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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Nodes and Nationhood: Player Political Organization in Ashes of Creation
<a href="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZWo9VMuSHRalNWTFNRRS1PYWs">Link to PDF here.</a>
Hi everyone,
This started as a forum thread, but after around an hour it became clear that it was probably too long to squeeze into a mere forum thread, and resumed work in MS Word - because the forum has had issues of posts getting eaten. One week later, this ballooned into a 3,000+ word document.
I started this because of the massive amount of player agency which this MMO is about to offer, and I could not help but notice most of the folks showing interest in Ashes of Creation do not have much experience with concepts of this nature, and may need a primer on what to expect going forward. I also hope that through this document, the good people at Intrepid get a heads up to anticipate all kinds of wild stuff that players can pull to disrupt and tear up even their most extensive and well-planned designs.
Hopefully, with this I can get the ball rolling on well-considered and constructive discussion here.
<a href="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZWo9VMuSHRalNWTFNRRS1PYWs">Link to PDF here.</a>
Hi everyone,
This started as a forum thread, but after around an hour it became clear that it was probably too long to squeeze into a mere forum thread, and resumed work in MS Word - because the forum has had issues of posts getting eaten. One week later, this ballooned into a 3,000+ word document.
I started this because of the massive amount of player agency which this MMO is about to offer, and I could not help but notice most of the folks showing interest in Ashes of Creation do not have much experience with concepts of this nature, and may need a primer on what to expect going forward. I also hope that through this document, the good people at Intrepid get a heads up to anticipate all kinds of wild stuff that players can pull to disrupt and tear up even their most extensive and well-planned designs.
Hopefully, with this I can get the ball rolling on well-considered and constructive discussion here.
<a href="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZWo9VMuSHRalNWTFNRRS1PYWs">Link to PDF here.</a>
0
Comments
Thanks for the fantastic write up. I completely agree with everything you have eloquently put. Do you have any intentions moving forward with this as a project to help get people prepared? I would be interested in starting a weekly podcast or talk about this subject with you and a few others that I have around with similar experience as yours.
Please let me know if you are interested in having a chat about this some time.
I doubt that there will be much anarchy -especially not All vs All- when Ashes begins.
My expectation is that friends and guilds and Founders will work together during Alpha, Beta and Launch to forge the types of nodes they want. Most of that planning will happen via the forums and Discord, etc.
2: HEGEMONY - leadership or dominance, especially by one country or social group over others.
There will certainly be guilds playing with an active goal for dominance in Ashes of Creation.
But, all of us striving to create and support a Metropolis will be indirectly vying for dominance as well.
In Ashes of Creation, hegemony is almost unavoidable - unless you're obsessed with being some form of hermit or nomad.
It's not necessarily about security, though. I suppose it depends on how one defines security. To me, it's more about supporting my intended lifestyle. I want to create and support and live in a Divine or Scientific City/Metropolis rather than a Trade or Military City/Metropolis. And I'd like to reap the benefits to my skills such a city will offer.
Since AoC also includes sieges and city destruction, I will also be concerned about defense of the my home, but the primary focus will be on establishing a region that's focused on the Divine.
3: COOPERATION
Your concept of equal cooperation among nations is odd. Especially your example that " co-operation is rewarded with mutual benefit, and yet non-contributing members will have to be punished based on rules which all parties have already consented to in the first place."
Within cities, non-contributing parties probably won't be punished when it comes to maintaining the nodes. For one thing, most activities contribute to the node, so that mostly happens simply by playing the game. Combating non-contribution will be more about adding more people who actually contribute than punishing those who don't.
While equality is one of my highest values, I doubt players will be wasting time trying to determine if cooperation is equal. Rather we will strive to cooperate in order to accomplish specific goals.
Ending an unhelpful alliance is not necessarily a punishment. It's merely a consequence. Mutual benefit doesn't necessarily have to be equal benefit. And, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
4: COMPETITION
I'm non-competitive - which is probably why your perspective seems so odd to me.
It behooves players to be able to trade with all four types of Metropolises. Yes.
If the primary mindset for the Ashes of Creation community is that a single guild should <ul>
dominate</ul> all five Metropolises in the region, I guess I won't be playing AoC - just like I don't play EVE.
I'm motivated by cooperation and repulsed by domination.
But, this might be a reason to explore what types of servers will be available. H1Z1 had some servers dedicated to specific guilds or Twitch streamers. I also consider myself a casual (challenge) player rather than a hardcore (challenge) gamer.
So, if AoC is going to have EVE-like competition, in general... I'll have to hope we have some form of casual (challenge) servers, too.
