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Raids and Dungeons

As someone who enjoys good pvp, I also enjoy a really good and in-depth Pve content. Something i see in a lot in MMOs that come out nowadays is the boring instance dungeons which have to be repeated over and over again. I for one would love to see some Raid type pve dungeons that take a few days to beat or even months, stuff that requires mechanics, Teamwork and Gear.


Stuff i would like to see in terms of Raids/Dungeons

- Gear Progression Raids ( meaning, you need this type of Gear threshold to be able to do this raid)

- Raids that take a few days or longer to complete.

- Items that can only be obtained from doing raids/dungeons and cant be crafted.

If anyone has any other ideas/suggestions about raids/dungeons, Feel free to post them down below to discuss what kind of endgame we would like to see in AoC.

Comments

  • These seems like great ideas, but if it get implemented, I wouldn't wanna see crafted gear becoming useless because of the superiority that dungeon/raidgear has a tendency to have. I too really like PvE, but I feel as though it's becomming the main focus of MMO's, and aspects of the game such as crafting or trading becomes a minor and not as profitable and "worth" part of the game.
  • I hope that there are raids which are seen as beginner raids for new players to start off with but then later on someone accidentally discovers something which makes the raid longer or harder than before. Or a dungeon which has been ran through since day 1 by almost every player turns into a raid because of what the players have done to the area around the dungeon entrance.
  • Crafters and non-combat proffesions are going to play a huge role into the game. So i think most gear will be crafted.

    Raids and dungeons will exist, but i doubt the gear "treshold" will become a thing. That doesnt mean the raid/dungeon can't be extremely hard to beat (mechanic wise).

    I prefer extremely hard mechanics over Extreme gear req's.
  • I agree with Gaeleath, hard mechanics > extreme gear requirements.
    And also.. I'd like to see gear transmogrification in the game.

    Cheers!
  • just the notion of gear requirements & gear thresholds makes me want to vomit.
    It encourages discrimination,and often players raise the standard acceptable gear requirements even more than needed.Just because they want most possible reward in the least amount of time.
    I have left guilds for them telling me what to do with gear,always playing with thier main core of members and leaving the newer members out of all the fun
    because their gearscore isn't on par with the established core members.
    In my opinion ,they should eliminate gear importance all together (also to make pvp and pve possible anywhere at anytime you feel like it)
    All the other points I could live with.
    I hope somehow raids and dugeons are just an open area for any player to walk in.But then it would depend on how fast combat is for this to work,
    if groups are about to run at different stages of a huge open world dungeons simultaneously
  • As the head of a potential crafting guild, I fully agree with BraneGames about the raidgear not outperforming crafted equipment. I feel like it would undermine the focus on crafting that Steven seemed to emphasize.
    Maybe higher tier items that can then be used in crafting better equipment would be a better system than raidgear.
    ...
    please?
  • Crafted gear shouldn't out perform raid gear. Both should be on the same level. If it's up to crafting the gear then you lock out most of the people that don't have the money to pay for the gear. Which discourage people to play. Crafted gear should only be used for people that don't want to run raids to get the top tier gear.
  • [quote quote=1772]I prefer extremely hard mechanics over Extreme gear req’s.

    [/quote]

    I agree. This would also help newer, yet experienced players getting into raids. Not as many would end up being left out because of their low itemlevel
  • [quote quote=1813]Crafted gear shouldn’t out perform raid gear. Both should be on the same level. If it’s up to crafting the gear then you lock out most of the people that don’t have the money to pay for the gear. Which discourage people to play. Crafted gear should only be used for people that don’t want to run raids to get the top tier gear.

    [/quote]
    From what I've gathered from Q&As, interviews and videos it seems crafted gear is gonna be the main source of gear, rather than dropped gear. A think the gear dropped from raids is gonna be equal to crafting, given the fact that the economy is basicly build around crafting in general, and if it lost all values the economy would collapse. Furthermore I think they wanna move as far away as possible from the "crafted gear costs way too much", which usually happens when the marked is not competetive. Games like WoW have really expensive crafted gear, which to me mostly seems because there arent enough crafting the gear (+ usually its way worse than everything from PvP/PvE).

