Bards

ArchivedUser

Any idea about if the bard is going to be able to provide some kind of fighting or are they going to be left to always group.


Yes I know a support class is called a support class but I find that in games that progress faster for some players who rush to the end that other classes will be left out if they are unable to at least solo even con mobs.

I would suggest having some kind of task system in place to help support classes or classes that are best in group the option to do things solo if they should not be able to find a group.


What I'm trying to say is please make it so each class has a viable option to kill something. This doesn't mean support classes should out shine a dps class with a staff or lute or harp. It doesn't mean they should be able to cast down monsters better then a mage.

Just allow them some kind of utility so they are not buff bots or speed bots.

Thank you
- Sysk

ArchivedUser

Most games and I believe this one will not be different gives support classes DPS abilities also.  I've not played a bard or healer yet that could not fight in some way.  Bards can usually switch out and use weapons and in some cases their instruments or songs become a weapon. 
Both bards and healers I have always found to be able to solo content also.

ArchivedUser

CylverRayne said:

Most games and I believe this one will not be different gives support classes DPS abilities also.  I've not played a bard or healer yet that could not fight in some way.  Bards can usually switch out and use weapons and in some cases their instruments or songs become a weapon. 
Both bards and healers I have always found to be able to solo content also.

I understand this and have used this as well when times are hard. My whole problem is that in order to spec to be able to do some type of dps you have to make yourself ungroup worthy in the eyes of the so called elites. 

So it is a double bladed sword where you can spec to fight and solo or you spec to be a bot or group player. There is never a happy medium in the class choices.

Problem with Jack of All Trades classes is that you get few points to splurge on things that will help you down one path or the other.

ArchivedUser

syskaru said:

Any idea about if the bard is going to be able to provide some kind of fighting or are they going to be left to always group.


Yes I know a support class is called a support class but I find that in games that progress faster for some players who rush to the end that other classes will be left out if they are unable to at least solo even con mobs.

I would suggest having some kind of task system in place to help support classes or classes that are best in group the option to do things solo if they should not be able to find a group.


What I'm trying to say is please make it so each class has a viable option to kill something. This doesn't mean support classes should out shine a dps class with a staff or lute or harp. It doesn't mean they should be able to cast down monsters better then a mage.

Just allow them some kind of utility so they are not buff bots or speed bots.

Thank you
- Sysk

In the streams, they've said bard will not be buffbots. They will have other roles like damage dealing, so don't fret! You'll be effective on your own and not a support class.

ArchivedUser

I played in a game called Allods Online for a long time. The bards in that game went through many iterations including being able to stack antihealing debuffs, boost damage of team mates, increase team mates speed, shield their group and apply debuffs to enemies including ticking dmg. I believe none of these are too out of the box but in AoC will be nice to see the utility bards bring to the table and how much it will differ from bards of the past.

ArchivedUser

I think realistically though, solo dps in comparison might take a hit. To balance the multiplier effect in a group. If you're talking about enough damage and defence to take on content solo, that shouldn't be a problem. If you're talking about personal damage in comparison with other classes, it will likely be lower. 

I've found that in general, classes with mezzes tend to be able to do things that no other classes can. Even if they do normal things a little slower. 

ArchivedUser

AutumnWillow said:

I think realistically though, solo dps in comparison might take a hit. To balance the multiplier effect in a group. If you're talking about enough damage and defence to take on content solo, that shouldn't be a problem. If you're talking about personal damage in comparison with other classes, it will likely be lower. 

I've found that in general, classes with mezzes tend to be able to do things that no other classes can. Even if they do normal things a little slower. 

I am not to worried about the dps taking a hit it should however you do not want to nerf the class into the ground via it being support.

The problem I run into is if you make a class has single utility it forces it into one place. Either Speed and CC or and in groupable class.

Make it have a little bit of both and not have to choose either to be played in a group or solo.

I'm not saying they should be able to kill dps classes but perhaps be able to at least get away or fight and flight.

Does this make sense?

