Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Applying (Mild%)RNG to base item crafting stats to reduce Third Party item sales
Let me preface this by saying that Ashes of Creation is most likely going to be a good game that I hope in future regardless of the developer's decisions on how item crafting/drop generation works in the game.
However, how can we constructively and objectively theory craft and make it better for everyone and introduce more fairness while taking into consideration the real world threats to the game economy. This needs to be discussed, it is an important topic on how people feel about their character identity and letting people RP/Identify/Immerse themselves with their play styles and characters while retaining unique qualities and a fair system that benefits everyone.
----------------
RNGesus is a touchy subject in the AoC Discord and in the community as a whole it has both tainted games with its over-use and lack-thereof; Causing chaos regardless of if you use it or not, life itself will always give you an element of "WTF?".
Inherently games are unfair if it is the elite gaming computer in front of you or the genetic dexterity of your hand-eye coordination resulting in you having a higher APM(Actions per minute) than your opponents. We do not game in the hopes of making everyone a winner, all those that try this; lose meaning and value(While I acknowledge the PvEers here wanting to have their feelings heard as well - This will most certainly only benefit you). E-sports is a great example of trying to make your game fair. You, for the most part, end up making your game bland with a high Rig(Entire Computer System and Accessories) entry cost.
I am proposing that as part of the Item(Swords/Armor/Clothes/Tonics - Whatever adds combat stats to your character) Creation process; The final BASE STAT of ALL ITEMS be subject to a slight variation of an RNG Roll of minor % adjustment.
(I have been reading rumors that there may also be an RNG element to the alchemy bonuses or enchanting setup of the items as well, but no confirmation) However, this does not address that the base item itself will retain perfect THIRD PARTY(Out of game $$ sale) monetary value.
While this may seem upsetting if you read over this quickly, I am advocating for a more subdued use of the RNG change in the base item. EG.
----
Player 1(Both have the same class/skills/stats)(: Gathers all of the BEST applicable materials to make the required item(They skimped on nothing), They clicked that craft button the resulting item comes out as:
?Sword
Atk:1673
Durability: 140
Player 1(Both have the same class/skills/stats): "Also" gathers all of the BEST applicable materials to make the same required item(They skimped on nothing), They clicked that craft button the resulting item comes out as:
?Sword
Atk:1669
Durability: 144
----
Obviously, I am not advocating for a massive variation in the potential variance in the base item stat, say a variance between (0.0001-2.00) of the total base stat, which is preferred could slightly modify another stat in compensation.
This minor system gives every crafter a chance in making a "Superb" or "Average" quality variation of each of their weapons without the game overall being widely affected.
The benefits of the RNG system is that due to players in the THIRD PARTY trade system's always seeking GAME THEORY as the standard practice of selecting min-max character loadout; it impacts item buyers(With real $$$) purchase options as exclusive and more custom items create further price disparity in what they can buy due to rarity in the RNG compared to them selling regulated "PERFECT ITEMS".
Perfect items being if RNG is not introduced to items to equivalent crafters will always create the same base item. Thus allowing and benefiting THIRD PARTY sellers effectively giving them flawless profit items to sell to anyone.
By adding the RNG roll variance you further limit the potential cheaters/Real Money consumer base for these items.
At the very least it will also place a higher demand on gathers for rare materials.
Another key aspect to this is that this system creates an effective item gold sink, players will always be incentivised to remake or recraft their items for a slightly better quality version of their weapon.
Players could effectively sink gold/trade items into oblivion CURBING the existing economy's inflation in the process. Item and Gold inflation be a direct cause and issue due to gold sellers and bot miners in ANY and Every game that has a trading system
The final benefit to this system being Crafter's themselves; As this game wants to further foster the potential REPUTATION of individual crafters who are able to further add a touch of their items being exclusively unique only to their class, stat and skill configurations. Giving what players want which is:
THEY WANT PEOPLE TO SEEK THEM OUT. They want to further matter as artisans of unique quality items that basically no one else can craft. They do not wish to simply sell IKEA carbon(perfect crafted) copy weapons.
Everyone wants a further sense of identity.
-
Pro's Summary-
-Gold Sink in the economy to fight inflation with materials
-Reduces/Restricts Target Audiences of THIRD PARTY item sellers
-Gives Crafters ALOT more unique qualities to their items and extends the game time of MIN-MAXing players who love minor details.
---------
Now, this system is not perfect, many PvE players fear the RNGesus and will probably feel slightly jaded by a very minor difference in their weapons that they POTENTIALLY worked very hard on creating.