5: NATIONHOOD
I'm Chaotic Good, so I abhor governing by power and authority.
Phrases/concepts like, "When a game involving open world, and player-run organizations running all political events, leaders will need to take player interest, engagement and morale into account if they wish to take territory and hold it. It is not very difficult to recruit members en-masse, or even have an alliance of huge member counts with low recruitment standards, but it is far more difficult to ensure these players will keep on logging in to serve the interest of their guilds/alliances," are anathema to me.
What I love about Ashes of Creation is that we won't have to focus on supporting a guild simply to support the guild or the rules of the guild. Supporting our city/Metropolis will be more organic than that.
I want to live in a Divine Metropolis and share Divine miracles with the rest of the world. Which means I'll need to strive to create and maintain the infrastructure that mass produces miracles. And I'll want to protect my home and city which, in turn, supports my lifestyle.
Leaders don't necessarily have to think about my morale, etc. I will keep logging in periodically in order to make sure that a dragon hasn't destroyed my home and to say whatever prayers will maintain the defensive barriers around the city. Hopefully, we will be motivated by the pride of taking care of the spiritual needs of the our region.
My expectation is that the city/Metropolis will be more important than nation or MMORPG guild.
I suppose that depends on the size of the pre-established MMORPG guild. Especially those large enough to plan for a kingdom from jump.
Seems like the government systems don't support nation/kingdom anyways. It's more like an alliance/union of Metropolises.
If the Divine Metropolis I'm living in falls, I'll most likely seek to find a new Divine Metropolis to support - regardless of MMORPG guild or "nation/kingdom". I might settle for a nearby Science Metropolis, but I would have no loyalty to support a Trade or Military Metropolis if I'm not living in a Divine or Scientific Metropolis.
(Which has me wondering about the possibility of character transfers to a different server.)
When I do join/form MMORPG guilds, it tends to be a community who watches a specific twitch/youtube streamer.
Given the focus on social media we have these days, it's a given that social media will be the basic glue that unites groups outside of the game. (Though, I'm often interacting with streamers and twitter and/or FB while I'm playing.)
That's not necessarily solely attached to a "leader" though. The same would be true for anyone in my metropolis who streams; not just the "leader(s)" of the Metropolis.
6: PLAYER COMMUNICATION
Strange that you even offer Forums as a medium for leaders to discuss politics.
Again, I expect social media -including twitch and youtube and skype- to be the preferred method of talking to the citizens of a city/Metropolis. Even Discord rather than Forums.
Maybe I'm too much of an outlier? I expect to be watching gameplay of my city as people stream. I will hopefully be streaming as well. Rather than searching for attacks on leaderboards.
Since the nodes are monitoring everything, I'd wish for "leaderboards" to come in story synopsis form rather than stats format - if we have to be subjected to leaderboards.
I wonder what kind of youtuber vids could crop up from reporting on the news of the day for a city.
Thanks for the fantastic write up. I completely agree with everything you have eloquently put. Do you have any intentions moving forward with this as a project to help get people prepared? I would be interested in starting a weekly podcast or talk about this subject with you and a few others that I have around with similar experience as yours.
Please let me know if you are interested in having a chat about this some time.
[/quote]
Interesting question. When I started writing this, I never had any intentions of making it a semi-permanent project because it isn't my business to tell other guilds what to do (except for my guild of course). I'm also not certain if I am able to spare that much time to pull it off, between juggling my work hours and making sure my job doesn't get replaced by an AI.
I'd be more than happy to talk to you for your podcast. My Discord id is NEWater#0855
Also, thank you, Davlos, for the in depth read, provided in your link!
I doubt that there will be much anarchy -especially not All vs All- when Ashes begins.
My expectation is that friends and guilds and Founders will work together during Alpha, Beta and Launch to forge the types of nodes they want. Most of that planning will happen via the forums and Discord, etc.[/quote]
No argument from me in that aspect - when I wrote of "anarchy", it was defined as the default state of how players behave when there are no guilds or communities (or as I wrote, "player organizations") to pull them together and govern themselves. The formation of guilds will resolve the "problem" of anarchy among players.
The second aspect of anarchy I later wrote about, was the anarchy among the organizations themselves. Since Intrepid appears to want to take a mostly hands-off approach to how players want to go about things, organizations are free to do as they please in this state of anarchy, like waging war, striking trade deals, forming alliances, etc. I hope this clarifies what I meant by "anarchy".
[quote]2: HEGEMONY – leadership or dominance, especially by one country or social group over others.
There will certainly be guilds playing with an active goal for dominance in Ashes of Creation.