ArchivedUser

I feel like bards in this game are probably gonna have slightly lower damage than a DPS class. But they might not have as much escapes but great utility. Having decent damage and nice utility can be a dangerous combo in group or solo play.

ArchivedUser

I thought about this as well and I believe that you will have the ability to fight or else no one would want to be a bard at the start of the game. You could end up picking a bard coming late into the game and spend hours till you realize you couldn't really do any damage. would be a killer.

Now what I'm hoping is that your songs do damage as well as personal buffs. I think a really cool thing would be to customize a bards instrument, with different types of metal or crystals. These upgrades to the bard weapon could change a lot of things, like if your sub class were to be a tank on a bard, your guitar (just for instance) could be made of a dull metal which made a shield as well, OR it's inlay-ed with crystals making a screeching attack that gets sent out as a wave from a weapon. The material itself could of come from gold in a mountain that had certain properties giving the different qualities pertaining to slight buffs (+5% cold resist) because the gold that was used to form with weapon (guitar) was found in a deep frozen chasm. 

okay, I'll stop now.

ArchivedUser

I would think that if you really wanted to spend the majority of your time soloing as a bard, you can always go Bard/Fighter or Bard/Tank - assuming it's the up close and personal combat that is concerning you.  But we know so little about the classes yet and how they mix, I bet there are a lot of Bard combos that allow you a variety of solo game play styles. 

ArchivedUser

As long as players have a choice how to build their bards (offensive, defensive, team focused, solo focused, anything in between) I'll be more than happy.  I guess that's where the secondary class system comes in.

ArchivedUser

I want to have the class have the option of being able to solo instead of being a bot. I can understand making the dps output less but make it so that it can play a song to increase damage output of others. It would make it better for groups but not take away massive amounts of dps from the bard.


The problem we have these days is that games have the no class system where you either play the correct class to solo or your a gimp or you dont get a group.

Then on the other hand you get the holy trinity such as Tank Healer Caster. With this setup you do not really have the hybrids. The hybrids can be a tank or healer via the light tank with dual weapons would not be a true tank but a hybrid tank. Then you have a healer where you could be a friar type where you are a light tank healer. Or perhaps a caster that is a fighter such as a monk where you can use styles and also magic.

The whole reason I was making this write up was so that we do not get stuck with people not rolling a class that is forced into a group or it wont be play.

ArchivedUser

You have to admit, it's nice when your wanted for groups though! I would have issues as a rogue getting parties because I wasn't AOE. Then when I used my tank everyone wanted me because tanks were rare and needed for group zones

ArchivedUser

syskaru said:

I want to have the class have the option of being able to solo instead of being a bot. I can understand making the dps output less but make it so that it can play a song to increase damage output of others. It would make it better for groups but not take away massive amounts of dps from the bard.


The problem we have these days is that games have the no class system where you either play the correct class to solo or your a gimp or you dont get a group.

Then on the other hand you get the holy trinity such as Tank Healer Caster. With this setup you do not really have the hybrids. The hybrids can be a tank or healer via the light tank with dual weapons would not be a true tank but a hybrid tank. Then you have a healer where you could be a friar type where you are a light tank healer. Or perhaps a caster that is a fighter such as a monk where you can use styles and also magic.

The whole reason I was making this write up was so that we do not get stuck with people not rolling a class that is forced into a group or it wont be play.

It's been specifically mentioned by the devs that support classes won't just be buff/heal bots. 

But I guess that was in the context of gameplay. At the very worst, you'll solo a little slower than other classes. 

I guess the bard is in a unique spot because it's meant to be a force multiplier and group inspirer.

So I'd personally rather the devs get the grouping portion right and making bards a welcome addition to groups rather than the solo portion. If they can balance both?

All the better. But if one playstyle is at the expense of the other, I'd personally prefer more emphasis on grouping even though I expect to spend quite a bit of time soloing. 

ArchivedUser

AutumnWillow said:

syskaru said:

I want to have the class have the option of being able to solo instead of being a bot. I can understand making the dps output less but make it so that it can play a song to increase damage output of others. It would make it better for groups but not take away massive amounts of dps from the bard.


