the stockpile, possibly subject to a fee or auction price, but can not drop or delete it and can carry only 1 at a time, probably with reduced movement speed unless a mount is used. The crate might be visible to other players but not it's origin node and it will decay away in a few hours when outside a stockpile and decays instantly if they drop on death, this might leave some loot. A person carrying a crate can deposit it into any stockpile, if the stockpile is full then the oldest non-matching-origin crate is destroyed to accomadate it, if they deposit into a forign stockpile they get a modest monetary reward. If a crate of forign origin is in a stockpile then XP is first used to consume it at a comperable rate before new crates are generated, note that Tier 1 nodes can consume crates but not generate them and forign crates can not be removed meaning only XP based consumption can remove them, again oldest forign crate is consumed first. If a Tier 1 or 2 stockpile is ever filled with >80 crates of a single forign node origin then the node is vassalized to that forign node. This includes nodes that are already vassals so they can be stolen away from the current patron, but the patron has an advantage, a vassal node consumes non-patron crates first before consuming patron crates so the usurper must overcome the consumption rate AND push out the patron. Likewise if a vassal node reaches 80 domestic crates they become independent again. Tier 3 through 6 nodes retain their ability to produce and consume crates Mayors can set tasks to deliver crates to specific destinations such as existing vassals to help maintain them, or to aquire new vassals, or to block someone else from gaining a vassal and such deliveries could generate extra rewards subsidized by the town coffers at the mayors discression. In this way a node of any tier can aquire tier 1 and 2 vassals but might face limits on the number of direct vassals they can have. if under such a cap then their crates are deleted upon entering into any node stockpile that is not already a vassal, but all rewards are still generated. It is intended hat the whole system remains in place at higher tiers as a kind of delivery mini-game for players to do for the cash rewards as an individualized alternative to caravans probably with higher rewards for greater distance of delivery and for the crates originating from higher tier nodes, this would likely come with an adjustment to the rate of crate creation for larger nodes and more systems to 'reserve' crates for yourself rathe they relying on first come. This keeps players familiarized with the system and engaged in a low intensity strugle for control of vassals for which outright wars would be unreasonable. Lastly it fits the theme and astetics of tier 1 and 2 nodes with a 'camps' and 'expeditions', logically supplies should be delivered to such things to maintain them.
As you can see the system is kind of delivery pushing king-of-the-hill in which a Tier 2 nodes pushes crates onto other nodes and can act without centralized leadership as players just try to get the monetary rewards for delivery. To win this pushing contest a node will need to sustain a higher rate of XP generation as well as do the leg work to deliver the crates. No one is flaged for pvp but it could occour either oportunistically or as an organized defense to prevent vassalization. Other interesting counterplay also exists when a third node of tier 3 or higher is inloved, they could try to deplete the attacking sides crate supply by taking them home to their node to deposit, as hey are already tier 3 this presents no risk to them. Note while a tier 2 node vassalizing a tier 1 node is a one sided push because the tier 1 node produces no crates it is possible for two tier 2 nodes to fight each other both generating and consuming each others crates untill one wins. Two different nodes might battle over the vassalization of a third node trying to push more crates to it. Point is that it is all player driven but because all crate creation is a byproduct of XP it's inherently self-throttling, only a fraction of players in a node can be doing deliveries because someone needs to be generating XP which crate deliveries do not, thus normal PvE play dominates while crates act as a soft intro to caravans and node-2-node commerce for that segment of econ focused players and thouse guilds focused on node advancement and empire building letting them flex their organizational muscle.
Lastly you have the possibility that the player who deposited the most crates to a successful vassalization might get a prize, maybe a large monetary prize, rights or privlages in their home node, maybe even becoming the first mayor if the vassalization is what took their node to tier 3.
