Options

Combat System

Well hello there. My first post (after introduction of course) is going to be about the combat system but before a short digression:

I decided to stop playing MMOs altogether due to the stagnation and desolation in the genre that pretty much everyone can see around.
I'll only start playing mmos again when I'll find a game I'm ready to play for a decade or even more and not those kind of disposable titles that we play for less than a couple of years and move to the next.

Among other requirements (for the complete list check my introduction) I'm looking for a game that has a true action combat.

With this I do not mean necessarly free aming but a combat where you need to be responsive and "situational".
I don't mind or actually I even like aim assist features (like in B&S or Black Desert) if done right.

As an example: I usually play tank and I'd like to have an active block/parry skill that I need to time right (TERA as one of the best parry systems I have tried as tank so far) and not just a RNG block/parry, same goes for i-frames and evades.

Now I'm kind of worried cause <a href="http://www.mmorpg.com/ashes-of-creation/interviews/intrepid-studios-aims-to-breathe-new-life-into-the-mmorpg-1000011398">here</a> they say: "We are more fitted towards a traditional tab-targeted system, but we are implementing elements of mobility and positioning for our combat."
Of course this can mean everything or nothing and on this I have to agree with @Arracand:

[quote quote=876]With how the combat system is going to be in this game, I’m having some trouble trying to understand why there is this <strong>precarious balance between action-based combat and tab-targeting</strong>. In my opinion, there should be a set system that the combat should be based around, instead of going for the middle of the road. In addition, I feel that the combat system is trying to cater to both play-styles while pleasing neither. However, with how the combat system will be, I can see that there could be a happy median between both preferred combat systems. I can visualize some limited tab-targeting abilities for ranged classes, and perhaps support classes (i.e., Healers and the like).
So my questions are:
– What are your plans for the combat system?
– Will there a definitive combat system, or will it try to balance both?
[/quote]

Again combat is one the most important features, if not the most, in a mmo imo so I'd like to start discussing with the community about this as soon and early as possible.
Now I'd like to have your opinions wating for more detailed informations (btw if I have missed some news let me know here as well thx!).

Cheers
Khan
«1

Comments

  • Options
    This game is being designed with a traditional tab targetting system. More akin to Archeage/WoW/Rift and nothing like TERA, BDO, or B&S.
  • Options
    I hope they will use a free camera movement (like in FPS games, TERA, B&S,...) and not thr RMB-camera-carpal-tunnel-inducing-syndrome that there is in Archeage, Wildstar, etc...

    Also I'd like to see active evades, block, parries and not just random number generated ones.

    The traditional tab targeting is a legacy of the past when was basically the only viable option.

    In 2017 we should see a more intelligent system, aim assists features, lock on skills maybe and the combat should feel "alive" and responsive, a combat where reflexes and player skills can show.

    Making a game with an amazing world, seasons, evolved AIs and keeping the combat more than a decade old is such a waste imo.

    I know is very early but I'd like to hear more and discuss more about this.
    It kind of worries me when a community is overrun by echo chamber people, used to a system, that shut off any possible discussion with: "the combat is this, deal with it".
  • Options
    Don't mind against active block, parry, dodge, BUT i realy like classical passive bonuses, especially when some classes could be oriented in defence direction(exept shield/plate armor) like rogue, monk, mb. warrior with def. spec. or some sort of acrobat ;) etc. . maybe in hybrid defence system such classes also could spend less relevant resources on def. movements.
  • Options
    I personally like both types of games. I Enjoy a game with a good Action Combat.. will admit that BDO has some of the best combat i've ever seen in an MMO. However... I personally think they went and messed it up with how fast characters move around.. its just ridiculous seeing bladers dash everywhere and sorceress teleport non stop... To me, that made the combat extremely annoying.

    In my honest opinion, the great action combat seen in BDO gets destroyed by the fact that Gear trumps any skill you have. They might as well have just made it Tab targetting since it doesn't matter how good you are at moving and using this amazing combat system. If your gear is one tier lower than your opponent.. you are dead. Action combat makes sense in games where Gear is not the be all end all. like in FPS games where there is usually no gear.

    Sometimes, MMORPGs are about character progression and finding that next best piece of loot to become more powerful. You want players who dedicated time in the game to have an advantage because they've explored a lot of content. Action Combat vs Tab target is two different styles. I wouldn't say that Tab target is out dated. Some of the most popular MMOs are still Tab Target MMOs like WoW and FFXIV. Sure, ESO is popular too, and it has an action combat system. But isn't it ironic that the biggest complaint ppl have about ESO is how clunky and bad its combat feels? It's still doing well enough though, but not because of its action combat.. but because of how good the stories and quests are, and how immersive the world is.

    Archeage was tab target. but holy hell was that combat exciting and fast paced! (without having players teleport everywhere like BDO). If they can replicate that kind of tab target combat in AoC, I will be happy as heck. And if they can go one step further and add dodge rolling mechanic like GW2 or even push that further and add some kind of active shield block / stance, I will shit my pants. but ultimately.. I'll be happy with another exciting fast paced tab target combat like ArcheAge had.
  • Options
    I think it's not so cut-and-dried and really depends very much on the design of the rest of the game!

    In my opinion, every MMO that has done an action combat system seems to end up very twitchy and spammy... non-tactical, and void of any interdependency with other players.

    I'm not against action/skill based combat, but would like to see it more in the vein of a Dark Souls, Shadow of Mordor, Arkham, etc.

    I'm also just fine with rules-based combat, true to the origins of RPG gaming. Stats that influence the outcome more than "twitch".

    But I'm anxious to see what Steven and his team have in mind... !
  • Options
    A little disclaimer: I don't have much knowledge in game design and english is not my native language.

