Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
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For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
The "Trinity"
ArchivedUser
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From the information I can see I can not tell if Ashes will keep the "Trinity" of Tank, Healer and DPS. Will this some structure be kept or will it be more outside of the box. I would love to see a break of the Trinity. What are any Ideas for possibly doing this?
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There is topic with analogic theme https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/trinity-tank-damage-support-and-janken-rock-paper-scissors/
Between the trinity system of healer/tank/dps and the eastern style action mmo's where no everyone does a little of everything and your APM is what really matters, I defenitely prefer the trinity system. I'd rather play a white mage in FFXIV than play anything in balde and soul, but I do concede how fun playing the kung fu master in blade and soul was for about a week.
That being said, I still miss the old days of pre-trinity where in games like EQ it was actually good to have a support class in that acted as a true force multiplier on the whole team to a larger degree than them actually dealing significant damage of their own.
I'd reaaallly like to play a true support again where my total personal DPS is the lowest in the party, but my presence increased the entire party's efficiency by a solid 30% or something. Tank is getting hit hard? I give him an extra buff and debuff the enemy. We've got adds? I'll put them to sleep. the casters are running out of mana? I'll give them a boost! What's that? the fight is taking too long since i'm not DPSing too? Let me just boost everyone else's DPS instead!
Everquest Enchanter. I want the Enchanter back. I want that whole role style back.
Bearing in mind the trinity will only cover 3/8 of the classes.....I think the trinity would make 5 of the classes irrelevant and pointless.
Some devs are from the "old school" MMORPG so I hope they make a game with specific roles. The new games where all the PJ are "hybrids" in all the departments loses the spirit of party .
Create encounters where crowd control (CC) is important, maybe very difficult without it.
Mesmerize, charm, lull, stun, fear the enemies to allow the tank and DPS to focus down priority targets.
I'd like to see class combinations that can make Enchanters, Bards, Necromancers, etc. take on the CC role.
Then there are useful buffs - haste, mana regen - also Enchanter & Bard type skills in past games.
Finally, they've mentioned that fast travel will be extremely limited - but how about player provided run speed buffs and teleportation spells?
The support/utility roles made previous MMORPG games fun, social, and challenging.
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I enjoy the concept however there's commonly two issues. either it's difficult to have challenging content if hybrid classes can also function as another pillar of the trinity or it invalidates the single focused classes as they're no better than hybrids which can do more.
typically what happens hybrids will be good-enough for most situations however for exceeding challenging content it'll be best to take focused classes for key roles which results in there being two must have classes.
it's unclear if the second spec, ie sub spec, is only going to augment existing class/role abilities or also allow the class to 'hybrid' into another role entirely. If so how would one balance a class that can now perform two of the trinity.. and would that only result in the same focused vs hybrid issues. ie a tank/tank would be the premier tank for challenging content. similarly cleric/cleric top healer, dps/dps top dps, ..
3x hybrid = Tank + healer + DD
Tanks would suck at DD and healing
Healers would suck at Tank and DD
DD would suck at tank and Healing.
The fact the trinity sucks at the other aspects is what makes the combination of hybrids just as poweful.
At the end of the day it should be about distribution of skills.
Who has what skills should be irrelevant and a choice made by the group to suit their own collective playstyle.
The difficulty depends on if we are dealing with long time groups or on the fly groups.
Long term groups would have adapted to each other. Short term groups will struggle and must adapt or split.
Well defined classes means you know exactly what you are going to get.
But they stifle innovation and individuality for that exact reason.
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Not sure I'd consider what appears to be 'nice to have' utility abilities as features that'd be all but required (ie holy trinity when there's three must have roles). they've mentioned the idea is one can bring torches for illumination and clear debris via others means it's only they're less convenient than having the class that offers the ability.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-trinity/#post-14775" rel="nofollow">Elveone wrote:</a></div>
I think that the “trinity” should be a viable tactic and not a hard system. The game should not be optimized to have a mandatory trinity meaning it should not be necessary to have a tank and a healer in order to succeed. I would love to see hybrid characters being viable – a dps that has some healing skills in case of emergency or a sturdier DPS that can act as a tank if necessary but I do not want to see mobs having to be tanked by one guy who needs to be healed constantly.
