Best Of
Re: Quantity of Abilities
DerToastinator wrote: »Greetings,
How many abilities do you want/need?
Let me elaborate:
In AoC we have the weapon attack, a block and a dodge roll baked into every character. This means 3 buttons are already allocated to specific tasks during combat.
This leaves us with less buttons on the keyboard that in WoW for example to key-bind abilities.
(Given that you are not a tank, you might unbind block to free up a space.)
We also have a sprint option that most likely takes up ctrl or shift. Cutting down 1/3rd of the usual hot-binds (example shift + 4)
The most comfortable to reach keys are… E, Q, R, F, C, V, X, Y, 1 to 5 (maby 6). Honorable mention to T, G and B, but B is for Bags change my mind
We have 13 confortable to reach keys and 3 are taken, leaving us with 10. Multiplied by 2 for the shift or ctrl keys makes 20 comfortably usable slots.
Ashes have stated that macros are not intended to be necessary to have a coherent rotation.
The weapon attack is supposed to be your filler ability, and it has benefits to finish a combo to get effects (as shown in the ranger update)
All this makes me think that the rotation and situational cooldowns in AoC should not be as convoluted and that less is more when it comes to abilities.
I think you should be able to decide what abilities fit your playstyle and only be able to choose or talent in a select number of abilities. This would cut down on rotation bloat, refine your character identity and lead to interesting choices along the way.
(Example Ranger: do I choose to specialize into barrage and be mobile while shooting, or choose to talent the stationary snipe for big dmg, but must have a snare in my kit to keep distance? Or try to have both but lack in another department)
I solemnly believe this would bring out YOUR identity.
It also ensures not every class will feel the same, because you cannot take everything and might need others to help elevate your weakspots, when facing tougher foes.
Less abilities also means that 1. your weapon specialisation tree with its combo system has time to shine and 2. every ability press is deliberate and has weight to it. No longer are you mindlessly pressing a rotation, you are choosing to use your CC or heal-cut. You will still have press on CD abilities, but maby you speced into a bleed and can proudly say you have 100% uptime on it on enemies whereas another player can’t, but he can bleed multiple enemies at once.
For those who say, but MMOs need many abilities to be interesting I say, we have seen so many interesting combat systems with way less. V-Rising (6), League (4 + summoners and items), Overwatch (3 + ult) those are the most prominent that come to mind.
And I don’t want AoC to have only 4 abilities per character!
I just want the experience to be streamlined by the talent choices the player makes.
I think a Player should realistically only have to use and spec into 12 abilities out of all the abilities he is presented. That’s enough for 2 rotational spells, an AoE, mobility, def CD, dmg amp spell, CC, interrupt, heal and an ultimate (like the bard and warrior had) throw in 2 buffs/utility and you are done.
That’s a fairly good distribution, and if you want to have more of something, you now have a choice to make.
There would have to be restrictions on how many of one you can take (CC-bot prevention).
Using less of the confortable to use keys opens them up for other things too, like C for Character window.
Bind S and F to strafe. Use the mouse to run. Your options are now; Q, A, Z, X, C, D, E, W, R, T, G, B, V, and 1-6
19 keys total.
And B is for heal.
Re: Quantity of Abilities
The quantity of skills isn't the problem, I think it's more about the weight of those skills. In Guild Wars 2, most of classes play with 15-20 skills and it is very well balanced depending on the content. There is elementalist as well that have more than 30 skills (but is VERY hard to excel with that class). As said above, it's about controling your cooldowns and when to use certain skills ans when not to.
Re: Quantity of Abilities
The games you mentioned are all active combat situations, those are more on par with games like shooters and RTS. Tab targeting is about locking onto someone and blowing cool downs. maybe you'll run past each other to line of sight the person but that's about it. I don't see ashes needing any real skill to play compared to anything OP mentioned
Apok
1
Re: Quantity of Abilities
DerToastinator wrote: »I forgot how much fun it is to talk about this stuff.
Im realy thankfull for your imputs guys!
Im definitely warming up to the 20 abilities of AoC.
However i think the Block should be an ability and not a fixed hotkey. I dont know what a block exactly does, but i dont see a ranged dps using it very oftenYep, I guess I'll have to further explain my point later when I get home.
Even Albion Online with 9 abilities is not enough for me. It's not that it's boring, LoL isn't boring with 4 abilities, but it's something that I dislike, and I'll just have to think about it for a little bit to tell you what that exactly is.