But, all of us striving to create and support a Metropolis will be indirectly vying for dominance as well.
In Ashes of Creation, hegemony is almost unavoidable – unless you’re obsessed with being some form of hermit or nomad.
It’s not necessarily about security, though. I suppose it depends on how one defines security. To me, it’s more about supporting my intended lifestyle. I want to create and support and live in a Divine or Scientific City/Metropolis rather than a Trade or Military City/Metropolis. And I’d like to reap the benefits to my skills such a city will offer.
Since AoC also includes sieges and city destruction, I will also be concerned about defense of the my home, but the primary focus will be on establishing a region that’s focused on the Divine.[/quote]
Even as someone who chooses to live in a Divine/Scientific City, it will not make you immune to attack unless your Mayor(s) are a) extremely good at negotiating and convincing would-be attackers to go for someone else, or b) are very popular personalities and it is considered taboo to attack them. For example, nobody in real life would (god forbid) murder the Pope or the Dalai Lama and expect to get away with it in the court of public opinion. The scenarios I just described are soft power in action (for further reading, I recommend <a href="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZWo9VMuSHRRmdpX0g5bThsajA">reading Joseph Nye's defining article which does a better job than I can hope to do in explaining.</a>) If you are not interested in dealing with PvP at all, you're right to say that you still have to be concerned about the defense of your home - and that still makes security a very important concern, if not <strong>the</strong> most important concern among all.
Establishing an alliance with a PvP guild/alliance who own a castle, who also agree to defend you in times of need, and in return you may use your Scientific node to grant them the benefit of fast travel is a way of ensuring your security. You won't be able to pursue your interests in reaping the benefits of living in a Divine/Scientific city if it becomes rubble tomorrow.
[quote quote=15175]1: ANARCHY
I doubt that there will be much anarchy -especially not All vs All- when Ashes begins.
My expectation is that friends and guilds and Founders will work together during Alpha, Beta and Launch to forge the types of nodes they want. Most of that planning will happen via the forums and Discord, etc.[/quote]
No argument from me in that aspect - when I wrote of "anarchy", it was defined as the default state of how players behave when there are no guilds or communities (or as I wrote, "player organizations") to pull them together and govern themselves. The formation of guilds will resolve the "problem" of anarchy among players.
The second aspect of anarchy I later wrote about, was the anarchy among the organizations themselves. Since Intrepid appears to want to take a mostly hands-off approach to how players want to go about things, organizations are free to do as they please in this state of anarchy, like waging war, striking trade deals, forming alliances, etc. I hope this clarifies what I meant by "anarchy".
[quote]2: HEGEMONY – leadership or dominance, especially by one country or social group over others.
There will certainly be guilds playing with an active goal for dominance in Ashes of Creation.
But, all of us striving to create and support a Metropolis will be indirectly vying for dominance as well.
In Ashes of Creation, hegemony is almost unavoidable – unless you’re obsessed with being some form of hermit or nomad.
It’s not necessarily about security, though. I suppose it depends on how one defines security. To me, it’s more about supporting my intended lifestyle. I want to create and support and live in a Divine or Scientific City/Metropolis rather than a Trade or Military City/Metropolis. And I’d like to reap the benefits to my skills such a city will offer.
Since AoC also includes sieges and city destruction, I will also be concerned about defense of the my home, but the primary focus will be on establishing a region that’s focused on the Divine.[/quote]
Even as someone who chooses to live in a Divine/Scientific City, it will not make you immune to attack unless your Mayor(s) are a) extremely good at negotiating and convincing would-be attackers to go for someone else, or b) are very popular personalities and it is considered taboo to attack them. For example, nobody in real life would (god forbid) murder the Pope or the Dalai Lama and expect to get away with it in the court of public opinion. The scenarios I just described are soft power in action (for further reading, I recommend <a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/occhlrtukkqb7v2/Joseph%20Nye%20Soft%20Power.pdf?dl=0">reading Joseph Nye's defining article which does a better job than I can hope to do in explaining.</a>) If you are not interested in dealing with PvP at all, you're right to say that you still have to be concerned about the defense of your home - and that still makes security a very important concern, if not <strong>the</strong> most important concern among all.
Establishing an alliance with a PvP guild/alliance who own a castle, who also agree to defend you in times of need, and in return you may use your Scientific node to grant them the benefit of fast travel is a way of ensuring your security. You won't be able to pursue your interests in reaping the benefits of living in a Divine/Scientific city if it becomes rubble tomorrow.
[quote quote=15175]1: ANARCHY
I doubt that there will be much anarchy -especially not All vs All- when Ashes begins.
