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Tanking

Two of my favorite things to do in mmo's or in multiplayer games in general are tanking and supporting. I just enjoy protecting party members or others but taking damage or but throwing them a heal or two. Of course that's the job of a tank in a PVE party but I also like PVP. The thing is, from my experience, people do not like tanks in PVP. Or at least people call it being tanky, which i like. Though being tanky means that you are most likely not going to have much attack ( most would like an dps over a tank when it comes to PVP). Unlike in PVE, you can't make players focus on you in PVP.

That brings me to something that i would think would be cool in-game for the tank skills. <put's tinfoil hat on> I think it would be awesome for the tank's main aggro skill to also affect players. Like a short debuff that keeps the affected from targeting anything else until the debuff wears off.

Not sure if that would work with the hybrid tap-target system but it's just a thought i had>

Comments

  • I like the idea. I can recall certain skills in other games simply forcing the targeting of the UI and player to go onto whoever placed the "taunt" skill. I am sure it would not be too difficult to come up with something equally pressing. I also am typically a tank in PvP and PvE, so I'd be interested in seeing a mechanic like that. If not, then perhaps hitboxes could change, or you could try convincing your battle mates to strafe behind you when they are targetted, forcing the other player to try and move around to reacquire their earlier target.
  • In EQ 2 players - tanks (berserker/paladin/guardian/brawlers etc.) can taunt (single and AOE) other characters(as some tactic classes like bards , assasins can use "detaunt" abilities-remove target from yourself). +Taunt(in my opinion) should have some debuf effect on offencive skills (ex. accuracy) like "provoke" skill in some Dn'D games.
  • I think a tank in a PvP setting should be more about support and CC than anything else.

    Some ways to make tanks viable in PvP:
    - a taunt in pvp could stun (for a very short time) enemies who attack anyone else as long as they have the taunt-debuff
    - a protective aura in an area behind the tank
    - path blocking abilities like a literal shield wall with other tanks (as seen in the mage video)
    - a buff for a single healer that increases healing received from that healer
    - abilities that redirect all incoming damage to the tank for a short duration (as single target buffs or area around the tank)
    - a ability to redirect a spell back to its caster
    - abilities that can only be used after receiving damage with different effects like defensive buff , offensive attack, a CC or debuff on the attacker
    - shouts or auras that buff, debuff or CC players around the tank

    Mobility on the battlefield is also a concern. Should a plate or heavy armor wearing tank even have a moderate amount of mobility? Or be an unbreakable object as long as they stand their ground?

    Their are alot of interesting things for the developers to decide and I look forward to what that will be.
  • [quote quote=12307]I think a tank in a PvP setting should be more about support and CC than anything else.

    Some ways to make tanks viable in PvP:
    – a taunt in pvp could stun (for a very short time) enemies who attack anyone else as long as they have the taunt-debuff
    – a protective aura in an area behind the tank
    – path blocking abilities like a literal shield wall with other tanks (as seen in the mage video)
    – a buff for a single healer that increases healing received from that healer
    – abilities that redirect all incoming damage to the tank for a short duration (as single target buffs or area around the tank)
    – a ability to redirect a spell back to its caster
    – abilities that can only be used after receiving damage with different effects like defensive buff , offensive attack, a CC or debuff on the attacker
    – shouts or auras that buff, debuff or CC players around the tank

    Mobility on the battlefield is also a concern. Should a plate or heavy armor wearing tank even have a moderate amount of mobility? Or be an unbreakable object as long as they stand their ground?

    Their are alot of interesting things for the developers to decide and I look forward to what that will be.

    [/quote]

    Those are some cool suggestions. I love AoEs that empower allies and debuff enemies, it leads to better teamwork, I usually find. I do have a problem with your first suggestion, I actually think that would be the single most annoying ability to be cast on you. Can you imagine, being constantly shutdown when you try to attack others and being forced to chase the same tank who's being overhealed non-stop? Or you could be the tank casting the ability, and assuming one can cleanse debuffs all the other player had to do was retreat for a second, grab a healer, clear the debuff, and come back. I just don't see it happening.

    Regarding mobility I think it's safe to assume that the base running speed between armor types will be the same, having the lighter armor classes some movement speed increasing abilities.
  • <blockquote>I do have a problem with your first suggestion, I actually think that would be the single most annoying ability to be cast on you. Can you imagine, being constantly shutdown when you try to attack others and being forced to chase the same tank who’s being overhealed non-stop?</blockquote>

    The point is to force enemies to attack the tank instead of others as long as the taunt debuff is active and that would definitly make a player think twice if it's worth it to change target to interrupt a healer or DD or apply a debuff on them instead of the tank.

    But I agree that it could become incredibly frustrating especially with several tanks on the battlefield and without a good visual on which tank applied that debuff.
    Alternatively a massive damage debuff (instead of the stun) for all enemies except the tank could be used but that would become confusing if several tanks used that ability or if it is an area effect (again a good way to show debuffs and their origin would be needed).