This cannot be avoided in this system, but by making the margins minute, it reduces items for being "Write-offs". Which means they can still enjoy their items.
Inferiority complex is a massive issue with everyone, myself included. But we all need to remember the bigger picture of dealing with the economy and outside forces that specifically seek to profit off the degeneration of the game's economy.
I also acknowledge that some items that are perfect rolls from the RNG system will have an absorbingly high price.... This also benefits the third party sellers in some instances where they can find someone who would be able to afford that level of exclusivity due to the ratio of that item being so low EG. (0.0000002% roll chance) for a 3-10 damage perk against everyone in the game.
*While I still think this is preferable that 2 rich people in the world have perfect weapons by illegitimate means vs EVERYONE" *Cough*
-
Cons Summary-
-QQ: Eg "I didn't craft a perfect item..... FML uninstall the game for the -3 damage."
-Very, Very few people would get perfect items that would cost a lot to collectors with massive Wallets.
----------------------------
I hope you all take this into consideration and give your thoughts and feeling on creating a fair and balanced crafting/item system, regardless if you disagree with this or not.
NOTE: Regardless of people claiming the developers will do their absolute best to catch and stop real money transaction that they cannot possibly ever predict or prove like every game ever created before them. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE ALL SEEING ALMIGHTY NSA. Hehe or maybe they are! Illuminati confirmed!.
Just keep in mind that gold/item selling for $$ will slip through like every other MMORPG before it. Accept this and adapt to the world around you.
Plan/Design for the worst outcome, work your way back from there.
My regards,
uchigatanaNZ
However, how can we constructively and objectively theory craft and make it better for everyone and introduce more fairness while taking into consideration the real world threats to the game economy. This needs to be discussed, it is an important topic on how people feel about their character identity and letting people RP/Identify/Immerse themselves with their play styles and characters while retaining unique qualities and a fair system that benefits everyone.
----------------
RNGesus is a touchy subject in the AoC Discord and in the community as a whole it has both tainted games with its over-use and lack-thereof; Causing chaos regardless of if you use it or not, life itself will always give you an element of "WTF?".
Inherently games are unfair if it is the elite gaming computer in front of you or the genetic dexterity of your hand-eye coordination resulting in you having a higher APM(Actions per minute) than your opponents. We do not game in the hopes of making everyone a winner, all those that try this; lose meaning and value(While I acknowledge the PvEers here wanting to have their feelings heard as well - This will most certainly only benefit you). E-sports is a great example of trying to make your game fair. You, for the most part, end up making your game bland with a high Rig(Entire Computer System and Accessories) entry cost.
I am proposing that as part of the Item(Swords/Armor/Clothes/Tonics - Whatever adds combat stats to your character) Creation process; The final BASE STAT of ALL ITEMS be subject to a slight variation of an RNG Roll of minor % adjustment.
(I have been reading rumors that there may also be an RNG element to the alchemy bonuses or enchanting setup of the items as well, but no confirmation) However, this does not address that the base item itself will retain perfect THIRD PARTY(Out of game $$ sale) monetary value.
While this may seem upsetting if you read over this quickly, I am advocating for a more subdued use of the RNG change in the base item. EG.
----
Player 1(Both have the same class/skills/stats)(: Gathers all of the BEST applicable materials to make the required item(They skimped on nothing), They clicked that craft button the resulting item comes out as:
?Sword
Atk:1673
Durability: 140
Player 1(Both have the same class/skills/stats): "Also" gathers all of the BEST applicable materials to make the same required item(They skimped on nothing), They clicked that craft button the resulting item comes out as:
?Sword
Atk:1669
Durability: 144
----
Obviously, I am not advocating for a massive variation in the potential variance in the base item stat, say a variance between (0.0001-2.00) of the total base stat, which is preferred could slightly modify another stat in compensation.
This minor system gives every crafter a chance in making a "Superb" or "Average" quality variation of each of their weapons without the game overall being widely affected.
The benefits of the RNG system is that due to players in the THIRD PARTY trade system's always seeking GAME THEORY as the standard practice of selecting min-max character loadout; it impacts item buyers(With real $$$) purchase options as exclusive and more custom items create further price disparity in what they can buy due to rarity in the RNG compared to them selling regulated "PERFECT ITEMS".
Perfect items being if RNG is not introduced to items to equivalent crafters will always create the same base item. Thus allowing and benefiting THIRD PARTY sellers effectively giving them flawless profit items to sell to anyone.
By adding the RNG roll variance you further limit the potential cheaters/Real Money consumer base for these items.
