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Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
And just to be clear: the content of my posts is all mine. But I use DeepL to translate because English is not my mother tongue.
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
DrunkDebauchery wrote: »Sophisticus, obviously your name is trying to use a derivative of sophisticated using Latin as its origin.
That was put out there by you Sophisticus... "This RNG gear enhancement, dull mob grind and strong vertical power scaling undermines (almost) everything that is fun in a video game in general. There are 7 different basic video game design principles that determine gameplay fun."
Simple questions:
1. Where did you find this?
2. Are those your own words?
a. If those are your own words, who are you to tell anyone what fun is, and who are you to decide what constitutes gameplay?
b. If those are not your own words, you either copy, pasted, and/or used a chat bot to type that for you i.e. being lazy or plagiarism.
Case in point, video Blackjack is fun to the maximum, and it requires minimal principles.
1. Insert $20 USD into video blackjack machine.
2. Order McCallan 24 Year Single Malt Scotch with two small ice cubes.
3. Tip The Bartender $100 USD.
I'm sorry if I somehow hurt your feelings with this, but if your only strategy is to attack me personally instead of responding to my arguments, then you will only be ignored by me.
Re: Ashes of Creation: Resurrecting The MMORPG Genre
This is a perfect example why someone should not do drugs. First part was OK, then it just spiraled.
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
This RNG gear enhancement, dull mob grind and strong vertical power scaling undermines (almost) everything that is fun in a video game in general. There are 7 different basic video game design principles that determine gameplay fun.
1. competence & challenge
The player is challenged, but not overwhelmed. This creates the so-called flow state. Fun is created when you get better, overcome obstacles and surpass yourself in your abilities.
2. autonomy & freedom of choice
Players want to make meaningful decisions. Freedom of choice creates a sense of control and self-efficacy. Fun is created when you have the feeling: “I have an influence on this world.”
3. connectedness & social resonance
Multiplayer games, guilds, co-op: playing together strengthens bonds and creates collective fun. Fun comes from community or emotional connection.
4. discovery & curiosity
Fun exploring worlds, mechanics or stories. The thirst for knowledge is rewarded.
The player thinks: “What else is out there?”
5. fantasy & aesthetics
The escape into other worlds, roles or perspectives. Many games offer emotional or visual experiences. Fun through aesthetic fascination or immersion.
6. narration & meaning
Stories with meaning create emotional depth. You don't just experience something, you feel something. Fun is often more “meaningful” than entertaining.
7. reward & progress
Level-ups, loot, new skills - the progression system activates our reward system. Fun through measurable growth and feedback.
Principles 1-6 are inherent fun, i.e. the activities themselves are fun. No. 7 is external fun. The activities you do don't necessarily have to be fun, the rewards just have to be good enough to motivate you.
Ashes tries to apply all these principles. Intrepid also places great emphasis on No. 7 with a strongly vertical power scaling, blunt grind and RNG gear enhancement.
1. strong vertical power scaling should increase the extrinsic motivation to make progress.
2. the grind should only artificially create playtime until you get the reward.
3. an RNG Gear Enhancement System should increase the thrill of the reward and thus reinforce it.
The problem, however, is that Ashes contradicts and damages many inherent fun principles with these three concepts, which all lead up to and reinforce #7.
The way in which Ashes #7 is motivated, prolonged and reinforced by thrills contradicts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #6
No. 1 Skill & Challenge
The RNG Gear Enhancement System will penalize the player for something they can't do. You lose resources, progress or even items.
This contradicts the flow principle (skill growth) and often creates learning blocks or frustration. (Which in itself is not a bad thing to go backwards if the cause was my lack of skills)
No. 2 Autonomy & freedom of choice
Successful enhancement is not skill-based, but random. This can destroy autonomy and a sense of competence. Players feel powerless because their efforts are not reliably rewarded. There is no player agancy here. If I want to get ahead, I hand over success or failure to a passive system.
To compensate for the luck system, there is often massive grinding, which artificially inflates the playing time but doesn't really fill it with content.
