Trinity "Tank, Damage, Support" and Janken "Rock, Paper, Scissors"

ArchivedUser

Will we likely be following the path of the established:

Trinity system for PVE content?

And the Janken system for PVP balancing?

I am assuming yes to some degree for both of these typical systems.

ArchivedUser

I assume you mean class balancing i.e. rock>paper>scissors sort of thing. I dont have the exact statement but I have heard that generally for pvp they intend to follow a loose class counter system like rogues counter mages well or something.

ArchivedUser

Yeah a counter system...

plate armor/leather armor/cloth armor.

Or tank/melee/ranged.

Pretty common, but would be nice to know more detail specifics.

ArchivedUser

I'm sure it wont be that straight forward, AoC is trying to be different so distancing itself from the basic trinity and rock, paper, scissors countering is one of the best things they can do; There is always going to be a meta but they can make their systems layered enough so there is less simplicity and no clear cut counters.

ArchivedUser

GW2 tried to be different.

But inevitably had to introduce a soft trinity. Some players want to tank some just want to support.

Much of the potential build diversity was made irrelevant because player dodge/evade mechanics mitigated any need to building into sustain/support.
Which lead to a glass cannon global meta* that trivialised all PVE content because the AI was not coded to handle burst.

PVP shifted towards a condition/debuff META, where Large scale PVP engagements was just a dump of debuff spam and hoping your group had enough cleansing. All the number crunching lead to abysmal performance.

I am not entirely sure if distancing itself from the trinity system is actually a good move.
It will be interesting to find out how AoC decides to go.

The best thing to come out the the GW2 system was the all players could resurrect others out of combat.

ArchivedUser

Hi!

We haven't seen 100% info about it, it's in development but:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/rr3EvfO.png" alt="" />

There'll be dodging and hopefully a combat system in which you need skill.

ArchivedUser

The only game I've seen actually move away from the PvE trinity was the original GuildWars, where mobs were "smarter" and didn't have standard threat tables like in most mmorpgs. Instead they worked on a priority system where they actively targetted lower healthed and less armoured targets within range. I like this system as it gave the healers and casters something extra to think about and make the combat seem more realistic. If you were a mage and you got too close to a mob, it would turn around and smack you down. It was definitely a refreshing change from the usual tank'and'spank combat you got in traditional mmorpgs.

ArchivedUser

[quote quote=13147]The only game I’ve seen actually move away from the PvE trinity was the original GuildWars, where mobs were “smarter” and didn’t have standard threat tables like in most mmorpgs. Instead they worked on a priority system where they actively targetted lower healthed and less armoured targets within range. I like this system as it gave the healers and casters something extra to think about and make the combat seem more realistic. If you were a mage and you got too close to a mob, it would turn around and smack you down. It was definitely a refreshing change from the usual tank’and’spank combat you got in traditional mmorpgs.

[/quote]

To me though, the trinity system is what makes an MMORPG, an MMORPG. Without it, it just feels odd to me. Thats one thing i always check before i start playing one is that it has the trinity system. I enjoy healing a tank or BEING a tank to protect others from monsters.

ArchivedUser

If it is to heavily reliant it can become incredibly dull and unrewarding for tank/support roles.

Or is inherently associated with the "whack a mole" play style that needs to die, nobody should have to do that or be ridiculed for not doing it.....

And trying to level up as anything but damage is excruciating, generally because exp is gained on a per kill basis.

If tanking and support were rewarded similarly for their roles as DPS typically does, it would be far more refreshing to consider these roles if they were not so often underappreciated.

Also a hard focus on trinity roles often leads to lazy MoB Ai.

In PVP its even harder balance for hence why the Jenken system is in place.

ArchivedUser

[quote quote=13164]<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/trinity-tank-damage-support-and-janken-rock-paper-scissors/#post-13147" rel="nofollow">midnight-shadow wrote:</a></div>
The only game I’ve seen actually move away from the PvE trinity was the original GuildWars, where mobs were “smarter” and didn’t have standard threat tables like in most mmorpgs. Instead they worked on a priority system where they actively targetted lower healthed and less armoured targets within range. I like this system as it gave the healers and casters something extra to think about and make the combat seem more realistic. If you were a mage and you got too close to a mob, it would turn around and smack you down. It was definitely a refreshing change from the usual tank’and’spank combat you got in traditional mmorpgs.

</blockquote>
To me though, the trinity system is what makes an MMORPG, an MMORPG. Without it, it just feels odd to me. Thats one thing i always check before i start playing one is that it has the trinity system. I enjoy healing a tank or BEING a tank to protect others from monsters.

[/quote]

See that is what I loved about GuildWars, in that it still had the trinity classes but it reworked them due to the AI mechanics. You still had healers, and you still had tanks, but everyone in the party had to be aware of their positioning a lot more. The tanks had a lot of disables and could pin targets down or intercept them, and were mostly used to take out the enemy casters. On the other hand, the casters needed to be aware of their positioning to not get too close to the enemy, otherwise they would get attacked and die very quickly. I'm not saying it was a better system than the standard aggro of most other mmorpgs, but it was a refreshing change and meant there was a closer connection between PvP and PvE, since the PvE mobs acted more like human players by targeting the casters first.

ArchivedUser

Expect a trinity system with Tank, Healers, Damage and Support with as many class combos as we have right now. It would be nice to have a support class again in our Instance groups.