Instanced Dungeons

So in the Q&A it was mentioned that there will be mostly open world dungeons with a few instanced ones. Can someone explain why Open World is better than instanced? When you get into the "end game" and want to schedule raids etc. Instanced dungeons make this process sooo much better. What am I missing?
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  • Primarily I'd assume its cause it gives a more fluent feeling, you run up to a cave entrance and its a dungeon, no loading and such. I'd assume that bigger raids are instanced, since they said that they want to bring back very large raids. Thats more or less the first few things that come to mind, otherwise I'm not quite sure...
  • Yeah, thats what I'm hoping. I don't mind open-world smaller dungeons etc. but the larger raid dungeons need to be instanced for sure. IMHO
  • Hi fellas,

    Please don't be concerned that instancing is out, it's totally not. We think that open world dungeons are a unique experience, an experience you can *only* get in an MMO, and unfortunately something you just don’t see too much these days. Contested fights add an element of excitement that you just can’t get from instanced dungeons. It also helps the verisimilitude and weight of the world when that dungeon is just *there*. So we want to put some focus and real effort into that experience. We’re fairly certain that we can minimize performance hits in these areas too, so it’s not something we have to shy away from.

    This is a multiplayer game though, and having dungeons be contested puts some strain on our ability to make that content available to everyone, all the time. And that’s where instances help a whole lot, because you can have a huge number of groups running through any given dungeon at the same time thanks to the magic of instancing. You don’t have to wait for a repop of the dungeon, you just hit your own instance, and bam, you and your group are ready to go. This is a powerful thing on the content side, and we're not going to neglect its power.

    So, we’re definitely going to have both - don’t let our strong words about open world dungeons lead you astray. We just think they’re pretty rad. We’ll definitely be balancing what’s available in the open world with instances that folks can attack on the individual, group, and raid size levels. And they’ll be important, and they’ll be awesome.
  • Thanks for the response Jeff! That sounds great all around...
  • [quote quote=1542]
    verisimilitude
    [/quote]
    Gesundheit...

    Also thanks for the reply, completely forgot about repop of dungeons. ESO did it extremely "user friendly" in their public dungeons the boss was basicly soloable, and people just stood around waiting for it all the time. If there was 10 people you needed to get lucky to get a hit in, so please none of that :)
  • Thanks Jeff. I think Both are VERY much needed in an MMO. What I would suggest is allow Instances to also be player made too, for story telling. Though I am not a big fan of Neverwinter because of the combat system, I very much like having different dungeons and player made dungeons because they can add an aspect of not always having the same static content. Now I wouldnt spend a lot of development cycles right now on this aspect. But I would place this as a key to keep instances fresh for the future. Something that you would want a year or 2 after release.


    I also would like to see the Instanced Content to require CC and Support roles like Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW instances were. If not designed like a treadmill like today's dungeons are, instances can be a very fun time. I remember spending a lot of time with my group of friends weekly in different Vanilla WOW TBC WOW Dungeons because it required Teamwork and they were plain out fun.

    My Problem with Dungeons is if you play FFXIV today or WOW, its nothing but a Treadmill. Do X amount of dungeons a week to get your max cap of stones a week so you can buy gear. I want Drops in Dungeons to be powerful but situationally powerful and I dont care that stuff is not balanced, RPGs should never be about being balanced. Its about strengths and weaknesses, I loved WOW when mages didnt use Fire on Ragarnos, or a Commando in Star Wars got our asses handed to us by a bounty hunter who was wearing fire resistant armor.
  • [quote quote=1557]
    Jeffrey wrote:
    verisimilitude


    Gesundheit…

    Also thanks for the reply, completely forgot about repop of dungeons. ESO did it extremely “user friendly” in their public dungeons the boss was basicly soloable, and people just stood around waiting for it all the time. If there was 10 people you needed to get lucky to get a hit in, so please none of that

    [/quote]

    The same was done in SWG and UO. In UO I use to run the shadow wrym lair anytime on wanted to with my bard. If someone was there I would call in my friends and drove that guy out because he couldnt get a kill. That is the bad side of making everything non-instanced. I think with a sandbox game you can do instances and non-instanced dungeons BUT make instances more of a focus on group content, story telling and team work vs the loot treadmill grind of today's MMOs. If you made instances where they would give you a ton more EXP than soloing BUT had no LFD tool AND it required CC, and smaller group pulls and 1 hour to 90 minute time investments people would do these fewer times but still would put aside times with friends to do this content. Pugs will happen BUT will happen naturally and not forced through push button to join automated group finder, wait X minutes, Pop go run content 15 minutes repeat.


