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Death mechanics and why there should be penalties

Hi all

In MMO's these days death is a non-event, a minor inconvenience.

I strongly feel that death should be a genuinely scary prospect and solid mechanics for player death have a hugely positive impact on player experience.

For example, I used to play a lot of NWN years ago. On the server where I played mostly there were some serious penalties for death. When you died, you spirit would be transported to the Fugue Plane, a realm of the dead where all the other dead players were. There were a few different ways to return to the land of the living:

1. You could pay for a resurrection with a piece of your soul, this would leave you with a hefty stat penalty and you would lose a large amount of XP, potentially deleveling. To restore your soul a large donation must be made to the temple of your chosen deity.

2. Another player could cast some variant of a resurrection spell on your corpse, this obviously required the other player(s) to recover your corpse first from wherever you died. This would reduce the penalties incurred but you would still lose a bit of XP.

3. A high level cleric could perform a True Resurrection which required recovering your corpse and bringing it to a temple of tour chosen Deity. This also required a Balm of True Resurrection which was an expensive item but you would have no stat penalties and lose only a tiny amount if XP.

Granted these mechanics might be considered pretty hard core by some (and I'm not necessarily suggesting that Ashes needs an XP penalty for death) but there should be some mechanics in place to make scary, not just click respawn and run back to your mates!

What do you guys think?
Any suggestions for potential death mechanics?

TLDR: Death should hurt and be f****n scary!

Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Currently the death penalties for PvP are fine for me. I don't know how they would transfer over to PvE though. The classic corpse run, stat debuff for a few minutes, little xp off kinda thing is fine IMO. Doesnt have to be complicated.
  • Well the PVP penalties via the corruption system is different.
    That is a penalty for PKing not for dying.

    I think "the classic corpse run" as you put it is boring though and doesn't make death feel like I should care if it happens.

    I agree though that over complicating things isn't a good idea but I just hope they come up with something fresh and, more importantly, something that makes me afraid to die.


  • I think an XP loss for death and a run back would be the way to go, plus or minus a small amount of resource loss. Something in the realms of about 30-60 minutes gameplay equivalent of XP loss would be about the ideal amount IMO
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Aeson said:
    Well the PVP penalties via the corruption system is different.
    That is a penalty for PKing not for dying.
    Well theres still a "penalty" for dying by PKing, although you might wanna call it something else than penalty. You lose part of your raw materials + presumably other things like xp, time etc. Depending on the exact nature of the system.

    Aeson said:
    I think "the classic corpse run" as you put it is boring though and doesn't make death feel like I should care if it happens.
    True its not really that inventive, and its boring to be fair :) But hopefully you won't do it that often, then it won't be too trivial. And if you die a lot then any "longer" system would make you go insane, imagine getting killed over and over for some reason, everytime you die you have to spend 10-15 minutes doing a puzzle in the underworld or whatever. Although you would probably try to avoid death, it is not completely possible, so you would probably get annoyed over time.
    Theres probably some interesting new mechanic luring around the corner, someone just has to come up with it ;)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I personally think they should have "corpse runs".  Take for instance raids, it wipes, you then need the stealth classes to go into stealth, and retrieve the the corpses, or in EQ you had Necros and Monks who could "feign death" who could also retrieve corpses, using the feign death mechanic.

    There was something great about being a rogue and sneaking past a high level raid boss to drag back corpses.  Because most of the time, stealth is hardly used on instances and raids.

    It also adds a little "spice" to mass PvP, so instead of, just rezzing back at base and running back, you actually need to be rezed in the battle, making it a balancing act between healers "healing" and "rezzing", people dragging back corpses from the front line, when maybe they need to fight etc.
  • I personally think they should have "corpse runs".  Take for instance raids, it wipes, you then need the stealth classes to go into stealth, and retrieve the the corpses, or in EQ you had Necros and Monks who could "feign death" who could also retrieve corpses, using the feign death mechanic.

    There was something great about being a rogue and sneaking past a high level raid boss to drag back corpses.  Because most of the time, stealth is hardly used on instances and raids.
    Maybe I misinterpreted what Jules meant by corpse run.i assumed he meant the run back to your corpse like on WoW, not having to go and recover it.

    Having to recover the corpse would be much better and more interesting as a mechanic.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I agree that it shouldn't be complicated because in one game when you died you were like a ghost, you could go anywhere but not do anything. I had no idea how to come back to life so I just quit lol. But I hope they put something that walks you through death in case it is slightly complicated ^~^
  • Plains, my first raid zone
  • Aeson said:

    What do you guys think?
    Any suggestions for potential death mechanics?

    TLDR: Death should hurt and be f****n scary!

    Two things I'm in favor of for PvE deaths:
    • Loss of durability on death. Some guild items or profession skills repair gear to a degree, but the best way back to 100% dura would be a (potentially long) trek back to your node blacksmith/toolsmith etc. 0% dura would mean gear drop or even total loss. Death could result in variable amounts of dura loss, to add extra fear/tension when you do finally recover your corpse.