    Honestly I'd rather see rare crafting ingredients and the occasional item drop, than the WoW style where a boss drops 4-6 items + some gold. This would make crafters valuable and keep the caravans activity high :)
  • It would be cool if they had bosses like the quests in "The Witcher 3". Your guild or group takes a quests that leads up to a stronger boss out in the wild.
  • I'm not a fan of farming gear, but I do like an interesting dungeon.

    Raiding is a lame excuse for a three day booze up... err, I mean, an inelegant game mechanic that fills in for actual content.
  • Crafted gear should outperform dropped gear. I'm sick of being forced to PvE - especially when it isn't even good. There are too many mmos without usefull crafting professions. You usually make your money whenever a new server is opened and afterwards everybody jumps on the same 1-2 crafting professions that are still somewhat usefull for consumables and similar stuff.

    I usually play all available game modes, but most mmos suffer from the same problem over and over again: you get the best gear in PvE. In this case crafting gets rather uninteresting - as I already mentioned - and PvP players are forced to play PvE just to be able to compete in PvP.
  • [quote quote=1959]Crafted gear should outperform dropped gear. I’m sick of being forced to PvE – especially when it isn’t even good.

    [/quote]
    But that would just make PvE obsolete... Why not make it so the base stats are equal to crafted base stats, and then make some improvement system that works on both crafted and dropped gear. That way both gamemodes make sense, and you can kinda get a "headstart" with PvE, but its not really needed.
    But again this also depends on the crafting system, droprate and if ingredients are dropped by dungeon/raid bosses.

    EDIT: I btw feel you so much, I need an MMO with meaning full crafting all the way to late game.
  • in most games nowadays gear has made the content obsolete.

    Content should be about funtimes,but people get distracted by the gear shenanigans.
    Pretty much like how they get distracted by their smartphones nowadays while they could be having quality times with friends/family.
    <img src="https://esl.culips.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SS5_tech_addiction.jpg" alt="" />
    It is a pitty
  • I think dungeon gear and crafted gear should be on the same level. The item stats and could be tweaked on the dungeon gear depending on how many times you can run it and what the drop rates are like. Also maybe allow crafted gear stats to be tweaked by the crafter, I would like to see some crafters famous for their works and not just every crafter be on the same level.

    For raids I would like to see rare crafting materials drop that are needed to make the top tier gear. Also maybe have a super rare weapon that can drop form the end boss, but give it a crazy drop chance like WoW legendary weapons (not the new ones but the old ones that can make someone go crazy).
  • [quote quote=1985]
    For raids I would like to see rare crafting materials drop that are needed to make the top tier gear. Also maybe have a super rare weapon that can drop form the end boss, but give it a crazy drop chance like WoW legendary weapons (not the new ones but the old ones that can make someone go crazy).
    [/quote]
    i agree with you there, raids should drop mats for the crafted gear this would make a good trade market between PvPers, PvEers and crafters. and again i agree with the legendary weapons, why would it be a legendary weapon when 90% of the server has it?
  • The idea that gear from crafters will be best is not bad.

    The only thing im would be feard about is: What if a player starts a mounth or a year after release?
    Can he afford the gear or does he need to catch up the mounths?
    I think it would be a good idea to insert some catch up mechanics so ppl who start later can catch up faster.

    I know ppl who worked hard for theyr stuff want to have an advantage over ppl who did not put so much time in it.
    But the thing most new ppl ask: Can i catch up? And in what time?

    A way in doing so would be for exemple to have like a basic gear than blue gear and you can upgrade that to purple or orange gear with raid matirials.
    In the raid also much of the stuff you needed to make the blue gear drops so a new player can buy cheaper that stuff when its later in the game .

