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Crafting Method (not to be confused with Crafting System :P)
ArchivedUser
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Not to be confused with the other Crafting System thread (which is really more about resource gathering than crafting).
I'm curious as to what kind of crafting method/system people would be interested in seeing in the game. For example, would it be fixed-recipe based, where item A + item B = item C. Or would it be based on the ingredients stats / types (and crafter's skill of course)?Like iron ingot + light-wood plank = something-or-another weapon.
It's been confirmed that different kinds of crafting stations are gonna be a thing, so obviously that'll be taken into consideration. So maybe one combination of ingredients would result in different items or just wouldn't work depending on the crafting station used. But would certain types of items only be usable in certain stations? Who knows.
I'm wondering what other people are thinking.
I'm curious as to what kind of crafting method/system people would be interested in seeing in the game. For example, would it be fixed-recipe based, where item A + item B = item C. Or would it be based on the ingredients stats / types (and crafter's skill of course)?Like iron ingot + light-wood plank = something-or-another weapon.
It's been confirmed that different kinds of crafting stations are gonna be a thing, so obviously that'll be taken into consideration. So maybe one combination of ingredients would result in different items or just wouldn't work depending on the crafting station used. But would certain types of items only be usable in certain stations? Who knows.
I'm wondering what other people are thinking.
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A * n1 + B * n2 * crafting skill = ??? (where n is amount)
Example: I'd assume 1 iron bar + 1 stick/wood would become a dagger, but theres no way to be sure before I do it. Your crafting skill then affects the stats, success rate, name (shaggy, exquisite, poor, good etc.) etc. And even after you did it, you might not "remember" depending on your crafting skill. An iron dagger is easy to remember yourself, but later on it might get though, so if you can't remember why would your character?
I'd really like to see some mastery of items, so if you craft only iron daggers, then at some point you get 10% stat boost (or something), due to the fact that you are starting to master the art of this.
If we really talk crafting dreams then I'd really want some alloy mixing mechanic, where you can mix match as you see fit. Maybe this could be done by assigning different hidden "stats" to materials and a few dependants. So if you mix 2 iron ore and 1 copper you get something with betterdurability than iron, but worse damage (copper adds rust resistance, even though the material would be softer). Or instead of mixing alloys, it could also be something along the lines of: I want iron as the cutting egde, but copper as backbone. Basicly someway to mix different materials would be awesome :)
The biggest problem I see with this is from a balancing standpoint, its gonna be a nightmare to balance :(
That'd be amazing. Do you think the balancing issue would be solved by limiting the minimum concentration of metal per alloy? Like maybe you can use at most 3 ingots of whatever metal in an alloy, resulting in a minimum concentration of 33% of any single type of metal. So in your example, we get 3 ingots of 33% copper and 67% iron
[quote quote=1835] I don’t like the “Random” aspect in crafting. [/quote]
I agree. Crafters with the same crafting skill using the same amount of the same ingredients in the same crafting station should produce the same item.
But I wonder about what kind of system will be used to determine what item combinations produce what, and how.
[/quote]
I didnt really mean that it should be random, more like you dont have recipes you remember instantly, instead you learn them over time. The outcome will only vary depending on your crafting skill, and maybe how much you have done that certain item/combination before (the mastery I was talking about) :) .
I just don't want a system like WoW where you grind a certain item for 40 levels, then another one and in the mean time you learn 50 completely useless and random items. When you then finally grind to max level, every item sucks :(
A * n1 + B * n2 * crafting skill = ??? (where n is amount)
Example: I’d assume 1 iron bar + 1 stick/wood would become a dagger, but theres no way to be sure before I do it. Your crafting skill then affects the stats, success rate, name (shaggy, exquisite, poor, good etc.) etc. And even after you did it, you might not “remember” depending on your crafting skill. An iron dagger is easy to remember yourself, but later on it might get though, so if you can’t remember why would your character?
I’d really like to see some mastery of items, so if you craft only iron daggers, then at some point you get 10% stat boost (or something), due to the fact that you are starting to master the art of this.