At tier 1 a node gains a chest or NPC which has the capacity to hold special objects called 'Expedition Crates', it holds nothing else but these and has a capacity of 100 and starts empty. At tier 2 (which can be achived with XP alone) a node which is full of XP will have overflow XP generate crates in their stockpile at some rate aimed at being likely to generate about a crate every 5 to 10 minutes under expected XP production rates of a tier 2 node, these crates are labeled with their node of origin but are otherwise identical and functionless, this will eventually fill the stockpile with 100 domestically created crates. Any player can remove a domestically produced crate from the stockpile, possibly subject to a fee or auction price, but can not drop or delete it and can carry only 1 at a time, probably with reduced movement speed unless a mount is used. The crate might be visible to other players but not it's origin node and it will decay away in a few hours when outside a stockpile and decays instantly if they drop on death, this might leave some loot. A person carrying a crate can deposit it into any stockpile, if the stockpile is full then the oldest non-matching-origin crate is destroyed to accomadate it, if they deposit into a forign stockpile they get a modest monetary reward. If a crate of forign origin is in a stockpile then XP is first used to consume it at a comperable rate before new crates are generated, note that Tier 1 nodes can consume crates but not generate them and forign crates can not be removed meaning only XP based consumption can remove them, again oldest forign crate is consumed first. If a Tier 1 or 2 stockpile is ever filled with >80 crates of a single forign node origin then the node is vassalized to that forign node. This includes nodes that are already vassals so they can be stolen away from the current patron, but the patron has an advantage, a vassal node consumes non-patron crates first before consuming patron crates so the usurper must overcome the consumption rate AND push out the patron. Likewise if a vassal node reaches 80 domestic crates they become independent again. Tier 3 through 6 nodes retain their ability to produce and consume crates Mayors can set tasks to deliver crates to specific destinations such as existing vassals to help maintain them, or to aquire new vassals, or to block someone else from gaining a vassal and such deliveries could generate extra rewards subsidized by the town coffers at the mayors discression. In this way a node of any tier can aquire tier 1 and 2 vassals but might face limits on the number of direct vassals they can have. if under such a cap then their crates are deleted upon entering into any node stockpile that is not already a vassal, but all rewards are still generated. It is intended hat the whole system remains in place at higher tiers as a kind of delivery mini-game for players to do for the cash rewards as an individualized alternative to caravans probably with higher rewards for greater distance of delivery and for the crates originating from higher tier nodes, this would likely come with an adjustment to the rate of crate creation for larger nodes and more systems to 'reserve' crates for yourself rathe they relying on first come. This keeps players familiarized with the system and engaged in a low intensity strugle for control of vassals for which outright wars would be unreasonable. Lastly it fits the theme and astetics of tier 1 and 2 nodes with a 'camps' and 'expeditions', logically supplies should be delivered to such things to maintain them.
As you can see the system is kind of delivery pushing king-of-the-hill in which a Tier 2 nodes pushes crates onto other nodes and can act without centralized leadership as players just try to get the monetary rewards for delivery. To win this pushing contest a node will need to sustain a higher rate of XP generation as well as do the leg work to deliver the crates. No one is flaged for pvp but it could occour either oportunistically or as an organized defense to prevent vassalization. Other interesting counterplay also exists when a third node of tier 3 or higher is inloved, they could try to deplete the attacking sides crate supply by taking them home to their node to deposit, as hey are already tier 3 this presents no risk to them. Note while a tier 2 node vassalizing a tier 1 node is a one sided push because the tier 1 node produces no crates it is possible for two tier 2 nodes to fight each other both generating and consuming each others crates untill one wins. Two different nodes might battle over the vassalization of a third node trying to push more crates to it. Point is that it is all player driven but because all crate creation is a byproduct of XP it's inherently self-throttling, only a fraction of players in a node can be doing deliveries because someone needs to be generating XP which crate deliveries do not, thus normal PvE play dominates while crates act as a soft intro to caravans and node-2-node commerce for that segment of econ focused players and thouse guilds focused on node advancement and empire building letting them flex their organizational muscle.
Lastly you have the possibility that the player who deposited the most crates to a successful vassalization might get a prize, maybe a large monetary prize, rights or privlages in their home node, maybe even becoming the first mayor if the vassalization is what took their node to tier 3.
Lodrig
2
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content.
Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials.
Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot.
Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700
lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it.
We’re talking about the groups that did earn it.
So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout.
What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself.
Caeryl
1
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content.
Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials.
Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot.
Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700
lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong.no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it.
We’re talking about the groups that did earn it.
So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout.
What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself.
no it shouldn't. just join a guild that doesn't do gm/officer abuse. the game will give you different loot options. pick one you like and play with people who like the same one.
not everybody should get rewarded, or even rewarded equally anyways. not everybody contributes equally. its nice to get things, but if not, you should keep trying.
what happens to those people who managed to pvp and kill everybody trying to kill your pve raiders and take the boss? they never touch the boss or are in the same group as the people killing it but their contribution is significant. how do you reward them?
giving the loot to the guild bank and distributing it based on different parameters and merit isn't a bad system.
The game should absolutely handle the loot dispersal. Anything beyond the initial distribution can be handled as the guild wants and the guild members will agree to.
Crowd funding (we’re asking everyone chip in) vs communism (we’re setting lootmaster and you get no input to how we hand it out)
Caeryl
1