Im curious! If i dont reply timely, im likely sleeping. Its getting late here.
Hope you get home safely!
It absolutely is fun to talk about everything! At this stage of development, there are a lot of possibilities, a lot of stuff to talk about and theorize about.
Regarding the Albion Online example, there are a few issues with having only 9 abilities.
To me, Albion actually felt more like a MOBA, especially when playing arena PvP.
The main thing is always preference, and I'm just going to try explain why I don't prefer that over other MMOs.
- It's too structured.
You have 9 abilities, meaning you have to fit certain things into your class kit.
By having to fit things in, it means you're missing out on something that maybe looks nice, or something that feels good to use.
What you will fit in there depends on your class and role, but it always boils down to a similar choice, especially in PvP. Damage-CC-Debuffs-Buffs-Heal-Mobility / Some choices will always be "META"
You always want damage, you want cc because PvP, you could maybe do with some debuffs, buffs to you so you deal more damage, or buffs to your defense, maybe a heal, and you need mobility for PvP.
Most classes need the following things, meaning there's no room for variety. Which brings me to my next point. - Variety
Simply having 1-2 ccs, 2-3 damage abilities, 1-2 buffs, 1-2 debuffs, 1-2 mobility skills is not enough variety for me in MMORPGs. I want at least 4-5 different ways to deal damage, whether it's single target, AoE, etc. on top of that, I want to have situational abilities, cc, cc breaks, maybe mobility, defensive and offensive buffs. I want more situational abilities, and more choices. I want those options to be right there on my skill bar, available to be used at (almost) any time. I want my abilities to interact with one another.
In example with Albion, there are no clear classes, there might be different roles, but I'd imagine most builds will go for the things I've mentioned in my previous point, meaning the variety between each class is not great. They all end up doing the same thing in PvP, just a bit differently.
I actually think GW2 also suffered a lot from this, where variety between each class was not the best, due to classes being homogenized a lot. especially in the last few years. Every class can do everything, the only difference are the mechanics and visuals. Obviously in GW2 it was not as bad, because it at least allows you to select more than 9 abilities. - Ability Design and Depth
Ability design itself is another issue, which also is tied with variety. With more abilities to select, you have different kind of abilities that you can use. As a Frost Mage, I might have an ice comet that just drops from the sky onto enemies, I might have an point-blank AoE freeze around my character, I might have a spammable attack with icicles, I might have a regular frost bolt, I might have a cone frost attack, I might have a blizzard-like ability I can place on the ground - all in the same kit.
With this much choice, you get to play with your abilities. My PB AoE freezes stuff around me, my spammable attack applies chill, which after 10 stacks turns into a freeze, my cone frost attack might apply a debuff, and my frost bolt might pop that debuff for extra damage. My Blizzard can act as an area denial tool, or it can be used on groups of enemies to slow and damage them over time while they stand inside.
It makes for a much more interesting way to interact with abilities, and it makes it possible for abilities to interact with one another.
On top of all of that, you have your Shell that gives magic protection to you, you have your blink for mobility, you have various buffs and debuffs, that further enhance your playstyle, your class identity and theme.
At the same time, you could design many different Frost abilities, so that you have a choice on what type of a Frost mage you want to be, close range, AoE, cc focused, long range, etc. - so you can select your abilities accordingly.
Now obviously in Ashes, the mage seems to be focused around different elements at the same time, and I think there will be a benefit to selecting multiple elements at the same time, so even then, there could be many synergies between frost and fire for example.
To take advantage of such design and such depth, you need more active abilities that you can use.
15 active abilities in this case would be fine I think. Plenty of space for utility, heals, buffs, debuffs on top of your main class abilities.
But, it can also be overdone, and the best example is WoW. Having what, 30? abilities on your bar is too much and it just feels like bloat, it could be simplified a bit definitely.
It might be because I'm looking for something different in MMORPGs, than in other games like MOBAs. I hope I've explained my point of view, and why I prefer having more abilities, and why having less feels limiting.
iccer
1
Re: [Feedback Request] Alpha Two Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview | August Livestream
Boss Mechanics Summary:
More Interaction, Less Static Combat:
- Combat should be engaging, not just button-mashing while watching health bars deplete.
- Current systems feel outdated and monotonous, especially in games like WoW where raid bosses "melt" under repetitive attacks.
