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Suggestions from a MMO player with 20 Years of Exp

13

Comments

  • tinukeda said:
    Dygz said:
    Also, why are you talking about bosses with timed attacks when bosses will be controlled by players?
    SOME bosses will be player controlled.  Not all though.  Probably not even most.

    I *think* only world event bosses can be player controlled and then only if a player has and spends the proper monster coin?
  • tinukeda said:
    Dygz said:
    Also, why are you talking about bosses with timed attacks when bosses will be controlled by players?
    SOME bosses will be player controlled.  Not all though.  Probably not even most.

    I *think* only world event bosses can be player controlled and then only if a player has and spends the proper monster coin?
  • Lethality said:
    Virtek said:
    ...
    Well, I sort of agree with this... and sort of don't  :)

    ...
    such as the character that wants to display it must have also completed the same content it originates from 
    ...

    To me, that keeps they not just actually rare, but visible rare - which means they're RARER! Lol @ that word.

    I understand the desire to look however you want has many, many upsides and it's hard to argue against. But there is something to be said for games like WoW in a pre-transmog world: What you saw is what you get, and if you didn't have what you saw but wanted it, you better go get it!


    Rarerer is how I pronounced it when I first read it...I'm stealing it for every day speech now.  hehe

    I def get your view on it, and I'm not opposed to a system like that either.  I don't rightly remember if there's been an updated answer...but I last heard that they are "leaning yes" to the inclusion of a transmog system of some sorts.  My mindset on it is a preference for "all or nothing."  Either make it so we can only equip appearances from cash shop and other vanity-specific stuff, or I'd want to be able to completely tweak everything about a character to look like anything I'd collected during any of my game time.  

    I DOOOOO, however,  really like your idea of limiting appearance transmog to items that character would legally be allowed to wear.  Got a lvl 47 axe that fits your dwarf perfectly?  Better level up to 47 if you wanna wear it...  Wouldn't be any lvl 3 peoples walking around in pimped-out ancient legendary dragon bone underoos
  • Virtek said:
    ...
    ...
    And it will be changing all the time, it's part of what got me so excited for this game in the first place, the fluidity possible in an open world system.  Now we just have to wait 4 years for it to come out because there's no way this finish this ambitious of a project in 2 years.
    Exciting times, indeeeeeed!  

    I'm hoping the 2.5 years Steven quoted as max will be enough time to get it done.  There is a lot of work to do, so it does seem like a short time.  3.27 million dollars to spend on staff over 2.5 years though...that's about $109,000 they can spend on staff each month, using just the kickstarter money alone.  If they dive in deep and throw all the kickstarter money at more employees, that can be quite the powerhouse of production.  That would boost Intrepid Studios up to an employee count to just about rival a AAA studio project, even if Steven didn't devote more of his money into new employees.

    If they've been working on it for 17 months so far, and promised to release before another 30 months, that's basically 4 years of development time.  Considering they are not building their own engine, by simply re-purposing Unreal Engine, that saves them a ton of time.  Many places site 4-5 years as the typical dev time for a new MMO, which lines up with this timeframe. Might be very possible, as long as development goes smoothly.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Dygz said:
    Yeah, the people in the reddit thread seem to know as little about Ashes game design as Ragetastic.
    Huh? Reading this thread only shows me you are advertising what "your" ideas of AoC will be like based off the little information that we do have. There are times you're  just talking without actually reading what Ragetastic has truly said prior to your respondes.  
  • @Virtek  Yeah, I have mixed hopes regarding their timeline.

    While they did work on the game already for over a year, it was with a small team. They seem to have gotten a fair amount of landscape and architecture done already, but we have no idea how much of the core coding they have in place, especially with regards to the ambitious node system. We also don't know how quickly Steven will ramp his team up to his target of 40 members.

    It might take a while to assemble the MMO Avengers, and I won't get my hopes up. If the game officially releases before 2020, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
  • I am very comfortable with the progression and end game. I think it all depends on the players. All the pieces are in place and can be developed further. 

    IE: Monster tokens that allow players to control monsters. Lets say its limited to begin with and players desire more unpredictability in raids and dungeons. MAYBE the tweak to the system is to open up a social skill line where a player can start becoming the monster in the dungeons. As a monster person they build up statistic over time that determine the difficulty of the dungeon. They can push this Monster Toking idea a little further and a player can possibly be a Dungeon Master controlling a dungeon in different aspects with a team of other players to make the dungeon even more unpredictable. --- Point is this little idea can get bigger and grow with the player base. 