    [quote quote=2622]Don’t mind against active block, parry, dodge, BUT i realy like classical passive bonuses, especially when some classes could be oriented in defence direction(exept shield/plate armor) like rogue, monk, mb. warrior with def. spec. or some sort of acrobat ? etc. . maybe in hybrid defence system such classes also could spend less relevant resources on def. movements.
    [/quote]

    I think that passive bonuses to get a pseudo RNG dodges and block are needed only if you can not avoid an attack just by moving away from the area of the attack.
    Those combat mechanics are tightly tied to other game desing aspects like mobs and bosses AI, attack patterns, etc..

    Action combat in PvE works really well if all attacks have some kind of combat telegraphs (hidden or shown) so positioning, Boss mechanics knowledge and team play become the main focus. Being able to actively time your dodges and parries make the combat way more engaging.

    Of course if mobs have some kind of base auto-attack or attack that can not be avoided by simply moving out of trajectory (like I have seen in FFXIV where some mobs where damaging you even when you where behind them) passive bonusses become a necessity.

    [quote quote=2630]I personally like both types of games. I Enjoy a game with a good Action Combat.. will admit that BDO has some of the best combat i’ve ever seen in an MMO. However… I personally think they went and messed it up with how fast characters move around.. its just ridiculous seeing bladers dash everywhere and sorceress teleport non stop… To me, that made the combat extremely annoying.
    [/quote]

    That's something I have noticed as well and I agree with when action combat become too much "scenographic" with excessively flamboyant animations (typical I have to say of eastern MMOS).

    [quote quote=2630] In my honest opinion, the great action combat seen in BDO gets destroyed by the fact that Gear trumps any skill you have. They might as well have just made it Tab targetting since it doesn’t matter how good you are at moving and using this amazing combat system. If your gear is one tier lower than your opponent.. you are dead. Action combat makes sense in games where Gear is not the be all end all. like in FPS games where there is usually no gear.
    [/quote]

    This is something than need to be considered as well. An idea can be adding weapon collision and weapon and armors durability and strenght, different types of resistances (like penetration, blunt, cut, fire, ice, etc..) this will also add diversification in character progression and customizaton, will aslo add the need to strategize, etc..
    Weapons and armors may somehow progress, up to a limit, with you.

    [quote quote=2630]Sometimes, MMORPGs are about character progression and finding that next best piece of loot to become more powerful. You want players who dedicated time in the game to have an advantage because they’ve explored a lot of content. Action Combat vs Tab target is two different styles. I wouldn’t say that Tab target is out dated. Some of the most popular MMOs are still Tab Target MMOs like WoW and FFXIV. Sure, ESO is popular too, and it has an action combat system. But isn’t it ironic that the biggest complaint ppl have about ESO is how clunky and bad its combat feels? It’s still doing well enough though, but not because of its action combat.. but because of how good the stories and quests are, and how immersive the world is.
    [/quote]

    WoW, FFXIV, ESO are, statistically speaking, outliers. They are backed up by companies that were already huge and with a popular franchises backing up the mmos so you shouldn't really consider them.

    [quote quote=2630]Archeage was tab target. but holy hell was that combat exciting and fast paced! (without having players teleport everywhere like BDO). If they can replicate that kind of tab target combat in AoC, I will be happy as heck. And if they can go one step further and add dodge rolling mechanic like GW2 or even push that further and add some kind of active shield block / stance, I will shit my pants. but ultimately.. I’ll be happy with another exciting fast paced tab target combat like ArcheAge had.
    [/quote]

    That's true, Archeage had an interesting class and combat system. The thing that I really hated was the RMB hold to move the view and watch around, carpal tunnel syndrome inducing! Typical of older mmos, this is a really big NO for me, I want to move the mouse and look around without the need to hold any key.
    Wildstar had the same RMBhold-camera but thanks god someone made addons to fix that.

    <strong>This also make me think that the dichotomy is not between tab targeting and action combat but more like between tab targeting vs free aim or passive bonuses vs active skills, etc..
    All of those aspects of the combat system should be considered and discussed separatly</strong> cause (bear with me for using this) there are many shades of gray in between.

    I however still believe that the classic tab targeting should be avoided and instead make use of all those functions like aim assist or lock on target that will improve a free aim experience. Make use of combat telegraphs and in general look around for all those games that had succes having the courage to make something different.
  • Options
    Well, yep. with classical parry/dodge/block/deflection players visually get a hit, but he does not count-they works like procs or some sort of safe rolls (just thrown the dice and probability calculated). Traditional RPGs rules are more about numbers, not reflexes(u know it already). Many latest rpgs looks like action or hybrids (It's like bring other flavors to the milk, some fit and others - not really), if talks about combat alleast. In action style combat usually no need for a large assortment of skills used during the battle, this trend could lead to a simplification, or monotonous boring fights, even if those fights looks more dynamic (I usually fall asleep within half an hour of the TESO game ). It's my opinion.
    Some people likes combat in Newerwinter series or Tyranny , others prefers Witcher etc. How many people, so many preferences (sometimes they match, sometimes not).
  • Options
    Well i do realy like active combat. Like Tera.

    When you can roll around or doge with abilitys combat feels very active.

    It opens also a window for ppl to be abel to win a fight even if you got lower gear or way lower HP.

    Ofc i understand that some other ppl like more the traditional system like in WoW or ff14.

    A good solution would be to doge with skills. So you dont need to press 2 times D or something and if you see an incomming atack you can either CC or doge with a certain skill. (maybe it would work if they would design classes around that. So one got more doge abilitys whiele the other maybe has some CC.