    Ofc they should also ad something wich prefents scaming when you for exemple give a crafter your gear to upgrade.
  • Is it some sense of entitlement that makes people want to have an advantage over people that can't put as much time in the game?
    Also the "catching up" part is so engraved in the minds of mmo players lately that they'd call anyone who would enjoy content a slacker.
    Its like they love the gear more than the mmo genre itself.
    If the devs are the "music makers" they are the ones that do not really care for music(content) at all
    The problem is that gear is at the forefront,not the community.120 desirably, cause thats where all the fun is at right?
    It gives players reasons to discriminate,the opposite of reasons to interact more.
    For years this has been the elephant in the room,but nobody can blame them for it is the only thing they are used to.
    When grandfather is at the deathbed,nobody would dream of catching up.
    Enjoying the moments when you have them is most important,also when looking to gaming.
    If you enter a game with the mindset "I have to catch up"(ignoring content,story,...)
    The burnout will catch up eventually with you way faster.
  • I think it would be great if the crafters could improve the raid gear. that way they would have to seek crafters out. maybe even that they could not equip raid drops until a crafter "fitted" the items to the character
  • I see a couple ways this can be done better in terms of gear.
    They can do what GW2 is where all the armor is the same, from crafting or from raiding, the only difference will bow how it looks.
    Or they can do what DAoC did using max level 50 as an example. You can raid and get awesome looking weapons and armor with unique effects and such, or you can craft a piece, with a chance of it being higher than max level as a blank slate. You could then get another profession to add gems to it which add your stats and effects. If you aren't high enough or unlucky enough though, you blow up and die while adding the gems. That was always fun to see.

    In terms of Raiding and dungeons, what really pisses me off with most modern MMOS is that Dungeons are all you have to group up, you can't explore them solo.

    I really really enjoyed DAoC's system, especially within the first couple of expansions, you had your normal dungeons you could go into and explore and kill mobs, and then you had your raid dungeons. DAoC had open dungeons, no instances, it was a process even to get into some of the dungeons itself.
    If I am able to explore at least even the beginning of some dungeons solo I would be very happy.
  • Personally hopes what compaign in dungeon(since for me it's also part of mysterious world) would be like expedition with certain features:
    >secret places
    >complex miltifloor structure
    >motivation for exploring (ex. collect all parts of old magic key for ancient tomb from different places or smaller dungeons /caves for better loot etc.)
    >traps and hidden stash
    >some dungeons should be linked in dungeons system (like some sort of ancient canalization)
    >some dungeons should have a few entrance/exits(from dif. locations),which could be also hidden/disguised
    >unexpected uniq. mobs and other unpleasant surprises((disease/poisoning/provisions deficit etc).
    >some riddles/puzzles with tips from open world sources ( dif. lore scrolls, books, statues, grave inscription etc.)
  • [quote quote=2401]Is it some sense of entitlement that makes people want to have an advantage over people that can’t put as much time in the game?
    Also the “catching up” part is so engraved in the minds of mmo players lately that they’d call anyone who would enjoy content a slacker.
    Its like they love the gear more than the mmo genre itself.
    If the devs are the “music makers” they are the ones that do not really care for music(content) at all
    The problem is that gear is at the forefront,not the community.120 desirably, cause thats where all the fun is at right?
    It gives players reasons to discriminate,the opposite of reasons to interact more.
    For years this has been the elephant in the room,but nobody can blame them for it is the only thing they are used to.
    When grandfather is at the deathbed,nobody would dream of catching up.
    Enjoying the moments when you have them is most important,also when looking to gaming.
    If you enter a game with the mindset “I have to catch up”(ignoring content,story,…)
    The burnout will catch up eventually with you way faster.

    [/quote]

    We are conditioned more an more by schools government and business that all there is to life is to be the best.
    Those best become the elite that live the life of luxury at the expense and off the backs off everyone else.
    Everyone else is not worthy and thrown on the scrapheap.
    It is psychological conditioning to enable a limited set of people the live a life of opulence and privilege.
    It is the predator mentality, adapt or die, kill or be killed. Only one can survive.