    The way I would put it is in SWG we had these open world bases that you can hack and blow up just like player run bases. Problem is 50 people would be in grinding all the mobs all the time and if you got a group of the certain classes you needed to hack the terminals people would just need to run in and click the terminal. There was no fun doing it because you would go in untouched. Now if this was phased where our group would go in and no other players were around it would add challenge and get us good EXP.
  • [quote quote=1542]

    So, we’re definitely going to have both – don’t let our strong words about open world dungeons lead you astray. We just think they’re pretty rad. We’ll definitely be balancing what’s available in the open world with instances that folks can attack on the individual, group, and raid size levels. And they’ll be important, and they’ll be awesome.

    [/quote]

    That is GREAT to hear! Thanks!
  • Maybe devs should make public dungeons like in ESO and of course instanced dungeons, which are harder and then big raids instanced too. I think late PvE contents must be instanced from other world but on the other hand I don't mind everything opened, but I guess many PvE people would be angry. I think albion online is great example of mixing pvp and pve elements to the game.
  • Jeffrey is right about this.

    open world dungeons are a unique experience, an experience you can *only* get in an MMO, and unfortunately something you just don’t see too much these days. Contested fights add an element of excitement that you just can’t get from instanced dungeons. It also helps the verisimilitude and weight of the world when that dungeon is just *there*.

    I haven't seen anything like this in ages.

    Pros:

    It is exciting. Some boss mob spawns. The guild scout yells, you all rush to assemble.
    Its one hell of a unique fight and you get awesome loot.
    There's guild status attached to killing it. "Did you hear that 'guild name' just killed 'boss mob 01' ?" Plus of course there might be a title which you can display alongside your own name. Aalla Destroyer of boss mob 01.
    Its a challenge because unlike instanced dungeons its not something you can rehearse until you get it right.

    Cons:

    You do need someone watching out for these mobs.
    Some other guild has got there first and you miss out.
    Kill stealing.

    A good example was in EQ2. Before a boss mob could spawn the players had to build a portal. In our case the guild built the portal and then another guild got the first hit and killed the boss. All our hard work was for nothing. The devs need to think very carefully about how to address this problem which of course never occurs in instanced zones.
  • The bad thing about open dungeons, the campers. Nothing better than getting your group together to show up to a dungeon that's full of people or others saying "this area is camped already, leave". Or people trying to tag a mob before someone else, it's just a mess. Instanced is the way to go for these reasons alone.
  • Camper have always been a hugh problem with open dungeons like in Ultima Online. A solution could be that a dungeon would "move" and one would need to find hints for its location. So if players "clear" a dungeon, it would not be "repopulated" in a few minutes. Other beasts/monsters would search an other place to start their future rampage from. And if players do not find it early, the dungeon inhabitants would get stronger.
  • Instanced dungeons imo are just clear cut a better way to go. Although I can see why having open world dungeons would be a good thing immersion wise, there would need to be a lot of hurdles to cross to make sure players aren't abusing the mechanics. It's going to be very hard to balance. Especially if "epic loot" is involved, whether it be crafting items or a certain loot table. I could see it going south really quickly. I'm hoping for a dungeon finder assuming the node has unlocked the dungeon or its available in your server.
  • Per Jeffrey's response, this is actually one of the main mechanics that I've been wondering about. The game, so far, and from what I've gathered looks amazing. It has elements that I've been waiting for for a long time. However, one thing I am worried about with open world dungeons would be large guilds or groups of people camping the area, making it impossible for anyone else to get a crack at it.

