Best Of
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
Depraved
2
Re: Loot System Changes
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Depraved
1
Re: Loot System Changes
I am finding it a bit interesting that Intrepid and loot systems in AoC has revived this debate. Is this a case where bringing back that nostalgia is counterproductive to development?
I seem to have this opinion that recent MMO's have solved all these problems. And playing those as someone aware of all those systems. I was a bit taken by surprise when I would receive some loot from a raid boss. I guess it is kind of the Diablo-esque style where a chest drops and everyone with loot rights gets a pull at it.(I mean the loot mechanic, not the number of items that drop or table roll RNG chances and percentages)
The interesting thing about this, I think auction house and player trading completely solves the problem. As I have picked up loot in other games, first waiting for a minute for someone to lambast me for looting. Just to have found something that looks high value but not useable by my character.
Even player trading does not seem mainstream any longer. Where recent experience is that I should not even try to trade, even within my guild. They just tell me don't waste your time or my time. Just go put it on the auction house. Or in Ashes case I guess just go put out my player shop shingle for a while, good loot should sell pretty easily. Poor loot, well just becomes deconstruct for mats.
So I wonder, what is the appetite for guilds to have to manage loot distribution via their own rules? And what is the reason that a guild want to have that level of control on distribution of loot?
You mentioned the two systems going against the intended design of the economy, caravan systems, in depth crafting, importance of freeholds (which brings back the value of property as more than just RP decorating contests that nobody cares for and wont visit your house anyway). And on top of it some people call the alternative (the old school) nostalgia or labelling it mean spirited designed to punish participants.
You want all players to receive loot and you want AH? So you want the economy to be reduced to a cheaper than previous listing peanut gains competition since the markets will be flooded with the participation trophy loot?
So basically gear will be so easily accessible that there wont be a need to craft and equip characters, they can just bare with the loot gear for the next few levels, avoid spending time in gathering processing crafting and all the indepth meaningful mmo designed gameplay, since, know, there will be cheap gear in the AH for the next few levels and we can make this whole mmo into yet another race to the max level.
Yes, there isnt much thought going into these possitions and when they are countered the default action is to go into victimhood, and derail the topic to a back and forth of "you dont know what you are talking about" making it hard for anybody tasked with gathering feedback to bother clicking on the next page.
AoC will be complex because it wants to bring back quality mmo gameplay as opposed to instant gratification and 0 challenge designs.
These proposals wont work.
Re: Loot System Changes
Lol, competing against your own group?
That sounds like behaviour typically found in lobby based instanced raiding mmos, in which you queue with ppl you will never play with again.
Here is how the group/guild would deal with it:
We loot a 40 Lv Bow, we have 3 archers, one is 35 one is 45 one is 40.
The 45 would get it to face harder mobs than the 40 guy
or
The Lv40 guy is more active and would make better use of it
or a formal points based guild system (which I dont care for too much) and give it to the guy who is supposed to get it.
Anyway the topic bores me. Suit yourself. When giving feedback dont work towards the opposite direction of what the game tries to achieve.
(And dont mention my opposition to the class system. It's not the same)
That sounds like behaviour typically found in lobby based instanced raiding mmos, in which you queue with ppl you will never play with again.
Here is how the group/guild would deal with it:
We loot a 40 Lv Bow, we have 3 archers, one is 35 one is 45 one is 40.
The 45 would get it to face harder mobs than the 40 guy
or
The Lv40 guy is more active and would make better use of it
or a formal points based guild system (which I dont care for too much) and give it to the guy who is supposed to get it.
Anyway the topic bores me. Suit yourself. When giving feedback dont work towards the opposite direction of what the game tries to achieve.
(And dont mention my opposition to the class system. It's not the same)
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
And I am punished with no response? =PAirborneBerserker wrote: »Implying what?AirborneBerserker wrote: »Well this is progress of a sort.Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.AirborneBerserker wrote: »
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a soloplay themepark LFG lobby.
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
Given their other thread, I wouldn’t expect much in the way of answers.
Caeryl
1
Re: Vassal resentment
I think the pertinent questions are "Is a node barred from warring with your parent node"? and "Can a node break its vassalization by any means OTHER then a war with the parent node?" It would be unacceptable for the answers to be Yes and No respectivly. But if the first answer is No then the second question could be anything, though it would be NICE to have alternatives even if the only option is to become a vassal of a DIFFRENT node that is also higher tier. Even that would give rise to interesting player driven diplomacy.
Also I do not see the drive to 'test' such a child/parent war. If their are no restrictions that make that war initiation or conclusion different from any other then their is nothing special to test. Only if their is a whole 'special' system of permissions and consequences for such an event would it need testing. For example if a child node defeats a parent will cause it to automatically aquire parenthood over it's old siblings in a way that it would not have had the parent node been defeated by an outside group, that would obviously need a test.
