Class Design Overhaul

ArchivedUser

This might sound a little strange, but why have classes at all?

Why not allow people to have talents instead of classes? This allows them to create a character that's entirely unique to their choice of play style and personality. For example, you could have a several "trees" people will choose from and have branches that deviate from these trees. This would allow players to become whatever they want to be.

For example, someone could become a cleric and then deviate into a necrolyte. You could become a mage and dabble into whatever magic you want to branch off from, allowing you to become whatever you want.

The idea is to create a static class system to go along with the ever changing way the game works.

ArchivedUser

Just going to add this here, if an issue arises in class balancing then simply have players gain damage based on their level/status and gear and not based on selected talents.

ArchivedUser

One more thing, Neverwinter had a unique class system. While classes were predetermined, you could still customize your abilities and as such, branch into different classes.

WoW also had a similar idea way back in WoTLK and early cataclysm.

ArchivedUser

Rad. In fact I'm all for it :3

ArchivedUser

Yeah, class evolution is what we should call it. Your "class" evolves and adapts to your own special playstyle.

ArchivedUser

This would be a cool Thing to add! However They need a ground standing point to stand on and classes give them that option!!

If they take classes away their will be WAY to much balancing and over power stuff......

Also it kinda break the ( Healer,DPS,Tank ) dungeon routine in my opinion

I'm pretty sure they want to make your character as unique that's why they added the Second Class system for more info I suggest you check out youtube "Deathsproxy"

https://youtu.be/Xkupil0DHww

Hope this helps!

ArchivedUser

It doesn't sound strange.
Ultimately it's just the design choice the devs prefer.

The reason to have classes is because that allows players to adopt and understand specific roles - especially combat roles.
Originally, D&D the grandfather of RPGs, was derived from war games:
Fighter = Tank
Cleric = Medic
Mage = Glass Cannon
Rogue = Recon and Trap Disarm
They all have to work together to survive battle.

In Ashes, that's expanded to 8 archetypes.
Which makes it easy for everyone to quickly understand the primary roles.
I can expect that a Tank primarily is going to be in melee range, holding aggro and dealing a great deal of physical damage - no matter what their secondary archetype is.
I can expect that a mage is primarily going to be at range rather than in melee range and will probably need more healing than a Tank. And the mage will be focused on dealing massive magical damage.
I can expect that a summoner will be be ranged and using minions to distract our targets.

Even with dual-classing, it's easier to anticpate what people will and won't do...which allows us to synergize our strengths and cover our weaknesses. Without to many surprises.
I know a Tank/Summoner might spawn a bunch of minions, but probably won't be healing anyone.
I know I probably need to keep an eye on the health and aggro of the Mage?Mage, but the Cleric/Rogue will probably be fine.

Without classes, we won't know what to expect for anybody unless we always group with the same handful of people.
What is your role? "I don't know but I can taunt and root and summon and shield bash and heal a little bit."


In Ashes, players can be a Cleric and choose whatever secondary archetype they want: Cleric/Ranger or Cleric/ Bard or Cleric/Summoner.
And they can swap to a different secondary archetype if the don't like their current choice. So, that Cleric Ranger can later become a Cleric/Summoner if the wish. And everyone will still have a good idea what to expect during combat just from the name.
Everyone will know that instead of healing and rooting, that player will now be healing and summoning minions.

You can become a Mage and double up to be a Mage/Mage or you can be a Mage/Summoner or a Mage/Bard. The Mage/Mage could later decide to switch to being a Mage/Bard. or a Mage/Tank.

The Ashes design is a static class system that allows players to make a significant change if that's what they wish to do.
Seems like it provides exactly what you're asking for.

ArchivedUser

Healer/DPS/Tank shouldn't be a routine. That should be one option among many, depending on what the objectives are in the specific dungeon.

ArchivedUser

Without classes, we won’t know what to expect for anybody unless we always group with the same handful of people. <-

That's the point, if a build has an unlimited number of choices with none of them being more advantageous then the other then it means every player has their own unique class. Others might copy them but balancing issues are resolved by making abilities blank slates for DPS and by then removing CC and disabling effects in PVP. This means that people will still have to build their classes to fit specific roles but will all have the same advantage in PVP. Basically, give everyone DPS that is dependent on their gear and character level and no balancing is needed.

For example, a mage will deal the same amount of DPS as the summoner in a PVP situation but will deal varying amounts of DPS in a PVE situation. Balance PVP stats so that everyone deals the same amount of damage regardless of their abilities and selected talents and the situation is resolved.

In WoW currently, random battlegrounds balance everyone's stats according to their Ilevel. Now apply that here with the complete removal of loss of control effects and the balancing issues are resolved.

ArchivedUser

Everything you just wrote sounds horrible as mechanics for an RPG.
Sounds great for an FPS or maybe a MOBA.

ArchivedUser

They have 8 primary classes 8 races and 8 secondary classes.
The secondary classes customise primary skills to allow people to differentiate their builds.
Thus primary = vertical progression and secondary = horizontal progression.
It enables them to clearly differentiate build by function while allowing flexibility.
ie enforce 8 player dependency.

There is little difference between starting from a central hybrid and then moved toward archetypes,
or starting from archetypes and moving toward a centralised hybrid.

It is not how I would do it, but I will sit back and wait.
Its difficult to judge a concept that could basically have the same effect anyway.

ArchivedUser

Healer/DPS/Tank shouldn’t be a routine. Agree & disagree
I personally Like the core Fundament it might not have to go Exactly like that! I agree there may be times where you don't need one of the category's depending on the raid/dungeon!

but its a ground they can actual stand on rather it being like "Skyrim" where you can literally be anything!

ArchivedUser

There should be enough variety in tasks and scenarios that the must have classes are Rogue/Mage/Bard or Ranger/Summoner/Rogue.
There should be carebear diplomacy tasks that require people from the Religion/Social/Trade progression paths - if you kill people during the task/event - you lose the challenge.
There should be other tasks and events where the must have classes are Crafter/Processor/Gatherer.
There should be tasks that require 2 Rogues to disarm traps and unlock doors and/or 2 Mages to disenchant arcane locks and/or 2 Summoners to summon an oracle.

A Thieves Guild should generate tasks that can be completed by a party of just Rogues.
A Scholars Academy should generate tasks that can be completed by a party of of just Mages or Summoners or Bards.
And I would also expect some form of Military Academy that generates tasks for a party of just Fighters and Tanks.
The Temples should generate tasks for a party of just Clerics.

That doesn't have to be all the time. A Thieves Guild should have some tasks for all the other classes as well.
A Thieves Guild might have members whose primary archetype is Cleric or Tank or Mage.

There's no reason to have a focus on the 'Holy Trinity" of MMORPGs.