If we really talk crafting dreams then I’d really want some alloy mixing mechanic, where you can mix match as you see fit. Maybe this could be done by assigning different hidden “stats” to materials and a few dependants. So if you mix 2 iron ore and 1 copper you get something with betterdurability than iron, but worse damage (copper adds rust resistance, even though the material would be softer). Or instead of mixing alloys, it could also be something along the lines of: I want iron as the cutting egde, but copper as backbone. Basicly someway to mix different materials would be awesome <img alt="?" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2/svg/1f642.svg" />
The biggest problem I see with this is from a balancing standpoint, its gonna be a nightmare to balance <img alt="?" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2/svg/1f641.svg" />
[/quote]
This is a really interesting and good idea! I'd love to play around with it ingame!
Thing that bothers me most is meaningless material that are found everywhere...and random styles that just exist.
Every material must have a unique time and a place....and with it a specific local style.
You expect races to belong to specific locations, prefer specific materials, create in specific styles.
All of which need unique properties.
What if you could combine different styles and materials when you have mastered the localised ones...with success and failure by experience ?
Then crafters really do get to create their own signature weapons and armour etc.
Alloys could be an extension of the hyrbrid crafting skill developed by trial and error masters.
What if various classes could come together to craft relics ?
ie, a blacksmith may need a cleric or mage on hand to imbue such a thing.
Maybe even a specific race of mage
Making rituals and spells part of group crafting.
Such relics would gain renown and gain reputation enough to be coveted and thought over.
Driving a quest system.
You would need multiple relics to satisfy an MMO, but they would all have to be very rare or unique.
Where only one or a few could ever exist in the world at any time.
Failure rate could be high and the cost prohibitive with possession temporary.
Now say that such a relic is the only thing that can kill a certain boss or just weaken them ?
And such a boss only comes into existence as a side effect of the creation of said artefact.
Perhaps you may even need a combination of relics to do the job properly.
What if various classes could come together to craft relics ?
ie, a blacksmith may need a cleric or mage on hand to imbue such a thing.
Maybe even a specific race of mage
Making rituals and spells part of group crafting.
Such relics would gain renown and gain reputation enough to be coveted and thought over.
Driving a quest system.
You would need multiple relics to satisfy an MMO, but they would all have to be very rare or unique.
Where only one or a few could ever exist in the world at any time.
Failure rate could be high and the cost prohibitive with possession temporary.
Now say that such a relic is the only thing that can kill a certain boss or just weaken them ?
And such a boss only comes into existence as a side effect of the creation of said artefact.
Perhaps you may even need a combination of relics to do the job properly.
[/quote]
That sounds awesome, just to add a few ideas:
* Relics could be placed in a node-hall/town-hall to grant some small bonus in the region.
* They would be a one time deal, only one of a certain items drops once (or something like that).
* Most relics would be placed down/ not used by a certain player, but some could be "war relics" used in a battle and gone forever. Like the horn of someone that once blown gives a 25% stat boost in a hour, could be real op, but also a one time use.
* Instead of the boss coming as a side effect of creating the relic, what about instead a random NPC come into town and tells you that a dragon is gonna come down from the mountains, and hands you recipe to the only weapon that will kill it.
In general multicrafting/rituals sounds really fun, but if it is also used in regular crafting of gear, it might limit the gameplay way too much :( But for special items it would be awesome :)
The notion of finding a node that activates a sequence of events...or stumbing on a way to create a relic/artefact and update a node, both suit me fine.
The Node hall aspect of node bonuses with such a relic is also an excellent idea.
What if you had to choose between the node bonus a relic gives or fighting the nemesis that comes with the relic ?
Tough choices are what make the game interesting no ?
Desire vs Sacrifice. Risk vs Reward. Opinion and fine/heated arguments about whats best for the group.
It all adds to the drama....and tension....and the ever evolving storyline.
<em>'Some things are best left buried and forgotten!'</em>
Whispered a chilling, haunted, distant voice.
<strong>Is this not the very thing that the title 'ashes of creation' aspires to ?</strong>
The mystery of how this place came to be in its present state.
