classes/subclasses and "The holy trinity"

ArchivedUser

It sounds like classes are going to be very versitile, with a lot of utility in both combat and otherwise.  I have a question regarding this versatility and "The holy trinity" or, Damage dealer, tank, healer.  Does this mean that there are only 2 roles that aren't of the damage dealing variety, or are there multiple combinations capable of some measure of defense, offense, and restoration.

tldr: is the tank and healing roles ONLY limited to tank and cleric respectively?

ArchivedUser

From what I've seen on the forums it seems you can combine most classes in some way shape or form

ArchivedUser

it's so far pretty much set in stone that only the Tank class will tank and only the Cleric class will heal.
Since from what we know of the multiclass system, the Main Class gives the actual skills and the secondary class only augments you will never get full heals if you choose a cleric as secondary class. 
As they talked in a livestream that a Fighter+Cleric will not have heals to heal others but have some augments that will heal himself. Some self healing but no full out Main Healer Skills.

But they seem to be aware of that holy trinity problem and try to design the classes in a way that every class is wanted in a group.Not only by their combat role, but also by their out of combat utility. We have to wait and see how that will turn out

ArchivedUser

I mean...Fighter is typically a form of Tank.
Depends on the game.
Typically Bards also have some ability to heal.

But, there are at least 8 combos of Tank.
Also, there are at least 8 combos of Cleric.

And each archetype has a variety of roles...so.
All of the archetypes are capable of defense and offense.

I'm not sure how many excel at restoration of other player characters...besides Cleric.

ArchivedUser

everything I've read and watch states that only a Cleric+Cleric will be able to heal others, anything+Cleric = self heals only.

But I do agree, I can't recall the last time I played a game with a bard that didn't do buffs, debuffs, including heals...

Never fear, I will always play a true healer in every game tha thas one, it is one of the main reasons why I have been hunting a replacement for Black Desert Online since 2 months after it launched...  Bards are also a favorite of mine, I used be a nasty Bard Kiter in EQ.  Even if in AoC I have to do a Bard+Cleric in order to do heals, I'll play that and a Cleric+Cleric, and a Summoner+Summoner/Mage

ArchivedUser

Well, of course everyone with Cleric as the primary archetype will be able to heal others.
So that's 8 combos of Cleric.

ArchivedUser

I'm not much worried about the trinity tbh, because it depends on what you want to achieve in the battlefield: do you want to take down rapidly that mage in the distance? Take a damage dealer, preferably something with high mobility to catch it (and so on with the other 2).

Also the fact that i've got to choose a subclass will hopefully make me achieve a good level of personalization and character indepth which will end up with a much more fluid system, using the classic trinity as a starting point.

---
Is there any other way to do classes afterall? I mean, if we get a different path and disregard the trinity then what we'll end up with? How? 

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Well, of course everyone with Cleric as the primary archetype will be able to heal others.
So that's 8 combos of Cleric.

That's what got me kind of worried.

ArchivedUser

Why does that worry you?

ArchivedUser

nirablade said:

Is there any other way to do classes afterall? I mean, if we get a different path and disregard the trinity then what we'll end up with? How? 

We shouldn't have to always rely on the the trinity.
All depends on what the objectives of the mission(s) are.
Objectives in a dungeon shouldn't always be about killing everything in sight.

A Thieves Guild might send out a couple of Rogues and a couple of Mages to steal a grimoire from a library...with the stipulation that they don't kill anyone. They have to rely on stealth and invisibility and illusions rather than combat to successfully complete that mission.
It will take at least two Rogues to disarm some of the traps and at least two Mages to unlock some of the arcane locks.

The tasks we are given should not be so focused on combat that every group must have a damage dealer, tank and healer in order to complete the objective(s).

Completing a dungeon crawl doesn't always have to be about killing everything in the dungeon.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Completing a dungeon crawl doesn't always have to be about killing everything in the dungeon.

Except that you won't get any other loot or EXP if you just sneak in and grab the end reward...  so only the person getting the final loot item will gain anything.  In every game, even if there is one reward item and other players assist one person in getting said reward, the other players at least get EXP and the mob loot along the way.

Maybe you can do it your suggested way; however you will miss out on everything else, that said it would be a neat trick if you know someone else is going for that loot the combat way and you sneak past them to steal the loot and sneak back out, leaving the mobs in tact.  Now that sounds like fun!  But just doing to do it a different way will eventually gimp your characters as they missed out on the "expected" rewards of completing that task.

ArchivedUser

The loot that would be had is from opening treasure chests. And the true reward is gaining ranks and rep in the guild. Everything we do gives xp to ourselves and to the node, so disarming traps and unlocking doors, etc. all provides xp to the characters and to the node.
The devs have mentioned many times that there will be non-combat utility roles gaining xp and rewards for what they do.

