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Experience Concept - Fail to Succeed.
Experience Concept - Fail to Succeed.
That moment when you solder that joint and melt components.
That moment when you swing the sledge hammer to break a wall, miss and break your leg.
That moment when you draw that giant bows arrow to unleash your fury, and instead the string snaps your fingers.
That moment when you use a wayward flame skill to light a torch, not realising you are in an ammo dump.
That moment when you use the only orc-king-slayer ever made, to lever open a chest and it shatters into a 100 pieces.
It is these moments that make you sob in a corner, rage quit, double up in hysterics and laugh your arse off at your friends or enemies misfortune.
It is these moments when you hear those famous words, 'OMFG' and 'WTF', ring out across the gaming universe.
Hopefully I have made my point, that as much as we like to think that we know what is going to happen, it is actually the unexpected that makes life both amusing, infuriating and interesting.
If we can predict and control every outcome, life would be completely monotonous and an endlessly boring grind.
Take dungeons for instance.
They follow a predictable script.
Once 'it is known' it becomes less and less interesting.
In the end, you hate having to do it and would prefer to gouge your eyes out...with barbed hooks...coated with sand...and poison...with plenty of salt on the side.
As much as we hate to admit it, failure, luck and fate is as much a part of life as skill, knowledge and success.
Which is actually the point of this thread.
Failure is the opposite of success.
The more skilled we are, the less failures we make.
Becoming a master of anything is more about not making the mistakes everyone else does, rather than becoming more powerful.
It is an indicator of efficiency. Where the objective is achieved to a greater or lesser degree.
So I propose that the levelling system take this into account for all skills.
I propose artisan skills can be both negative and positive.
I propose that all attacks can administer friendly fire and banes.
I propose that all heals can administer enemy heals and boons.
I propose that the power, range, targets, speed of such effects can be unpredictable...
..until you have fully mastered those skills.
And even then, you just never quite know, if you really know, what you think you know ;)
So the mechanics behind this.
O% experience Novice rating = 50% Base +-50% RNG This allows a novice to range from beginners luck to total failure
100% experience Master rating = 95% Base +-5% RNG This allows a master to be totally effective...most of the time. But hey, shit happens ;)
If the result of the Base + RNG is below 50% ~ The skill will misfire and will be most catastrophic depending on how close it is to 0%
If the result of the Base + RNG is above 50% ~ The skill will work in a positive way, but not necessarily the intended way.
It should take an extreme amount of time to level every skill.
This ensures devotion to the skill kind of thing, rather than the have it all instantly mentality.
But it does require a limited deployable skill set, so that players can be competitive relatively quickly.
Even if they don't have every skill, they can still use and have access to, enough skills.
That moment when you solder that joint and melt components.
That moment when you swing the sledge hammer to break a wall, miss and break your leg.
That moment when you draw that giant bows arrow to unleash your fury, and instead the string snaps your fingers.
That moment when you use a wayward flame skill to light a torch, not realising you are in an ammo dump.
That moment when you use the only orc-king-slayer ever made, to lever open a chest and it shatters into a 100 pieces.
It is these moments that make you sob in a corner, rage quit, double up in hysterics and laugh your arse off at your friends or enemies misfortune.
It is these moments when you hear those famous words, 'OMFG' and 'WTF', ring out across the gaming universe.
Hopefully I have made my point, that as much as we like to think that we know what is going to happen, it is actually the unexpected that makes life both amusing, infuriating and interesting.
If we can predict and control every outcome, life would be completely monotonous and an endlessly boring grind.
Take dungeons for instance.
They follow a predictable script.
Once 'it is known' it becomes less and less interesting.
In the end, you hate having to do it and would prefer to gouge your eyes out...with barbed hooks...coated with sand...and poison...with plenty of salt on the side.
As much as we hate to admit it, failure, luck and fate is as much a part of life as skill, knowledge and success.
Which is actually the point of this thread.
Failure is the opposite of success.
The more skilled we are, the less failures we make.
Becoming a master of anything is more about not making the mistakes everyone else does, rather than becoming more powerful.
It is an indicator of efficiency. Where the objective is achieved to a greater or lesser degree.
So I propose that the levelling system take this into account for all skills.
I propose artisan skills can be both negative and positive.
I propose that all attacks can administer friendly fire and banes.
I propose that all heals can administer enemy heals and boons.
I propose that the power, range, targets, speed of such effects can be unpredictable...
