Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Hunger system: making cooking relevant
Hi Folks,
One thing I'm excited for is becoming a cooking artisan. I enjoy cooking in RL and I would love to do the same in game. My only concern is if cooking will be looked over by players as useless.
Most games I play leave cooking professions to the side. Content is too easy, any buffs gain from eating is irrelevant. Eating isn't mandatory. I'm worried that if I do become a chef and open a tavern, no one will come by and purchase my food.
So the question is, should we have a hunger system in place to force players to eat food? This will have a substantial impact on gameplay, making the gaming experience more difficult. But it will also make the cooking profession viable.
For starters, we are placed in a world with no cities and pure wilderness. We would have to figure out how to secure food to survive. That may take more precedence than hunting monsters, as monsters can be avoided, but hunger will always follow you. It will force us to eat random plants and mushroom, hoping to not get poisoned. We would all be force to learn some basic cooking skill or learn to savage for edibles from monster corps or the wilderness.
As cities pop up, we will have farms and husbandry. There will be an NPC where we can buy bread and jerky to eat as we being for focus more on exploration and crafting. But we still haven't escape from hunger just yet. Those that choose to explore distant lands might decide to stock up on food for a long expedition. Those that fail to prepare enough food will be force back to their home node or risk dying to hunger. Taverns and inns could be a meeting point for adventures to fill their bellies before the next dungeon.
When metropolis emerge, siege and warfare will commence. Players that plan to siege on another node will have to take into consideration how much food to bring. If they siege for 2 weeks straight, it's important to have enough rations for everyone to continue to fight the hard fight. Espionage and caravan raids can cut off not only ammunition supply but also food supply. If cities don't have farmland inside their walls, player raids can cut off food supply to the node, gimping their defense if they don't stock up wheat in a granary.
I know the best cook won't have the same reputation as the best swordsmith. But being able to continue cooking and feel a part of the bigger picture would make playing as a chef rewarding and meaningful. I hope the devs do consider a system that would make cooking more meaningful to the everyday life of players.
One thing I'm excited for is becoming a cooking artisan. I enjoy cooking in RL and I would love to do the same in game. My only concern is if cooking will be looked over by players as useless.
Most games I play leave cooking professions to the side. Content is too easy, any buffs gain from eating is irrelevant. Eating isn't mandatory. I'm worried that if I do become a chef and open a tavern, no one will come by and purchase my food.
So the question is, should we have a hunger system in place to force players to eat food? This will have a substantial impact on gameplay, making the gaming experience more difficult. But it will also make the cooking profession viable.
For starters, we are placed in a world with no cities and pure wilderness. We would have to figure out how to secure food to survive. That may take more precedence than hunting monsters, as monsters can be avoided, but hunger will always follow you. It will force us to eat random plants and mushroom, hoping to not get poisoned. We would all be force to learn some basic cooking skill or learn to savage for edibles from monster corps or the wilderness.
As cities pop up, we will have farms and husbandry. There will be an NPC where we can buy bread and jerky to eat as we being for focus more on exploration and crafting. But we still haven't escape from hunger just yet. Those that choose to explore distant lands might decide to stock up on food for a long expedition. Those that fail to prepare enough food will be force back to their home node or risk dying to hunger. Taverns and inns could be a meeting point for adventures to fill their bellies before the next dungeon.
When metropolis emerge, siege and warfare will commence. Players that plan to siege on another node will have to take into consideration how much food to bring. If they siege for 2 weeks straight, it's important to have enough rations for everyone to continue to fight the hard fight. Espionage and caravan raids can cut off not only ammunition supply but also food supply. If cities don't have farmland inside their walls, player raids can cut off food supply to the node, gimping their defense if they don't stock up wheat in a granary.
I know the best cook won't have the same reputation as the best swordsmith. But being able to continue cooking and feel a part of the bigger picture would make playing as a chef rewarding and meaningful. I hope the devs do consider a system that would make cooking more meaningful to the everyday life of players.
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Especially when not given a proper argument as to why they came to such a conclusion.
Personally I don't see how this could be fun for the player unless they're into the survival aspect which this game is not about in this sense. The only point is to make cooking viable, which would make a few cooks happy, while forcing it down everyone else's throat and making it unavoidable. That'd also make the game next to unplayable for those who don't like to spend their time cooking ingame but want to play solo during the initial part of the game. They simply starve during the time the node needs to get build up.