Dynamic Boss Behaviour:
- Bosses should adjust their behavior based on the party composition (e.g., more melee-focused vs. more ranged players).
- This change in behavior would keep fights unpredictable, preventing a stale or "meta" strategy where players could easily exploit a certain approach (e.g., simply ranging down a boss).
- By adapting to the group’s tactics, bosses would discourage players from relying on one specific strategy, ensuring the fight remains challenging and engaging no matter the composition.
Damage Indicators:
- Visible signs of boss damage (e.g., broken horns, scars, colour changes) offer a sense of achievement.
- Games like *Monster Hunter* handle this well, offering a tangible connection between player actions and the boss's state.
Rage Mechanic & Phases:
- Instead of a single-phase battle, bosses should have multiple phases or elemental changes, each with different attack patterns.
- Example: *Monster Hunter’s* Alatreon, which changes elementally throughout the fight.
Environmental Interaction:
- Engage other mechanics during the fight, like ballista, cannons, or shielding from powerful attacks.
- Interaction with the environment can make boss fights feel more epic and strategic.
Weight of Attacks:
- Boss attacks should feel impactful (e.g., being knocked back or stunned by a tail swipe).
- The gravity and magnitude of boss actions should be felt by players, enhancing immersion.
Potential of Ashes of Creation:
- The game’s hybrid combat system and movement fluidity (dodge, roll, etc.) can make boss encounters feel dynamic and challenging.
- The goal is for players to feel the epic scale of bosses, especially dragons, which should induce tension and keep players engaged.
Overall Vision:
- Boss fights should be epic, challenging, and keep players on their toes with unpredictable, immersive mechanics.
- This isn't a comparison to other games, but a reflection on what has made other encounters feel fun and deep.
This is based on my own opinion I just hope the game will be great and will have its own take or spin on things but also keep things relevant. Really looking forwards to playing and I’m sure it will be a success 🙏🏼
More Interaction, Less Static Combat:
- Combat should be engaging, not just button-mashing while watching health bars deplete.
- Current systems feel outdated and monotonous, especially in games like WoW where raid bosses "melt" under repetitive attacks.
Dynamic Boss Behaviour:
- Bosses should adjust their behavior based on the party composition (e.g., more melee-focused vs. more ranged players).
- This change in behavior would keep fights unpredictable, preventing a stale or "meta" strategy where players could easily exploit a certain approach (e.g., simply ranging down a boss).
- By adapting to the group’s tactics, bosses would discourage players from relying on one specific strategy, ensuring the fight remains challenging and engaging no matter the composition.
Damage Indicators:
- Visible signs of boss damage (e.g., broken horns, scars, colour changes) offer a sense of achievement.
- Games like *Monster Hunter* handle this well, offering a tangible connection between player actions and the boss's state.
Rage Mechanic & Phases:
- Instead of a single-phase battle, bosses should have multiple phases or elemental changes, each with different attack patterns.
- Example: *Monster Hunter’s* Alatreon, which changes elementally throughout the fight.
Environmental Interaction:
- Engage other mechanics during the fight, like ballista, cannons, or shielding from powerful attacks.
- Interaction with the environment can make boss fights feel more epic and strategic.
Weight of Attacks:
- Boss attacks should feel impactful (e.g., being knocked back or stunned by a tail swipe).
- The gravity and magnitude of boss actions should be felt by players, enhancing immersion.
Potential of Ashes of Creation:
- The game’s hybrid combat system and movement fluidity (dodge, roll, etc.) can make boss encounters feel dynamic and challenging.
- The goal is for players to feel the epic scale of bosses, especially dragons, which should induce tension and keep players engaged.
Overall Vision:
- Boss fights should be epic, challenging, and keep players on their toes with unpredictable, immersive mechanics.
- This isn't a comparison to other games, but a reflection on what has made other encounters feel fun and deep.
This is based on my own opinion I just hope the game will be great and will have its own take or spin on things but also keep things relevant. Really looking forwards to playing and I’m sure it will be a success 🙏🏼
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
Cool thing. Would you please provide 15 examples (plenty to do)?
1. General mob grinding
2. World events
3. General questing/commissions
4. Solo pking
5. Bounty hunting
6. Fishing
7. Gathering
8. Crafting
9. Treasure hunting
10. Node wars, guild wars too really, if you choose to and/or are allowed to be solo. Guild wars obviously only if you are a "solo" player who just so happens to be in a guild. Node sieges...maybe. Not sure how exactly those work yet, and who can get in, whether solo or not.