The problem we have these days is that games have the no class system where you either play the correct class to solo or your a gimp or you dont get a group.

Then on the other hand you get the holy trinity such as Tank Healer Caster. With this setup you do not really have the hybrids. The hybrids can be a tank or healer via the light tank with dual weapons would not be a true tank but a hybrid tank. Then you have a healer where you could be a friar type where you are a light tank healer. Or perhaps a caster that is a fighter such as a monk where you can use styles and also magic.

The whole reason I was making this write up was so that we do not get stuck with people not rolling a class that is forced into a group or it wont be play.

It's been specifically mentioned by the devs that support classes won't just be buff/heal bots. 

But I guess that was in the context of gameplay. At the very worst, you'll solo a little slower than other classes. 

I guess the bard is in a unique spot because it's meant to be a force multiplier and group inspirer.

So I'd personally rather the devs get the grouping portion right and making bards a welcome addition to groups rather than the solo portion. If they can balance both?

All the better. But if one playstyle is at the expense of the other, I'd personally prefer more emphasis on grouping even though I expect to spend quite a bit of time soloing. 

I imagine the Bard like the swordsinger and bladedancer from L2, completely separate from the Bishop. I really hope they don't solo too well just for the sake of group parties. Games like this are suppose to encourage players to work together.

I imagine the bard is going to be another essential piece to the party just like the tank and the healer. The DDs will always be interchangeable, but the bard is going to be a party "make-or-break" piece.

And if it was my option i would do just that. I would want the Bard a slow leveler but with great rewards. This is how I felt when I played tank. Solo was a nightmare, but come level 98... I was a rarity. My class was sought after because nobody was willing to go through the pain of leveling. Like I said, classes like that can be slow, they just need the feeling of reward for it. It makes it better than being a fast leveler IMO

ArchivedUser

WinterAssassin said:

AutumnWillow said:

syskaru said:

I want to have the class have the option of being able to solo instead of being a bot. I can understand making the dps output less but make it so that it can play a song to increase damage output of others. It would make it better for groups but not take away massive amounts of dps from the bard.


The problem we have these days is that games have the no class system where you either play the correct class to solo or your a gimp or you dont get a group.

Then on the other hand you get the holy trinity such as Tank Healer Caster. With this setup you do not really have the hybrids. The hybrids can be a tank or healer via the light tank with dual weapons would not be a true tank but a hybrid tank. Then you have a healer where you could be a friar type where you are a light tank healer. Or perhaps a caster that is a fighter such as a monk where you can use styles and also magic.

The whole reason I was making this write up was so that we do not get stuck with people not rolling a class that is forced into a group or it wont be play.

It's been specifically mentioned by the devs that support classes won't just be buff/heal bots. 

But I guess that was in the context of gameplay. At the very worst, you'll solo a little slower than other classes. 

I guess the bard is in a unique spot because it's meant to be a force multiplier and group inspirer.

So I'd personally rather the devs get the grouping portion right and making bards a welcome addition to groups rather than the solo portion. If they can balance both?

All the better. But if one playstyle is at the expense of the other, I'd personally prefer more emphasis on grouping even though I expect to spend quite a bit of time soloing. 

I imagine the Bard like the swordsinger and bladedancer from L2, completely separate from the Bishop. I really hope they don't solo too well just for the sake of group parties. Games like this are suppose to encourage players to work together.

I imagine the bard is going to be another essential piece to the party just like the tank and the healer. The DDs will always be interchangeable, but the bard is going to be a party "make-or-break" piece.

And if it was my option i would do just that. I would want the Bard a slow leveler but with great rewards. This is how I felt when I played tank. Solo was a nightmare, but come level 98... I was a rarity. My class was sought after because nobody was willing to go through the pain of leveling. Like I said, classes like that can be slow, they just need the feeling of reward for it. It makes it better than being a fast leveler IMO

Class rarity plays a small role in this I guess. Haha, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't feel good being sought after by teams.

Being a make or break piece/lynch pin class would be a little too much imo. I'd settle for a class that definitely improves the performance of the teams and make the other party members feel powerful, whether it's through regenerating mana, more damage, attack speed increase, lowered cool downs etc. 