    • Loot drop/loss on death. I'm not in favor of full loot in PvE (or PvP), but a graduating scale of loot drop percentage, along with increasing risk of loot loss for repeated deaths within a certain period of time.
    Mounts and chests where you can stash gear and loot will help offset this (for higher level players), but beware the rogues  >:)

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Aeson said:
    I personally think they should have "corpse runs".  Take for instance raids, it wipes, you then need the stealth classes to go into stealth, and retrieve the the corpses, or in EQ you had Necros and Monks who could "feign death" who could also retrieve corpses, using the feign death mechanic.

    There was something great about being a rogue and sneaking past a high level raid boss to drag back corpses.  Because most of the time, stealth is hardly used on instances and raids.
    Maybe I misinterpreted what Jules meant by corpse run.i assumed he meant the run back to your corpse like on WoW, not having to go and recover it.

    Having to recover the corpse would be much better and more interesting as a mechanic.
    Yeah, in EQ way back, if you died, your body and all your loot was left in place.  You could get rezzed, but you'd loose your body and all it's gear.  So you would appear back in The Plane of Knowledge (central hub) with a "de-buff" on you and all your gear was still stuck where ever you left it, and you took a sizeable xp hit.  So you needed to do a corpse run, for one thing to get your gear, and secondly, you'd drag your body back with you, to get a Cleric to rez that body, you'd then get most of your xp back. Always remembering to loot the body before the rez.

    The Plane of Knowledge was often full of people running around dragging their corpses behind them, looking for a rezzer.  Or you'd often hear "help needed for corpse run, such and such zone"

    You would actual have a set of "corpse run" gear, journeyman boots (speedy) and other specialist gear sitting in your bank for just those situations.

    But it was great, people would actual go out of their way, to come to a zone to help retrieve your body, or rez you in situ.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Yeah, in EQ way back, if you died, your body and all your loot was left in place.  You could get rezzed, but you'd loose your body and all it's gear.  So you would appear back in The Plane of Knowledge (central hub) with a "de-buff" on you and all your gear was still stuck where ever you left it, and you took a sizeable xp hit.  So you needed to do a corpse run, for one thing to get your gear, and secondly, you'd drag your body back with you, to get a Cleric to rez that body, you'd then get most of your xp back. Always remembering to loot the body before the rez.

    The Plane of Knowledge was often full of people running around dragging their corpses behind them, looking for a rezzer.  Or you'd often hear "help needed for corpse run, such and such zone"

    You would actual have a set of "corpse run" gear, journeyman boots (speedy) and other specialist gear sitting in your bank for just those situations.

    But it was great, people would actual go out of their way, to come to a zone to help retrieve your body, or rez you in situ.
    Oh cool! The Plane of Knowledge sounds very similar to the Fugue Plane in NWN.
    I'm guessing EQ was the inspiration for that :p

    I think something like this would be great. It turns death into a whole other experience and promotes new kinds of player interaction.
  • Something from some time in my past that I have updated from time to time. 
    __

    What do you want on your gravestone?

    I remember the good old days; those were the days when you died, you felt pain.  It was traumatic and frightening in ways that no one but another gamer could understand.  Death was soul crushing.  That last death just as you were ready to log out could have reduced Genghis Khan to tears.  We all would swear next time we wouldn’t go for just one more mob to ‘top off’ our hunt.  Sleep became as rare as that one drop that everyone else was finding in the first five minutes and you hadn’t gotten in over twenty-eight straight hours of camping.

     I used to have to walk for miles through merciless, monster-infested wastelands to get my body.  I always got lost.  “Do you see that tree there?  Look, which side is the moss growing on?”  No moss for you!  We didn’t have maps.  We didn’t even know what the heck a map was.  I swam through pools of lava to get my bodies and every single time I was scared I would die again. 

     Ok, to be honest, I didn’t really care that much about my body.  Bodies were always a lot like Doritos.  The monsters could crunch all they wanted we would always have another fresh body waiting for us.  It was the shiny things on my bodies I wanted; my shoes, my cloak, my pride, my level, my sword.  At the end of a hard day your alt’s back-up set of armor was gone.  Perma-death would have been a blessing, but we didn’t have it that easy.

     The only thing worse than having your loot sitting on one of the 16 million corpses you had strewn across the land, was knowing that your body had been looted; talk about the pain and agony of defeat.  When that ogre rifled through your corpse you could do nothing about it.  Revenge?  If you were capable of revenge, you wouldn’t be dead now.  You screwed up, you went down a path you shouldn’t have.  Baby, you’re not in Kansas anymore, you’re in the zone from hell.

    In those days, if it was out there, it was going to kill you. 

    In Ultima Online, the arrows shot by player-killers would endlessly circle the trees like heat seeking missiles zeroing in on your back.

     For Asheron’s Call, I have two words; Ash Gromnie.  When you were feeling good about your new metal armor, the Ash Gromnies were there to take you down a peg or two and show you why lighting and metal don’t mix well.  (We should all pretend that death during the rabbit mating season never happened).