At the very least it will also place a higher demand on gathers for rare materials.
Another key aspect to this is that this system creates an effective item gold sink, players will always be incentivised to remake or recraft their items for a slightly better quality version of their weapon.
Players could effectively sink gold/trade items into oblivion CURBING the existing economy's inflation in the process. Item and Gold inflation be a direct cause and issue due to gold sellers and bot miners in ANY and Every game that has a trading system
The final benefit to this system being Crafter's themselves; As this game wants to further foster the potential REPUTATION of individual crafters who are able to further add a touch of their items being exclusively unique only to their class, stat and skill configurations. Giving what players want which is:
THEY WANT PEOPLE TO SEEK THEM OUT. They want to further matter as artisans of unique quality items that basically no one else can craft. They do not wish to simply sell IKEA carbon(perfect crafted) copy weapons.
Everyone wants a further sense of identity.
-
Pro's Summary-
-Gold Sink in the economy to fight inflation with materials
-Reduces/Restricts Target Audiences of THIRD PARTY item sellers
-Gives Crafters ALOT more unique qualities to their items and extends the game time of MIN-MAXing players who love minor details.
---------
Now, this system is not perfect, many PvE players fear the RNGesus and will probably feel slightly jaded by a very minor difference in their weapons that they POTENTIALLY worked very hard on creating.
This cannot be avoided in this system, but by making the margins minute, it reduces items for being "Write-offs". Which means they can still enjoy their items.
Inferiority complex is a massive issue with everyone, myself included. But we all need to remember the bigger picture of dealing with the economy and outside forces that specifically seek to profit off the degeneration of the game's economy.
I also acknowledge that some items that are perfect rolls from the RNG system will have an absorbingly high price.... This also benefits the third party sellers in some instances where they can find someone who would be able to afford that level of exclusivity due to the ratio of that item being so low EG. (0.0000002% roll chance) for a 3-10 damage perk against everyone in the game.
*While I still think this is preferable that 2 rich people in the world have perfect weapons by illegitimate means vs EVERYONE" *Cough*
-
Cons Summary-
-QQ: Eg "I didn't craft a perfect item..... FML uninstall the game for the -3 damage."
-Very, Very few people would get perfect items that would cost a lot to collectors with massive Wallets.
----------------------------
I hope you all take this into consideration and give your thoughts and feeling on creating a fair and balanced crafting/item system, regardless if you disagree with this or not.
NOTE: Regardless of people claiming the developers will do their absolute best to catch and stop real money transaction that they cannot possibly ever predict or prove like every game ever created before them. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE ALL SEEING ALMIGHTY NSA. Hehe or maybe they are! Illuminati confirmed!.
Just keep in mind that gold/item selling for $$ will slip through like every other MMORPG before it. Accept this and adapt to the world around you.
Plan/Design for the worst outcome, work your way back from there.
My regards,
uchigatanaNZ
0
Comments
As one who played MANY games with huge RNG (10%+) to the point where players are essentially wasted their expensive crafting items to craft the crappiest item. Some games from Asia are quite punishing when it comes to upgrading items - items break, you loose money, and essentially it's a gamble of whether you succeed or not succeed to get an upgrade of your rare sword, and if you don't, it will be lost.
I understand that people in the west hate this kind of gameplay and would happily leave the game, and since ASHES OF CREATION is big on community, we can not have that, but at the same time, we can't have a bland game, and we can't have a MOBA in the highest levels of the game, where everyone has the same items. <strong>MMORPG =/= MOBA</strong>. So I would prefer to have these variations where you can craft or get a drop of an item (from a mob) with <strong>varying stats</strong>.
As one who played MANY games with huge RNG (10%+) to the point where players are essentially wasted their expensive crafting items to craft the crappiest item. Some games from Asia are quite punishing when it comes to upgrading items - items break, you loose money, and essentially it's a gamble of whether you succeed or not succeed to get an upgrade of your rare sword, and if you don't, it will be lost.
I understand that people in the west hate this kind of gameplay and would happily leave the game, and since ASHES OF CREATION is big on community, we can not have that, but at the same time, we can't have a bland game, and we can't have a MOBA in the highest levels of the game, where everyone has the same items. <strong>MMORPG =/= MOBA</strong>. So I would prefer to have these variations where you can craft or get a drop of an item (from a mob) with <strong>varying stats</strong>.
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success.