My expectation is that friends and guilds and Founders will work together during Alpha, Beta and Launch to forge the types of nodes they want. Most of that planning will happen via the forums and Discord, etc.[/quote]
No argument from me in that aspect - when I wrote of "anarchy", it was defined as the default state of how players behave when there are no guilds or communities (or as I wrote, "player organizations") to pull them together and govern themselves. The formation of guilds will resolve the "problem" of anarchy among players.
The second aspect of anarchy I later wrote about, was the anarchy among the organizations themselves. Since Intrepid appears to want to take a mostly hands-off approach to how players want to go about things, organizations are free to do as they please in this state of anarchy, like waging war, striking trade deals, forming alliances, etc. I hope this clarifies what I meant by "anarchy".
[quote]2: HEGEMONY – leadership or dominance, especially by one country or social group over others.
There will certainly be guilds playing with an active goal for dominance in Ashes of Creation.
But, all of us striving to create and support a Metropolis will be indirectly vying for dominance as well.
In Ashes of Creation, hegemony is almost unavoidable – unless you’re obsessed with being some form of hermit or nomad.
It’s not necessarily about security, though. I suppose it depends on how one defines security. To me, it’s more about supporting my intended lifestyle. I want to create and support and live in a Divine or Scientific City/Metropolis rather than a Trade or Military City/Metropolis. And I’d like to reap the benefits to my skills such a city will offer.
Since AoC also includes sieges and city destruction, I will also be concerned about defense of the my home, but the primary focus will be on establishing a region that’s focused on the Divine.[/quote]
Even as someone who chooses to live in a Divine/Scientific City, it will not make you immune to attack unless your Mayor(s) are a) extremely good at negotiating and convincing would-be attackers to go for someone else, or b) are very popular personalities and it is considered taboo to attack them. For example, nobody in real life would (god forbid) murder the Pope or the Dalai Lama and expect to get away with it in the court of public opinion. The scenarios I just described are soft power in action (for further reading, I recommend <a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/occhlrtukkqb7v2/Joseph%20Nye%20Soft%20Power.pdf?dl=0">reading Joseph Nye's defining article which does a better job than I can hope to do in explaining.</a>) If you are not interested in dealing with PvP at all, you're right to say that you still have to be concerned about the defense of your home - and that still makes security a very important concern, if not <strong>the</strong> most important concern among all.
Establishing an alliance with a PvP guild/alliance who own a castle, who also agree to defend you in times of need, and in return you may use your Scientific node to grant them the benefit of fast travel is a way of ensuring your security. You won't be able to pursue your interests in reaping the benefits of living in a Divine/Scientific city if it becomes rubble tomorrow.
Also, thank you, Davlos, for the in depth read, provided in your link!
[/quote]
Thank you. :S One of my biggest fears is that it would be a case of TL;DR for any potential reader.
One of my biggest fears is that it would be a case of TL;DR for any potential reader.
[/quote]
Nah. It's a great read, in any case.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/nodes-and-nationhood-player-political-organization-in-ashes-of-creation/#post-15191" rel="nofollow">freespiryt wrote:</a></div>
Excellent! I found everything withing discussed within this thread to be extremely enjoyable, and thought provoking. The layers, sub layers, and various variables inherent in the core of AoC’s gameplay allows for any multitude of happenstance! It will be intriguing to see how it all unfolds, if indeed these mechanics are incorporated as stated.
Also, thank you, Davlos, for the in depth read, provided in your link!
</blockquote>
Thank you. :S One of my biggest fears is that it would be a case of TL;DR for any potential reader.
[/quote]
I am thinking there are going to be a lot of people with a mind for this kind of thing on the game. Hopefully if there is enough interest in it and we can get to some good thought provoking topics that will help the devs steer the game in the right direction!
No argument from me in that aspect – when I wrote of “anarchy”, it was defined as the default state of how players behave when there are no guilds or communities (or as I wrote, “player organizations”) to pull them together and govern themselves. The formation of guilds will resolve the “problem” of anarchy among players.[/quote]
Right. But, what I'm saying is that Founders, in general, will be planning with each other where we want to congregate and cooperate even without being in a formal organization before we ever enter the game.
I think the vision of anarchy you paint in the PDF will be uncommon.
The game won't start in a state of anarchy. Like-minded Founders will strive to start together and build the type of governing Metropolis they hope to live in - regardless of whether they create a formal organization.
And I'm sure pre-established MMORPG guilds will devise a formal plan.
The anarchy will likely show up as the non-Founders flood in, but I expect that Founders will already have their nodes surrounded.