In most games I know cooking provides a simple, yet mandatory buff for optimal output during raids or other content. That makes it viable, while not exactly fun because it's just that: A mandatory buff you HAVE to have if you want to be competetive. In result, since every competetive player WILL buy them, their price skyrockets until the chefs undercut each other all the way down. And noone wants to waste his money on overpriced food unless necessary.
If you want to make cooking viable and fun you shouldn't try to force it down other players but give players more incentives to use food. Let them provide little, meaningful or fun buffs that'll help you out in the world, for example letting you sprint for a short while after killing/gathering something or increased regen outside of combat.
The more complicated part would be to make them affordable which is mostly out of the devs hands. If it takes you about a day to farm 10 gold, would you spend 1 or 2 for food that lets you farm slightly more efficient for an hour?
I just thought something 'different' than just the standard
"Buy X item from crafter for X stat boost for X period of time." <- especially true since they have gear decay.
That formula will be used for blacksmithing, alchemy, cooking and possible other artisan classes. It's all the same formula, re-skinned with different variables and graphics. I don't intend for a hunger system to be cumbersome, like you have to eat every 4 hours. It would be more like 24+hours (of ingame time). But most importantly, I wanted the cooking class to feel more unique than just X buff you get for X minutes after consumption. Gear is an integral part for all players. Potions are an integral part for people who want to solo. Cooking is just a nice perk if you have time and some money to spend.
I have faith that the developers would figure out a way to make each artisan class feel rewarding in their own way. If not, I'll scrap my dream of being a tavern owner and just open up a blacksmith like 90% of the other players to stay relevant in crafting. I still enjoy crafting regardless of the profession.
While I do sympathize with people who insist that this is not intended to be a survival game, I would urge everyone to take time to assess why they are excited about what Intrepid is building here. If you are dead set against altering any of the widely accepted mechanics of existing MMORPGs, then what is it that appeals to you here? Why not just play more WoW or Guild Wars 2? You came here for some changes, right?
The core element that excites me is the idea of relevant action. What we do matters. It has lasting effects on the world around us. In story structure, this is what makes events interesting and exciting. Fireworks are fine, but it is motivated struggle that keeps you turning the pages. This is true at a macro level with the development of nodes and I don't see why that same philosophy shouldn't extend to the micro level in how players interact with the environment. I hope to see some genuine challenge in areas that other games make trivial and consequently miss out on some great, dramatic gameplay. Yeah, struggle can be frustrating, but it makes success all that much sweeter, and getting what you want is not nearly as satisfying as really feeling that you earned it.
In general, I think the game will be more fun if Intrepid resists the call to make everything (other than combat) trivially easy and convenient. They are going to be very stingy in allowing fast travel, and they are making transport of heavy resources require caravans. I think these decisions are exactly the right call, and I would like to see the same philosophy extended to things like cooking, hunting, tracking, surviving harsh weather, etc.
But the problem would be making them fatal.
I think that would be a step too far for many.
Debilitating can add depth to the game.
The problem is finding the sweet spot on exactly how debilitating is acceptable.
On a mountain in a blizzard in a bikini I would expect to be quite debilitating.
We know nodes will be biomes.
I also think steven suggested something about appropriate gear in appropriate climate with the mage clothing a while back.
So I think there is a chance we will have something resembling that.
But I think they could do more... for example, technique of the cook could determine why you might like "my apple pie" more than from the bakery down the road. Doesn't mean it's objectively (statistically) better, just that it's better *to you*. Maybe there will be a sensory system for characters that would allow something like this,
Also, you could do things like "dine in a cafe" vs "get it to go" which will affect your character different ways. The same idea of sitting down to a nice dinner with friends vs. drive through at McDonalds, etc.
I'd love to be able to choose how to prepare even known receipts, i.e. via chopping tomatoes vs. slicing them, and by baking instead of frying, and by cooking at higher temperature for shorter time than lower for longer, etc!
Anyway, I too would love cooking to be complex, with skill and commitment ruling the day for players who want to invest in it.
Side note, check out Wurm Online's cooking system.
On a more serious note even though that is awesome anyways...
I do like the idea to starve people during a siege. Just like the tax system, they have to place tax too high people leave... too little, and you can't get anything done. When a city is going to be attacked you have options you can either stay inside and lock your castle away the enemy can launch either a siege or cut off your trade routes and starve you of trade for some time without expending resources to attack the city. Camping outside the city to hinder progress... This sounds like a very realistic scenario when I think about it, what if the enemy(super massive guild(s)) just camps outside said metropolis and ganks the citizens to ensure they progress slower or not at all and siege once every so often so that the town be considered under attack?
