Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Classsystem META-problem
Hi, for all i know AoC will have a class system with a primary class and a secondary class.
Basically i like this idea, cause it should give every Player the possibility to create and play his own playstile the way he/she wants it. I'm sure that's part of the concept behind this.
But I also see a problem in it.
For every primary class there will be some secondary classes that interacts better with the primary class the others (META). Its most likely that the Community will expect players the choose those META-Combinations if they want to be part of an successful guilds or of a big Raidgroup. (If you want an Example see next post)
I want to ask if (and how) the developers are trying to prevent such a trend of META-constraint.
Greetings,
Archimedis
Basically i like this idea, cause it should give every Player the possibility to create and play his own playstile the way he/she wants it. I'm sure that's part of the concept behind this.
But I also see a problem in it.
For every primary class there will be some secondary classes that interacts better with the primary class the others (META). Its most likely that the Community will expect players the choose those META-Combinations if they want to be part of an successful guilds or of a big Raidgroup. (If you want an Example see next post)
I want to ask if (and how) the developers are trying to prevent such a trend of META-constraint.
Greetings,
Archimedis
0
Comments
Lets imagine there is a Class that fits very well in the Tank-Role, we call it "The Protector".
When a Protector-player takes part in a Raidgroup or in groupdungens he usually plays the role of a Tank, and the other players expect him to be a Tank.
But now we have a primary-Protector how also likes to burn people, that's why he chooses "Mage" as his secondary class, so he can throw fireballs while holding up his shield.
However, during the the progress of the game the community discovers that a Protector-healer, is a much better Tank than a Protector-Mage. That's why everyone expects Protector-players to choose "Healer" or one of the other META-Combinations as there secondary class.
A Protector-Mage, is considered to be a "Bad-combination" and Players who still choose to play it, get excluded from the successful Guilds and from ambitious Raidgroups.
A similar trend is to be expected for every Class, if not prevented. For every primary class there will be 2 or 3 "META-combinations" and everyone who likes to play OFF-META will have a hard time in the community. At least when it comes to take part in ambitious Group activities
Lets imagine there is a Class that fits very well in the Tank-Role, we call it “The Protector”.
When a Protector-player takes part in a Raidgroup or in groupdungens he usually plays the role of a Tank, and the other players expect him to be a Tank.
But now we have a primary-Protector how also likes to burn people, that’s why he chooses “Mage” as his secondary class, so he can throw fireballs while holding up his shield.
However, during the the progress of the game the community discovers that a Protector-healer, is a much better Tank than a Protector-Mage. That’s why everyone expects Protector-players to choose “Healer” or one of the other META-Combinations as there secondary class.
A Protector-Mage, is considered to be a “Bad-combination” and Players who still choose to play it, get excluded from the successful Guilds and from ambitious Raidgroups.
A similar trend is to be expected for every Class, if not prevented. For every primary class there will be 2 or 3 “META-combinations” and everyone who likes to play OFF-META will have a hard time in the community. At least when it comes to take part in ambitious Group activities[/quote]
Sounds like the players faults rather than the games design.
There's a great amount of pleasure to be had making something non-meta work well, and a lot of people will play what they enjoy and won't be told what class combo to play unless that person offers to pay their sub.
If the game is designed well, there will be need for all possibilities depending on the situation, but any group makeup should be viable.
It's best to balance the game design around each unique class (give the class a purpose within the world) rather than allowing every class to play how ever they want.
But what i want to avoid is some kind of META-constraint. I don't really see any why to prevent it (that's why i made this Post). But if it cant be avoided there should at least be a way the "get out of the Non-META".
Just imagine you invested hundreds of Hours in your Healer-Archer and then you discover that your Character is just not valid in the Eyes of the Community. (Since AoC is aiming for being driven by the Community, this should not be underestimated).
If this happens, you should at least have the possibility to change your secondary class.
On the other side i would not like if you could change your Sec-Class like your Gear. A model that allows players the "adapt" to a changing META needs the be carefully managed.
any healer that can heal the damage on the tank faster than he takes it is an ideal healer.
any DPS that can kill is an ideal DPS.
screw your meta. I'm playing mage-rogue, and if you hate me for that, you may go bang your head on a wall and then jump off a cliff
^ my philosophy.
Look at League of Legends, even though more Characters are added, every season a new Meta is made. Its those that find the most effective combos that will put them in the lead.
However does this mean you have to follow it? The simple answer is No. A player has a right to choose what they want to do and how they want there play style.
You do bring a good point of Guilds/Partys that expect the Meta, this is because Organized Groups prefer the most effective Combos to get threw some content. It is a up to the group if they see the combination the player is using is going to fit well with there mix.
This you wont be able to get around sadly.
But if the community has experience with other MMO's that break the Meta i would like to hear there ideas.
I have yet to see a MMO without any class or build meta.
A: We have a unique and detailed class system, which we will discuss further in a developer’s blog. For now, I can say that we have 8 archetypes. You will choose an archetype as your primary class that you will level from starting level to max level. Along the way, you will choose a secondary class from the 8 archetypes. That secondary class will augment your primary class’ abilities and skills. In total, our class system will have 64 distinct classes, of which there will be a wide variety of customization in skills and abilities based on the player’s choices."
They was also a post mentioning how races will also add "flavor" to each class system (primary and secondary). META will always be present but with like 215 something class combinations possible, it will be some time for a META to form as well as one to stay with the dev's ability to hero balance/ability balance.
Basically i like this idea, cause it should give every Player the possibility to create and play his own playstile the way he/she wants it. I’m sure that’s part of the concept behind this.