..until you have fully mastered those skills.
And even then, you just never quite know, if you really know, what you think you know ;)
So the mechanics behind this.
O% experience Novice rating = 50% Base +-50% RNG This allows a novice to range from beginners luck to total failure
100% experience Master rating = 95% Base +-5% RNG This allows a master to be totally effective...most of the time. But hey, shit happens ;)
If the result of the Base + RNG is below 50% ~ The skill will misfire and will be most catastrophic depending on how close it is to 0%
If the result of the Base + RNG is above 50% ~ The skill will work in a positive way, but not necessarily the intended way.
It should take an extreme amount of time to level every skill.
This ensures devotion to the skill kind of thing, rather than the have it all instantly mentality.
But it does require a limited deployable skill set, so that players can be competitive relatively quickly.
Even if they don't have every skill, they can still use and have access to, enough skills.
0
Comments
Obviously this is all, however, secondary function to server tick rates/average bandwidth of players and general smoothing calculation as well as animation restrictions wheather or not RNG is entirely necessary for certain skills or functions.
I hope balance does not leave out RNG combat mechanics as they are not entirely necessary because we as human beings are inherently flawed and will in a sandbox environment add a bit of randomness ourselves, but it certainly adds to the intense "O s**t" moments when we think we are about to hero something and something relatively unexpected happens.
But yea, especially friendly fire in competitive gameplay that is especially something important I would like to see at that level of PvP.
Regards,
uchigatanaNZ
They rely on an ever higher wall of RNG the more you progress, and thus force you to take the easy option and just use the cash shop.
"Go on. It will be quick and so much less painless than that grind you are on. You know you want to! Your friends will love you long time"
But hey...you still had a choice right. There was always that faintest glimmer of hope you wouldnt have to dig that wallet out.
[/quote]
But you are incompetent with the skill....that is why you are levelling it up ;)
Would you leave a trainee electrician to finish off wiring up that nuclear power station ?
That is RNG making what was a forgone boring inevitable conclusion.....something far more interesting.
The favourite..did not win. The unexpected happened.
Obviously this is all, however, secondary function to server tick rates/average bandwidth of players and general smoothing calculation as well as animation restrictions wheather or not RNG is entirely necessary for certain skills or functions.
I hope balance does not leave out RNG combat mechanics as they are not entirely necessary because we as human beings are inherently flawed and will in a sandbox environment add a bit of randomness ourselves, but it certainly adds to the intense “O s**t” moments when we think we are about to hero something and something relatively unexpected happens.
But yea, especially friendly fire in competitive gameplay that is especially something important I would like to see at that level of PvP.
Regards,
uchigatanaNZ
[/quote]
Essentially I agree on the friendly fire being necessary.... to stop AoE spam for one.
But there was never really a good way to introduce it IMO.
I think this is a natural realistic way to introduce it.
Novice zerg balls that attempt to get those awesome skills, will probably end up nuking themselves and their allies.
The enemy vats can just stand back and laugh at the ensuing calamity.
You will have to think really really carefully about what skills you will deploy when and where.
Purely because of the inherent risk of using them.
This I feel, is the intended goal of the game anyway.
To force you to think about combat.
To force you to actually think before you do anything.
To Reward Risk. To Reward Effort.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/experience-concept-fail-to-succeed/#post-19817" rel="nofollow">midnight-shadow wrote:</a></div>
There is a huge difference between failing due to your own incompetence and failing just because the game wants you to. There is no satisfaction in getting good RNG, and it’s doubly frustrating when you get bad RNG and fail even when you did everything perfectly. Anyone who has played BDO (and there are a lot of people trust me) know how annoying and frustrating RNG is, especially when said RNG dictates your character’s strength. Now, putting things like friendly fire in the game where you are punished for your incompetence is fine, but putting in RNG mechanics just because your character level is low is bullshit and a failure of game design.
</blockquote>
But you are incompetent with the skill….that is why you are levelling it up <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f609.svg" />
Would you leave a trainee electrician to finish off wiring up that nuclear power station ?
[/quote]
When said skill requires nothing more than pressing a button, yes I would be fine leaving a trainee to do that. Also your comparison doesn't add up at all, because the skill required in most mmorpgs (especially those that use use tab targetting) comes not from the physical action of pressing a button, but the knowledge of when to push the button. What you are suggesting is like telling a chess player they need to spend 6 months learning how to physcically move a pawn before they can learn how to move a knight....