    As far as end game its hard to predict. Since the content is dynamic to begin with the PLAYERS have the opportunity to control the end game beyond 1 node. Form alliances, start a 2nd and 3rd node. MAYBE it gets boring after 3 nodes. Then players can attempt to overthrow their own node and put in their own leadership in 3rd node and rebel against 1st and 2nd node. 

    The only thing i think might be really stifling or really inspiring is the 3 million stretch goal where players are heavily invested in outcomes with in-game currency. This currency can either make players adverse to taking risks and protecting their investment or it might put some HUGE motivations to overthrow stuff and change things. It all depends on how powerful monopolies and alliances can become. 

    But yea this end game might include secret meetings,  politics, and conspiracies. As my imagination runs wild I picture Dune by Frank Herbert. 

    “Listen carefully, Feyd,” the Baron said. “Observe the plans within plans within plans.
  • I am very comfortable with the progression and end game. I think it all depends on the players. All the pieces are in place and can be developed further. 

    IE: Monster tokens that allow players to control monsters. Lets say its limited to begin with and players desire more unpredictability in raids and dungeons. MAYBE the tweak to the system is to open up a social skill line where a player can start becoming the monster in the dungeons. As a monster person they build up statistic over time that determine the difficulty of the dungeon. They can push this Monster Toking idea a little further and a player can possibly be a Dungeon Master controlling a dungeon in different aspects with a team of other players to make the dungeon even more unpredictable. --- Point is this little idea can get bigger and grow with the player base. 

    As far as end game its hard to predict. Since the content is dynamic to begin with the PLAYERS have the opportunity to control the end game beyond 1 node. Form alliances, start a 2nd and 3rd node. MAYBE it gets boring after 3 nodes. Then players can attempt to overthrow their own node and put in their own leadership in 3rd node and rebel against 1st and 2nd node. 

    The only thing i think might be really stifling or really inspiring is the 3 million stretch goal where players are heavily invested in outcomes with in-game currency. This currency can either make players adverse to taking risks and protecting their investment or it might put some HUGE motivations to overthrow stuff and change things. It all depends on how powerful monopolies and alliances can become. 

    But yea this end game might include secret meetings,  politics, and conspiracies. As my imagination runs wild I picture Dune by Frank Herbert. 

    “Listen carefully, Feyd,” the Baron said. “Observe the plans within plans within plans.
    I was thinking about that, with the election system this will be the first game where politics can have a real effect on the people playing the game as the leaders have real power.  It really is intriguing.
  • My 20 years of experience in PVP:

    Go back to original WoW PVP where everyone had 1 type of CC, maximum 2. So PVP was not a stunlock CC fest and you used your CC wisely. Each class had their own specific flavour of CC. Hunter only had traps where as paladin had a full stun. It made combat more interesting then when everyone could do everything. Also made it less chaotic.
  • I was thinking about that, with the election system this will be the first game where politics can have a real effect on the people playing the game as the leaders have real power.  It really is intriguing.

    You had to vote for your city mayor in Star Wars Galaxies. The politician class even had it's own skill tree. So it probably won't be the first game with politics. 
    1. Gear - Gear is a great thing, I love gear, but I think that being able to make your gear look like anything you want is a mistake for a fledgling MMO. If I spent a ridiculous amount of effort to get the best gear in the game, people should know it. You shouldn't be level 3 and have access to look like the biggest badass in the game, it defeats part of the purpose of the gear itself. This serves a dual purpose, it keeps people invested in your game, and it adds to immersion. People stay immersed because if every single loon on a street corner had a +99 flaming halberd then it takes you out of the fantasy, if ONE person has the +99 flaming halberd it showed them that it is possible to get to that point while giving them a reason to keep playing (if they are a min-maxer like me). If they are all about the role-play fantasy it servers the exact same purpose, just in a different way.


    Totally agree with the OP on all points. Putting aside the semantic conversation with regards to endgame/eldergame/max level content, I really think that so far AoC has been advertised as a game that will offer a vast amount of content for different styles of play at max level. In addition to what everyone has already said I am hoping that there might be an XP death penalty added in the game as these help to encourage players to truly learn their class in order to progress in the game toward higher levels. The idea of not having a maximum level but a maximum level soft cap would really work for this game in my opinion.