     Everquest was a series of painful deaths from the very beginning.  Fippy Darkpaw was waiting, just itching to kill you.  Then, just when you were good enough to take your revenge, you knew it was time to head to Blackburrow.  If somehow you managed to beat the train, excuse me, I mean TRAIN, out of Blackburrow, then you ran right into the jaws of that rabid grizzly. Yah, that’s going to leave a mark; hurts, don’t it?

     Then over the years, deaths in MMORPGs started to change.  New games came out and patches were added to old ones.  There was a shift to make the games easier.  When you died, you no longer dropped any loot.  After dying a handful of times in a row, it stopped affecting your play.  At the end of a hard day, you could log off, smug in knowing that when you woke up in the morning, your avatar would be as good as new.

    At some point, it went from Death Rides a Pale Horse, to Don’t Fear the Reaper.  Death traded his pale horse in for a My Pretty Pony TM; that nice, sky-blue one.  Yeah, you know which pony I am talking about.  

     Death became a way to travel faster.  Death became useful and almost enjoyable.  What was the highest area you could leap from?  When that club came and smacked you in the face, how far would your body get thrown from the impact?  Dying became a form of recreation. 

    For Ashes of Creation it sounds like death is going to be a sting of experience somewhere between between a Bullhorn Acacia Ant and a Arizona Bark Scorpion.

    What do I want on my gravestone?

    Hopefully I won't want to die in Ashes of Creation, and that’s how it should be.


  • I think the Vitae system in Asheron's Call was awesome, you not only dropped items but your stats took a 5% hit for each death up to a forty percent reduction. You worked it off by gaining experience killing mobs etc. Even if you were level capped you were still subject to Vitae. Simple and fair to all. Consequences for failure and consequences for being silly. Vitae did not apply in PVP
  • Sozia said:

    What do I want on my gravestone?

    Hopefully I won't want to die in Ashes of Creation, and that’s how it should be.


    Great post mate!

    This is how I feel exactly!
  • It sounds like the penalty in AoC is not so much a "remove progress" as it is a "stall progress".  This leaves open the chance to partake in deadly activities when the need arises, and still a need to avoid death, but without thinking "oh sorry guildies, If I die one more time I'll be useless at the siege!"
  • It sounds like the penalty in AoC is not so much a "remove progress" as it is a "stall progress".  This leaves open the chance to partake in deadly activities when the need arises, and still a need to avoid death, but without thinking "oh sorry guildies, If I die one more time I'll be useless at the siege!"
    I agree in spirit, but if too many deaths result in low durability on gear that can only be repaired by a long trek back to the node's blacksmith (say taken out of battle for 20-30 minutes) or even loss of gear items that are too badly damaged (my personal favorite), then fear of failure is very real.

    To increase the tension further, loss of gear durability could be slightly randomised to make it even less certain how many wipes the group can suffer before people start having 0% gear bonus, or losing gear entirely.
  • lexmax said:
    It sounds like the penalty in AoC is not so much a "remove progress" as it is a "stall progress".  This leaves open the chance to partake in deadly activities when the need arises, and still a need to avoid death, but without thinking "oh sorry guildies, If I die one more time I'll be useless at the siege!"
    I agree in spirit, but if too many deaths result in low durability on gear that can only be repaired by a long trek back to the node's blacksmith (say taken out of battle for 20-30 minutes) or even loss of gear items that are too badly damaged (my personal favorite), then fear of failure is very real.

    To increase the tension further, loss of gear durability could be slightly randomised to make it even less certain how many wipes the group can suffer before people start having 0% gear bonus, or losing gear entirely.

    Yeah any mechanics that make it scary and make combat feel more tense and exciting are a good thing!

    I used to play EVE a lot and the pvp in that is so intense because the fear of loss is real! You lose your ship it's gone forever and all the modules installed too. You get podded and your super expensive implants are gone too!

    Millions of ISK gone forever...

    But the exhilaration...


  • Does death have to be simply 'die and then other stuff happens'? Why not mix things up before the dying part?

    Can you make death scary and time-consuming and meaningful, but include a 'surrender' mechanic that's potentially usable by anyone (or anyone under a certain percentage health)? It could, perhaps, mean that a PKer intent on griefing a specific player cannot kill the character if that character is marked as a non-combatant and has also surrendered (maybe giving up money/gear in the process, and with appropriate checks so that surrendering cannot be abused as a mechanic). It, perhaps, gives the limited-time players a way to carry on with their plans for their only available play-time that week (while applying some sort of penalty for such 'cowardly' behaviour on the character's part, but a penalty, nevertheless, which is less than death). There's still the potential for problems, obviously, but I don't know if any MMO has the option to surrender in a fight and I think it would be a cool option if done well.

    Can you make it possible to withdraw from combat, so you can (potentially, if you are clever/smart/quick enough) run away once you can see you are outmatched? For animals, perhaps you'd have to know something about them to know the best way to escape- maybe you'd need to try to run uphill, or downhill, or across water, or away from water. Maybe you could equip bags of dust/smoke bombs to help in your escape. Your gear might get a little damaged from the fight, but no other penalty (except as regards your character's dignity).
  • I have a strong feeling that I must be part of this discussion 
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