Skill in games comes from learning to use the character's abilities in different situations, not by imitating progression by putting in RNG.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/experience-concept-fail-to-succeed/#post-19824" rel="nofollow">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/experience-concept-fail-to-succeed/#post-19817" rel="nofollow">midnight-shadow wrote:</a></div>
There is a huge difference between failing due to your own incompetence and failing just because the game wants you to. There is no satisfaction in getting good RNG, and it’s doubly frustrating when you get bad RNG and fail even when you did everything perfectly. Anyone who has played BDO (and there are a lot of people trust me) know how annoying and frustrating RNG is, especially when said RNG dictates your character’s strength. Now, putting things like friendly fire in the game where you are punished for your incompetence is fine, but putting in RNG mechanics just because your character level is low is bullshit and a failure of game design.
</blockquote>
But you are incompetent with the skill….that is why you are levelling it up <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f609.svg" />
Would you leave a trainee electrician to finish off wiring up that nuclear power station ?
</blockquote>
When said skill requires nothing more than pressing a button, yes I would be fine leaving a trainee to do that. Also your comparison doesn’t add up at all, because the skill required in most mmorpgs (especially those that use use tab targetting) comes not from the physical action of pressing a button, but the knowledge of when to push the button. What you are suggesting is like telling a chess player they need to spend 6 months learning how to physcically move a pawn before they can learn how to move a knight….
Skill in games comes from learning to use the character’s abilities in different situations, not by imitating progression by putting in RNG.
[/quote]
And your character will gain experience by doing things related to that skill and become more proficient with it.
You seem to be making the mistake that the game is about 'you' hitting buttons on the keyboard.
Rather than the avatar you control experiencing their own world with you along for the journey.
I guess that is what separates role players from game players.
RPG means you are role playing your avatar.
It is the avatar gaining experience.....not you ;)
Your real world experience (thumping buttons).. is irrelevant.
And your character will gain experience by doing things related to that skill and become more proficient with it.
You seem to be making the mistake that the game is about ‘you’ hitting buttons on the keyboard.
Rather than the avatar you control experiencing their own world with you along for the journey.
I guess that is what separates role players from game players.
RPG means you are role playing your avatar.
It is the avatar gaining experience…..not you <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f609.svg" />
Your real world experience (thumping buttons).. is irrelevant.
[/quote]
I see where you are coming from but at the same time I doubt you will find a game that is 100% accurate to be appealing. Let's not forget that many people plays video games to escape aspects of reality that they find boring. I can't do parkour but I can do it in a game without the need to soend years training my real body to do it.
A fantastic example of this is world of tanks, where the developers made a huge effort to make the combat as realistic as possible, with 1 exception. In real life, world war 2 tanks were prone to breaking down randomly on their way to the battlefield. Now imagine that happening in game where at the very start of the match your tank randomly fell to pieces without even getting hit, meaning you couldn't do anything the entire match. Does that sound like fun to you?
Bottom line is that reality isn't fun, which is why we play video games in the first place.
You have shown that. I ownt argue with that.
What I am saying is in the right context it has a place.
Indeed it is the only way to break up the monotony of repetitive grinds.
Levelling skills is normally one of the biggest monotonous grinds we ever face in any game.
It is what we appear to spend 90% of our time doing.
Plus you need the concept of luck (good/bad) in the game.
Without that we are literally missing half the fun.
Those with endeavour say they make their own luck.
Which in a way is true.
Because with practice we iron out our mistakes.
This system does nothing but 100% reflect that.
RNG is removed the more your progress....not added.
You have shown that. I ownt argue with that.
What I am saying is in the right context it has a place.
Indeed it is the only way to break up the monotony of repetitive grinds.
Levelling skills is normally one of the biggest monotonous grinds we ever face in any game.
It is what we appear to spend 90% of our time doing.
Plus you need the concept of luck (good/bad) in the game.
Without that we are literally missing half the fun.
Those with endeavour say they make their own luck.
Which in a way is true.
Because with practice we iron out our mistakes.
This system does nothing but 100% reflect that.
RNG is removed the more your progress….not added.
[/quote]
If leveling skills is a boring grind then they need to rework the leveling process, not add RNG to it. Grind+RNG= An even more annoying Grind. If you want to make leveling less boring, then give us abilities that require careful aiming or have an element of risk so that we have to think carefully before we use them. Let's say for example that you learn a new spell, but because it's a new and powerful spell I can only use it 3 times before I become exhausted and can no longer use that ability for a set amount of time. Then, once I have used that spell a few times, I will be able to use it more often without getting exhausted. This would give you the progression and growth you are looking for without having to rely on RNG.