    I would need to be would thought actually. ^^
  • Options
    [quote quote=2645]That’s true, Archeage had an interesting class and combat system. The thing that I really hated was the RMB hold to move the view and watch around, carpal tunnel syndrome inducing! Typical of older mmos, this is a really big NO for me, I want to move the mouse and look around without the need to hold any key.
    Wildstar had the same RMBhold-camera but thanks god someone made addons to fix that.[/quote]

    I hear ya,
    problem is with tab target games, you have the mouse cursor which is what moves around when you move the mouse. And many players need this mouse cursor to select things like a specific target when there's quite a few mobs and you don't want to tab target through all of them to select the one you want. Or simply to select an NPC ect ect.

    Maybe they could add an option where basically you could play the game traditional style with the mouse cursor which means you need to right click to turn your camera.. and then the option to play where the mouse cursor is not visible/moving unless you right click on the mouse.. or something.. and basically just moving the mouse turns your character without the need of right clicking.. and if you wanna select something with the cursor, then you can hold the right click to make the cursor appear. so.. kinda like a mode where it's reverse traditional.
  • Options
    I'm of the crowd that likes both full action and tab target and the in between. With that said I like my tab target games to feel pretty action like. I think if AoC can take inspiration from the 3 games with my favorite combat, Archeage, Black Desert, and GW2, then there is no doubt the combat will be great.

    I'm glad we are having this conversation though because I think a lot of the mmo developers out there don't realize how important good combat is for mmo players. I dunno about others but WoW was my first mmo and it spoiled me by just *feeling* right and a mass amount of mmos came out that I tried and all of them felt clunky and ultimately that's what kept me coming back to WoW.

    Obviously today there is quite a few games without clunky controls and decent to great combat so it's a little different but people still want new MMOs for new reasons that mmos with said great combat don't fulfill. I feel like a great number of people are looking at these new mmos in development and are saying "wow great ideas this can be a great game but please make the combat good"

    I'm currently playing BDO and GW2 and to be honest there is a lot I don't like about both of them but they have great combat and for gw2 its the only reason I'm sticking around to play it and for BDO which I just started... it's the only reason I even gave it a try in the first place.
  • Options
    The biggest Problem I see with combat control and the combat system is the limitation in hardware. Keyboard and mouse are very limited ways of controlling characters. And don't let me start on controller, even worse. Depending on the amount of Skills we can use in combat you need to learn and remember finger and hand breaking combinations and need to be able to stay on the move when you have active blocking and dodging.
    To be honest I think they would need to create alternative controller to the keyboard (not the mouse) for the PC to advance combat.
  • Options
    My 2 cents...

    I always main a healer, alt some ranged dps (usually magic type). So for me the tab targeting is where its at. I want to be able to hang back some, lock onto the exact ally I want to heal and apply that heal. Not cast some spell and hope it hits the guy I want. That said I completely realize some classes lend themselves to more action oriented combat/dodge maneuvers. I also realize that this game is an MMO. Those first 2 letters are very important, if a game doesnt appeal to a decently wide variety of players then it turns into an online single player game as many MMOs are nowadays. I dont care for 'hybrid' systems but if there was the ability to choose your targeting system I think that would be great. Just getting the NPCs to react accordingly might prove a problem.
  • Options
    [quote quote=2956]The biggest Problem I see with combat control and the combat system is the limitation in hardware. Keyboard and mouse are very limited ways of controlling characters. And don’t let me start on controller, even worse. Depending on the amount of Skills we can use in combat you need to learn and remember finger and hand breaking combinations and need to be able to stay on the move when you have active blocking and dodging.
    To be honest I think they would need to create alternative controller to the keyboard (not the mouse) for the PC to advance combat.

    [/quote]
    No they are not, u just need to have ctrl and shift variatons for all buttons. When i was playing wow i used 70+ different keybinds slightly varying on my class and pvp format i was playing.

    And i agree totally with op op action combat makes for much more skillfull gameplay. Its much more competitive and engaging if instead of some rng block or dodge you have to actually move out of the line of projectile with of abilities or use another ability at exctact right time to counter it. They sayd the game will be mix between action combat and tab targeting,
  • Options
    Why can't these devs just stop trying to be like everything else?! THAT'S WHY NO ONE'S PLAYING THEIR GAMES!!! COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!! No more tab targeting! Or any form of targeting! Implement free cameras! Become an actual ACTION game! Make spellcasting more interesting than just touching a button! ADD AIMING!!! AND FFS MAKE QUESTING MORE INTERESTING THAN A TEXT BOX OR LINE OF UNINTERESTING SPEECH BY REALLY BAD VOICE ACTORS!!!!!! ARGH I'M SO TIRED OF PLAYING THE SAME MMO'S EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    But I know who pays the bills... To poorly quote Dallas Dickenson (formerly lead designer on swtor in 2012): "If we break 300,000 concurrent subscribers, we'll break even and I'll be happy {sic}." That doesn't sound like a company that wants to beat WoW. That sounds like someone who's greedy and wants to appease shareholders with the status quo. I hate WoW. I can't stand the fact that everyone thinks they have to BE wow in order to break into their market. Ugh..... w/e, this all falls on deaf ears anyways.

    Aight, I'll check back on this game in a couple years. If it looks like WoW, I'm out.