    One thing raised that I truly hope for is that the developers do not include a trasmog system in the game and that item appearances can not be shared between characters on the same account. For me I believe that items should be a symbol of progression on the character that earned them. Even as someone that often plays many alts in MMOs, I would much prefer to have to earn uber epic sword on each character with which I plan to display it. I do recall that Steven mentioned once the word transmog in one of the Q+As but would very much appreciate them reconsidering this feature.
  • Karemalis said:
    1. Gear - Gear is a great thing, I love gear, but I think that being able to make your gear look like anything you want is a mistake for a fledgling MMO. If I spent a ridiculous amount of effort to get the best gear in the game, people should know it. You shouldn't be level 3 and have access to look like the biggest badass in the game, it defeats part of the purpose of the gear itself. This serves a dual purpose, it keeps people invested in your game, and it adds to immersion. People stay immersed because if every single loon on a street corner had a +99 flaming halberd then it takes you out of the fantasy, if ONE person has the +99 flaming halberd it showed them that it is possible to get to that point while giving them a reason to keep playing (if they are a min-maxer like me). If they are all about the role-play fantasy it servers the exact same purpose, just in a different way.


    Totally agree with the OP on all points. Putting aside the semantic conversation with regards to endgame/eldergame/max level content, I really think that so far AoC has been advertised as a game that will offer a vast amount of content for different styles of play at max level. In addition to what everyone has already said I am hoping that there might be an XP death penalty added in the game as these help to encourage players to truly learn their class in order to progress in the game toward higher levels. The idea of not having a maximum level but a maximum level soft cap would really work for this game in my opinion.

    One thing raised that I truly hope for is that the developers do not include a trasmog system in the game and that item appearances can not be shared between characters on the same account. For me I believe that items should be a symbol of progression on the character that earned them. Even as someone that often plays many alts in MMOs, I would much prefer to have to earn uber epic sword on each character with which I plan to display it. I do recall that Steven mentioned once the word transmog in one of the Q+As but would very much appreciate them reconsidering this feature.
    There's a lot of argument about this, after playing a game where transmog is huge I find myself wishing that it didn't exist,  maybe they could do a system where all but the highest level gear can be transmogged, idk it's a tricky situation.
  • I was thinking about that, with the election system this will be the first game where politics can have a real effect on the people playing the game as the leaders have real power.  It really is intriguing.

    You had to vote for your city mayor in Star Wars Galaxies. The politician class even had it's own skill tree. So it probably won't be the first game with politics. 
    That is a great example. In my opinion politics alone is not a good solution to governance, because you end up with a kind of boom and bust dynamic. I think a more interesting an immersive dynamic would be contention between powerful guilds and government, where I think of guilds as great houses, religious organizations, military bodies, etc etc. The populous of a node will have a dual allegiance: To the guilds they belong to; and to the local government. The guilds will hold quite a lot of power due to the loyalty of their members and this will offset the power of the government.

    Hopefully the system will neither favor absolute power in either direction, but will be ever changing; without needing frequent revolutions or civil wars. I'm not 100% sure, but too many major disruptions might be off putting to players who are just trying to focus on day to day survival and progression. I think it was discussed before, but maybe nodes need some kind of charter or constitution to help avoid too much chaos?
  • lexmax said:
    Tying this all together should be a deep and compelling lore; which amplifies this threat over time and touches every individual with some sense of responsibility. 

    Ragetastic, thanks for your post, I largely agree with what you have said and I share your position of having played MMO's for a long time at varying levels of "hardcoreness".

    If anything was missing from that list for me, it was Lore.  I agree wholeheartedly with lexmax -- the lore is key for me to get hooked on an MMO.

    I started out in Asheron's Call, and every month for years they released new content with new story to go with it, and I eagerly awaited that each patch.

    Many games have used faction vs faction to achieve the "sense of responsibility".   In other games, it was the forces of evil or shadow or darkness (AC, LotRO, ...).

    The city battles planned for AOC sound fun, but they also sound like it could get repetitive.  The intriguing part, where lore can help, is the mysterious forces that can be unearthed by the growing of the cities.  I wonder if that is enough to make that pattern not feel too repetitive...  thoughts?

  • lexmax said:
    Tying this all together should be a deep and compelling lore; which amplifies this threat over time and touches every individual with some sense of responsibility. 

    Ragetastic, thanks for your post, I largely agree with what you have said and I share your position of having played MMO's for a long time at varying levels of "hardcoreness".

    If anything was missing from that list for me, it was Lore.  I agree wholeheartedly with lexmax -- the lore is key for me to get hooked on an MMO.

    I started out in Asheron's Call, and every month for years they released new content with new story to go with it, and I eagerly awaited that each patch.

    Many games have used faction vs faction to achieve the "sense of responsibility".   In other games, it was the forces of evil or shadow or darkness (AC, LotRO, ...).