    In contrast, the concept of humanity and civilisation is constructed by the herd mentality.
    Those with a social conscience that realise mutual success is also a path for personal success.
    These do not recognise superiority. Only equality through balanced individuality.
    No one is the best at everything....only what they specialise in.
    So no one has any more net worth than the person standing next to them.
    Everyone is both unique and special.

    Law of the jungle vs civilisation. Take your pick.
    Business is run on the premise on the law of the jungle.
    Government should be run on the premise of the herd, but is instead ruled by business too.
    So society suffers, business and government hated, as civilisation dies around us.

    So your point about vertical progression with gear and power is nail on head the problem with modern society.
    It follows the supremacy concept of the predator.

    In contrast we have the horizontal progression systems based on individuality without the supremacy.
    But it still allows lots of modular vertical progression.
    More options rather than ever more power.

    We could of course take the realistic approach where everything is at its prime in midlife only,
    then decays into uselessness and eventual death.
    Its recycling (enforced need through decay) that drives the economy after all.
  • It's always interesting to watch the early days of an MMO reveal, as the same topics always bubble right up to the top... !

    I feel like this thread has 2 of the most popular of those topics going:

    <strong>Raids & Dungeons</strong> - the gameplay roles and mechanics
    <strong>Loot</strong> - How is it acquired? Which path gives the best? How can players catch up? etc!

    The only real question about AoC I have at this point is the stated intention on "vertical" progression…and what that means for how we will play the game. Will we have repeated instanced dungeons? I understand why those can be good; it can be extremely satisfying to finally get an item you wanted randomly handed to you, and one of the key reasons games like WoW turned the loot drip into a science! I do think there are other ways to do it, but I'd prefer to let Steven get the game he has in is head out there first, and let play testing guide the iteration!

    <strong>Warning:</strong> lots of text incoming :(

    <strong>Instanced vs. Non-Instanced</strong>

    Instances are great because they allow for a finely tuned gameplay experience for everyone.
    Instances are terrible because they allow for a finely tunes gameplay experience for everyone.

    :)

    The TL, DR version of my thoughts on this… I’d prefer “old-school” non-instanced dungeons that are so huge, you may not ever see the bottom of or run into other players that might be in there.

    Instances were an evolution of those dungeons that basically sanded the rough edges off of them - so it’s not as if open world dungeons aren’t without problems! You might even be justified to ask what the difference between an open world dungeon and a “zone” might be… :)

    The biggest reason for me to have these dungeon destinations be in the open world (especially tied with the looting principles below) they have opportunity to become very social, and either cooperative or competitive (ERMAGHERD EMERGENT!).

    <strong>Drop vs. Crafted</strong>

    This is definitely a hard one to balance. If items are a source of power, players will go down whatever the easiest path is to acquire them. If crafted items are where the power is, players would ignore the "dungeons". And on the opposite side, if monster drops are the best, crafting is relegated to another progress bar of little value. (I'm generalizing here, but that seems to be the mentality of a large swath of players groomed by WoW and similar games.)

    So if vertical progression is in, and "items" are the source of it... what do we do?

    The TL, DR version of my thoughts are is:
    - Player-driven economy (all* items created by players)
    - Decay and destruction of items (including perishability for food-type items)
    - Loot drops would be a rare, RARE occurrence, but when it happens, they would be the best items
    - Loot drops would be more fragile, and unrepairable (how can you repair Glamdring, it’s magical! etc)

    The idea to keep loot drops a driver of content but crafted items very relevant would be to make the loot very rare, more powerful and very breakable. The idea would be that if a player was lucky enough to have an artifact like Glamdring, they might only bring it out for special fights… as it runs the risk of breaking. The crafted stuff would be the everyday item source, and they too could be quite good if output from a skilled master craftsman.

    WoW players would of course flip out at the idea of their Purple sword of doom shattering in a million pieces after running a dungeon repetitively for weeks or months to get it. But that’s just because of how the game is set up. Even though that’s a “grind” it’s a fun gameplay loop and hugely satisfying when you randomly get what you were seeking. But hopefully that’s where a player-driven design in AoC could help, because those loot drops would not be a rule, but a rare exception. Truly making acquisition of such an item a story worth telling (or perhaps placing in our town Museum as discussed in the other thread ;)

    On a related note, having just “materials” drop for the crafted items doesn’t seem to usually work out, because bigger powerful guilds will feed those items directly to their own crafters and they never enter the true marketplace. Maybe that’s intended and maybe that’s ok, but it feels like it would go against the social/economic goals of AoC, in some sense.