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I enjoy the concept however there’s commonly two issues. either it’s difficult to have challenging content if hybrid classes can also function as another pillar of the trinity or it invalidates the single focused classes as they’re no better than hybrids which can do more.
typically what happens hybrids will be good-enough for most situations however for exceeding challenging content it’ll be best to take focused classes for key roles which results in there being two must have classes.
it’s unclear if the second spec, ie sub spec, is only going to augment existing class/role abilities or also allow the class to ‘hybrid’ into another role entirely. If so how would one balance a class that can now perform two of the trinity.. and would that only result in the same focused vs hybrid issues. ie a tank/tank would be the premier tank for challenging content. similarly cleric/cleric top healer, dps/dps top dps, ..
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Yeah, that would be the problem with a system that forces all the roles to be filled but IMO a party of three DPS characters should be just as viable as a party of three support focused characters or a party of three hybrids or a party of a tank, dps and support. Challenge should come from the combat itself and of playing to your strengths and having a good tactical and situational awareness instead of having an artificial difficulty of mandatory checklists and stats that need to be filled.
They touch on the idea of the "trinity".
Basically, they want each class to fulfill a role.
Your primary class will be your archetype, ie, if you are a healer, tank or dps.
The secondary class isn't so much a 'hybrid' in the sense you are now a healer/tank. But rather, the secondary class you choose will augment your primary skills to add flavor.
That means going Primary:Healer, Secondary:Tank =/= Primary:Tank, Secondary:Healer.
Lets say you go Healer/tank
I will imagine that you can augment your heals/buff to give armor and barriers to your allies. The result, your new class might be known as an auramancer (made up name).
If you go Tank/healer I will image your defense skill can be augmented with holy attribute or give yourself a self regeneration. The result, your new class might be known as a paladin.
You also have the option to double down, ie Healer/healer or tank/tank to really specialize in your class.
As you see in these two examples, the healer/tank cannot substitute as the main tank, and the tank/healer cannot substitute as the main healer. Each role is still defined from the primary class.
In the Q&A they mention they may release in 1 week, 1 class details. Keep in mind the game closed alpha is launching late 2018. So it will be some time before they release all 8 class + 64 combinations. Hopefully in 3-4 months as this is the topic I am most interested in.
Late 2018 closed alpha? I hope this is a mistake... This would mean closed alpha near 2019?
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-trinity/#post-15650" rel="nofollow">Shirikuryu wrote:</a></div>
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Late 2018 closed alpha? I hope this is a mistake… This would mean closed alpha near 2019?
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Unless I heard wrong, I listened to the whole Q&A on their utube.
He said paraphrase "Closed alpha date is mention on the kickstarter, we hope to get it out earlier than but it is schedule for december 2018". I took the extra step and went to the kickstarter page to confirm, the delivery date does say "december 2018".
In AoC, where a mage can use magic to "disarm" traps - hopefully reliance on the Trinity will not be a thing.
Tasks, events and narratives likely will not be so basic as "KoS everything you encounter".
Hopefully some of the tasks and narratives will include objectives like retrieving ancient grimoires - relying on stealth and trap disarm and words of power and prayers...perhaps some Scientific devices such that completing the objective(s) isn't solely focused on tanking, healing and dps.
It would be great to have tasks/objectives which will fail if you engage in combat.
They touch on the idea of the “trinity”.
Basically, they want each class to fulfill a role.
Your primary class will be your archetype, ie, if you are a healer, tank or dps.
The secondary class isn’t so much a ‘hybrid’ in the sense you are now a healer/tank. But rather, the secondary class you choose will augment your primary skills to add flavor.
That means going Primary:Healer, Secondary:Tank =/= Primary:Tank, Secondary:Healer.
Lets say you go Healer/tank
I will imagine that you can augment your heals/buff to give armor and barriers to your allies. The result, your new class might be known as an auramancer (made up name).
If you go Tank/healer I will image your defense skill can be augmented with holy attribute or give yourself a self regeneration. The result, your new class might be known as a paladin.
You also have the option to double down, ie Healer/healer or tank/tank to really specialize in your class.
As you see in these two examples, the healer/tank cannot substitute as the main tank, and the tank/healer cannot substitute as the main healer. Each role is still defined from the primary class.
In the Q&A they mention they may release in 1 week, 1 class details. Keep in mind the game closed alpha is launching late 2018. So it will be some time before they release all 8 class + 64 combinations. Hopefully in 3-4 months as this is the topic I am most interested in.
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do we know if classes are going to be hybrids? if not there's going to be a lot of contention for tanks and clerics
<img src="https://i.gyazo.com/37db128e7f142fd5f4abd49701298619.png" alt="Alpha Date" />
As far as the Trinity goes, it's a good place to start from. It has less to do with providing players less choices of play style and more to do with making interesting encounters that require a degree of control or predictability on the player's part. If all challenges could be accomplished by anyone doing anything, it would end up homogenizing a lot of encounters in terms of mechanics and difficulty.