No. 3 Connectedness & social resonance
The strongly vertical power scaling harms being part of a collective. It does not connect through shared meaning and adventure, but divides through strong power differences. Low level or low geared players will feel disconnected from the high level players and useless to the community, e.g. in PvP. The prolonged leveling process only reinforces the time gap.
No. 4 Discovery & Curiosity
The highly vertical power scaling will increase the need to progress. This will feel more like a compulsion than fun. This perceived compulsion and dull grind will kill the fascination and curiosity for the beautiful game world.
No. 6 Narration & Meaning
With the tedious dull grind, the wide separation from the other players you want to catch up with in order to be included and the regression of gear progression over whose success or failure you have no control, the very last meaning and purpose of your efforts is completely emptied. This makes the entire progression feel pointless.
The reinforcement of rewards through RNG, their artificial and blunt temporal extension through mob grind and the compulsive gear progression through a strong vertical power scaling will only lead to one thing: All the players who experience gameplay fun through inherent motivation (#1-6) will leave the game completely fatigued, pointless, bored and disappointed after a few months at the latest. The only players left will be those who enjoy the game through the reinforcement and extension of No. 7. No. 7 will ultimately dominate and destroy everything else. It exploits psychological weaknesses (FOMO, reward dopamine, fear of loss) rather than focusing on sustained enjoyment through skill, discovery, community or meaning.
1. competence & challenge
The player is challenged, but not overwhelmed. This creates the so-called flow state. Fun is created when you get better, overcome obstacles and surpass yourself in your abilities.
2. autonomy & freedom of choice
Players want to make meaningful decisions. Freedom of choice creates a sense of control and self-efficacy. Fun is created when you have the feeling: “I have an influence on this world.”
3. connectedness & social resonance
Multiplayer games, guilds, co-op: playing together strengthens bonds and creates collective fun. Fun comes from community or emotional connection.
4. discovery & curiosity
Fun exploring worlds, mechanics or stories. The thirst for knowledge is rewarded.
The player thinks: “What else is out there?”
5. fantasy & aesthetics
The escape into other worlds, roles or perspectives. Many games offer emotional or visual experiences. Fun through aesthetic fascination or immersion.
6. narration & meaning
Stories with meaning create emotional depth. You don't just experience something, you feel something. Fun is often more “meaningful” than entertaining.
7. reward & progress
Level-ups, loot, new skills - the progression system activates our reward system. Fun through measurable growth and feedback.
Principles 1-6 are inherent fun, i.e. the activities themselves are fun. No. 7 is external fun. The activities you do don't necessarily have to be fun, the rewards just have to be good enough to motivate you.
Ashes tries to apply all these principles. Intrepid also places great emphasis on No. 7 with a strongly vertical power scaling, blunt grind and RNG gear enhancement.
1. strong vertical power scaling should increase the extrinsic motivation to make progress.
2. the grind should only artificially create playtime until you get the reward.
3. an RNG Gear Enhancement System should increase the thrill of the reward and thus reinforce it.
The problem, however, is that Ashes contradicts and damages many inherent fun principles with these three concepts, which all lead up to and reinforce #7.
The way in which Ashes #7 is motivated, prolonged and reinforced by thrills contradicts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #6
No. 1 Skill & Challenge
The RNG Gear Enhancement System will penalize the player for something they can't do. You lose resources, progress or even items.
This contradicts the flow principle (skill growth) and often creates learning blocks or frustration. (Which in itself is not a bad thing to go backwards if the cause was my lack of skills)
No. 2 Autonomy & freedom of choice
Successful enhancement is not skill-based, but random. This can destroy autonomy and a sense of competence. Players feel powerless because their efforts are not reliably rewarded. There is no player agancy here. If I want to get ahead, I hand over success or failure to a passive system.
To compensate for the luck system, there is often massive grinding, which artificially inflates the playing time but doesn't really fill it with content.