So then why stop there?
The ability to make good food, but what about the capacity to make bad food? Like poisonous food ... I'm not talking about some bad fish or undercooked chicken(though I'll admit walking into a metropolis and seeing random NPC's throwing up due to hangovers and such after event celebration would be awesomeness) ... but BIOLOGICAL WARFARE! You secretly have a spy or leader of a city that goes around poisoning the trade caravans like a trojan horse.
Or even...Say a random dragon appears but instead of staying in the city till it destroys stuff till it eventually dies(with the monster coins why would you behave like a computer if your not a computer?) it decides to fly away and raid some farms and livestock.
I would love to see cooking be used as a weapon as much as a buff!
I do like the idea of tactical targets, like attacking the enemies cargo to starve them of supply. Or if the node's NPC population will reflect the quantity of food available in the market.
Steve has already mention how seasons will play a role on landscape, like lakes freezing in winter, or crop rotation. Even a ice dragon can curse the lands to be forever winter until it's slain. The food market would suffer no doubt under winter conditions, but if food isn't mandatory in our gameplay, then winter would just be mostly cosmetics would it not? Only farmers/herbalist and cooks would be screwed by winter. If no one cares about the farmers/herbalist and cooks, would they really band together to slay the ice dragon?
Same here! This would tie us closely with blacksmiths that can make cooking tools :) . (or we can could make it ourselves if we took up some blacksmithing).
Wurm's cooking is very extensive. The best I've seen so far. I hope AoC would be even better!
I've played a lot of mmo's, and I can truthfully say that the only one I played where I actually cared to use food at all, was FFARR. And, that was just when going into dungeons, to get the extra xp. Whether it was WoW, SWTOR, GW 1 or 2, ESO, EQ 1 or 2, etc. etc., I honestly never cared about food, or potions. Was still able to progress just fine, and usually there would always be that player in a dungeon or raid, who had an abundance, who would be giving the stuff away. So, my motto was, why waste time or money, when others are giving it away for free? And, not having it doesn't really mean much, especially when doing PvE. Granted, PvP'ers may have a high demand for it, because they're looking for any little advantage possible.
Not down with straight death, as a result of not eating/drinking. Save that for survival games like D&L. But, as other have said, a decrease in stats wouldn't be too punitive, imo. The more hungry/thirsty you get, the more your base stats decrease. And, potions could do the same, for extremes in climate. Extreme cold won't kill a person, but stats would decrease, unless a heat potion was consumed. So on, and so forth.
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Thats a good point actually.
Same here. As someone who main healer, I just healed the whole party. They never need HP potions.
Content was easy. Buffs were nice but never mandatory.
Potions have an avenue to be useful outside of HP/MP regen. As you mention, maybe a potion to counter cold weather. Or a potion that lets you breath underwater for X minutes. Something about potions and elixir screams out magical, imagination and lore.
Making food do something similar to potion would be a disservice not only to alchemy but to cooking as well. Might as well discard one or the other. Food should have it's own niche, not a rehash of potion in a different graphics.
Making content more difficult so that all buffs are necessary is out of question because they want to cater to both solo and group play.
If content can be completed by "solo + potion + food + gear", then the same content can be completed by "player+player+player+player". If that is the case, how many people would spend money on potion/food/gear vs just grouping up?
I would concede death was too harsh a punishment. This is not a survival game, its a rpg, and RP should take the forefront. Complexity should enhance immersion, not distract from it.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/hunger-system-making-cooking-relevant/#post-20035" rel="nofollow">freespiryt wrote:</a></div>
I honestly never cared about food, or potions
</blockquote>
Same here. As someone who main healer, I just healed the whole party. They never need HP potions.
Content was easy. Buffs were nice but never mandatory.
Potions have an avenue to be useful outside of HP/MP regen. As you mention, maybe a potion to counter cold weather. Or a potion that lets you breath underwater for X minutes. Something about potions and elixir screams out magical, imagination and lore.
Making food do something similar to potion would be a disservice not only to alchemy but to cooking as well. Might as well discard one or the other. Food should have it’s own niche, not a rehash of potion in a different graphics.
Making content more difficult so that all buffs are necessary is out of question because they want to cater to both solo and group play.