    The city battles planned for AOC sound fun, but they also sound like it could get repetitive.  The intriguing part, where lore can help, is the mysterious forces that can be unearthed by the growing of the cities.  I wonder if that is enough to make that pattern not feel too repetitive...  thoughts?

    It's early days, but think it will be quite a feat to make repeatable content seem to be not boring or contrived. Also if events are triggered by a confluence of factors, say fighting a node in a winter realm will always spawn an army of snow golems to defend the node, then these dynamic elements would be easy to circumvent.

    Personally I think that the more layers of PvE, political interplay, guild interpay and PvP the better, because it is fairly easy for PvE to become stale without continuously adding new assets.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    In Ashes, even instanced content is rare - and I'm not certain even instanced content is repeatable.
    Different types of cities with different types of defenses available and different governments making different choice on which buildings are targets and which defenses are available... Different populations of player characters and NPcs. Different mobs as allies or enemies.
    I don't really see how it can get boring compared to endgame raiding...but...OK.
  • Dygz said:
    I don't really see how it can get boring compared to endgame raiding...but...OK.
    I don't recall anyone mentioning endgame raiding in this thread, but yes, that's a good example of repetitive content that can get boring. Dynamic PvE content that repetitively uses the same mechanics will probably also get boring (Eg: "No Man's Sky"). So this is a tough one that I think Intrepid needs to figure out. Maybe our ramblings on the forums might even provide some small insight. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    The OP alludes to endgame raiding - endgame bosses with predictable behaviors.

    I'm an Explorer, so it should always be interesting to me to travel and discover new towns and villages and what people are doing there. As well as seeing how they've grown or decayed.

    I'm also a multiverse fan, so exploring how the servers evolve differently should also be entertaining for me.

    Actually, I'm an Explorer/Socializer:
    (Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%)
    So, just thinking about making youtube vids reporting on the changing statuses of the various cities on each server - that could be endless entertainment.


  • Dygz said:
    The OP alludes to endgame raiding - endgame bosses with predictable behaviors.

    I'm an Explorer, so it should always be interesting to me to travel and discover new towns and villages and what people are doing there. As well as seeing how they've grown or decayed.

    I'm also a multiverse fan, so exploring how the servers evolve differently should also be entertaining for me.

    Actually, I'm an Explorer/Socializer:
    (Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%)
    So, just thinking about making youtube vids reporting on the changing statuses of the various cities on each server - that could be endless entertainment.


    Never ever said anything about end game raiding, just end game or (max level content) if you will
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    "Bosses should be dynamic by design, it will be frustrating at first when you die the first few times to a random frontal slam, but as humans we learn from our mistakes. If we just blow through combat every single time, then PVE becomes trivial, unless the difficulty is so damn high that only people who play 60 hours a week can access the content through gear. Bosses SHOULD be like dark souls (or legend of zelda if you prefer) in my opinion, the difficulty is high, but the reward is high for playing well, even if you don't have the exact gear necessary to do the encounter. (this is mostly for solo content and I'm not even going to get into group content or I will ramble all day about raids, they have everquest devs they should know their end game pretty well)."

    No need to trip, though. My comment was comparing Ashes to endgame raiding in other MMORPGs.
  • Make the Main Cities Where the Player-base Wants to Be - Now this may seem like a stupid suggestion to some, but I assure you there is nothing more boring than sitting in your player housing, farming cabbages, because it is the most efficient way to play the game. Player housing should be something that you visit maybe once a day, admire your achievements, and then go back out into the world. The reason I say this is because, this is a MMO, the players NEED to see each other. They need to see a living breathing world, or what's the point?

    This so much! I played in other MMOs with housing and it sucks! I work so hard to buy a house but nobody hangs out around the city/housing so it becomes so lonely and can't show off that shiny house you bought.

  • @Izanami
    Because I tend to RP, I really want my character(s) to have homes that they can decorate and grow and shape and and and ... but yeah, I absolutely do not want them to be "do everything here and never go into town." I'm easily the type of player who'll happily have a home everywhere, if possible. Just cuz, ya know, each of my army of alts needs somewhere that's just hers! But even in games I've played that had fully moddable and customizable housing, I still spent less time in them than I did in the game world. Additionally? These homes are nice little havens for RP, hosting events, so on and so forth. Also, as I understand the Freeholds, if I want, I can make my Freehold(s) homes, or businesses, or farms ... wow. Just so much potential!
  • Right. That's the beauty of it taking months for us to build a city, the homes being open world vs instanced and the region leveling with us instead of us out-leveling a static starting city.