    I've seen this before, where a large guild will hold an area for hours or even days on end, spamming the content for loot and making sure no one else gets a shot, especially early on when guilds find it essential to outfit their members with gear first and foremost, insuring they get first crack at "end-game" content, and the "obligatory" status of "XYZ dungeon" pioneers. All of this sounds okay and exciting from a developer standpoint because you're looking at it through God-goggles, giggling like school girls at the prospect of the puny humans going bonkers over a little loot. Like thiefsrevenge has stated, in practice, it can be difficult to make checks and balances to alleviate such behavior if in fact, that is even something you care to worry about.
  • [quote quote=6957]Camper have always been a hugh problem with open dungeons like in Ultima Online. A solution could be that a dungeon would “move” and one would need to find hints for its location. So if players “clear” a dungeon, it would not be “repopulated” in a few minutes. Other beasts/monsters would search an other place to start their future rampage from. And if players do not find it early, the dungeon inhabitants would get stronger.[/quote]

    This might be the way to go, make sure you can only find the dungeons by accident, and once its cleared, it no longer populates or even changes Environment. Not only would this promote exploring (which with the current system will hardly occur) it would also make it rare for a guild to be camping this dungeon. IMO it would also make the dungeon more rewarding, because not only do you have to beat it, you'd have to find it first.
    And with the changing environment this certainly is possible.
    I am excited to hear more about this subject :D
  • Please no instanced dungeons. Everything should be open world, to encourage pvp. Since this game seems to be modeled off the old L2, don't fall into the mistakes of the new l2. Total carebear mode.
  • [quote quote=6664]JCons:

    You do need someone watching out for these mobs.
    Some other guild has got there first and you miss out.
    Kill stealing.[/quote]

    You mean actual competition and better organization required to win things? All these things, except kill stealing I guess, should be listed under your pro section of the post.
  • [quote quote=8041]Per Jeffrey’s response, this is actually one of the main mechanics that I’ve been wondering about. The game, so far, and from what I’ve gathered looks amazing. It has elements that I’ve been waiting for for a long time. However, one thing I am worried about with open world dungeons would be large guilds or groups of people camping the area, making it impossible for anyone else to get a crack at it.

    I’ve seen this before, where a large guild will hold an area for hours or even days on end, spamming the content for loot and making sure no one else gets a shot, especially early on when guilds find it essential to outfit their members with gear first and foremost, insuring they get first crack at “end-game” content, and the “obligatory” status of “XYZ dungeon” pioneers. All of this sounds okay and exciting from a developer standpoint because you’re looking at it through God-goggles, giggling like school girls at the prospect of the puny humans going bonkers over a little loot. Like thiefsrevenge has stated, in practice, it can be difficult to make checks and balances to alleviate such behavior if in fact, that is even something you care to worry about.

    [/quote]

    It shouldn't be up to the devs alleviate such behavior, its up to the player base. If some guild is always holding an area and keeping you out, then make a stronger force to go kick them out. Since this is an open world game, and there are no **** factions involved, you can stop things like this from happening. If the other clan is stronger and plays the game better, then they deserve to hold onto the areas.
  • Having quests were you craft/farm currency or farm 'pop' items off of lessor bosses gives the opportunity for individuals or larger guilds to summon bosses at desinated locations. In FFXI it was tiered so you would eventually build a 'pop' item for the mega boss that would drop the higher tier gear/items that everyone was looking for. The down side was the farming could be repetitive but the upside is you didn't need a 18 player alliance to access the best gear in the game. A person could solo or go out with a couple of friends and farm the pop items and then as a guild event the larger groups could take down the mega or better yet that same farming group of 1-3 players could take down the mega if they were skilled and coordinated. I understand a lot of people enjoy the big alliances but imo if you can't complete or participate in everything the game has to offer with 6 or less players it is going to be a huge fail. I have wasted countless hours waiting for alliances to form only to go into an instance and have people not prepared and waste everyone else's time. I've only seen good coordination in the top end guilds/clans and unless you spend more time playing the game then you do participating in real life your not in one of those guilds/clans. I prefer to get online and play with a few friends on the weekends or for a couple hours in the evenings but gave up MMOs because unless I neglected my real life friends and family there was no way to participate in what the games had to offer. Besides the 18+ allainces or groups never made any sense to me.... how often does a person read a fantasy book were there are more than 2-6 heroes in the group...... somehow the author writes the story so smaller groups can go on amazing adventures. Why can't game developers do the same?
  • Join the Ashes of creation discord Community https://discord.gg/v4e8tNk <3
  • [quote quote=1538]Primarily I’d assume its cause it gives a more fluent feeling, you run up to a cave entrance and its a dungeon, no loading and such. I’d assume that bigger raids are instanced, since they said that they want to bring back very large raids. Thats more or less the first few things that come to mind, otherwise I’m not quite sure…