The real sense of anarchy will be the Founders striving to out-influence the masses.
How will we sway the masses just jumping in to support the style of city we hope to create?
[quote]Even as someone who chooses to live in a Divine/Scientific City, it will not make you immune to attack unless your Mayor(s) are a) extremely good at negotiating and convincing would-be attackers to go for someone else, or b) are very popular personalities and it is considered taboo to attack them. For example, nobody in real life would (god forbid) murder the Pope or the Dalai Lama and expect to get away with it in the court of public opinion.[/quote]
So...again, because I'm non-competitive...your vision is odd to me.
Regardless of what type of city I'm in, I expect to be playing with social media friends who are interested in forging a similar lifestyle. Since we'll have common goals from jump... I doubt there will be much incentive for attacks while we're working on forming cities. Especially since we'll be part of the same twitch/youtube/social media clique; not only will we not want to attack each other, clique members who do attack other members will likely be ostracized outside the game. More meta-punishment than in-game punishment, but, I think the deterrent is organically in place before punishment is even a factor.
Where the "Pope" is most likely a twitch streamer we follow, why would we want to kill the "Pope"?
My expectation is that Founders are going to choose which servers they wish to play on.
And probably choose which regions to zone into for the headstart.
I doubt that those I choose to play with will start anywhere near competitive, pre-established mega-guilds.
By Launch day, the Founders should already have several levels under their belts and not have to worry much about surviving PvP with newbies. And we'll be focused on initiating the behaviors that will kickstart our nodes.
To have the kind of anarchy you paint, we would have to have a significant number of pre-established anarchist guilds whose primary focus is to foment chaos at launch.
Anarchy won't be the natural occurrence. Cooperation will be the primary occurrence at the start.
[quote]If you are not interested in dealing with PvP at all, you’re right to say that you still have to be concerned about the defense of your home – and that still makes security a very important concern, if not <strong>the</strong> most important concern among all.
[/quote]
PvP is a core component of Ashes of Creation - it's inescapable.
At the very least, we will have constant PvP conflict - since we will be vying for and controlling specific resources.
How much PvP combat there is in a given region or on a given server remains to be seen. Should vary quite a bit.
Those of us who cherish our homes will have to be concerned about the defense of our homes, regardless of whether it's an NPC attack or a PvP attack. "Interested in dealing with PvP" is simply very low on my totem pole. What I'm interested in - and what I hope most of the people who play on my server are interested in- is supporting my city. And thereby reaping enough benefits to be able to support the region and the world at large.
There will certainly be players and guilds who are focused on combat and Military endeavors. It's certainly not unlikely that we will encounter such players...at some point.
But, I think a better example of soft power in Ashes of Creation is to form an alliance which shuts down key trade/resources a city/guild covets. Depending on the size of the troll guild, of course.
My primary point, though, is that you place to much emphasis on power.
Power is a byproduct. Kinda like breathing.
Yes, breathing is a part of my everyday life, but it's really more of a byproduct than a focus.
I'm not going about my day worrying about how or what I'm going to breath.
Although, it's possible that I'll find myself in situations where I do have to focus on how or what I'm going to breathe.
The day-to-day objectives I have will trickle down to support my breathing, sure. Just as my day-to-day activities in AoC will trickle down to support the "power" of my city. Creating a Metropolis will intrinsically dominate a region. But that's a byproduct, rather than the primary objective.
[quote]Establishing an alliance with a PvP guild/alliance who own a castle, who also agree to defend you in times of need, and in return you may use your Scientific node to grant them the benefit of fast travel is a way of ensuring your security. You won’t be able to pursue your interests in reaping the benefits of living in a Divine/Scientific city if it becomes rubble tomorrow.[/quote]
Again - that is backwards in my view.
If I were the leader of a Divine Metropolis, I would establish an alliance with a Military Metropolis my trading our divine instruments for their military instruments and hope that we both agree to defend our cities so that we can both continue to reap the benefits of our divine and military instruments. An alliance with everyone should benefit everyone.
Defense shouldn't simply rely on military defenses. Divine and Scientific Metropolises should also their own defenses. As well as defenses that the Military Metropolises also desire.
Paladins are going to want armor, too. And soldiers are going to want blessings.
Metropolises should want to cooperate with other for mutual benefit. Yes.
Content like this certainly helps me know who to look out for on the forum in the future.
Content like this certainly helps me know who to look out for on the forum in the future.
[/quote]
Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't get to participate in forums as much as I'd like to, since I have to adult and don't have the time to spend all day lurking on the forums. :P