2 Handers are people too

ArchivedUser

 Throughout history wielding a 2-handed weapon has been one of the most noble and proud of the warrior weapons. From Viking Berserkers, and Scottish Highlanders, to the Japanese Samurai. Few Warriors could claim such a feared a stature. Hell, the Japanese didn’t even use shields! my only assumption is because it was cowardly to hide behind anything but a blade.

The real tragedy in all of this? Despite the power, grace, and historical significance of these weapons and their wielders they are often left in the dust. MMOs have a long and storied history of making them sub optimal, clumsy weapons. Neither matching dual wield in DPS, or sword and board in utility. It ends up have a niche role at best on a back bar.

Lord of the Rings Online, one of my favorite MMOs back in the day. I played a Champion with a 2 handed sword. For a while the was only slightly less optimal than dual wield for DPS. These days it is not even close. In fact the best DPS for melee in that game is currently involves a Spear and a shield…

Elder Scrolls Online, once lauded the WoW killer.  Dual wielding is higher DPS, Higher sustain, and more utility. I still stubbornly use it in PVP, but the reasons to do so are little to none. Sword and board has near the same burst with equivalent. A problem they share with many games is each of the two slots filled by weapons gets its own stats, and counts to the gear set. Do the 2 handers get double the stats? Do they get  double the gear set bonus? Ha, no. The only thing ESO is killing is me softly.

 

Guild Wars Two. Does not matter the class. Does not matter the build. After careful testing, they are not competitive DPS. So many classes can use it, but it is not worth it over other options available which have more DPS and in most cases, more utility.

Skyforge, for a beautifully brief window early on Berserkers were close to the Top DPS. At least in the conversation. Sadly, that is no more and the 2 hander is again relegated to the shadows.

There are other games one could bring up, but I think I have done enough there. Other complaints are honest misconceptions of how the weapons work. YES, they are big weapons that can have a wide and long arc. Are they slow and clumsy? NO! A skilled wielder is quick and agile. Never a 2 second wind up animation more reminiscent of a 2-year-old swinging a baseball bat in slow motion, than a warrior in battle. A well-crafted Claymore is balanced. The weight sits in the right places to make it as much of an extension of you as any fine blade. They are truly elegant, and devastating weapons.

Do I keep using my 2 hander despite these things? Yes. Am I fool? Maybe… I love the weapons. I own a few expertly crafted ones. The history, and lore around them is fascinating, as the skill and strength required to wield one inspiring. I would love to invest in your game.

 

Steve-Sama and the gang. I would love to play it for many years. You sound like me and my friends in how you talk of your MMO and your problems with the MMO market. There is a passion and determination. I respect that, and make one request. Please consider the life of us who wield the big ass swords, Intimidating axes, and frightening mauls. Please give us a weapon that is viable and strong. Certainly, I have a plethora of ideas for balancing them but will leave that to you unless asked. Please just remember. 2 handers are people too.

 

ArchivedUser

Size doesn't matter.

ArchivedUser

Eventhough I'll probably not be playing  Fighter, but I also do like double weapon. It looks so cool with swords, daggers, guns and fans.

Dygz said:

Size doesn't matter.

That's a lie to make people feel better. It so does. 

ArchivedUser

I read the title and was thinking that most people have 2 hands and was wondering what all the fuss was about.

I like your write up, @Umji was a champion back in Lord of the Rings online as well. I'm guessing the 2hd slow vs. dual wield fast is just a game balance issue. I've played a few games where 2hd won out in the end due to the way armor works (mitigating a fix amount of damage per hit) so the Slower, bigger hits got affected less by the mitigation while the quicker lighter hits of the dual wielder were more disadvantaged by the presence of the opponent's armor. 

Loving your write up. I'm guessing the developers will definitely not be planning to make 1 weapon style superior to another style but there's probably be pros and cons.

ArchivedUser

@AutumnWillow

I WAS TWO HAND, THINK IS WASTE TO WASTE ONE HAND!

ArchivedUser

As a prospective berserker, I completely agree with you.

ArchivedUser

I would agree that double handed weapons need an overhaul in mmo's... 

I would agree that they can be graceful and swift, but that'd be in the hands of skilled users and it'd be nice if you could make sure that the weapons accuracy and speed were linked to the time that your toon had been using them. 

So if someone picks up a greatsword, they would benefit from using it on mobs before taking on a boss. 

The same way that archers shouldn't be abled to use advanced bows with a big draw strength without first building the muscle strength - Or at least less abled to.

And left handers/dual wielders stand a chance of self injury until they have learned not to.  

ArchivedUser

Thaddias_Wolf said:

.... and strength required to wield one inspiring. 