A land of golden opportunity or a deadly menace in wait ?
The notion of finding a node that activates a sequence of events…or stumbing on a way to create a relic/artefact and update a node, both suit me fine.
The Node hall aspect of node bonuses with such a relic is also an excellent idea.
What if you had to choose between the node bonus a relic gives or fighting the nemesis that comes with the relic ?
Tough choices are what make the game interesting no ?
Desire vs Sacrifice. Risk vs Reward. Opinion and fine/heated arguments about whats best for the group.
It all adds to the drama….and tension….and the ever evolving storyline.
<em>‘Some things are best left buried and forgotten!’</em>
Whispered a chilling, haunted, distant voice.
<strong>Is this not the very thing that the title ‘ashes of creation’ aspires to ?</strong>
The mystery of how this place came to be in its present state.
A land of golden opportunity or a deadly menace in wait ?
[/quote]
First of all could you write a short story/poem about decision in AoC in the lore section, that be awesome ;)
Secondly I like the discussion aspect you put into it, and the "can i really trust my friends" part of it. I bet at somepoint if it was implemented, that a guildmaster would just ninja a relic and go get the rare loot from the boss, that would be "awesome"/horrible aspect of the game. But as you say its all about decisions. This idea also goes well with the decisive/permanent part of the node system, which was shortly talked about in the Q&A (or interview, not sure).
Yes I agree. I dont think there is any way you coudl use team crafting for everyday armour and weapons…only for special, one off, ultra rare items (although siege weaponry may be valid).
The notion of finding a node that activates a sequence of events…or stumbing on a way to create a relic/artefact and update a node, both suit me fine.
The Node hall aspect of node bonuses with such a relic is also an excellent idea.
What if you had to choose between the node bonus a relic gives or fighting the nemesis that comes with the relic ?
Tough choices are what make the game interesting no ?
Desire vs Sacrifice. Risk vs Reward. Opinion and fine/heated arguments about whats best for the group.
It all adds to the drama….and tension….and the ever evolving storyline.
<em>‘Some things are best left buried and forgotten!’</em>
Whispered a chilling, haunted, distant voice.
<strong>Is this not the very thing that the title ‘ashes of creation’ aspires to ?</strong>
The mystery of how this place came to be in its present state.
A land of golden opportunity or a deadly menace in wait ?
</blockquote>
First of all could you write a short story/poem about decision in AoC in the lore section, that be awesome ?
Secondly I like the discussion aspect you put into it, and the “can i really trust my friends” part of it. I bet at somepoint if it was implemented, that a guildmaster would just ninja a relic and go get the rare loot from the boss, that would be “awesome”/horrible aspect of the game. But as you say its all about decisions. This idea also goes well with the decisive/permanent part of the node system, which was shortly talked about in the Q&A (or interview, not sure).
[/quote]
Ironically I wasnt even thinking about killing the boss to to get the loot.
I was thinking about the nemesis being such an ongoing threat and menace to the group....is it really worth keeping the relic for the group bonus ? Or do you weigh the pros and cons and decide to be done with it and kill the monster and end the horrors it bought with it..sacrificing the bonuses that come with the relic ?
Buff = Group Bonuses....Penalty = Endlessly harrassed and terrorised group.
Perhaps the make up is military and strong enough to take the bonus and suffer the constant threat.
Perhaps the make up is economic with little in the means of defence that needs to kill the threat to survive.
Duality...... the positive and the negative side. How will your group weigh the odds and what will be in your groups best interests.
Do you want the item to ensure a bigger threat from your enemies never gets it hands on it and makes them even more powerful ?
Perhaps such relic bonuses are race or class specific.
I'm a big fan of many things influencing or modifying the crafting output:
- tools (axe, saw, etc)
- equipment (lathe, forge, etc)
- facilities (workshop. house, etc)
- uniform (clothing, accessories)
@Julemanden covered something I haven't really seen since SWG - materials having their own properties and influence on crafting output.. <strong>This is something I'd *very* much like to see</strong>... and his example was an easy one to understand! To expand...
