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How will Artisans actually get materials from other players affordably?

So. Artisans.

We know in most MMOs your crafted item requires XX of base material, XX refined material, XX harvested material and/or XX drop material.

Considering there will be a dependency between Artisan classes... For you to craft an item for yourself (Or even to sell at a profit) without being a Gatherer... How do you earn coin to gain more materials?

For example. A gatherer can easily harvest whatever. They can easily sell their materials to a Refiner for a raw profit based on time invested.

For the refiner... Where does his gold come from? Sure, he can sell refining someone for maybe a minor overhead, but doubtful the price would be enough to actually buy much raw material outright.

Taking it a step further. A crafter. Where do they get money other than hoping people come together to request things from you? I assume the point is to use your hard earned game-farmed gold, but then you hinder yourself at any progression otherwise (perhaps). I personally love crafting weapons, specifically I prefer enchantment types of crafting. Thankfully it's usually a desired craft... But what about minor levels? We all know low level crafting quickly becomes irrelevant in many mmos. How do you start leveling a trade once a server has progressed?


I honestly can't think of a good answer. As a semi-casual player at this point I fear the prospect of hardcore players simply jacking up the price of their spent time and making an imbalance in crafting as a whole. If raw materials are set way to high, sure this will make a dedicated artisan very valuable... And maybe that's what they want. Or it will make many neglect it outright as the random / gathered rewards will outweigh it.

While I haven't played it personally, I feel having item drop on death keeps the low level materials relevant like in Albion Online. I know it definitely did in Classic Runescapes Wilds... Those who didn't want to farm for high level mobs or money would go farm rare ores in open PvP zones, or just pray on others and sell what they get away with.

I'm definitely not saying I want fully blown open PvP. Though I like the concept of open world PvP in very valued untamed zones giving a danger... Though as a semi-casual usually somewhat solo player (Not saying I stay away from the community, however I usually keep a smaller niche of friends who barely accomplish 5 man content, compared to having a full guild of 255 at the ready).

Comments

  • Supply and demand. Supply is high, and demand will also be high. Most people want to sell and slowly everyone will undercut one another in order to stay competitive and sell.

    So I do not see people jacking up the prices to super high prices. Once supply runs out, and the demand is still there, that's when I see that issue present itself. Once that issue presents itself in the later months, that's when the conflict will arise and the war of resources will present itself.
  • Well one scenario could be to barter - I as a gatherer collect my ore then seek out a player that can process it into bars, I barter a deal that he can keep a percentage of the bars as payment. We then sell our bars to other players or crafters to raise capitol to support our on going crafting.

    Also there is always the option where adventurers who make their gold from dungeons and exploring will seek resources and materials so they can have items crafted and repaired by Artisan Crafters.

    There will be a lot of options to barter and sell services as the game progresses.

    Also remember that resources can dry up in one zone and show up in another so there will be shifts if trade routes and where goods can be found as the games goes on.

    The theme the Devs are going for is social gaming, making packs and business arrangements with other players will be crucial in some instances. Of course you will see larger guilds try and keep all their crafting in house where smaller guilds may need to setup deals with other small guilds or independent crafters.

    Just some ideas.

    Maddstone
  • Aye if they pull off the resource shifts and junk planned I can definitely see it being viable to all levels. If they make low grade materials valuable for things like crafting consumables then you could maintain a permanent market for them.

    Like say rogue A wants throwing knives but isn't a crafter. Their not hard to craft but the quality he wants is above basic skills. So he gathers the iron ore he needs and has it processed in the barter path like Maddstone said. After which he hires a crafter to make the knives and sells the extra bars for a small profit on all sides. Rogue gets his level appropriate knives, refiner gets bars and work for a small profit, crafter gets work, profit and potentially buys the extra bars off the rogue to craft and sell later.
  • <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/how-will-artisans-actually-get-materials-from-other-players-affordably/#post-27725">Maddstone wrote:</a></div>Well one scenario could be to barter – I as a gatherer collect my ore then seek out a player that can process it into bars, I barter a deal that he can keep a percentage of the bars as payment. We then sell our bars to other players or crafters to raise capitol to support our on going crafting.

    Also there is always the option where adventurers who make their gold from dungeons and exploring will seek resources and materials so they can have items crafted and repaired by Artisan Crafters.

    There will be a lot of options to barter and sell services as the game progresses.

    Also remember that resources can dry up in one zone and show up in another so there will be shifts if trade routes and where goods can be found as the games goes on.

    The theme the Devs are going for is social gaming, making packs and business arrangements with other players will be crucial in some instances. Of course you will see larger guilds try and keep all their crafting in house where smaller guilds may need to setup deals with other small guilds or independent crafters.

    Just some ideas.