No. 3 Connectedness & social resonance
The strongly vertical power scaling harms being part of a collective. It does not connect through shared meaning and adventure, but divides through strong power differences. Low level or low geared players will feel disconnected from the high level players and useless to the community, e.g. in PvP. The prolonged leveling process only reinforces the time gap.
No. 4 Discovery & Curiosity
The highly vertical power scaling will increase the need to progress. This will feel more like a compulsion than fun. This perceived compulsion and dull grind will kill the fascination and curiosity for the beautiful game world.
No. 6 Narration & Meaning
With the tedious dull grind, the wide separation from the other players you want to catch up with in order to be included and the regression of gear progression over whose success or failure you have no control, the very last meaning and purpose of your efforts is completely emptied. This makes the entire progression feel pointless.
The reinforcement of rewards through RNG, their artificial and blunt temporal extension through mob grind and the compulsive gear progression through a strong vertical power scaling will only lead to one thing: All the players who experience gameplay fun through inherent motivation (#1-6) will leave the game completely fatigued, pointless, bored and disappointed after a few months at the latest. The only players left will be those who enjoy the game through the reinforcement and extension of No. 7. No. 7 will ultimately dominate and destroy everything else. It exploits psychological weaknesses (FOMO, reward dopamine, fear of loss) rather than focusing on sustained enjoyment through skill, discovery, community or meaning.
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
DrunkDebauchery wrote: »OP, here is a great idea, and this is what you will do...
Take a belt, tighten that belt on your arm, slap that vein, take The Vessel, insert The Needle into sulfuric acid, draw The Syringe, penetrate your vein, push that syringe, and learn to mind your manners.
You did that to yourself OP. Your temper tantrum was the definition of juvenile.
Just to point out the obvious, your response to the OP is, in fact, the definition of a juvenile response, especially since the post from the OP was not particularly over the top, all things considered within these forums.
Update: The post being quoted above has been removed from the thread and now has no context - but you can see why with just the snippet shown...
Caww
3
Re: Wait!! dull Grind, vertical Power Scaling and RNG Gear Enchanting?? WTF
IMO systems like this are really good.
The issue is that a good number of western players don't understand them. People tend to treat it like luck, when they should be treating it as a matter of probability.
Never enchant what you can't afford to lose, and never enchant only one of any given item.
In Archeage, where this system is mostly pulled from, if I was enchanting an item with the target of hitting a tier 3 above where the risk of destruction starts, I am starting off with 32 of that item, and am stil prepared to walk away with nothing.
i know dude, i played archeage since release 2014 and i play now Archeage Classic on privat server in the moment and i KNOW how shit this kind of system is and the main Reason for this System is only Gambling addiction, economy and uncrativity.
There are so many more exciting and fun options for Gold Skins, Items Sink and Gear Progress Risk vs Reward. Albion Online shows you how.
Re: Why a balanced power scaling is so important for Ashes
Though to be fair, if the combat is even average in complexity, the same problems are going to occur even if the gear is tuned well...
And a game with tightly tuned gear often has to create interest through non-simplistic combat, so I'd say to Intrepid to remember that getting the gear scaling right is barely 'step 1 of 4' and won't lead to significantly less complaining.
And a game with tightly tuned gear often has to create interest through non-simplistic combat, so I'd say to Intrepid to remember that getting the gear scaling right is barely 'step 1 of 4' and won't lead to significantly less complaining.
Azherae
2
Re: Steven, Please Rethink “Not for Everyone”
Enigmatic Sage wrote: »a game for everyone is a game for no one.
It means you don't know or have any clue whom the target audience is.
Another one who missed the point. No one is asking for that.
Re: Steven, Please Rethink “Not for Everyone”
Enigmatic Sage wrote: »a game for everyone is a game for no one.
It means you don't know or have any clue whom the target audience is.
A game for everyone that ends up being for no one still ends up with a massive playerbase.
A game for a very small few usually ends up not being a game for very long.
Ashes target audience is getting smaller and smaller every time Steven talks about it.
Noaani
3