As one who played MANY games with huge RNG (10%+) to the point where players are essentially wasted their expensive crafting items to craft the crappiest item. Some games from Asia are quite punishing when it comes to upgrading items - items break, you loose money, and essentially it's a gamble of whether you succeed or not succeed to get an upgrade of your rare sword, and if you don't, it will be lost. I understand that people in the west hate this kind of gameplay and would happily leave the game, and since ASHES OF CREATION is big on community, we can not have that, but at the same time, we can't have a bland game, and we can't have a MOBA in the highest levels of the game, where everyone has the same items. <strong>MMORPG =/= MOBA</strong>. So I would prefer to have these variations where you can craft or get a drop of an item (from a mob) with <strong>varying stats</strong>.
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success.
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success.
I understand that people in the west hate this kind of game-play (which many of the eastern games go crazy with 10+% RNG and item breaking when craft and upgrade) and would happily leave the game, and since ASHES OF CREATION is big on community, we can not have that, but at the same time, we can't have a bland game, and we can't have a MOBA in the highest levels of the game, where everyone has the same items. <strong>MMORPG =/= MOBA</strong>. So I would prefer to have these variations where you can craft or get a drop of an item (from a mob) with <strong>varying stats</strong>.
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success. ;)
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success. :)
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success. :D
1) It should be lootable in PvP. The strongest weapons should belong to the strongest players.
2) It should be limited in the world. The more that exist, the harder it becomes to obtain
3) No player can obtain more than one.
If you insist on RNG lets make it at set intervals instead of a range of variance so each weapon would be divided into a randomly assigned tier. as long as my rules are followed we can limit runaway success. :D
Please post this time!
My god I thought I was bad.
:D
I dont mind an RNG tolerance system of +-5%
It wont break the effective power of the system, but the variability will add insterest and Luck if you will.
Plus your economic argument may have some impact.
Not truly convinced on that one though.
What I would prefer to see is neutralising stats along the lines of what you suggest though.
Players can distibute crafting artisan points.
How they are distributed will determine if they make;
Long lasting, reliable or powerful weapons and armour.
They canat make all three at once.
Increasing effect in one will reduce the effect on the other two.
So you can have;
Powerful weapon, break easily, short lifespan (deadly but fragile weapon crafter)
Weaker weapon, hard to break, short lifespan (Robust weapons that take will see a lot of action in its short life).
Weaker weapon, break easily, long lifespan though (Not the most powerful and breaks often, but wont need replacing).
Many will allocate there point somewhere between and define the signature crafted weapons.
The system would of course work much better with more than 3 crafting attributes to distribute between.
This would make every crafted item highly unique and trademark.
Make them power attributes to go with the other three.
You then have crafters that can be strong in poisoned, enchanted, powerful, durable, reliable.
The crafter will not be good in all of them.
What they are good at depends on the point distribution.
That would basically make is highly tuned weapons/armour to go with highly tuned playstyles.
CL70 was the goal
Triplets and Twins were fun! 23-23-24 and 35-35
CL1 to 69 sold to folks still training
CL71+ sold as decorations
With the wide swings in results I think SWG:ED had a horrible %
BUT... it forced me to be careful and pay attention to what the Stat Numbers were doing at various stages(DNA to Disk) in relation to the final product
Psi Crafter in VG was a blast, the sheer VARIETY of what you could craft and the Decon's for Dust was great!
What it boils down to is I would support a +-2% ... if you just say Mild% they could say "well a +- 10% is mild"
I believe it is in the best interest of the game, and the community, to have
very clear objectives for players to work towards. If you take the time to
collect X things and put them together, you should know exactly what
you're going to get for that effort.
Maybe I'll throw my idea back online since it's extremely in-depth.
Why would we do this for one it would devalue the items to the third party sellers customers think about it from the stand point of a buyer what is more compelling to you as a customer a Grand epic end game sword that you will never lose or a sword that you know for a fact that you will lose eventually and thus that money is gone and so is the weapon you bought.
The other reason is it would combat economic inflation say for example the Smith creates a Epic end game master craft sword and its a pretty big deal at the time as the weapon is rare but then saw a few days later he creates another and theres swords are still rare but not unique, however lets say over the coarse of a few years this weapon while still called Epic end game sword there are several hundred maybe thousand of the things in existence which devalues them as a "Rare" weapon as at this point half of the sever population could have this sword later on the majority could have.
Destruction of the weapon like discussed above would combat this inflation and keep the rare weapons rare as ideally they would break at the same rate or faster than said sword can be crafted to the effect of keeping these weapons rare in the world.
Having 100 people running around with the exact same 100AP sword is boring and this idea makes it so that theres a 2% variance to the end crafting result. Thus creating a Sword with a possiblity of a 98-102AP instead of a pure 100AP .