    If we're building a city together, that means I'm likely going to know what time you play. The people who play at the same time of the day and/or week will bond just from the familiarity of seeing the same faces.
    And will take pride in how the village/town as changed. Especially, once we establish homes. Decorating the initial homes and then marveling at how the homes have grown as the node moves from village to town to city.
    We'll also be taking some part in the government - discussing what types of buildings we'd we'd prefer, etc.
    Defending the node from sieges and monster events will also bond us as a local community.

    Much as we do with NPCs in traditional MMORPGs, we'll know where to find each other. We will know who lives ing the mansions and when they are likely to be home.
    We will know each other's progression paths as well.

    And, instead being bored by everyone completing the same quests, we will be excited to hear the adventures other players have experienced.
  • Izanami said:
    Make the Main Cities Where the Player-base Wants to Be - Now this may seem like a stupid suggestion to some, but I assure you there is nothing more boring than sitting in your player housing, farming cabbages, because it is the most efficient way to play the game. Player housing should be something that you visit maybe once a day, admire your achievements, and then go back out into the world. The reason I say this is because, this is a MMO, the players NEED to see each other. They need to see a living breathing world, or what's the point?

    This so much! I played in other MMOs with housing and it sucks! I work so hard to buy a house but nobody hangs out around the city/housing so it becomes so lonely and can't show off that shiny house you bought.

    Housing can be done well if they are non-instanced. Imagine a cluster of Freeholds along a well worn road between two nodes. Maybe the one has an inn, the other a farm, and another a general store. Maybe the owners like to wave and help the caravans that pass through? There is a lot of potential for housing to be used well.
  • Wreyna said:
    Izanami said:
    Make the Main Cities Where the Player-base Wants to Be - Now this may seem like a stupid suggestion to some, but I assure you there is nothing more boring than sitting in your player housing, farming cabbages, because it is the most efficient way to play the game. Player housing should be something that you visit maybe once a day, admire your achievements, and then go back out into the world. The reason I say this is because, this is a MMO, the players NEED to see each other. They need to see a living breathing world, or what's the point?

    This so much! I played in other MMOs with housing and it sucks! I work so hard to buy a house but nobody hangs out around the city/housing so it becomes so lonely and can't show off that shiny house you bought.

    Housing can be done well if they are non-instanced. Imagine a cluster of Freeholds along a well worn road between two nodes. Maybe the one has an inn, the other a farm, and another a general store. Maybe the owners like to wave and help the caravans that pass through? There is a lot of potential for housing to be used well.
    This is why I'm worried for the project in all honesty.  The scale has to be huge, imagine 10,000 houses all in a row in some random backwater...They have to make player housing prohibitively expensive or they have to instance it.  Unless they come up with some genius idea..(maybe you can own an apartment in a large city or something along those lines?).  We'll just have to wait and see what they do.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Instanced apartments are available.
    Another example that leads me to think you don't know much about the Ashes game design.
  • Dygz said:
    Instanced apartments are available.
    Another example that leads me to think you don't know much about the Ashes game design.
    They literally have almost nothing out at all about the game design, whatever iteration that they have now will not resemble the final game in 3-4 years.  I like how you keep trying to start a witch hunt, and it's honestly sad.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    They have two videos dedicated to nodes which cover housing - including apartments
    And, they also cover housing and apartment in several of their livestream videos.
    Most of your suggestions have been covered by the devs.

    I'm not starting a witch hunt. I'm just telling you you should do some research.
  • If I recall correctly, there will be housing that's instanced/private, and there will be housing that's land-based/open. I think the housing in towns/citi/metropoli will be instanced, because mention was made that we can lock our freeholds, give permissions to enter it (similar to givin' out keys) and so on and so forth.

    I myself cannot stand to "watch" much of anything. @Possum, my husband, does most of the "watching" for me as pinning me down to a couch to watch anything is damned near impossible. So what I know, I hear from what he's shared me or places he's said "here, go here, read this." He acts as my filter. 

    I'm fortunate to have him, and well I know it; I would not nearly be so well-informed if left to my own devices; mainly because I'd rather read anything than have to watch anything.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    https://youtu.be/44HChA1Kkfk?t=2m58s  mark 2:58
    At the town stage and above, your node's politicians will have the option to open up instanced apartments. These are internal-only spaces which can be decorated to your desire. Different price points will offer different-sized apartments and apartment rentals will also offer citizenship. They won't have external spaces to build out and they aren't quite as prestigious as in-node housing, but they'll still offer some housing functionality to those who really want to be a citizen of a specific node.
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