    [/quote]

    This exactly. It's just more immersive/realistic to just encounter a deep cave that ends up being a dungeon with great rewards and difficult enemies with a satisfying to defeat boss at the end.

    But also the bigger raids/dungeons (Especially those that are vital to the story of Ashes) should be instanced, so everyone can experience them without griefers/people constantly trying to complete them while there are already multiple groups trying.
  • Due to the nodes, AoC should not have an end game.
    The nodes should be constantly spitting out a variety of forms encounters based on player activity.
    When that dragon appears to ravage the region, it's nest should not simply be an instance individual groups raid, rinse and repeat.
    Much like a siege on a Metropolis, destroying that dragon's nest should take players in the region weeks or months to defeat - not simply a few hours for one raid.
  • Anarchy online had several open world dungeons and they handled the problem by level locking them so that meant only people who could use the gear could get into them. and everything in the dungeons were NoDrop or BoP. they couldnt be sold or traded even between characters on your account. Some of the drops were the best weapons in the game for 50 or so levels if not the whole game.

    Some of my fondest memories of the Temple of Three Wind were the death trains when people would pull every mob in the Dungeon and train them to the entrance. If you happened to walk in at the wrong time it was sad to be you. Mob corpses were long lasting and after a certain period of time freely lootable by anyone. you could do a temple run and get lucky and just pick up everything on a lucky run or the really hard bosses could one shot you. This is something i would love to relive in another game if they are done right.
  • @J0nSnow ...enjoy that corruption as you murder large groups of people. So you want a game where the guild with the biggest numbers controls everything ? Whats the point of anyone else playing ? I dont think you have quite grasped the fundamental game design. Steven has already said there will be no zergfest domination.

    @crymthann ...You have just level locked content, segregated the community and forced the devs down a road where the only relevent contant is the max level content and thus forced a grind race to max level to get access to the non obsolete content where everone else is at 'endgame'.
    Personally I dont think thats a very smart way to make an MMO.
    It is a great way to build a grind wall and encourage people to use the cash shop instead though.
    There is no endgame here.
  • Instanced allows you to meet more people then just initially running into a dungeon with a pre-made group, I think both should be an option, like TERA, but if they were to have a cut scene for instanced players entering the dungeon I think it would be more immersive. 
  • im so excited for open world dungeons coming back from EQ
  • Open world allows you to meet people.
    Instanced is usually just the group that zones into the dungeon together.
  • Dygz said:
    Open world allows you to meet people.
    Instanced is usually just the group that zones into the dungeon together.
    I prefer open world dungeons but I also hope in that instance we're allowed to benefit off killing a mob regardless of who tagged it first. I'd rather that to queueing endlessly for such mobs/drops. That was the one and only benefit of an instanced dungeon imo.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017

    I don't think Ashes will have tagging.
    When a Spider Demon comes to attack a town, who tagged it first cannot be a factor.

  • I'm pretty sure I heard Steven say in one of the Question and Answer sessions that solo people or small groups can join in on the fun for world bosses or sieges.  Makes sense to me considering the type game this is.   I hope that experience will be allotted per time/hits spent though.  Also I hope Healers get the benefit of good exp for healing.  In years past that wasn't the case. Most games today have that covered though I think. At least those I've played.


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