<strong>Iron has these attributes:</strong> strong, dense, prone to rust decay, heavy
<strong>Copper has these attributes</strong>: light, resistant to rust, conductive, soft
Using an alloy of Iron and Copper would allow the crafter to customize the dagger to his (or his customer's) requirements! The crafter's experience (and tools, and equipment, and facilities and uniform) will influence the item's<strong> craftsmanship rating</strong>... the quality of the materials used will influence the items <strong>performance rating (stats)</strong> and those things (maybe some others, such as regional design influences) will ultimately determine the rarity of that crafted item.
This also sort of introduces the concept of material hierarchy...
If the Recipe for a dagger takes 1 unit of metal and 1 unit of wood, I'd like to have flexibility in the type of metal and wood I choose to use.
Metal
- Iron (Black Iron of the Chasm, Winter Iron, etc
- Copper
- Tin
- Etc
Wood
- Pine (Whispering Forest Pine, Mountain Top Pine, etc)
- Oak
- Maple
- Etc
Scenario: A specific Recipe I learn from an old elven craftsman might call for not only his regional design (which he would train me to produce) but also very specific wood and metal types, possibly only found in his region. And of course, elven tools and equipment and facilities and clothing would also contribute... and even specific elven materials of varying quality :)
Sure, I could trapse off to the dwarf lands and acquire similar wood and ore there, but it wouldn't truly have the same potential outcome as if I created the recipe with authentic elven materials.
I know I'm getting rambly here, and I certainly don't claim this would be an easy system to design (or build (or balance!)) But I've long had this crafting system pent up in my head and would love to see it realized some day... !
Next up, I'll talk about my merchant fantasies ;)
<strong>Copper has these attributes</strong>: light, resistant to rust, conductive, soft
[/quote]
Actually copper is heavier than iron, but otherwise its true :) If you want light metal it would be aluminium (except that is a "newly" discovered metal) or titanium (also "new" by relative standards). It might be easier for the sake of sanity to just go with the good ol' mithril, in games its often described as hard and light, to good qualities :)
Other than that I really like your ideas, regional designs/possibilities sounds awesome, and give exploration a whole new meaning. But if recipes get "rare" in the sense that you have to travel to learn them, make it so after you made a number of the item, you get the ability to pass on the knowlegde :)
I think it would be good if it was not only get 1 iron and 1 wood to make a dagger but instead you have different standart blueprints that decide the form of the item, like a Dagger, a Sword, an Axe, Sandals, Boots, and so on.
You then decide for the materials:
For example for the boots you could use leather you got from the bunnys in the starting area, this leather is rather thin so the defensive attributes are not as good but if you use thick leather from the boars a bit farther north the defensive abilities becomme much better, you could also use leather from a whater monster to make it more water resistante, but in exchange it will dry up faster and the damage of fire attacks is higher, or use leather that is very rough to a degree that it will actually increase kicking damage.
Same for Weapons you can decide if you want to make a sword out of Iron, cooper or steel and all of these swords will look very similiar but will have different stats depending on the materials used.
That should also go for cooking: lets say I make a fish sandwich, some white bread, some tuna, maybe one or two salad leaves, a sauce (mayo?), then this andwich will have stats depending on the ingredients i used. But if I change since: for example use full grain Bread, a trout, no salad, some onions and pickles, as well as a different sauce (ketchup?) it will still be a Fish sandwich but the stats will differ from the first one.
Next one is the crafting proceß itself:
Depending on the equipment and the way I choose to craft my Item some things should change.
First Quality: An item should have a base line, for example a Copper dagger has 5 damage, now with increasing the quality by 50% you can increase the damage to 6 and increasing it by 100% will increase the damage to 7, note that I did not make the damage times 2 with 100% because I don't want 100% to totally outscale 0% weapons they should be better, but just by a bit. Theorethically if a craftman really outlevels this certain piece of craft he should be able to increase the cuality above 100% but with diminishing returns, so lets say getting to 140% will not increase the damage by 0,8 but instead will only give something around 0,1. The important thing for me here is that the Quality is not simply 0% or 100%, but that a 10% quality Item is still better then a 0% item even if it is just a little.