As long as they make the primary role of group buffing (force multiplier)  rewarding, I'd be more than pleased.

ArchivedUser

At this point it's all hear say so until we see some stuff in stone it's going to be hit or miss or guess and wish. 

ArchivedUser

It would be amazing if the Minstrel (Bard/Bard) was ALL support with almost ZERO DPS abilities outside auto attacking.  This would mean they augment the group so much their lack of DPS is made up for by their supporting songs.  

I would play a Minstrel if they were like this.  I don't like causing, absorbing, or healing damage, but I want to help those that do.  

ArchivedUser

Zero DPS is too much but instead of having direct damage abilities they could have different types of melodies/songs etc. that allow them to charm/control the target and force them to attack others. I would be really dissapointed if the bard classes could shoot out music notes by plucking harph strings or the like.

ArchivedUser

You could probably spec out that way if thats the playstyle yu want.

ArchivedUser

I like bards in D&D (3.5). They are sort of a jack of all trades, master of none. Yes, they sing (or perform, many bards are excellent dancers and there are whole classes around this), but they are also diplomats, thieves, healers, spies, spellcasters, swordmasters, you name it. They are actors who meld into other roles. And you can stay as a jack of all trades or you can specialize - which is where the sub classes come in with this game. Even the names suggest this "trickster" "songcaller" "soulweaver". Bards in D&D can never quite fully fill the role of the mage or the cleric but they make a pretty good substitute in a pinch. I really hope this is the AoC vision of bard, as opposed to something that throws magical music at things - which gets old after a while.

ArchivedUser

Bards will be notorious for playing songs in taverns and just hanging out   

ArchivedUser

zazukeys said:

Bards will be notorious for playing songs in taverns and just hanging out   

Getting drunk on the customers dime I hope. 

ArchivedUser

I'm looking at bard specifically so I can be a pure support class

Hopefully class combos like bard/bard (Minstrel) or bard/cleric (Soul Weaver) give us the option to sacrifice dps and solo ability for good buffs / debuffs

ArchivedUser

The best "bard" class i have ever seen was in AION. 
It is called Chanter, and was a subclass of the priest. Melee, chainmail, staff wielding, buff machine with enough dmg to go as support melee ;D.
Totally gonna recreate it in Ashes with the Soulweaver.

ArchivedUser

Arclyte said:

I'm looking at bard specifically so I can be a pure support class

Hopefully class combos like bard/bard (Minstrel) or bard/cleric (Soul Weaver) give us the option to sacrifice dps and solo ability for good buffs / debuffs

I'm very excited for summoner/bard. I'm hoping enchanter is a buffer/cc class.

ArchivedUser

Althor said:

I'm very excited for summoner/bard. I'm hoping enchanter is a buffer/cc class.

It would be interesting if he could summon monsters to cast AoE buffs. Kind of like an extension cord. He would stand in the ranged camp and buff there, while he summons something in the melee camp and it would replicate his buff there. ;D

ArchivedUser

Damokles said:

Althor said:

I'm very excited for summoner/bard. I'm hoping enchanter is a buffer/cc class.

It would be interesting if he could summon monsters to cast AoE buffs. Kind of like an extension cord. He would stand in the ranged camp and buff there, while he summons something in the melee camp and it would replicate his buff there. ;D

I was thinking of having flying instruments paying and shipping around to different areas giving buffs in their vicinity. 

They could just blast and split the bell to cc enemies.

ArchivedUser

I dont think we will get to do much with instruments, concerning our abilities. 
We have not seen any props of music instruments. So i would'nt count on the abilities having to do much with music instruments.(Maybe an animation here and there ;D) 
"For example a sword slash with a gladiatorial performance attack inspires nearby friends with bonus critical multiplier for 8-10 seconds."
I think it will revolve more around buffing your attacks and then, after hitting them, you buff the party or something around that line.
"Doesn't have to play musical instruments / lute" They also talked about the idea of introducing Poetry or Dance as a buff medium, which sounds pretty cool.