    Of course a way to dispell or cleanse the debuffs is needed and would make playing a healer / supporter more interesting.
  • @Dawnwatcher

    Definitely, especially if debuffs stack, could you imagine having a party full of tanks negating your damage output? Oh lord, the devs have a difficult job ahead of them, balancing such mechanisms is very difficult. Keep giving out good suggestions, though, it's pretty cool to see the community at work.
  • First of all, sorry my english :$ but... What about misdirection like hunters or rogues in WoW that all the aggro goes to the tank. So the tank use that skill on the healer or any other player and all the damage goes to him and you dont have to change target to the tank cuz of the taunt. U still can target the healer (or any other player) but the tank takes all the damage.
    I think that is better than chasing and guessing who taunted u.
  • Hmm.... all the damage goes to him - well and silence effects, stuns, knockbacks, interrupts/ other debuffs also goes to him? if yes -it's cool ) but little OP.
  • The basic things to keep in mind for the class of tanks is to, 1. All tank/support types have to fulfill their base role, the deviations in subtypes adding different values to their play style.

    2. Supports should fulfill their role relatively equally, so if one support is better at X, then they will be worse at Y and a different support could be the inverse, +Y, -X. Each support should still be able to fulfill their role effectively

    3. The best way to make playing tanks and support type fun is with those big play moments. The enemy got the jump on your dps, he is about do take a load of damage and then you save him. This is core, but what a lot of people don't realize is support classes often do not get enough recognition for those plays. Make those moments noticeable, so then the enemy knows what spell was just used, and so the group knows that the cleric just saved that guy's life. It's satisfying to know you saved them, but when everyone knows that's where it feels good. Dps can visibly see how good or bad their damage is, tanks and support though, your hp bar just goes back and forth with shields and icons surrounding different players sometimes. I don't know if this is right, but at least to me, giving support classes ways to deviate and be visible and flashy helps supports feel better about their class. If you tank and you use a giant aoe shield right when the boss is about to hit your group with a huge fireball, it shouldn't be a icon appears on everyone's screen and the fireball does no damage. The fireball should crash into the shield and be destroyed, all thanks to the tank, visibly showing how close the group had come to disaster, which immediately after causes the discord voice chat to go crazy xD. Take it with everything though, those timed CC's. I honestly think most basic spells should be less visible as they are constant, and make the high cd clutch saves and attacks the focus point a fight.

    4. Counter play, counter pay,..counter play! xD Make skill defining, not just this ability on this class is better than X ability on X class, so this class is outright better. The numbers should be relatively close, where the difference is firstly skill, and then classes in different scenarios.

    Note: Something to keep in mind, I've said this another post too, always keep classes able to do their core identity. If you make a cleric, dam well you should be healing in equivalent to your skill and gear not because of the recent patch notes, and same thing for other healers, as long as they shine in different things with different weaknesses while still being competitive value wise to other healer esque classes, then the devs have done their jobs.
  • [quote quote=12761]Hmm…. all the damage goes to him – well and silence effects, stuns, knockbacks, interrupts/ other debuffs also goes to him? if yes -it’s cool ) but little OP.

    [/quote]

    No, just damage. U can stun, silence, int the healer but the damage goes to the tank.

    And Greentang if u want to see who saved you what if the skill is that the tank jump to the healer and scream "not in my watch" hahahaha. Thats enough recognition to the tank-support.??
  • That would actually be great, like actually anything. Mine was extreme, but anything that was noticeable enough to know somebody just saved you bacon would be the best. I think WoW has used that kind of, I think it was macros. where if a healer used a big heal they would shout something in chat automatically. Some people came up with the best stuff. "I'm not a miracle doctor!" Among others lol
  • Warhammer Age of Reckoning had some of the best PvPing for tanks I've seen to date.

    Taunting a player applies a debuff that causes them to do less damage to OTHER players until they've attacked the tank a certain number of times, forcing the target to make a choice between doing sub-optimal damage against a softer target, or waste time on the tank to remove the debuff. Tanks were also the only classes that could chain-snare targets (other classes had cooldowns on theirs), permitting melee-oriented DPSers to keep up with their quarry. They also had the ability to 'guard' a target, putting a buff on an ally that shared all damage the guarded character took with the tank, as long as the tank was close to them.

    The shield wall ability was another fun thing tanks could do, a channel cast that caused the tank itself and any friendly characters in a radius behind it to get a huge bonus to dodge and defensive stats, which stacked as more tanks performed the shield wall action.

    All in all, the style emphasized tanks working together with others by performing actions other characters could not, and also by letting their allies perform to the best of their abilities (i.e. keeping fleeing targets slowed for melee, guarding/shield walling squishy casters so they could nuke from the front lines).
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