    Edit: I'm so sorry. After reading this, it sounded a lot harsher than I intended it to. But I still feel like it should have been said. I will await a response, if any deem it worthwhile.
  • Options
    @Archicronin
    Damn dude chill, I agree most of the way, but damn :/

    Problem is that WoW caters to a large playerbase cause its easy to get into, and theres alot to do once you get to the late game. Somehow breaking that "meta" would be hard, thats why they might wanna implement tabbing to some degree. But as I understand it, its not gonna purely that, theres gonna be other aspects too. Hopefully we get the long awaited combat vid soon.
  • Options
    [quote quote=3368]Why can’t these devs just stop trying to be like everything else?! THAT’S WHY NO ONE’S PLAYING THEIR GAMES!!! COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!! No more tab targeting! Or any form of targeting! Implement free cameras! Become an actual ACTION game! Make spellcasting more interesting than just touching a button! ADD AIMING!!! AND FFS MAKE QUESTING MORE INTERESTING THAN A TEXT BOX OR LINE OF UNINTERESTING SPEECH BY REALLY BAD VOICE ACTORS!!!!!! ARGH I’M SO TIRED OF PLAYING THE SAME MMO’S EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    But I know who pays the bills… To poorly quote Dallas Dickenson (formerly lead designer on swtor in 2012): “If we break 300,000 concurrent subscribers, we’ll break even and I’ll be happy {sic}.” That doesn’t sound like a company that wants to beat WoW. That sounds like someone who’s greedy and wants to appease shareholders with the status quo. I hate WoW. I can’t stand the fact that everyone thinks they have to BE wow in order to break into their market. Ugh….. w/e, this all falls on deaf ears anyways.

    Aight, I’ll check back on this game in a couple years. If it looks like WoW, I’m out.

    Edit: I’m so sorry. After reading this, it sounded a lot harsher than I intended it to. But I still feel like it should have been said. I will await a response, if any deem it worthwhile.

    [/quote]

    That's harsh xD

    - You have to think about the fact that some people actually prefer tab targeting, and that you can alter it to make it more exciting and fun. I too cater more to action based combat, much similar to BDO, but it is the way it is. The developers have decided to make it a mixture between the two, leaning more towards tab targeting and from the teasers we've gotten so far, it looks really good. I understand how hard the decision can be from a developers point of view, because the commuity is currently split between the two different playstyles and they had to chose. We'll have to wait and see how the style they've gone with caters to different players and how the different classes will end up playing.
  • Options
    @OP...

    The problem with manual aiming and parry block is pretty simple,it turns a game into a 100% solo game and we already have tons of those out there.
    If you can simply block every attack,why would you need any healing or support?This is why statistical ideas just work better ,because it uses a % rng base to determine block/parry,so then you NEED support which is something this genre badly needs is REAL grouping.
    W/o mentioning games,what i have seen done but could be improved is of course your abilities,a shield block.The game i used it in imo had too long a timer,it was 5 minutes per use,i think more long the lines of 1-2 minutes timer.

    However ,once again we NEED to always remember the GROUPING aspect,any design you incorporate can severely dumb down content.Example,imagine if your entire group could STUN the mob in some fashion,then the fight would be way too easy.The BAD design i have seen every single developer use is they just make Bosses immune to all those abilities you enjoy in the game and to me that is bad design.Instead utilize proper timers so players have to make wise choices when to use their special abilities.
  • Options
    [quote quote=2645]A little disclaimer: I don’t have much knowledge in game design and english is not my native language.

    <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/#post-2622" rel="nofollow">Vorch21 wrote:</a></div>
    Don’t mind against active block, parry, dodge, BUT i realy like classical passive bonuses, especially when some classes could be oriented in defence direction(exept shield/plate armor) like rogue, monk, mb. warrior with def. spec. or some sort of acrobat <img alt="?" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2/svg/1f609.svg" /> etc. . maybe in hybrid defence system such classes also could spend less relevant resources on def. movements.

    </blockquote>
    I think that passive bonuses to get a pseudo RNG dodges and block are needed only if you can not avoid an attack just by moving away from the area of the attack.
    Those combat mechanics are tightly tied to other game desing aspects like mobs and bosses AI, attack patterns, etc..

    Action combat in PvE works really well if all attacks have some kind of combat telegraphs (hidden or shown) so positioning, Boss mechanics knowledge and team play become the main focus. Being able to actively time your dodges and parries make the combat way more engaging.

    Of course if mobs have some kind of base auto-attack or attack that can not be avoided by simply moving out of trajectory (like I have seen in FFXIV where some mobs where damaging you even when you where behind them) passive bonusses become a necessity.

    <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/#post-2630" rel="nofollow">Darshx1 wrote:</a></div>
    I personally like both types of games. I Enjoy a game with a good Action Combat.. will admit that BDO has some of the best combat i’ve ever seen in an MMO. However… I personally think they went and messed it up with how fast characters move around.. its just ridiculous seeing bladers dash everywhere and sorceress teleport non stop… To me, that made the combat extremely annoying.

    </blockquote>
    That’s something I have noticed as well and I agree with when action combat become too much “scenographic” with excessively flamboyant animations (typical I have to say of eastern MMOS).

    <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/#post-2630" rel="nofollow">Darshx1 wrote:</a></div>
    In my honest opinion, the great action combat seen in BDO gets destroyed by the fact that Gear trumps any skill you have. They might as well have just made it Tab targetting since it doesn’t matter how good you are at moving and using this amazing combat system. If your gear is one tier lower than your opponent.. you are dead. Action combat makes sense in games where Gear is not the be all end all. like in FPS games where there is usually no gear.

    </blockquote>
    This is something than need to be considered as well. An idea can be adding weapon collision and weapon and armors durability and strenght, different types of resistances (like penetration, blunt, cut, fire, ice, etc..) this will also add diversification in character progression and customizaton, will aslo add the need to strategize, etc..
    Weapons and armors may somehow progress, up to a limit, with you.

    <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/#post-2630" rel="nofollow">Darshx1 wrote:</a></div>
    Sometimes, MMORPGs are about character progression and finding that next best piece of loot to become more powerful. You want players who dedicated time in the game to have an advantage because they’ve explored a lot of content. Action Combat vs Tab target is two different styles. I wouldn’t say that Tab target is out dated. Some of the most popular MMOs are still Tab Target MMOs like WoW and FFXIV. Sure, ESO is popular too, and it has an action combat system. But isn’t it ironic that the biggest complaint ppl have about ESO is how clunky and bad its combat feels? It’s still doing well enough though, but not because of its action combat.. but because of how good the stories and quests are, and how immersive the world is.