1.
But they cant rework the levelling process
People will want to level up as fast as possible.
So they will go to the content that offers the most XP for the least effort.
Normally that will be a repeatable script area.
It will be a themepark component designed for group or solo.
Thats the price you pay with a vertical progression system.
You will be left behind if you dont progress.
So you are in a race getting left further and further behind.
These repeatable areas are optimised to catch up as fast as possible.
(as opposed to normal questing that will be unoptimised and progress slower)
2.
You are also missing the benefits of an unpredictable system.
BOTs relay on predictable conditions, results as well as repeatable content.
They are 100% reliant on that to work.
It enables the owners to walk away and not manually manage the avatars.
As soon as you make the avatars conditions and results unpredictable.
You never know what the outcome of you activites are going to be.
You MUST monitor your avatar at all times.
And if you MUST monitor your avatar at all times.
You cant automate it and leave it unattended.
and you want other professions also to be based on RNG. Like really, why? It won't emulate real life at all, because trust me, no one can screw up as much as RNG makes it look like.
you know what will work better? just flat out putting restrictions on who can work on what. for example, you cannot repair a metro train wheels unless your steelworking skill is level 25 or above. see? simple, and very effective.
or if you so badly want RNG, just have something like "lucky! you got 1.5x experience from that crafting!". that's enough
1.
But they cant rework the levelling process
People will want to level up as fast as possible.
So they will go to the content that offers the most XP for the least effort.
Normally that will be a repeatable script area.
It will be a themepark component designed for group or solo.
Thats the price you pay with a vertical progression system.
You will be left behind if you dont progress.
So you are in a race getting left further and further behind.
These repeatable areas are optimised to catch up as fast as possible.
(as opposed to normal questing that will be unoptimised and progress slower)
2.
You are also missing the benefits of an unpredictable system.
BOTs relay on predictable conditions, results as well as repeatable content.
They are 100% reliant on that to work.
It enables the owners to walk away and not manually manage the avatars.
As soon as you make the avatars conditions and results unpredictable.
You never know what the outcome of you activites are going to be.
You MUST monitor your avatar at all times.
And if you MUST monitor your avatar at all times.
You cant automate it and leave it unattended.
[/quote]
Wait what? There is so many holes in this that I don't quite know where to begin.
1. The game is in early development, of course you can rework the leveling process to make it more interesting. If you want an example of leveling zones done well vs leveling zones done badly look no further than WoW. Compare old vanilla starting zones to the newer starting zones like the Worgen, Deathknight and Goblin starting zones and you can see very clearly the difference and level of interest.
2. "People will want to level up as fast as possible" What? Some people do, yes, but not all. I'm one of those people who takes my time and wants to actually enjoy the leveling experience, rather than rush to the end of the game asap. I'm sure I'm not the only one either.
3. "Thats the price you pay with a vertical progression system", actually no, that's the price you pay for not putting any effort or meaning into your leveling content. If people are wanting to rush through to end-game it's usually because that's where all the fun stuff is, and the leveling is just a grind and a means to an end.
4. Putting RNG into a game does NOT make the game harder or more interesting, only increases the time it takes to get to where you want to go. Let's say in your crafting system you need to make 10 of the same item in order to level up. Putting a 50% success rate into that isn't going to suddenly make the crafting harder or more interesting, it just means I will have to make 20 of the item rather than 10. If said crafting method relies on me just clicking a button saying "create x of this item", adding RNG to that isn't going to make it more interesting.
5. Following from the above point, RNG will slow bots down a little, but will no way stop them.
and you want other professions also to be based on RNG. Like really, why? It won’t emulate real life at all, because trust me, no one can screw up as much as RNG makes it look like.
you know what will work better? just flat out putting restrictions on who can work on what. for example, you cannot repair a metro train wheels unless your steelworking skill is level 25 or above. see? simple, and very effective.
or if you so badly want RNG, just have something like “lucky! you got 1.5x experience from that crafting!”. that’s enough
[/quote]
My argument would be, that RNG system was broken as most are.
Its the fact it wasnt working as intended/expected is what pissed you off so much.