    Maddstone

    </blockquote>

    I really like this. I'm usually a gatherer in games (because I enjoy it and can be very profitable). Gathering is always hard work but I find it rewarding. RO actually had a decent recycle of low quality materials being used in high end products which kept their value at a fair price. Bartering will add another layer of social play in the crafting/gathering community and I really like that concept. It makes the whole trade business more exciting and fun ^^

    I believe earning coins will not just be artisan focused anyway. If we get the 3mil on kickstarter you can invest in nodes ( i think it will work kinda like shares). I </em>think<em> if you choose to defend caravans you surely must be given some financial reward for your aid. There are dungeons and raids etc and probably world bosses. Maybe there will be a guild fund system and guild rewards will generate some income from "winning a deal" with another guild - who knows - but it wont be restricted to artisan crafts and I'm sure you'll manage to get all your gear one way or another :D
  • Ah I wrote a massive response to this and it got eaten by the forum cookiepost monster D:

    In summary :

    I love the idea of bartering - it adds a social layer to artisan craft which I find exciting and fun ! I always gather in game because I find it relaxing and very profitable. RO actually had a decent system of recycling basic materials into high end products which kept the product prices at a fair balance. It meant that resources value was based on their rarity in the world rather than need in crafting.

    I believe that artisan crafts wont be the only source of income however and I wouldn't worry if you don't want to choose crafting as your choice of income ^^

    1. Dungeons and Raids will be available and I imagine they will drop loot/ coins or have chests/treasures within.
    2. World bosses - rare loot etc the usual
    3. I think - not 100% sure - that if you choose to defend caravans you'll receive a reward for being a good citizen.
    4. If we reach 3mil on kick starter you can invest in nodes - which I think will work a little like shares?

    Probably many more ways but what I'm trying to say is I'm sure you'll get your gear no matter what path you choose ^^
  • Don't get me wrong- I enjoy crafting. Maybe not as much as some but I completely agree on the gathering bit being an enjoyable, relaxing downtime.

    I also like the conceptual system. I'm just not an optimist. I could see trade style guilds ( While I love the idea! ) Controlling the flow of resources to the point few others had an in. Especially with the concept of limited resources.

    Though I guess that would drive meaningful conflict, assuming the hardcore players don't hold a death grip on the economy - only another hardcore to try and displace them, assuming that part of the community becomes big enough for that.

    Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of not everyone being able to do everything, I just hope there's enough incentive for non-hardcore players to even try non-gather crafting.
  • Just from my point of view - from the latest stream- the team are really doing their best to ensure that all players no matter your level and available time that you have - everything you do will be meaningful in some way - whether its pvp or crafting - so I believe that non-hardcore players will have a reason to try non-gather crafting even though I don't know how that is yet ^^ It could be crafting things to contribute to a nodes development rather than an out for yourself profit. I dunno ^^

    I imagine there is more to this game than personal wealth and perhaps being social and helping people might be more effective than just trying to do everything yourself.

    I also believe the entire purposes of the game is as you say to drive meaningful conflict so if we are ever in a situation where a zerg hard core guild has a death grip on the economy - instead of waiting for another hardcore zerg guild to take over- small communities can group together whether its planned via forums or discord - to unite as a team and take down the zergs to restart the cycle ^^ That is the beauty of what this game offers - anything can happen in any way that we want.

    I think that is why we are all here and what we all look forward to in AoC. To be able to work together to achieve great things even if risks are greater than rewards :D

    Sorry if I ranted and gone off topic - listening to movie and game osts over inspires me aha xD
  • Well...

    You make a valid point. That's why I considered being a gatherer for the most part while running a tavern and being a healer.

    Early game everything should be "okay". But as the game develops, the need for 'low quality' refined/crafted material would drop and artisans that are well established will be the ones turning a profit while new comers will have to level up their crafting without making much money.

    That being said, those well established artisan should charge a higher fee for their work to allow the inferior product to still have viability in their value. But who knows what will happen in a player run economy.
  • Well, if you want to get into crafting you start small. you use the money you get from questing and looting and invest it in your first craft project. after that craft project was profitable you use the profit to expand the next project. Rinse and repeat.

    And this is just how real life works too. If you want to enter the market, but you don't have any backings, you start small and grow from there. You don't start as multinational conglomerate

    in this way, if you want to become a max level crafter you have to earn it. not just buying all things from the AH and follow guide xyz to hit max crafter level in 10 minutes. Good crafters could be rare.

    or we get to many gatherers and resources will be dirt cheap
  • Worst comes to worst, you can always go around and try to attack caravans to get resources to craft things with.
  • It is either exceedingly difficult to design a perfect circle of commerce: adventure/gather-> processor -> crafter -> adventure/gather or very few design teams have treated it of much importance for most MMOs. I think that you will have to do like all of us poor slobs do. Some of your own gathering, here and there, and a great bit of keeping your eyes peeled looking for good deals. :)
  • It sounds like the Artisan class choice will be something important and viable for mastering in exclusively, so there will be a loop for gatherers, refiners and crafters, it would seem.

    As an example, to be the best miner, I'm going to need the best pick, which comes from the best refined materials, which come from the best raw materials. So when you look at it, a gatherer must start with a crafted product... and the circle is complete ;)
  • What I'm afraid of is that in the end there will be more then enough gatherers because it is something you can do while doing other things, more then enough crafters because making an end product that looks awesome and what you make can be a one of a kind, but the refiners/processors are rare. It is a job that does not necesarily create something awesome or that you can easily do by yourself because you need to get the materials from others. This will probably not be the case for low level materials because a jack of all trades kind of person can do those, but the high end specialized refiners/processors will be extremely rare
  • If each build was unique, they would require tuned gear/armour/tools/weapons.
    That would enforce the fact all materials will be required.
    Some of those specialist items might only be able to be constructed from specialist alloys and composites.
    And only someone with deep tree investment might be capable of that.
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