Intrepid Studios can go as far as they wish, but they have to be careful with what would the community accept. If you have an RNG, make it small. 2-3%. Not more than that cuz people will rage if you go crazy (as Korean MMORPGs), you can do item degradation (which was announced), this is good, but watch out on this one. Having one sword getting broken quickly will piss off many people (imagine your epic sword breaks in the middle of a boss fight, only cuz it exceeded its "hit" count). Don't do that.
Implementing a feature that would allow people to choose the stats in crafting, with sacrifice of other stats, this goes even further in building a wall for gold sellers. If everybody is now crafting unique items, now they will struggle to buy and sell those items. People will be looking for different items in that case, and even have their own crafter. Combine that with a 2-3% RNG....good luck if you are a gold seller. You just need to build a wall for them to face. Some-ONE will go over it, MANY won't. The game economy wins, and we are all happy.
+1 Agree
Having to constantly re-hash and explain misconceptions or concerns with the mechanics of this is tiring on my lungs in discord lol.
Regards,
uchigatanaNZ
As such the development teams values and my own; do not match and I have pulled my support.
EG: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1xq3Va7M2s&t=8m50s">DISCORD QA WITH STEVEN.</a>
Truly my deepest regards, this is my last post to this "carebear/handholding" game,
RIP hype. It could have been a great PvP game.... Could have.
uchigatanaNZ
As such the development teams values and my own; do not match and I have pulled my support.
EG: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1xq3Va7M2s&t=8m50s" rel="nofollow">DISCORD QA WITH STEVEN.</a>
Truly my deepest regards, this is my last post to this “carebear/handholding” game,
RIP hype. It could have been a great PvP game…. Could have.
uchigatanaNZ
[/quote]
I had high hopes and I was hyped for this game, but since yesterday's Discord QA, it all was gone within a minute after I received the answer I was looking for about end-game from Steven himself. Unfortunately, it wasn't what I wanted to hear, so I have pulled my support.
Deep regards, this is also my last post here in Ashes of Creation, and Steven, if you are reading this, I came with a focus play on PvP, however, a Guild Wars 2 / MOBA-like PvP is not what I was looking for. I wish you luck with the future of your game, and I hope to see its success at official release.
WhiteSkyMage
Deep regards, this is also my last post here in Ashes of Creation, and Steven, if you are reading this, I came with a focus play on PvP, however, a Guild Wars 2 / MOBA-like PvP is not what I was looking for. I wish you luck with the future of your game, and I hope to see its success at official release.
WhiteSkyMage
Here is my solution:
I've thought of a system that requires no "direct RNG" and puts the end-game stats of gear in a fluctuating state which involves "limit breaking" the stats when crafting/repairing an item that is a temporary stat buff lasting until the next repair. It would also involve a limited resource and possibly hidden limited quests (something for all types of PvEers and PvPers) that spawn randomly (so guilds cannot monopolize it) and only giving an item to +1 a stat (requiring more exponentially to increase the stats further). This would give end-game a constant fluctuation of stats and even the occasional player that combines their guild and a week of work to create a 10% higher stat gear but only lasts until the next repair (possibly a week of full use). The majority players may fluctuate in 3-5% stats to prevent "equalized gear end-game" and is not by simply RNG, but also dedication of/hardcore players and guilds.
Also the reason I want it to be a separate/new resource or hidden limited quest reward is I don't want it to be a straight forward grind for more/higher quality materials to get higher stats. It should be something constantly changing in the world and achievable by more than just hardcore PvEers and gatherers. It also needs to be applicable to every piece of gear and not just a "flavor of the season" where this material is in abundance so the gear in abundance also gets the highest bonuses.
</blockquote>
uchigatanaNZ used to discuss on the discord how when an item broke and needed to be repaired that on recraft/repair the item itself would need to be stat re-rolled. That way it was different everytime preventing an item from remaining perfect stat.
Your suggestion was actualy what he wanted as part of the OP's post lol.
I assume he would have agreed with thoughts before he quit, considering it was his idea.
The devs hate RNG in almost all forms and so does the community. Check the QAs out.
</blockquote>
uchigatanaNZ used to discuss on the discord how when an item broke and needed to be repaired that on recraft/repair the item itself would need to be stat re-rolled. That way it was different every time preventing an item from remaining perfect stat.
Your suggestion was actually what he wanted as part of the OP's post lol.
I assume he would have agreed with thoughts before he quit, considering it was his idea.
The devs hate RNG in almost all forms and so does the community. Check the QAs out.