But I also see a problem in it.
For every primary class there will be some secondary classes that interacts better with the primary class the others (META). Its most likely that the Community will expect players the choose those META-Combinations if they want to be part of an successful guilds or of a big Raidgroup. (If you want an Example see next post)
I want to ask if (and how) the developers are trying to prevent such a trend of META-constraint.
Greetings,
Archimedis
[/quote]
If I had to guess your secondary class is more utility and flair.
E.g. numbers say XY is rank 1 and XZ is rank 2 with 97% performance(based on the 100% XY), but you perform 15% worse with XY 'cause "it's just not your playstyle" - why would someone prefer you with the meta combo while you could simply prove that you would outperform nearly most of the meta roller which tryhard to get the meta-stats but never reach them and get posts in the forum like "git gud scrub".
I've progressed in WoW, I FOTM rolled classes, rerolled, and min-maxed stuff just to find out, that someone else got better numbers at the other bosses without the meta build. Because the situation was more suitable for his build. I started to ignore the meta, and it worked better than any meta could be.
Sure theoretically meta always performs better, but in reality: we are humans, we can't time everything perfect and also there are many situations that will nullify the pros of the meta.
Another quick example, why are you even playing a rogue if a mage tops the dps charts? Probably because you don't like casting and you are better at melee combat?
Meta is a thing sure, in every game, even in real-life... but I dont take it too serious, it can be inspiring tho.
Edit:
I nearly forgot the main-part of my posting:
A really good guild will always accept outstanding players, no matter what the meta says, if they have performance they deliver that matches the guilds/clans philosophy.
Guilds that pick just the best of the best, will fall over the crest just like the rest.
If a guild picks average players and coordinate them with less pressure. They'll stay together way longer, as far I could experienced social-stuff in the gaming scene. They wont be the best at peak, but they will <em>stay</em> among the good ones.
Kind of over-dramatic written, sorry but I got into it after the rhyme.
TL;DR
Situations and preferences > meta
Look at League of Legends, even though more Characters are added, every season a new Meta is made. Its those that find the most effective combos that will put them in the lead.
However does this mean you have to follow it? The simple answer is No. A player has a right to choose what they want to do and how they want there play style.
You do bring a good point of Guilds/Partys that expect the Meta, this is because Organized Groups prefer the most effective Combos to get threw some content. It is a up to the group if they see the combination the player is using is going to fit well with there mix.
This you wont be able to get around sadly.
But if the community has experience with other MMO’s that break the Meta i would like to hear there ideas.
[/quote]
League of Legends is a great example of skill trumping the meta. It's been proven on many occasions that players that only play one champion, even if that champion is "out of the meta" can do amazingly well, even at the highest level, and more often than not it is these 1-trick ponies that take the champion to the next level and discover things that nobody else thought were possible.
That said, there is a key difference between a game like LoL and an mmo in that most mmorpgs are heavily gear reliant, and a lot of the time a class' effectiveness relies on what gear is available. I remember back in WoW TBC you would never see a Feral Druid tank in a high end raiding guild because the gear that was available for them at the time wasn't well optimised for tanking, and there was a lot less gear available for them compared to Warrior and Paladin tanks. So it's not just about balancing the class stats but also the gear for those classes.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/classsystem-meta-problem/#post-11523" rel="nofollow">Zackallic wrote:</a></div>
This will be something really hard to stir away from. There seems to always be a Meta.
Look at League of Legends, even though more Characters are added, every season a new Meta is made. Its those that find the most effective combos that will put them in the lead.
However does this mean you have to follow it? The simple answer is No. A player has a right to choose what they want to do and how they want there play style.
You do bring a good point of Guilds/Partys that expect the Meta, this is because Organized Groups prefer the most effective Combos to get threw some content. It is a up to the group if they see the combination the player is using is going to fit well with there mix.
This you wont be able to get around sadly.
But if the community has experience with other MMO’s that break the Meta i would like to hear there ideas.
</blockquote>
League of Legends is a great example of skill trumping the meta. It’s been proven on many occasions that players that only play one champion, even if that champion is “out of the meta” can do amazingly well, even at the highest level, and more often than not it is these 1-trick ponies that take the champion to the next level and discover things that nobody else thought were possible.
That said, there is a key difference between a game like LoL and an mmo in that most mmorpgs are heavily gear reliant, and a lot of the time a class’ effectiveness relies on what gear is available. I remember back in WoW TBC you would never see a Feral Druid tank in a high end raiding guild because the gear that was available for them at the time wasn’t well optimised for tanking, and there was a lot less gear available for them compared to Warrior and Paladin tanks. So it’s not just about balancing the class stats but also the gear for those classes.
[/quote]
I can understand that having limited gear can inhibit the full potential of a class. I have a suggestion for that- why not have high end gear who's stats can be varied? that way you can have a stealthy defensive mage or a pure back row offensive one.
I can understand that having limited gear can inhibit the full potential of a class. I have a suggestion for that- why not have high end gear who’s stats can be varied? that way you can have a stealthy defensive mage or a pure back row offensive one.
[/quote]
How varied are we talking here? It would certainly be interesting if each piece of gear just had a set number of points on it that you could then distribute to whatever stats you like. That would be a theory-crafter's min-max heaven. Of course having a system like that would give less usefulness to the crafters since you could just make the same piece of armour for everyone who would then take it and customise it themselves. Unless of course you made it so that only a high level crafter could change the stats on an item. That would actually be pretty cool, and really allow high level crafters to be able to make truly customised gear for their clients. So many potential opportunities there.