    I am so sorry for all the words…
  • @Lethality
    You mean with more item power comes more rarity and volatility ?
    Like a highly tuned tool stressed to the limit ?
  • I think there should be Crafted gear as the best, but you don't only have to PvE and do dungeons, but explore the world and find the materials as well as venture into PvP contested areas to earn/gather them as well. If you don't want to do that, then the PvP players could do it for you. It would be nice for the economy since I know there are people only willing to do PvE and craft.
  • [quote quote=2465]<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/lethality/" rel="nofollow">@lethality</a>
    You mean with more item power comes more rarity and volatility ?
    Like a highly tuned tool stressed to the limit ?

    [/quote]

    Yep, that is one aspect of it... so those items are then allowed to be more powerful but cannot be every-day and "forever" items, keeping items from other sources (crafting) relevant as the every-day stuff.

    A lot of this has to do with the plan for power progression Intrepid has though! For example Black Desert is very flat gear progression, and AoC could follow that type of model.
  • So if there is an extremely powerful item it will only be able to be used so much? Is that what you are getting here? Because that would sound very interesting. Because I know in games like BDO, I kind of hated just sitting on the same piece of gear forever never to have any improvement.
  • [quote quote=2483]So if there is an extremely powerful item it will only be able to be used so much? Is that what you are getting here? Because that would sound very interesting. Because I know in games like BDO, I kind of hated just sitting on the same piece of gear forever never to have any improvement.

    [/quote]

    Exactly! It would be very high powered but very volatile because of that... in could break, and once it does, it's gone forever.

    You could even have a mechanic where using it somehow otherwise negatively affects your character... think The One Ring and what it did to Frodo... powerful, but dangerous!
  • One thing I also would like about open world dungeons ,is that it does away with the need for a dungeonfinder.
    Instead of entering an instanced bubble,groups are formed naturally when you are inside the open world dungeon.And its perhaps in times of need that lasting friendships are created.
    There would have to be certain mechanics in place to counter the bad;boss camping by other groups.So perhaps they have to phase that so there is a dead boss version of every boss room.
    Think I've mentioned this all before somewhere,not sure where though
    Open world dungeons might even scale to the size of raids ,if enough players are present to open a magically-locked door that requires a ritual with 40 people for example.
    That way players never have to beg endlessly in chat to do a certain dungeon/raid;they can just go there and see who they'll meet now & how many people.
    This way,it also follows what the devs say they believe in:organic events in a reactive world where the importance of making friends is brought to the forefront.
    I would certainly be more in favor of a horizontal progression system based on individuality without supremacy @Rune_relic

    And to pick up on what @Lethality and @Michael mentions about powerful items being very volatile,breaking once gone forever:
    Whatever happened to the good old games where rare loots often had a nice wicked curse attached to them?(often you couldn't unequip those items that were cursed)
    With the positive there needs to be a negative to maintain balance
  • @Tipsytoo
    I dont really have a problem with duality applied to both gear and skills, in fact I made a similar suggestion myself :)
    But I dont mind the volatile concept either to be honest. It does fit well with the recycle/create/maintain/destroy season/node cycle.

    @lethality @michael
    It may be a thought to use both.
    eg. Have duality for gear/weapons/skills....but also have volatility scale from normal to legendary gear.
    This ensures balance, ensures rarity scales quality, but also ensures that crafting is always required and driven too.
    But then you would upset a lot of people if legendary gear was ridiculously expensive as well as hyper volatile.
    Workable though i guess, if done carefully, and applies equally to everyone.

    I could live with it quite happily personally, depending on the lifespans used.
    I dont think evryone would want to replace legendary gear every day.
    /cringes.
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