The item that gets stolen in this scenario is not the reward. The rewards will be given when the mission is complete. And I'm pretty sure you know that when you're in a party xp and loot gets split among the party. And everyone gets the task reward at turn-in. And, if it's a Thieves Guild task, we can expect there will be ample opportunities to loot treasure from chests - we don't always have to get loot from killing people. And, where Stealth is a valued skill, the ability to stealth and achieve objectives without kills should be tested and success rewarded.

"Missing out" is a matter of perspective. 
1: It depends on the motivation and objectives of the mission.
2: In a theft mission, it depends on who the target is...are we stealing from enemies or allies. If it's allies, we'd want to minimize killing.
3: For players who wish to focus on their roles and thieves or mages rather than on killing, they will be happy to complete their objectives and then go retrieve their completion rewards - especially if they will fail if they kill anyone. They can leave the killing for the players who like to kill.

There is no gimping of characters for completing the tasks you were sent out to do. Especially on missions where diplomacy is more valued than killing.
The expected rewards will be whatever is stipulated as rewards for completing the task.
Not everyone is trying to race to max or be uber anyways.
They just want to be able to use their skills to play their roles and complete their tasks.

ArchivedUser

good stuff there, I was not understanding that the quest goals were to do it without killing, I was thinking that your intent was to take a quest to "go find some cool gear/item/artifact" for yourself in a dungeon and turn that into a "hey lets try to do this as a group without killing anything and see if we can get in and out without killing 1 mob"

As I ended my prevous comment, I think it would be cool to do with the idea that someone else may be going in and you are racing them and decided to go stealth mode so that the other party has to deal with the mobs while you are by passing them.  I did not understand that you meant the quest goals themselves would be to not kill anything.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

nirablade said:

Is there any other way to do classes afterall? I mean, if we get a different path and disregard the trinity then what we'll end up with? How? 

We shouldn't have to always rely on the the trinity.
All depends on what the objectives of the mission(s) are.
Objectives in a dungeon shouldn't always be about killing everything in sight.

A Thieves Guild might send out a couple of Rogues and a couple of Mages to steal a grimoire from a library...with the stipulation that they don't kill anyone. They have to rely on stealth and invisibility and illusions rather than combat to successfully complete that mission.
It will take at least two Rogues to disarm some of the traps and at least two Mages to unlock some of the arcane locks.

The tasks we are given should not be so focused on combat that every group must have a damage dealer, tank and healer in order to complete the objective(s).

Completing a dungeon crawl doesn't always have to be about killing everything in the dungeon.

Ah now I'm getting a little bit more what you intended! I was considering Rogues as damage dealers no matter what was their mission, even when I tried to put them in a situation similar to the one you depicted: although they'll use stealth or anything different from damage they're still damage dealers but they can do other things too!

Although I can exit from this box and put other cathegories: disruptor, illusionist, ecc

ArchivedUser

thats the point.
Steven multiple times mentioned all classes will be wanted for groups, ether for combat stuff or non-combat utility.
Bards may be the worst class for a traditional combat groups. But they could bring so great non-combat utility that you just want one. and with no instant travelling there is no "oh for this boss, please all bards drop out and bring your rogues"....

i said it in the old forums, but if they really archive what i think they try, we will not see a holy trinity. but a system where every class is wanted for the unique things they bring to the table. So a full dungeon group just would want to have one of every class if possible.

ArchivedUser

Enrif said:

thats the point.
Steven multiple times mentioned all classes will be wanted for groups, ether for combat stuff or non-combat utility.
Bards may be the worst class for a traditional combat groups. But they could bring so great non-combat utility that you just want one. and with no instant travelling there is no "oh for this boss, please all bards drop out and bring your rogues"....

i said it in the old forums, but if they really archive what i think they try, we will not see a holy trinity. but a system where every class is wanted for the unique things they bring to the table. So a full dungeon group just would want to have one of every class if possible.

And the beauty of having everyone unique is you can have several differnet types of quests to suits different numbers and combinations of each class. And even have multiple odd sized groups on parallel quests that may have nothing at all to do with combat.

Unique = Situational.

ArchivedUser

nirablade said:
Ah now I'm getting a little bit more what you intended! I was considering Rogues as damage dealers no matter what was their mission, even when I tried to put them in a situation similar to the one you depicted: although they'll use stealth or anything different from damage they're still damage dealers but they can do other things too!

Although I can exit from this box and put other cathegories: disruptor, illusionist, ecc

It will depend on how the player chooses to focus their character - each archetype has a variety of roles. So some Rogues will focus on being damage dealers while other Rogues will focus on non-combat utilities, like disarming traps and unlocking doors.
Some will do both.

Enrif said:

i said it in the old forums, but if they really archive what i think they try, we will not see a holy trinity. but a system where every class is wanted for the unique things they bring to the table. So a full dungeon group just would want to have one of every class if possible.

Depends on the obstacles.
I think there should be obstacles that require multiple Rogues or multiple Mages or multiple Summoners, etc to complete.
Summoning an oracle of a god might take 3 or 4 Summoners.