    </blockquote>
    WoW, FFXIV, ESO are, statistically speaking, outliers. They are backed up by companies that were already huge and with a popular franchises backing up the mmos so you shouldn’t really consider them.

    <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/#post-2630" rel="nofollow">Darshx1 wrote:</a></div>
    Archeage was tab target. but holy hell was that combat exciting and fast paced! (without having players teleport everywhere like BDO). If they can replicate that kind of tab target combat in AoC, I will be happy as heck. And if they can go one step further and add dodge rolling mechanic like GW2 or even push that further and add some kind of active shield block / stance, I will shit my pants. but ultimately.. I’ll be happy with another exciting fast paced tab target combat like ArcheAge had.

    </blockquote>
    That’s true, Archeage had an interesting class and combat system. The thing that I really hated was the RMB hold to move the view and watch around, carpal tunnel syndrome inducing! Typical of older mmos, this is a really big NO for me, I want to move the mouse and look around without the need to hold any key.
    Wildstar had the same RMBhold-camera but thanks god someone made addons to fix that.

    <strong>This also make me think that the dichotomy is not between tab targeting and action combat but more like between tab targeting vs free aim or passive bonuses vs active skills, etc..
    All of those aspects of the combat system should be considered and discussed separatly</strong> cause (bear with me for using this) there are many shades of gray in between.

    I however still believe that the classic tab targeting should be avoided and instead make use of all those functions like aim assist or lock on target that will improve a free aim experience. Make use of combat telegraphs and in general look around for all those games that had succes having the courage to make something different.

    [/quote]

    I completely agree on these points. The main discussion is for me about tab targeting vs free aiming targeting and control schemes. Free aiming is just much easier and more fluid to play than tab targeting. It doesn't have to mean targeting is hard - just look at games like BDO, ESO, or TERA and they're all very easy to aim, with big skills with big hitboxes, or soft targeted and lock on skills. It even allows ranged classes like healers or mages to target exactly who they want even if it's a single target skill. It just makes it easier and more fun to play. I love playing healers so I understand the need to target only the person you want, as well as the desire to switch between targets easily - but if you make it a non-target game like the above games, then there's no targeting "switching", but merely aiming abilities at the person or mob you want.

    It's also fun for people to have some measure of control over their character, so dodges and block/parry skills are important. But that doesn't mean they can avoid everything. Those abilities have cooldowns or resource costs so they're used strategically. Just take a look at TERA for some great example of how healing, buffing, CC, debuffing, tanking, are all important and necessary. People are going to get hit and they're going to need tanks and healers to help them. I'm not advocating for a GW2 style "every man for himself". I absolutely LOVE proper role based gameplay - I'm a healer/supporter and I want to be needed.


    The game is looking great so far, but I'd love to see some minor adjustments so that we get a TERA style "free aiming" system. For old farts like us it's just more fun and easier on our hands. When I spend 8 hours a day at work on a computer, I need a game that's tendon-friendly. ;) And on that note as well, free aiming combat doesn't have to be fast, either. In fact I'd prefer it wasn't too fast. Speedy enough to be fun, but not so much that it's hard on the hands, or problematic for lag, or hard for some players to react fast enough, etc.

    Anyway that's my two cents. :) The game looks great based on what I've seen in the combat test video, and I love everything I've read so far about what they're going to do. This is really my only nitpick and I know it's one a lot of other people will have as well. I firmly believe that it's something even tab target players can enjoy, because it solves the problems they have - easy to target, can target individual players, and not too fast. It's really not that dissimilar from a tab target game, aside from a different aiming system (which obviously requires some different skill design mechanics and skill hitboxes).
  • Options
    Out of all the MMOs I have played, I can say that I definitely prefer action combat oriented games. Out of the action combat types, Tera is definitely my favorite. Blade and Soul was good too... But honestly speaking, the downfall for me in Blade and Soul was the fact that there were skills that only opened up after certain other skills were used. At times, the window for using the secondary skill was either: A. too short or B. when pressed, activated a completely different skill than the one intended. BDO is very nice, but for those who aren't as into fighting/combo attack oriented games, it really is terrible. I have absolutely no ability to have fun with the combat in that game, due to the fact that they go above and beyond to make everything into a combo type attack. I enjoy the game for other features though. As for Revelations... I am absolutely disgusted by it. It is a VERY good example of what NOT to do. Trying to accommodate tab-target players in a game that also features "action combat" that is promoted to be similar to B&S and Tera... did not go well. You are able to on action-mode: lock on to a target, turn the camera 180 degrees away, and still be firing attacks that 100% hit the target. It feels too easy/catering to the tab-target players.

    Part of why B&S doesn't appeal to me as much as Tera, is due to the soft lock-ons. Also to mention, B&S also tried to cater towards a somewhat more old school style of play. It offers a combat mode that lets you use wow-style movement. Mind you, B&S is unlike Revelations due to it catering more towards the action combat players, rather than the tab target. I don't think the game is actually very playable with the old school combat option turned on...

    That being said. If this game ever decides on a type of combat to implement, please just stick to either: tab target or action combat.
    Not both. It doesn't work very well.
    ---
    P.S. I am much more likely to enjoy the game if it has action combat... But tab target is workable... I guess. (If it has controller support. Only reason I was ever able to enjoy FFXIV is cause I played it with controller.)
  • Options
    Agreed Revelations' control scheme was terrible and that's something I've seen a lot of Chinese games try to do. They make traditional tab targeting but try to offer 3 control schemes - standard tab targeting, point and click, and "action" camera. The action camera fails horribly and feels terrible when your combat isn't designed completely around that idea.