11. Caravans, inasmuch as the system's design ends up encouraging players to spontaneously defend or attack nearby caravans. We've heard of solo caravans, and there's mules too. Still lots unclear here, but there are indications that solos will be able to participate
12. Exploration/scouting/spying
13. General trading/auction house play/personal player stalls/traveling merchant
14. Lootwhore. Go to hotspots where people die often either to pve or pvp fights breaking out, and just loot people. Only possible because the game is designed in a way that allows it to be something you can do. No guildies on? Only an hour to play anyway? Head to the hotspot and lootwhore. Laugh at the chaos and shenanigans later irl when you log off. A bit unsavory, but can be lots of fun doing it to people who deserve it. Which is most people. Because they'd do it to you. See how that works. On the flip side, be a traveling/patrolling noble knight for your node or other areas. Intervene in fights where you think an injustice is happening. Yes, you can do this solo. Eat some salmon, get the omega 3's going, so you can make good decisions on which fights to take and which not to. It's very doable. Again, only possible in the game because the game allows that freedom for things to happen.
15. Achievement hunting/pet and mount collecting/housing(even if only an apartment, a bit of crop farming, decorating maybe)/religious and social organization progression.
Interesting quote from the wiki about "social organizations."
"Social organizations cater for solo players who don't wish to engage in guild-oriented organizations."
Ironic heh. But there ya go.
Okeydoke
5
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
AirborneBerserker wrote: »Given thatAirborneBerserker wrote: »First there is no reason to assume most people are in guilds given most MMO players are solo, meaning at best your looking at 50% of people being in guilds.
Create a guild for solo players and tell them to never play together.
That guild could prevent all other players to log into the server and claim the server for soloers only and break Steven's pillars.
Then all other 13 examples are whatever they want to do.
No, because I'm not in the business of telling people there having fun wrong.
You said 50% play solo. You would just have to bring them into your guild by describing your goal. Then the server would be for you and people like you.
Otr
1
Re: Where is the progress
I am all for more transparent develop updates and would love more frequent looks “under the hood” but I feel like most of the community does not grasp how ambitious this project is.
For perspective, sea of thieves was made with over 200 developers and that game had very little content at launch. Ashes of creation is making sea of thieves, but BETTER, inside of a bigger game and that’s only a small fraction of what they want to deliver. You had add in the fact they just reached a team size over 200 this year and you can start to see why things are taking so long.
For perspective, sea of thieves was made with over 200 developers and that game had very little content at launch. Ashes of creation is making sea of thieves, but BETTER, inside of a bigger game and that’s only a small fraction of what they want to deliver. You had add in the fact they just reached a team size over 200 this year and you can start to see why things are taking so long.
RonDog98
3
Re: Loot System Changes
All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards.
I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with.
What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly?
So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content.
That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’.
You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game.
Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials.
If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone.
An "abusive" loot system is part of the game. The relationship between guild members both internal and external is the game. For heroes to exist there must be villains.
You are difficult to work with because you refuse to accept the design of the game and insist that those social hooks are thrown away because you need to feel rewarded.
Players need to be rewarded, that’s the point. You need to have something that makes people want to do the content at risk of gear degradation, exp debt due to death in PvX, time spent, etc, and if you don’t have that carrot at the end of the stick, you’re going to end up with a game that’s lacking a population willing to do that content.
If the goal is 10k players per server, a very hefty goal for a ‘niche’ game, there has to be something keeping players invested in risking their time and resources for what will amount to most often, no reward.
If ‘abuse’ was intended, which I definitely think is a bunch of nonsense, then why aren’t combat meters permitted on the basis of players being abusive with the information?
Caeryl
2
Re: Loot System Changes
The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point.
I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same.
For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned.
Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better.
For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e).
But this could be abused as well.
For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed.
So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers.
The only determinant factors on getting loot should be:
1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died
2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way
3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would
fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc)
These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason.
The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race.
If it is handled in this way, then hopefully all the items you get are tradable, otherwise you might end up getting something you didn't want or really wanted a friend to get/have and not being able to do anything about it.
Nothing* in Ashes is intended to be soul bound, so yeah everyone can freely trade afterwards if they want to.
Edit: *very few items might be but we haven’t seen any of them so far so I’m hoping they’ll stick with no BoP
Caeryl
2