And you lost me exactly there.

from practical experience, a two handed weapon needs less strength then using a weapon in each hand. It's also very logical, you use the strength of both hands to hold one weapon, instead of one hand holding one weapon. And you get a lot more control using both hands.
Dual Wielding is not very effective. In most cases the second weapon is used for defensive means, not offensive. Actually dual wielding needs so much skill that barely anyone would use it if they get the option for a longer two handed solution.

also, you forget one thing!


two handed Shields!

ArchivedUser

@megs, isn't that what the damage system proximates? As you gain proficiency in a weapon or combat, you are able to do more damage with it, whether it's via strength, or accuracy finesse. 
It just means you get deadlier with your weapon of choice? 

ArchivedUser

So we're getting this already?  So much information in so many places it's easy to overlook 

ArchivedUser

Megs said:

So we're getting this already?  So much information in so many places it's easy to overlook 

*Looks over her shoulder, thinking. "Yep more to come"..............*

ArchivedUser

Enrif said:

Thaddias_Wolf said:

.... and strength required to wield one inspiring. 

And you lost me exactly there.

from practical experience, a two handed weapon needs less strength then using a weapon in each hand. It's also very logical, you use the strength of both hands to hold one weapon, instead of one hand holding one weapon. And you get a lot more control using both hands.
Dual Wielding is not very effective. In most cases the second weapon is used for defensive means, not offensive. Actually dual wielding needs so much skill that barely anyone would use it if they get the option for a longer two handed solution.

also, you forget one thing!


two handed Shields!

I agree 2handed shields would be boss lol. As to the strength comment I was talking about many types of weapons not just swords. Though I would disagree dual wielding takes more strength, I suppose that depends on what exactly you are dual wielding and what you used as a 2hander. However, in my comment I was also referring to hammers, maces, flails. clubs, etc. Many of which require more strength than a sword especially over a long period of time. 

ArchivedUser

Thaddias_Wolf said:

Enrif said:

Thaddias_Wolf said:

.... and strength required to wield one inspiring. 

And you lost me exactly there.

from practical experience, a two handed weapon needs less strength then using a weapon in each hand. It's also very logical, you use the strength of both hands to hold one weapon, instead of one hand holding one weapon. And you get a lot more control using both hands.
Dual Wielding is not very effective. In most cases the second weapon is used for defensive means, not offensive. Actually dual wielding needs so much skill that barely anyone would use it if they get the option for a longer two handed solution.

also, you forget one thing!


two handed Shields!

I agree 2handed shields would be boss lol. As to the strength comment I was talking about many types of weapons not just swords. Though I would disagree dual wielding takes more strength, I suppose that depends on what exactly you are dual wielding and what you used as a 2hander. However, in my comment I was also referring to hammers, maces, flails. clubs, etc. Many of which require more strength than a sword especially over a long period of time. 

Well, as someone who uses all kinds of weapon in real life, i can attest you that dual wielding usual length one handed weapons is very taxing on your strength and stamina. While you don't get this with weapons used with two hands. If you go for shorter and lighter weapons dual wielding is more feasible, but then you lose reach. And dual wielding maces....just no. Axes can work but only with lighter ones. Swords work if they are well balanced and not too long. 

ArchivedUser

I agree that some 2-handed weapons are really described in games like "powerful and the most damage dealing" but never seen a 2 handed sword having more damage than any light weapon ... sadly it should be slow but deal 3-4 time more than any weapon

ArchivedUser

Enrif said:

Well, as someone who uses all kinds of weapon in real life, i can attest you that dual wielding usual length one handed weapons is very taxing on your strength and stamina. While you don't get this with weapons used with two hands. If you go for shorter and lighter weapons dual wielding is more feasible, but then you lose reach. And dual wielding maces....just no. Axes can work but only with lighter ones. Swords work if they are well balanced and not too long. 

Right so we are saying pretty much the same thing, Sure if you dual wierld two long swords it can be more taxing but typically when you dual wield swords you use lighter blades if equal length, or a longer and shorter. And yeah pretty much only swords, axes, and shields are acceptable to effectively dual wields

ArchivedUser

Yes, honey, we are!

ArchivedUser

1 handed pirates be people too... Arrrr!

(That being said, balance should trump realism a little when it comes to the balance of weapons, it doesn't necessarily have to be exact dps balance but balance in the form of choice vs. consequence. 1hd having more accuracy vs. 2hd having bigger hits for example. Or certain weapons better vs. different mobs, or effectiveness vs. armor)

ArchivedUser

Ball and chain maces, pikes, and such should be a thing too! Pikes can be used to get ppl off mounts.

ArchivedUser

Please allow for two handed shields. Thank you.

ArchivedUser

Valentines said:

Ball and chain maces, pikes, and such should be a thing too! Pikes can be used to get ppl off mounts.

Marriages confirmed???

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:

Valentines said:

Ball and chain maces, pikes, and such should be a thing too! Pikes can be used to get ppl off mounts.

Marriages confirmed???

Confirmed

ArchivedUser

AutumnWillow said:

1 handed pirates be people too... Arrrr!