    Blade and Soul wasn't much better. It's still the same tab target combat, but with more actiony skills and I agree that the combo attacks were not fun. The window to use them was far too short but I also prefer having all my abilities on my bar to use when I need them. But the Blade and Soul hard lock on combat was so limiting.

    I don't want it auto targeting things. That actually makes combat harder. The reason why the freedom of a TERA style system is so fun is because the game doesn't try to force me to target players or mobs I don't want to hit. It let's me choose via free but easy aiming with skills that are either easy to hit, or that allow me to "paint" the target and choose who I want to lock on to and who I don't (but sometimes TERA's skills would allow you to single target "paint" three targets, essentially hitting a single target skill onto three people or mobs, so that also made aiming in blobs easier when healing or damaging). Hopefully they can find an equally freeing system here. Forced auto targeting of any way always fails.
  • Options
    As with the holy trinity discussion of roles, I think one of the main points that should be pointed out, not just graced is:
    It caters to different playstyles.
    A "tabtarget-passive block" tank that doesn't have to watch for every single animation a Boss makes, is more relaxed and laid back, a different group of people enjoy this more than the fast paced tripple click counter wombo.
    There is no superior playstyle, just personal preferences. In my opinion that is the biggest issue in discussions like this. Action combat is not superior to tab targeting, it's a personal preference in playstyles.
    I am curious to how we will see several playstyles options presented in the game.
  • Options
    [quote quote=3921]
    There is no superior playstyle, just personal preferences.
    [/quote]
    <img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif" alt="Thank you" />

    Not that people have been too bad with "superior playstyle" ;) People just like different things, that ofc. doesnt mean that you shouldn't please as many people as possible. Either by having different playstyles or making some new system that you hope alot of people will enjoy :)
  • Options
    this is very simple for me, i don't care if it's tab targeting or aim reticle....if i can't push/hold a button and block an attack or shield an ally or dodge an incoming projectile more than once every 10s it will be a no go for me. TAB targeting only exists because of technological limitations of the time when mmos started. those limitations don't really apply anymore. the trick is finding the right pace for such mechanics. BDO is an example of taking it to far, every class is way to fast, even the slow ones lol. A combat system in this state turns into rng CC button spamming carpal tunnel inducing migranes and for me (an advanced age gamer at this point), i can only play these types of games about 30 min to an hour then i have to go do something else. TERA was a great example of combat minus the stacking of attack speed which after a certain point...you guessed it, turned it into a button spamming CC nightmare once again.

    TLDR: tab targeting or not i wanna be able to active block and dodge lol. Otherwise i fell disconnected from the combat and might as well go play some DnD or a card game if it's gonna be a dice roll anyways.
  • Options
    I think Camelot Unchained is striving for a mix where you can choose to make an ability tab-target with the trade off of the ability being less effective, the idea being aimed abilities have a risk of missing so they deserve to be more effective.

    I think we have been told that we choose abilities(and augmentations) to create our builds and the fact they say that combat will be a mix, allowing us to choose between tab-target and aimed abilities might be the plan.

    Most MMOs focus on mid to short range battles were people are usually fighting while within ~30m of each other but the most fun i have had in a MMO siege was in darkfall where we had long range, aimed projectile spells/abilities. The long range fights and being forced to hide behind cover while being bombarded was the closest any game has ever come to making me feel like i was being sieged/seiging. Darkfall was far from a perfect game but the distance abilities traveled, the long range battles they allowed, and how you used walls/terrain to defend yourself was great.

    Long range abilities might not be best for this game because of how many classes look close combat focused but i still wanted to put this out there.
  • Options
    It does not matter what you Action Combat players want at this time. They are going Tab Targeting. The developers made up their minds and thats the end of it. I am tried of people flooding the forms with people crying that they cannot get what they want. You know what. I want ArcheAge to have a P2P only server no cash shop. Well it does not happen. So I just dont play the game. When you try to make everyone happy is when the game just becomes a cluster fuck.

    I also hate to tell you this not 1 Action Combat game has ever been able to start as a sub based game and keep as a sub based game. WHY because action based combat takes a lot of reflexes. I know I been playing games since the 1980s. I played just about every MMO Out there and I can tell you the majority of people will only play tab targeting games. Why do you think the 2 most populated MMORPGs are still WOW and FFXIV and SWTOR is also still popular. ESO and Tera are popular but they are not as populated as some like to believe. Add that to the lack of Depth these games give you. you got what 10 buttons to use. Yea not really good combat because you can mash buttons and aim. Hell its just as bad as today's tab targeting which you stand in 1 spot and do rotation after rotation.

    You would be better with Tab Targeting with a wide array of spells and abilities that you are not stuck in 1 place while using them. You would make the game more fluid. O and BTW the target audience is not the younger generation MMORPG player. Its guys like me who grow up on Tab targeting, that love Subscription MMOs and dont need a Automated Group Finder tool to get stuff done. Yes people like me cannot deal with Action Combat, and yes I played ESO and can only play ESO for an hour before my wrist is killing me from repetitive twitch game play. Give me a tab target game where I do not have to face the target and I can attack while running. Basically SWG like combat which was not static and anything but WOW tab targeting.
  • Options
    Tab targeting does not exclude action combat. The opposite from tab target is free aiming, don't mix that up.

    Beside it would be nice if you tuned down your tone a bit, we are free to discuss any topic, wishes and dreams here. No need to get all cranky and foulmouthed.
  • Options
    [quote quote=4076]Tab targeting does not exclude action combat. The opposite from tab target is free aiming, don’t mix that up.

    Beside it would be nice if you tuned down your tone a bit, we are free to discuss any topic, wishes and dreams here. No need to get all cranky and foulmouthed.