The next step would be little extras:
To forfeit extra quality for special stats.
You can reach 100% quality on this specific item? Why not only go for 80% Quality and also increase the durability a bit? Or make it so that this dagger has a better chance to inflict bleeding. You want some elemental damage on your Weapon? Sure insert this fire crystall on the cost of some quallity.
There could even be some speciall abilities crafted into weapons, maybe in the form of runes. For example, every 30 sec you can shoot out a fire ball drom your sword, or getting some live stealing on it that heals you for a small percentage of the damage done.
These runes could be speciallized for each crafter, so a blacksmith would have different runes then a Carpenter and then different crafters could help each other out with crafting their runes into someone elses work (coop crafting?).
For example lets say we have acarpenter crafting a bow and he wants live stealing on it, so he then goes to his Blacksmith buddy and they work on this together, now he has an aditionall idea and brings his Goldsmith budy in as well, that guy can craft a rune that distributes positive effects onto the party member that needs this effect most. They then combine the two runes and the bow in a way that the healing gained by the life stealing bow will be distributed within the party towards the party member with the lowest amount of health. <----This example might be a bit over the top, but i thing it would be a cool mechanik (albeit maybe hard to balance)
Harvesting example....the core of a rare type of tree is highly sought after, but the core is only viable when the tree is fully mature...and at least six feet in diameter. The only way to harvest such a tree is through the use of a two-person saw which actually has to be wielded simultaneously by two skilled loggers.
Okay...so how to translate that to crafting?
The forging of a blade from certain types of rare metals requires two smiths, one master and one at least apprentice level. Whether both are striking the blade in concert, or one is tempering it while the other strikes is something that might not be relevant in practice, but the concept makes sense, and it would make crafting more social, which I think it could badly use. Perhaps the creation of truly epic items might require the joint efforts of three or more artisans. Not to each create separate components but grouped together and working in concert to assemble those components. With no idea of the planned mechanics, I can't say if this is feasible here, but to me, it would represent a sea-change in MMORPG crafting and hopefully one that most would appreciate.
so i want to give my thoughts on how i always wished crafting to be, maybe someone can get somethign out of it:
basically the entire crafting i see in 2 specific steps. First the Design of the item and Second the process of actually crafting it. at best the crafting would be a kind of precision minigame, that actually will be very very hard to master perfectly, if not impossible. this mini game will get easier, if your blacksmith skills up, giving you a chance to reach very high perfection, making the item desirable and also something to brag about (if the item actually tells you, who built it, like: "Player <Hattori Hanso's> Handcrafted Two-Hander":
For the design part:
The items has 3 or 4 different parts. a sword for example has a handle, a blade, enchantment items and the hand protection or bulb at the end of the handle. you can swap these different items for your own mix you see fit the best.
All the different parts yield different bonuses. So, while crafting your Sword, you can choose between the Accuracy bonus of handle A, or maybe the heavier handle B with the strengh bonus. Having 4 different Forms of 4 Different parts already gives you a variability for your sword. Finding special (ancient) parts or upgraded or optimized designs also add new variation to mix into.
On top of that, based on your crafting mastery, you have a max cap on points to spend. Some parts are less effective, but also use less points. getting rid of a good hand protection gives you more points to spend on the blade, etc.
So at least at first, your swords will have to go with some downsides, so ensure the one desirable part with the high-end bonus. As a master you might have enough points to spend to give an overall high-quality sword, but there are yet more things to consider, like the process of crafting the sword itself....
For the process part:
what i always thought to give each item its own individuality, is creating the issue, that there is no "perfectly crafted sword" . No matter the crafting mechanic, based on minigames or not, the result of the procedure should be optimized only to a certain point, but (almost) never really perfect. so having a "95% optimized" sword, should be something rare and decent. having most swords, by new blacksmiths be somewhat around 70% , and maybe 80% at most, when they manage to be very good in their process (which while i would go with a minigame, it would also work with a whole other different factor, like the time spent or the use of material/tools, or anything else). So you can not only have a set of different mixtures of item-parts, that give a sword some specifics like magic/accuracy/strength/etc. boost or all of it combined, but also have the sword to be from "poorly crafted" to "perfectly balanced" giving additional stat boni or different durabilities etc, creating another layer of depth in the individuality of it.