Currently it is indeed a "Yes" and "No" respectively, which I also find to be a strange turn given how the rest of the Ashes world state is meant to function.
Vassals should have a method of usurping even if its a very taxing, difficult method, because the Node progression system is (as it's been showcased so far) will very quickly lock other nodes out of progress just because some people were farming here instead of over there. Maybe it'll play out differently since the nodes are static and already typed in the base state, but getting change to happen is going to be such a hassle.
Caeryl
2
Re: Is there a problem for solo players
Implying what?AirborneBerserker wrote: »Well this is progress of a sort.Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.AirborneBerserker wrote: »
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a soloplay themepark LFG lobby.
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
Re: Dragon Raid Boss
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »A small rez of 25% hp/mana or a small heal here and there are nothing compared to "I stand up pretty much right next to the boss with full mana and hp".There is no way you are telling me infinite res + healing and mana doesn't' help them win, and defend someone saying about the raid being done in the first try as if this was their only recording...
We don't know about how many recordings they did, but from a quick rewatch it seemed to have been a full singular encounter (though I'd need to properly rewatch to know for sure).
And the boss would've be beaten on first try if it was attempted by properly built parties, with properly built characters, by properly skilled players. And imo, none of that was true in this fight, which is why they needed those GM powers (or potentially a GM-powered respawn location) to win.
I've just seen several people say "oh, they won cause Steven had endless hp, so he could rez them", but his impact was at most a few % of the raid's overall power, if that. I'd need to pay close attention to his rezzes and their follow-ups to know for sure, but I got Genshin to clear and I've already spent 2 hours chatting about Ashes in different places, so maybe later
Ya but healing is broken in this game atm, if they get up with 25% he brings them to full pretty quickly on top of that because of heal spam.
Which is why i think its interesting if people think this is also too easy, or sayin things like boss needs to one shot people. The whole issue is healing is overturned right now which makes all the difficulty lower in the game.
Mag7spy
1
Open World Bosses and You - The Importance of Furniture Drops
I have seen many concerns about the games loot system in reaction the showcase of Firebrand. After discussion with Azherae I have come to the conclusion that there is an easy enough fix that Intrepid might already have in the works. The solution? Furniture drops! (and other non-combat oriented crafting.)
The main complaint I have seen is "Why should I help fight a boss if I get nothing out of it?". I think this is an important concern when it comes to 'node loyalty' that Steven seems to be betting on. Guilds swiping all the content local to your node is discouraging. Even if you are at the bottom of the rung in the ruling guild, you are still demoralized! As a citizen of a Node, you should feel good about the content in your node. You should feel some comfort in the unique content in your node. There is going to be a lot of live content at various sizes that you as a citizen stand to benefit from. But getting gear, while important, does not really feed a player's positive play loop when considering the node. It makes you more powerful. It makes you more capable of defending your node, but what of the content? What of the character of that content!
I propose that this problem is solved through the power of a wyvern leather chair or couch. Furniture that can go in your peasant abode, in your apartments, townhouses, and freeholds. Furniture, as we know, grants you little quality of life benefits mechanically, but not enough for it being a common drop from impactful content like Firebrand to be a point of imbalance. Small drops like this may seem like they have an equally small impact, but I can assure you that one must never underestimate the power of player housing when it comes to incentive to participate in open world content!
Rest easy about Firebrand drops by sitting back in your Firebrand recliner!
Edit: In case it isn't clear I mean materials specifically for that furniture, not entire pieces. Crafting the furniture is still important.
The main complaint I have seen is "Why should I help fight a boss if I get nothing out of it?". I think this is an important concern when it comes to 'node loyalty' that Steven seems to be betting on. Guilds swiping all the content local to your node is discouraging. Even if you are at the bottom of the rung in the ruling guild, you are still demoralized! As a citizen of a Node, you should feel good about the content in your node. You should feel some comfort in the unique content in your node. There is going to be a lot of live content at various sizes that you as a citizen stand to benefit from. But getting gear, while important, does not really feed a player's positive play loop when considering the node. It makes you more powerful. It makes you more capable of defending your node, but what of the content? What of the character of that content!
I propose that this problem is solved through the power of a wyvern leather chair or couch. Furniture that can go in your peasant abode, in your apartments, townhouses, and freeholds. Furniture, as we know, grants you little quality of life benefits mechanically, but not enough for it being a common drop from impactful content like Firebrand to be a point of imbalance. Small drops like this may seem like they have an equally small impact, but I can assure you that one must never underestimate the power of player housing when it comes to incentive to participate in open world content!
Rest easy about Firebrand drops by sitting back in your Firebrand recliner!
Edit: In case it isn't clear I mean materials specifically for that furniture, not entire pieces. Crafting the furniture is still important.
JustVine
2
Re: Steven's response to secondary archetypes
There's always gamers who claim there is a META.
Dygz
2