You and many expect a uniform distribution system.
ie with a 1in100 drop rate, you would expect an item to arrive every 100th go or (if you were lucky) before.
They are based off linear congruential generators to create pseudo-RNG.
These uniform distribution systems use an index set of numbers (seeds) to generate a randomised set of numbers of the same range.
That range is 2^32 numbers in most systems/compilers for the rand function.
Every possible number appears exactly once, even they they are mixed up or randomised.
Every seed key generates an associated unique number.
Cycling through the seed keys will eventually produce every number.
Seed keys auto-increment on use.
1. There is a disparity betwen the number of items in the drop rate and the number of vaild numbers in the algorythm (2^32). This means multiple RNG numbers from 1 to 2^32 represent each drop. Because of the linear stepped nature of LCG number patterns, you can end up with mutiple RNG numbers within the valid range of a drop. So you get duplicates.
2. The RNG algorithm is run on the server and not the client. So although the server increments through the whole 2^32 numbers, the clients share access to that algorithm. Thus they only see a fraction of the range. So you dont see uniform distribution on the client end. The RNG was poisoned.
Game creators dont need to give a crap. Because the objective of the RNG is to frustrate you so much that you use the cash shop.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/experience-concept-fail-to-succeed/page/2/#post-20112" rel="nofollow">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/midnight-shadow/" rel="nofollow">@midnight-shadow</a>
1.
But they cant rework the levelling process
People will want to level up as fast as possible.
So they will go to the content that offers the most XP for the least effort.
Normally that will be a repeatable script area.
It will be a themepark component designed for group or solo.
Thats the price you pay with a vertical progression system.
You will be left behind if you dont progress.
So you are in a race getting left further and further behind.
These repeatable areas are optimised to catch up as fast as possible.
(as opposed to normal questing that will be unoptimised and progress slower)
2.
You are also missing the benefits of an unpredictable system.
BOTs relay on predictable conditions, results as well as repeatable content.
They are 100% reliant on that to work.
It enables the owners to walk away and not manually manage the avatars.
As soon as you make the avatars conditions and results unpredictable.
You never know what the outcome of you activites are going to be.
You MUST monitor your avatar at all times.
And if you MUST monitor your avatar at all times.
You cant automate it and leave it unattended.
</blockquote>
Wait what? There is so many holes in this that I don’t quite know where to begin.
1. The game is in early development, of course you can rework the leveling process to make it more interesting. If you want an example of leveling zones done well vs leveling zones done badly look no further than WoW. Compare old vanilla starting zones to the newer starting zones like the Worgen, Deathknight and Goblin starting zones and you can see very clearly the difference and level of interest.
2. “People will want to level up as fast as possible” What? Some people do, yes, but not all. I’m one of those people who takes my time and wants to actually enjoy the leveling experience, rather than rush to the end of the game asap. I’m sure I’m not the only one either.
3. “Thats the price you pay with a vertical progression system”, actually no, that’s the price you pay for not putting any effort or meaning into your leveling content. If people are wanting to rush through to end-game it’s usually because that’s where all the fun stuff is, and the leveling is just a grind and a means to an end.
4. Putting RNG into a game does NOT make the game harder or more interesting, only increases the time it takes to get to where you want to go. Let’s say in your crafting system you need to make 10 of the same item in order to level up. Putting a 50% success rate into that isn’t going to suddenly make the crafting harder or more interesting, it just means I will have to make 20 of the item rather than 10. If said crafting method relies on me just clicking a button saying “create x of this item”, adding RNG to that isn’t going to make it more interesting.
5. Following from the above point, RNG will slow bots down a little, but will no way stop them.
[/quote]
No. In a linear progression system, all of the players are at the top end of the spectrum (level cap..hopefully).
The more the game progresses, the more irrelevant the starting contents is.
So if people want to socialise with every one else, they need to escape the obsolete content.
If you have no intention of being able to socialise with everyone else, then of course there is not need to get through that wall of obsolete content that is too easy and worthless for them to share with you. Vertical progression creates a social barrier through mutually invalid content. That is why people grind their arse off to reach end content. Not because the content is shite. But because they cant play with their friends until they do. And that necessitates using whatever method gets to your friends the fastest. Bumbling through the wilderness is not an optimal method for rapid XP and levelling.
RNG allows mechanisms that makes the game interesting. I cant make you see that. If you choose not to thats your choice.
If you think that the expected is interesting and the unexpected is not interesting, nothing I say will make you see otherwise.