    [/quote]

    You can complain about me all you want. The fact remains the same topics end up in every god dam game over and over again. Action Combat, F2P/P2W/B2P. You know what. I think the developers need to put their foot down and tell people to shut up this is what we are doing stop talking about changing what we want. If you dont like it go play another game. I dont go to Terra and bitch endlessly because I want Tab Target. I dont go to Neverwinter and bitch its F2P. Nope I just dont play those games.

    I am not sorry that I am tired of hearing and reading garbage on the forms that should be not talked about at all. Let's talk about constructive things like how to make PVP enjoyable like large battles that are not Zerg Fest. Or how to make PVE fun for people. What about Lore and content.

    But no we have people that think WE NEED TO TALK FREELY about what the developers already decided on. I honestly am tired of people like you ruining every game because developers end up thinking o well these people on the forum want this. Yet I have 2 dozen friends that are keeping an eye on this game, will NEVER post on a forum for any game or on MMORPG.com and if the game changes what it is going to do they just will not play it. Yet the minority on the forums think I am keeping them from freely talking. Nope I am saying P2P and tab target are already the direction of this game. Its also the direction not to make this another WOW game with raiding being the entire focus of the game, it will be open world content PVP and PVE as well as crafting. These are topics that do not need to be discussed about changing. Lets talk about the content WITHIN these aspects of the game.

    My example with Tab Targeting is having very few spells as a mage that I need to stand still to cast. People need to stop talking about overhauling what is already the direction of this game. Just like I am not going to COE and bitching endlessly about their pay for each life monetization design. Yea I said I dont like it I am not going to play this game when asked, but I am not endlessly trying to get them to change what they want to do.

    I am tired of games becoming a pile because we try to make everyone happy. This needs to stop because it caused the last 10 years of MMORPGs to become a waste land of crap. You dont like what I say, Tough. The Truth is that needs to end and people need to accept not every game is going to be design for them in mind.
  • Options
    [quote quote=4097]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/page/2/#post-4076" rel="nofollow">Grisu wrote:</a></div>
    Tab targeting does not exclude action combat. The opposite from tab target is free aiming, don’t mix that up.

    Beside it would be nice if you tuned down your tone a bit, we are free to discuss any topic, wishes and dreams here. No need to get all cranky and foulmouthed.

    </blockquote>
    You can complain about me all you want. The fact remains the same topics end up in every god dam game over and over again. Action Combat, F2P/P2W/B2P. You know what. I think the developers need to put their foot down and tell people to shut up this is what we are doing stop talking about changing what we want. If you dont like it go play another game. I dont go to Terra and bitch endlessly because I want Tab Target. I dont go to Neverwinter and bitch its F2P. Nope I just dont play those games.

    I am not sorry that I am tired of hearing and reading garbage on the forms that should be not talked about at all. Let’s talk about constructive things like how to make PVP enjoyable like large battles that are not Zerg Fest. Or how to make PVE fun for people. What about Lore and content.

    But no we have people that think WE NEED TO TALK FREELY about what the developers already decided on. I honestly am tired of people like you ruining every game because developers end up thinking o well these people on the forum want this. Yet I have 2 dozen friends that are keeping an eye on this game, will NEVER post on a forum for any game or on MMORPG.com and if the game changes what it is going to do they just will not play it. Yet the minority on the forums think I am keeping them from freely talking. Nope I am saying P2P and tab target are already the direction of this game. Its also the direction not to make this another WOW game with raiding being the entire focus of the game, it will be open world content PVP and PVE as well as crafting. These are topics that do not need to be discussed about changing. Lets talk about the content WITHIN these aspects of the game.

    My example with Tab Targeting is having very few spells as a mage that I need to stand still to cast. People need to stop talking about overhauling what is already the direction of this game. Just like I am not going to COE and bitching endlessly about their pay for each life monetization design. Yea I said I dont like it I am not going to play this game when asked, but I am not endlessly trying to get them to change what they want to do.

    I am tired of games becoming a pile because we try to make everyone happy. This needs to stop because it caused the last 10 years of MMORPGs to become a waste land of crap. You dont like what I say, Tough. The Truth is that needs to end and people need to accept not every game is going to be design for them in mind.

    [/quote]

    TERA and Neverwinter are released games so it would make no sense to complain on design decisions. But for a game in an early pre-Alpha state of development, feedback is exactly what they need. For the game to be a success, they need interested players to tell them what they like and what they don't like. It's how every game in development works when they open their development process to feedback. Even some games once they enter beta change things. If your friends have opinions they're not sharing, that's their fault. You can't complain because other people are willing to share their thoughts and your friends aren't.

    From what I can tell both on various places on these forums, as well as other places such as the Discord and /r/MMORPG, a lot of people want action combat. You and maybe one other person want tab target. More games offer versions of action combat and more players total play those games. The only newer game with tab target that is successful is FFXIV, and people play that despite the combat. It's a polished themepark with a celebrated IP - that's why it's popular. People complain about it's combat constantly.

    I get that you like tab target, but you're in the minority. From what I can tell, the majority want a form of action combat and free aiming. It would behoove the devs here to accommodate those requests if they want this game to succeed.
  • Options
    [quote quote=4097]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/page/2/#post-4076" rel="nofollow">Grisu wrote:</a></div>
    Tab targeting does not exclude action combat. The opposite from tab target is free aiming, don’t mix that up.

    Beside it would be nice if you tuned down your tone a bit, we are free to discuss any topic, wishes and dreams here. No need to get all cranky and foulmouthed.

    </blockquote>
    You can complain about me all you want. The fact remains the same topics end up in every god dam game over and over again. Action Combat, F2P/P2W/B2P. You know what. I think the developers need to put their foot down and tell people to shut up this is what we are doing stop talking about changing what we want. If you dont like it go play another game. I dont go to Terra and bitch endlessly because I want Tab Target. I dont go to Neverwinter and bitch its F2P. Nope I just dont play those games.