(That being said, balance should trump realism a little when it comes to the balance of weapons, it doesn't necessarily have to be exact dps balance but balance in the form of choice vs. consequence. 1hd having more accuracy vs. 2hd having bigger hits for example. Or certain weapons better vs. different mobs, or effectiveness vs. armor)

LAWL 

I agree things need to be balanced. That is the issue I see in most games I have played where 2handers get the shaft to dual wielding with not as much stats, or set bonuses etc. Though I do think realism should also be brought to the table. having animations that are fluid and consistent with reality I think gives the game much more immersion.  Accuracy perhaps not a good example, but number of attacks sure. So you can have dual wields do half the damage, but twice the attacks meaning, less spike damage but more consistent when factoring in crits and the like. Perhaps the 2h has slightly less dps but is a more tanky weapon. Turns out having a reach advantage in combat is a pretty solid defence if used right.  Little things like that could use realism to promote balance harmoniously

ArchivedUser

Traditionally if you look at D&D for example, two-handers do more damage when they hit, but only marginally.  The real power from the two-handed weapon comes from the crit strike where extra strength from using both hands really comes in.  Dual wielding is a faster type of attack that is faster and the off hand takes a penalty and the crits aren't as powerful.  However because of damage being at the mercy of the RNG, the dual wielding will usually tend to out dps the two-hander.

ArchivedUser

What about three-handed weapons for our mutant Tulnar friends? =p

ArchivedUser

Valentines said:

What about three-handed weapons for our mutant Tulnar friends? =p

Only Rodger rolled 3 hands... On average we have 2 sadly...

ArchivedUser

Valentines said:

-snip
"Ball and chain maces"

Referring to a Flail, flail mace?

ArchivedUser

nice discussion.

for the pro and cons of 2handed vs dual wield, and for the argument i throw in single wield (empty offhand) and sword&board into this, i try to make a point from practical experience with real weapons

Two Handed
Pro: Highest damage per hit, highest reach, really good control over the weapon
Con: usually around 50% heavier then single handed variant


Dual Wield
Pro: most hits possible, second weapon can act as defensive tool
Con: hard to control, very taxing on stamina and strength, the weight of 2 weapons

Single Wield
Pro: best balance of everything. good control, empty offhand allows for improvisations/grappling, best weight, best maneuverability
Con: nothing for defenses


Sword&Board
Pro: best defensibility, good control
Con: worst maneuverability

ArchivedUser

Both two-handed shields and dual-wielding shields have been dismissed, sadly. I see a small issue in the initial post: you present it as if two handed melee weapons were used very often. This was not the case, they were in use for a short period of time, and after that, they became more of a symbol than a weapon, as having shorter, quicker weapons are better to abuse weakness as well as defend yourself. The bigger your weapon, the easier you are outmaneuvered, which might end up being the cause of defeat.

ArchivedUser

Consering ESO, 2H is great as primary weapon in pvp for most stam builds. The weapon skills are pretty good and very versitile, the ultimate is not bad either.

ArchivedUser

In regards to GW2, I think your points are actually a bit off. For Necromancer, Greatsword has always been their best power weapon since the expansion released, and now it's used as a condition damage weapon too. For Warrior, Greatsword was literally the only weapon they used in higher end content (except for mace/shield for occasional CC and blocks) until about 3 months ago when condition damage took over, but greatsword is still their strongest power weapon, and is still widely used. Now, Mesmer I'll give you that greatsword is weak, but they shoot laser beams out of it so Idk there. For Guardian, Greatsword is their strongest weapon period and is almost always taken if they're willing to go melee. Rangers can use Greatsword to good effect, but it's been so long since I've seen a Ranger using a non-condition or healing build that I'm willing to let that one count against me.

So basically 2 out of the 5 available classes have greatsword being their strongest weapon, 2 out of the 5 have it as their strongest weapon for one of their builds (with Warrior's build being major, Ranger's build being best for power but weak overall), and 1 out of 5 uses it weirdly and it isn't strong, but it has amazing animations and some decent utility so there's that.

Edit for hammers:

Warrior doesn't use hammer, I'll give you that. However, Engineer elite spec builds all use hammer, especially in PvP. Revenant uses hammer as their only ranged weapon, so even though it's not too strong, it's still widely used. Guardian uses hammer in GW2 not for the best damage, but decent damage in addition to a lot of CC and utility and therefore is often taken in raids and fractals (like dungeons but with different scaling) and is widely used. 

So for hammer, 2 of 4 classes have widely used builds that make use of hammer, 1 of 4 uses it as their sole ranged weapon and therefore uses it a lot, and 1 of 4 doesn't use it so there's that.

ArchivedUser

I think your all missing out on the extra armor points that having a shield gives you A tall / long shield will protect you much better in battle that taking all the damage with your body armor. Wonder if you can shield bash your opponent and then lay in with a killer blow with your sword