If content can be completed by “solo + potion + food + gear”, then the same content can be completed by “player+player+player+player”. If that is the case, how many people would spend money on potion/food/gear vs just grouping up?
I would concede death was too harsh a punishment. This is not a survival game, its a rpg, and RP should take the forefront. Complexity should enhance immersion, not distract from it.
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I concur, Shirikuryu. I apologize, as I apparently left my explanation of how I thought potions could work, lackluster.
It was not my intent that food and potions should serve the same purpose, essentially making them competing professions. I believe they should serve varying functions that would, at best, perhaps be able to synergize, one with the other, in creative and surprising ways. I'll leave the "what's" and "how's" to more creative minds. But, the inclusion of such a dynamic in the game, in reference to food/potions, would be great!
That triggered some idea...
If their are multiple biomes, food attributes would be specific to those local locations.
In like token, races not native to that kind of biome wouldn't necessarily have the tolerance or palat for such things.
So what one players finds beneficial...another player could find down right toxic.
Tuned gear for tuned combat classes
Tuned clothing for tuned racial environments
Tuned food/drink for tuned racial types
I played an old game that also went about the food/hunger element differently. Food and potions would do the same thing, except food would do it better and for less weight (inventory) so you would tend to prefer the food type. However, there is a satiation bar that limits how much food you eat in a certain period of time so you cannot just keep eating food and would have to decide when to eat food and when to use potions. The satiation bar wouldn't kill you, it just limits how much food you can eat in a period of time.
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I may have posted something similar here before, or on 10 other forums, but YES! :)
A sensory system for taste (and maybe smell, and others) even if random, would give your character some unique aspects.
Over time, you'd find our that your character doesn't prefer fruit but will choose an Apple over a Pear if he has a choice. He likes salty food, and so on.
This opens up the market for all manner of cooks, to specialize in desserts, seafood, entrees and so on to satisfy the wide tastes of player characters (and maybe even NPCs!) without there being a boring old 1 food that is the "best" because of a buff.
+10 to a sensory system :)
That triggered some idea…
If their are multiple biomes, food attributes would be specific to those local locations.
In like token, races not native to that kind of biome wouldn’t necessarily have the tolerance or palat for such things.
So what one players finds beneficial…another player could find down right toxic.
Tuned gear for tuned combat classes
Tuned clothing for tuned racial environments
Tuned food/drink for tuned racial types
[/quote]
Excellent thoughts, Rune!
Race preferred food anyone?
Elves are more incline to eat vegan diets and dwarfs love their beers!
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/character-sensory-system/
That triggered some idea…
If their are multiple biomes, food attributes would be specific to those local locations.
In like token, races not native to that kind of biome wouldn’t necessarily have the tolerance or palat for such things.
So what one players finds beneficial…another player could find down right toxic.
Tuned gear for tuned combat classes
Tuned clothing for tuned racial environments
Tuned food/drink for tuned racial types
[/quote]
Love that idea, Rune! Would love to see something like this considered for implementation, if possible!
Also the parlor games should be a great magnet for guests to give you some income and maybe the will be some food that will give you "luck" ;)
So I guess cooking will already be relevant.
Buffs + penalties are.
Otherwise we just get players running from one buff system to another buff system to stack buffs.
Then everyone else has to do the same to compete.
Then everyone has to be fully buffed all the time.
You end up doing a whole list of chores just to buff stack.
I really dont see that as fun.
It basically turns a cooperative system into a competitive system.
As to the survival aspect, Chronicles of Elyria is going all out in that direction, pretty much implementing everything you say you want. It sounds good in theory to me as well, but I'm quite worried that in reality it may not be any fun. But can't say for sure at this point.
These are two very different paths and at this point it's still very unclear if AoC will have any survival mechanics, but I can only assume that silence on the issue likely speaks volumes to its minor role if any. So having cooking ties to their node progression is the likely route I see for AoC. Perhaps caravans will need to be supplied with food stocks (more with distance), before they start their journey.
I can't expect too much, but I thank everyone for their kind consideration of the idea. I like their tavern idea, where patrons of a tavern will receive buffs that stay local around the tavern. It gives meaning for players to go and grab a bite from a tavern before exploring. I'm already happy with that concept, so I have decided to be a tavern owner that floats from node to node :).
If I could name my tavern, it'll be something like "misty wood tavern" or "mirage tavern".