So, even low lvl smiths can be "talented" and create a decent 85% beginner's sword, while master smith's might have a bad day and create a poorly made high-lvl sword, that he might want to melt in and retry forging, because he did not like to have the durability penalty of it. Or the other way around, someone can buy a poorly made high-end sword with the durability penalty for less money, etc.
combined with the name of the crafter, this would give you even some fame, as you will be known for "the guy who always makes 90%+ swords".
Ironically I wasnt even thinking about killing the boss to to get the loot.
I was thinking about the nemesis being such an ongoing threat and menace to the group….is it really worth keeping the relic for the group bonus ? Or do you weigh the pros and cons and decide to be done with it and kill the monster and end the horrors it bought with it..sacrificing the bonuses that come with the relic ?
Buff = Group Bonuses….Penalty = Endlessly harrassed and terrorised group.
Perhaps the make up is military and strong enough to take the bonus and suffer the constant threat.
Perhaps the make up is economic with little in the means of defence that needs to kill the threat to survive.
Duality…… the positive and the negative side. How will your group weigh the odds and what will be in your groups best interests.
Do you want the item to ensure a bigger threat from your enemies never gets it hands on it and makes them even more powerful ?
Perhaps such relic bonuses are race or class specific.
</blockquote>
veeeeery nice indeed. i would love such things implemented, especially for the "high-end" items.
Also I think the stats should come from the materials not the designs, or at least a mix. otherwise the designs would be rather limited and you would see soon every person run around with the same blade because this is the best stat combo for this class or this class combination or this play stile.
I can understand why you want this minigame. But this will only make it a rather painful task for player with less strong hardware or a bad connection. and for this the game would change to pay to win. you would need to create a skill based mini game that isn't a reflex game, and I have no idea what could work there.
<ul>
<li>
You kill mobs to get materials for crafting
Stronger mobs = better materials
Using the best items = better crafted items
Stronger items require more skill in the profession to craft
Assigned to each profession is a knowledge skill. (Armor => Armorsmithing, Weapon => Weaponsmithing, etc)
There are knowledge skill break points to unlock better item stat bonus' (or suffixes if they go that way)
In conjunction with crafting, a Lore skill about that weapon/armor type is required to utilize the stat bonus' of the item.</li>
</ul>
A Scenario system that strings along different events that take place between two crafters and a raider.
Simple Scenario 1
Person A wants Person B to craft a dagger for them.
Person A has Weapon Smithing at 100% which is "master" rank, and adds 5% stat bonus.
Person A also has a Ring for +5% Proficiency when Crafting
Person A can create a master ranked dagger with 5% stat increase, and a 5% chance of creating a dagger with a bonus modifier
Person A creates a dagger that has a +1 modifier to critical strikes (whatever that would do in game), which requires Dagger skill of 75 to use.
Person B gets the dagger with only 50 skill, so the +1 does not kick in until he hits 75 skill in that weapon type
Simple Scenario 2
Person C is leveling his Accessory Creation, making Jewelry.
Person C creates a necklace that gives +10% to Weapon Smithing.
Person A wants that ring, and buys it for some sum of money
Person A now has 110% which is Master +1 rank which adds 10% stat bonus' to their items crafted
That Jewelry piece has X # of charges on it, so the wearer can equip and unequip the item when they choose to use the charge.
Jewelry piece charges can be refilled via scribes.
Simple Scenario 3
Person B needs a new dagger, but is providing a vial of etching acid to the blacksmith they obtained from the raid boss that night.
Person A can use the Etching Acid because they have 100% Weapon Smithing.
Etching Acid gives a +2% stat bonus to the weapons and marks the weapon with the crafters name.
Player is poor and cannot afford to have the item crafted because of the endless wipes on that Raid Boss that night, so they return to town empty handed and cry themselves to sleep.