Having said that, flexibility and viability among the various roles within the trinity keeps things fresh, and I strongly wish to see a return to support/force multiplier characters-types, having been a big fan of Bards and Enchanters in Everquest. Being part of a team, be it CCing mobs, providing crucial buffs or keeping the healers going with mana, always felt super rewarding when executed properly. Just the gratitude from all the other party members for your presence often made it worth playing a support!
<img src="https://i.gyazo.com/37db128e7f142fd5f4abd49701298619.png" alt="Alpha Date" />
As far as the Trinity goes, it’s a good place to start from. It has less to do with providing players less choices of play style and more to do with making interesting encounters that require a degree of control or predictability on the player’s part. If all challenges could be accomplished by anyone doing anything, it would end up homogenizing a lot of encounters in terms of mechanics and difficulty.
Having said that, flexibility and viability among the various roles within the trinity keeps things fresh, and I strongly wish to see a return to support/force multiplier characters-types, having been a big fan of Bards and Enchanters in Everquest. Being part of a team, be it CCing mobs, providing crucial buffs or keeping the healers going with mana, always felt super rewarding when executed properly. Just the gratitude from all the other party members for your presence often made it worth playing a support!
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Disagree completely. Optimizing the game for the trinity is what makes every encounter play the same. By allowing for diverse strategies there can be multiple ways to approach a group of enemies depending on what your group composition is. The CC, buffs and mana influx that you give as an example for keeping the trinity fresh are not a part of the trinity. Every party member should be able to do damage and have cc and support abilities and combining them in a proper way should be what wins the battle and not a reliance of a predefined party structure.
What intrepid has to do is create several solutions for any one dungeon. I'll give some examples.
Lets say the lore is that monsters that glow red are 'corrupt'. The solution is to destroy the corruption, not so much the monster.
How?
1) destroy the monster OR
2) cleanse the corruption OR
3) find the source of corruption and destroy that
By creating multiple solutions to one problem, this will allow for different classes to become viable.
Lets say we go with standard solution 1)
You would probably go with a variation of the trinity or healer + dps combo. The method is to face tank enemies while dealing dps.
If you go with solution 2)
lets say healers have the ability called cleanse(multipurpose, can remove certain cc's or debuff but can also remove corruption). It doesn't deal damage but it will slowly cleanse enemies overtime, once they are cleansed of corruption they become 'peaceful' or their souls move on. This method would involve more supports and tanks, no need for dps here.
If you go with solution 3)
you would go in with a squad of high mobility and tracking skills like rogue and ranger. They can navigate the map and find hidden rooms and by pass mobs. When they find the source of corruption, they will destroy it and clear the dungeon that way.
You can imagine several other solution thus making each party member utility viable in a dungeon.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-trinity/#post-15258" rel="nofollow">delghinn wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-trinity/#post-14775" rel="nofollow">Elveone wrote:</a></div>
I think that the “trinity” should be a viable tactic and not a hard system. The game should not be optimized to have a mandatory trinity meaning it should not be necessary to have a tank and a healer in order to succeed. I would love to see hybrid characters being viable – a dps that has some healing skills in case of emergency or a sturdier DPS that can act as a tank if necessary but I do not want to see mobs having to be tanked by one guy who needs to be healed constantly.
</blockquote>
I enjoy the concept however there’s commonly two issues. either it’s difficult to have challenging content if hybrid classes can also function as another pillar of the trinity or it invalidates the single focused classes as they’re no better than hybrids which can do more.
typically what happens hybrids will be good-enough for most situations however for exceeding challenging content it’ll be best to take focused classes for key roles which results in there being two must have classes.
it’s unclear if the second spec, ie sub spec, is only going to augment existing class/role abilities or also allow the class to ‘hybrid’ into another role entirely. If so how would one balance a class that can now perform two of the trinity.. and would that only result in the same focused vs hybrid issues. ie a tank/tank would be the premier tank for challenging content. similarly cleric/cleric top healer, dps/dps top dps, ..
</blockquote>
Yeah, that would be the problem with a system that forces all the roles to be filled but IMO a party of three DPS characters should be just as viable as a party of three support focused characters or a party of three hybrids or a party of a tank, dps and support. Challenge should come from the combat itself and of playing to your strengths and having a good tactical and situational awareness instead of having an artificial difficulty of mandatory checklists and stats that need to be filled.
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Said that ending so much better than I could.
I did actually suggest smart bosses that built a list of the collective skills in the team.
Then adapted itself to become an exact nemesis.
But that would only really work in closed instances