    I am not sorry that I am tired of hearing and reading garbage on the forms that should be not talked about at all. Let’s talk about constructive things like how to make PVP enjoyable like large battles that are not Zerg Fest. Or how to make PVE fun for people. What about Lore and content.

    But no we have people that think WE NEED TO TALK FREELY about what the developers already decided on. I honestly am tired of people like you ruining every game because developers end up thinking o well these people on the forum want this. Yet I have 2 dozen friends that are keeping an eye on this game, will NEVER post on a forum for any game or on MMORPG.com and if the game changes what it is going to do they just will not play it. Yet the minority on the forums think I am keeping them from freely talking. Nope I am saying P2P and tab target are already the direction of this game. Its also the direction not to make this another WOW game with raiding being the entire focus of the game, it will be open world content PVP and PVE as well as crafting. These are topics that do not need to be discussed about changing. Lets talk about the content WITHIN these aspects of the game.

    My example with Tab Targeting is having very few spells as a mage that I need to stand still to cast. People need to stop talking about overhauling what is already the direction of this game. Just like I am not going to COE and bitching endlessly about their pay for each life monetization design. Yea I said I dont like it I am not going to play this game when asked, but I am not endlessly trying to get them to change what they want to do.

    I am tired of games becoming a pile because we try to make everyone happy. This needs to stop because it caused the last 10 years of MMORPGs to become a waste land of crap. You dont like what I say, Tough. The Truth is that needs to end and people need to accept not every game is going to be design for them in mind.

    [/quote]

    TERA and Neverwinter are released games so it would make no sense to complain on design decisions. But for a game in an early pre-Alpha state of development, feedback is exactly what they need. For the game to be a sucess, they need interested players to tell them what they like and what they don't like. It's how every game in development works when they open their development process to feedback. Even some games once they enter beta change things. If you're friends have opinions they're not sharing, that's their fault. You can't complain because other people are willing to share their thoughts and your friends aren't.

    From what I can tell both on various places on these forums, as well as other places such as the Discord and /r/MMORPG, a lot of people want action combat. You and maybe one other person want tab target. More games offer versions of action combat and more players total play those games. The only newer games with tab target is FFXIV, and people play that despite the combat. It's a polished themepark with a celebrated IP - that's why it's popular. People complain about it's combat constantly.

    I get that you like tab target, but you're in the minority. From what I can tell, the majority want a form of action combat and free aiming. It would behoove the devs here to accommodate those requests if they want this game to succeed.
  • Options
    [quote quote=4097]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-system/page/2/#post-4076" rel="nofollow">Grisu wrote:</a></div>
    Tab targeting does not exclude action combat. The opposite from tab target is free aiming, don’t mix that up.

    Beside it would be nice if you tuned down your tone a bit, we are free to discuss any topic, wishes and dreams here. No need to get all cranky and foulmouthed.

    </blockquote>
    You can complain about me all you want. The fact remains the same topics end up in every god dam game over and over again. Action Combat, F2P/P2W/B2P. You know what. I think the developers need to put their foot down and tell people to shut up this is what we are doing stop talking about changing what we want. If you dont like it go play another game. I dont go to Terra and bitch endlessly because I want Tab Target. I dont go to Neverwinter and bitch its F2P. Nope I just dont play those games.

    I am not sorry that I am tired of hearing and reading garbage on the forms that should be not talked about at all. Let’s talk about constructive things like how to make PVP enjoyable like large battles that are not Zerg Fest. Or how to make PVE fun for people. What about Lore and content.

    But no we have people that think WE NEED TO TALK FREELY about what the developers already decided on. I honestly am tired of people like you ruining every game because developers end up thinking o well these people on the forum want this. Yet I have 2 dozen friends that are keeping an eye on this game, will NEVER post on a forum for any game or on MMORPG.com and if the game changes what it is going to do they just will not play it. Yet the minority on the forums think I am keeping them from freely talking. Nope I am saying P2P and tab target are already the direction of this game. Its also the direction not to make this another WOW game with raiding being the entire focus of the game, it will be open world content PVP and PVE as well as crafting. These are topics that do not need to be discussed about changing. Lets talk about the content WITHIN these aspects of the game.

    My example with Tab Targeting is having very few spells as a mage that I need to stand still to cast. People need to stop talking about overhauling what is already the direction of this game. Just like I am not going to COE and bitching endlessly about their pay for each life monetization design. Yea I said I dont like it I am not going to play this game when asked, but I am not endlessly trying to get them to change what they want to do.

    I am tired of games becoming a pile because we try to make everyone happy. This needs to stop because it caused the last 10 years of MMORPGs to become a waste land of crap. You dont like what I say, Tough. The Truth is that needs to end and people need to accept not every game is going to be design for them in mind.

    [/quote]
    Edit: Trying again because my post isn't showing up...


    TERA and Neverwinter are released games so it would make no sense to complain on design decisions. But for a game in an early pre-Alpha state of development, feedback is exactly what they need. For the game to be a success, they need interested players to tell them what they like and what they don't like. It's how every game in development works when they open their development process to feedback. Even some games once they enter beta change things. If your friends have opinions they're not sharing, that's their fault. You can't complain because other people are willing to share their thoughts and your friends aren't.

    From what I can tell both on various places on these forums, as well as other places such as the Discord and /r/MMORPG, a lot of people want action combat. You and maybe one other person want tab target. More games offer versions of action combat and more players total play those games. The only newer games with tab target is FFXIV, and people play that despite the combat. It's a polished themepark with a celebrated IP - that's why it's popular. People complain about it's combat constantly.

    I get that you like tab target, but you're in the minority. From what I can tell, the majority want a form of action combat and free aiming. It would behoove the devs here to accommodate those requests if they want this game to succeed.
Sign In or Register to comment.